- 479
- 156
Ah, I see. That makes sense, thank you for clearing that up.
Ah, I see. I guess since I don't know the ins and outs of ED so well, I didn't quite know how people use it, but got it.
Safe!
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Super Revision Bros (4-A proposals, Grand Star key, and two calculations)
- Thread starter Omnificence
- Start date
- 14,465
- 11,510
"And they were transported inside the box", kinda confirms he has teleportation powers, additionally, the fact that all of this takes place in a toy box is kinda...
And you say suddenly, but, all that wacky shit is down a hole, from an outside view, it'd just look a toy garden with walls, which is precisely what we see?
Disagree, not only does it explicitly note he transported them with the flash, which is the literal last thing you want to be said, but they don't say he made it either way. The very fact it all takes place in a weird toy box is a complication in and of itself.
They LITERALLY say the latter....
This is the epitome of extrapolation, that's arriving at the utter extreme off next to no evidence...
I appreciate the scans and attempts, but this doesn't actually tell us if he created it, all it tells us is that he has transportation powers, which is the last thing you want to be confirmed, and life manip apparently.
Like I can not stress enough, we need an actual statement here, especially here given we now know he has teleportation en masse, and the starry sky in and of itself in this specific case is eh anyway. Tbh I think you'd just be better off trying to find a new one.
- 14,465
- 11,510
Magic and also there's like a dozen feats on that level including physical ones like Demise turning mountains into black obsidian stains or ripping a massive fissure through the earth in what was described as an instant from that same cast (As in, it's corroborated and isn't just a one off high af feat, if it was I wouldn't have went with it). I plan to make Zelda less reliant on funny weather feats given they have random explosion or physical feats too that are in the same ballpark, which is obviously what we want, less hoops to jump through to get it scaling. But, even so, Hylia's cloud feat was done via her magic power, and in the context of Zelda they have a UES (kinda) for flat magic stuff, we're told numerous times that feats like that occur solely under one's magical power and output (good example is Vaati
- 7,375
- 13,485
These are essentially my thoughts as well. Chariot and Armor make good sense here.
- 2,294
- 1,463
- Thread starter
- #85
Well, everything Emile and Armor said about my cloud calculation have good points, and I personally don't mind having only Bowser getting 4-A via Creation or Environmental Destruction, but I still don't see the reason why we can't have a 3-C Grand Star key unless someone can enlighten me.
What's your vote so far?
- 6,060
- 1,085
Don't really have time to reply to the rest of this so I'm only going to weigh in on these.
I don't mean to be rude but just look at it this hardly qualifies as a sky much less a starry one. Unless there is other evidence to suggest the pocket dimension possesses massive a cosmological structure I don't think this should be treated as anything above island level.
The stars becoming visible is not proof of any destruction or creation occurring. Making the night sky disappear is not grounds for 4-A without stronger evidence backing it.
Basically the same with both of these so I'm not going to bother replying to both individually, but as other have said, without explicit proof that they created these spaces it shouldn't be counted as a creation feat in general.
TL;DR I am mostly in agreement with Armor and Chariot
- 13,493
- 3,782
Isn't this just the storybook artstyle of the game? You can check other assets of the game to find they are also toy/clay-like in appearance.
- 479
- 156
I do want to get back to you on this, but I'm kind of busy this week and do want to try to get a full understanding of where the idea this feat is a thing came from. I've reviewed the storymode and think I understand where it actually came from now, but do want to just go over some stuff to make sure I have everything downpat. Sorry for the wait, but thought I'd let you know.
- 14,465
- 11,510
im a bit extrapolated out from a diff thread sorry
Dust_Collector
They/Them- 7,188
- 7,244
Well the artstyle for the game is specifically explained to be Bowser cursing the island to turn it into a story book. Like those stars could be real but they could also be just painted onto the pages of the book as part of Bowser turning it into a book.
Last edited:
- 2,294
- 1,463
- Thread starter
- #91
Now that you mention it, can we give Multi-Stellar lifting strength via any power with this feat? Is there some other tier we could place Exor at for the feat he displayed if not 4-A?
- 479
- 156
So, as it turns out, I was maybe wrong on the reasoning behind why this feat is a thing. Apparently, in this blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment in between the intro cutscene and gameplay, we actually see the False Millennium Star create a hole! To retread old ground, this is the same hole that they use star lifts (which he also created) to get to other locations with, and of course the same hole you fight him in. Since this hole contains that starry area consistently, with the destination being the only thing that changes, it’s probably safe to say this is the hole’s interior, so what we see him create on-screen (as in it sure wasn’t there before he did that). Granted, I’m aware that if we saw him create something and loads of stars started appearing, that would be way more convincing than just seeing him bash into the floor and leave what’s basically a crater, but… perhaps this has some more merit to it? (I’m really out here arguing “Multi-Solar System level (Made a hole in the ground)”...)
As for the idea that they’re real stars, I guess going off the game alone, the fact that a battle within this area is referred to as Stardust Battle, with a full-on star aesthetic to it, helps the cause, but I appreciate that’s kind of vague. Real stars do appear in the game with a similar appearance, however, so I think there is merit to the idea that these were intended to be stars. For any direct statements, I have noticed there’s a Prima Guide and a Shogakukan Guide for Mario Party 3 (both publishers do tend to give extra lore in their guides), but those don’t seem to be available online, nor do I own either…
To not entirely abandon the prior the previous arguments though, I’ll go over some stuff you said:
As for it taking place in a toy box, I don’t see the contention here when it comes to the Mario series, which has explored crazy sorts of concepts like this. Big Boo’s Haunt is a world accessed through acage (what do you mean it’s a carousel?) in Super Mario 64 prior to Mario Party 3 (and I don’t think the metal bars indicate it’s a shrunk down world in a cage considering they only go so high), and later games also explore a similar concept (And so that that’s not just an empty claim, let’s say the bottle in Noki Bay or the Purple Mystery Boxes in 3D Land and 3D World, which can then have entire night skies in them, with 3D Land’s manual section 5-8 addressing you are inside them, alongside the animation just showing you that, considering you exit it after).
I don’t think this world pre-existed, either, since it just seems to be a chest to store a board game and a dice. Having a whole world in there, complete with an accessible/explorable castle, sounds kind of counterintuitive and would get in the way of things you’d want to store in it… It does seem that board game is what the cast wanted to play, rather than a full on walkable boards that Mario Party 1 and 2 established as the norm, for some reason, with them even seeming pretty lost and confused on being teleported inside, furthering the idea that this wasn’t how the box usually is, or at least they weren’t planning on hopping in, at which point, why would the chest have a whole world in it if that wasn’t their intention? So, sure, they don’t explicitly say he created it, but it was context that led me to this conclusion (show don’t tell narrative, I guess).
Hopefully this response has some better arguments than last time, but if not, I at least gave it a go, I suppose, considering how little context I had to go off of from the initial post here! And sorry for the wait!
As for the idea that they’re real stars, I guess going off the game alone, the fact that a battle within this area is referred to as Stardust Battle, with a full-on star aesthetic to it, helps the cause, but I appreciate that’s kind of vague. Real stars do appear in the game with a similar appearance, however, so I think there is merit to the idea that these were intended to be stars. For any direct statements, I have noticed there’s a Prima Guide and a Shogakukan Guide for Mario Party 3 (both publishers do tend to give extra lore in their guides), but those don’t seem to be available online, nor do I own either…
To not entirely abandon the prior the previous arguments though, I’ll go over some stuff you said:
Whilst sure, this confirms FMS has teleportation powers, I don’t think it necessarily contradicts the idea he could have created the world. You can create a world and then teleport to it to access it. Sure, I guess at this point whether he made the world or not doesn’t matter as much due to the new argument I’ve come across, but I thought it helps to consider that.
As for it taking place in a toy box, I don’t see the contention here when it comes to the Mario series, which has explored crazy sorts of concepts like this. Big Boo’s Haunt is a world accessed through a
I don’t think this world pre-existed, either, since it just seems to be a chest to store a board game and a dice. Having a whole world in there, complete with an accessible/explorable castle, sounds kind of counterintuitive and would get in the way of things you’d want to store in it… It does seem that board game is what the cast wanted to play, rather than a full on walkable boards that Mario Party 1 and 2 established as the norm, for some reason, with them even seeming pretty lost and confused on being teleported inside, furthering the idea that this wasn’t how the box usually is, or at least they weren’t planning on hopping in, at which point, why would the chest have a whole world in it if that wasn’t their intention? So, sure, they don’t explicitly say he created it, but it was context that led me to this conclusion (show don’t tell narrative, I guess).
Yeah, I was just saying this to show he had control over this world enough to even bring things to life in it, but it’s maybe a bit of a weird point.
I feel like you misunderstood what I was saying here, but I see what you were trying to say. Also tehepero on the extrapolation, I was trying to figure out a way to explain something.
Hopefully this response has some better arguments than last time, but if not, I at least gave it a go, I suppose, considering how little context I had to go off of from the initial post here! And sorry for the wait!
- 479
- 156
How are we interpreting what Exor did? Is he dimming the stars' ability to shine? Or is it like Darkness Manipulation? I guess whatever the case, it's Multi-Stellar range, no?
- 14,465
- 11,510
Ill go over that later, some good, some bad.
- 2,294
- 1,463
- Thread starter
- #95
Well, if he is, maybe I or someone else could calculate it, but I'm just wondering what's the most we can get out of it besides Multi-Stellar range and not 4-A AP.
- 4,759
- 4,431
Ok, so..... Since the "Teleportation VS Creation" stuff and Exor´s feat are the only things still being debated here, can the Bowser upgrade be applied?
- 2,294
- 1,463
- Thread starter
- #97
Maybe, but I don't wanna close this thread yet.
- 14,465
- 11,510
I forgor, to reply 
We need to know if he made what was in it, not just the entryway.
Like all this is true, it just doesn't tell us it was there before, or if he himself created it, just that he made the hole to get there.
That's actually the worst possible way to go about it, because said battle has Mario yeeting tiny 0.5m stars at him, the actual battle implies they ain't all that big.
There's a lot of evidence that they're not real either. I'm not saying they aren't btw, it's just vague and ultimately doesn't matter, we need to know he created that space first. From there, we need to figure out what the space even is. If we 100% know he made it, I'd be willing to handwave all the fuckys with how stars are depicted.
idk what that is tho, I'm assuming it's like Nintendo Dream?
The issue is that since we know he has teleportation powers, that becomes the default assumption given we know he has that, but we don't know if he can like, make whole ass nebulae without a statement.
This, still holds true btw, especially if the lands they go to are pre-existing without hard evidence he conjured them.
The 3D game boxes, sure (Maybe? It could be teleportation given you enter boxes inside said boxes, yet exit the initial one instead of the box they just entered?).
But, none of this matters, we're talking about the Millennium Star, and even if Mario has cases to support your side, the opposite is also true.
Which kinda just leaves us at "yeah idk, might be, might not".
In some of your examples above, you've shown that minuscule locations, such as a uh, whatever the **** Big Boo's haunt is (is it actually not a cage? that's messed up and pisses me off), can shrink and store thing or have wacky TARDIS logic, and we see plain as day that Mario and DK retrieve objects from it, that physically can not fit within said box otherwise.
Could be a bag of holding trope, but, I'm confident in saying the dice and game bigger than the box, fitting in the box, ain't a good look for it being just a normal 0.3x0.3m box that was magic'd into being wacky. Especially when stuff like this ain't new, gets shown again like Noki Bay Bottle, and even in Mario Party like 4 (there's a few minigames where they randomly get sucked into boxes and have to fight for their life).
Like I'm not saying it's impossible, atm tho, we have a box that can fit stuff bigger than it, in a verse filled wit items and boxes that can contain suff bigger than it, have whole landscapes inside, can shrink stuff to store, and everything inbetween.
This is what we know.
1. He made a hole.
And against.
1. This hole leads to pre-existing worlds.
2. He has Teleportation, which would explain the former, but also cast doubt on the feat as a whole.
3. Mario has established the concept of pocket storage-like mediums, and objects that run on "bigger within than they appear", including in Mario 64.
4. Mario, and even the Party line of games, have random ass boxes that can shrink stuff down, be entered, or have TARDIS logic, multiple minigames happening within such things, all unrelated to this lad.
5. They can enter such things, when doing so, they shrink down, as seen with Big Boo's haunt and Noki Bay Bottle.
6. The stars in question, are vague, with the battle even focusing on throwing tiny 0.5m stars at him as they fall from the sky, and said background, while having white dots that resemble stars, it's also true said white dots could be the very stars you use in battle, coupled with brighter cartoon stars, this locale itself is a tad vague (tho if proven he made it I'm not gonna be a stickler about this).
I do appreciate actual scans and citations, holy **** do I wish more dudes did that, you're probably one of the most pleasing dudes I've talked with in awhile. Unfortnately, I'm not sold on this, and while not intentional, a lot of your evidence has had the opposite effect.
I say all this, but really, just hand a statement saying he made it, or even just "made the world inside the box", or something akin to that, and I'd say it's fine. Might be best to check the guides, if they have extra lore. Atm, I'm just seeing a very, very, generous "possibly".
And I'm well aware ya'll want to segue this into an upgrade, but if this ends up as just "possibly", it ain't gonna fly as support for an upgrade given the feat itself is unconfirmed and vague.
But did he make what was in it? That's the important part. If he punched down the Castle Wall, and within it was a whole galaxy, would we assume he made that too?
We need to know if he made what was in it, not just the entryway.
Unfortunately, none of this is relevant. At best it'd be "possibly", and a very generous one at that. We still in the issue of we're assuming he did, not knowing if he actually did.
Like all this is true, it just doesn't tell us it was there before, or if he himself created it, just that he made the hole to get there.
Hmm, mixed bag honestly. The hole has the lil white stars, in conjunction with big ass yellow cartoon stars (something evidently not an actual star as shown in the uni cutscene). The lil white stars seem the same as the stars in the uni cutscene, but in the fight white stars fall like comets and ya throw them at him.
There's a lot of evidence that they're not real either. I'm not saying they aren't btw, it's just vague and ultimately doesn't matter, we need to know he created that space first. From there, we need to figure out what the space even is. If we 100% know he made it, I'd be willing to handwave all the fuckys with how stars are depicted.
Prima is probably a bust given it's an older prima guide and they kinda just do like, whatever the **** they want, legit would prefer Nintendo Power given at east that gets fact checked and they usually get handed shit from the VAULT. The latter would be nice tho and might be usable if ya can find it,
This is true, he could have both.
The issue is that since we know he has teleportation powers, that becomes the default assumption given we know he has that, but we don't know if he can like, make whole ass nebulae without a statement.
This, still holds true btw, especially if the lands they go to are pre-existing without hard evidence he conjured them.
Big Boo's haunt is 100% meant to be a shrunk-down world, and even if it wasn't, it'd still be tiny, as we see Mario himself actively shrink in real-time, down to a minuscule size (ike a few mm), ie, while in Big Boo's Haunt, Mario himself is but a few mm tall, as we see him literally get that small while entering while still in the normal world.
The Noki Bay bottle is just ******* weird ngl, but he shrinks there too so either way.
The 3D game boxes, sure (Maybe? It could be teleportation given you enter boxes inside said boxes, yet exit the initial one instead of the box they just entered?).
But, none of this matters, we're talking about the Millennium Star, and even if Mario has cases to support your side, the opposite is also true.
Which kinda just leaves us at "yeah idk, might be, might not".
Mario and DK literally whip out a sign and dice bigger than said box.
Why not? Extra space?
In some of your examples above, you've shown that minuscule locations, such as a uh, whatever the **** Big Boo's haunt is (is it actually not a cage? that's messed up and pisses me off), can shrink and store thing or have wacky TARDIS logic, and we see plain as day that Mario and DK retrieve objects from it, that physically can not fit within said box otherwise.
Could be a bag of holding trope, but, I'm confident in saying the dice and game bigger than the box, fitting in the box, ain't a good look for it being just a normal 0.3x0.3m box that was magic'd into being wacky. Especially when stuff like this ain't new, gets shown again like Noki Bay Bottle, and even in Mario Party like 4 (there's a few minigames where they randomly get sucked into boxes and have to fight for their life).
Like I'm not saying it's impossible, atm tho, we have a box that can fit stuff bigger than it, in a verse filled wit items and boxes that can contain suff bigger than it, have whole landscapes inside, can shrink stuff to store, and everything inbetween.
I mean, see above, but they'd be confused either way given, well they didn't do anything to enter it even if it was like that?
Ngl dog, you've kinda convinced me that it acting like it does, is 100% feasible without him.
This is what we know.
1. He made a hole.
And against.
1. This hole leads to pre-existing worlds.
2. He has Teleportation, which would explain the former, but also cast doubt on the feat as a whole.
3. Mario has established the concept of pocket storage-like mediums, and objects that run on "bigger within than they appear", including in Mario 64.
4. Mario, and even the Party line of games, have random ass boxes that can shrink stuff down, be entered, or have TARDIS logic, multiple minigames happening within such things, all unrelated to this lad.
5. They can enter such things, when doing so, they shrink down, as seen with Big Boo's haunt and Noki Bay Bottle.
6. The stars in question, are vague, with the battle even focusing on throwing tiny 0.5m stars at him as they fall from the sky, and said background, while having white dots that resemble stars, it's also true said white dots could be the very stars you use in battle, coupled with brighter cartoon stars, this locale itself is a tad vague (tho if proven he made it I'm not gonna be a stickler about this).
That's just Life Manip/RW.
It does, but, probably not what you were aiming for.
I do appreciate actual scans and citations, holy **** do I wish more dudes did that, you're probably one of the most pleasing dudes I've talked with in awhile. Unfortnately, I'm not sold on this, and while not intentional, a lot of your evidence has had the opposite effect.
I say all this, but really, just hand a statement saying he made it, or even just "made the world inside the box", or something akin to that, and I'd say it's fine. Might be best to check the guides, if they have extra lore. Atm, I'm just seeing a very, very, generous "possibly".
And I'm well aware ya'll want to segue this into an upgrade, but if this ends up as just "possibly", it ain't gonna fly as support for an upgrade given the feat itself is unconfirmed and vague.
- 479
- 156
It's fine!I forgor, to reply
Thank you! And yeah, that’s fair. You’ve provided a lot of good counters, some I didn’t actually consider, and it is hard to get far when it’s mostly going off interpretations and assumptions. I think I’ve run the English version of the game dry, but… I actually should look into the Japanese version! Fortunately, I’ve actually been studying Japanese for almost a decade, so I can translate what they’re saying and surprisingly, it actually delivered!
I translated the Japanese version of the opening, but I think what stand out most here is:
と、そのとき！ミレニアムスターからつよいひかりがはなたれました！そして--- ---
なんと、マリオたちのせかいがオモチャのせかいになってしまいました。
Which essentially says that the Millennium Star starts emitting a strong light and then the world is transformed into a toy world. オモチャ being alternate way of spelling おもちゃ (omocha), meaning toy (like think of Omochao), and せかい being a word that works very similarly to the English word “world”. And then I’ve watched enough Ojamajo Doremi to know the なる verb (of which なってしまいました is a conjugation of) means to turn into/transform into/become. This is backed up by the story section of the manual, which also says:
マリオたちが言い争いをしていると、突然ミレニアムスターが光りはじめました！するとどうでしょう！
マリオたちの世界はおもちゃの世界になってしまいました！
世界 is just the kanji form of せかい (the game itself using hiragana script instead since that’s easier for kids to read, albeit makes it a bit harder to translate!). There does seem to be a link between the Millennium Star shining and the world transforming, if there was any doubt there, since the phrase するとどうでしょう can be used by magicians when performing magic tricks (since an example given is マジシャン:この帽子の中に水を入れます。するとどうでしょう、鳩が現れました
️, spoken by a magician who is talking about if they pour water into a hat, just like that, doves will come out). I’m not saying this is a magic trick here, but it seems to tie into this idea of cause-and-effect.The game’s Japanese website also says about this, with:
そしてミレニアムスターが光りはじめると、マリオの世界はおもちゃの世界になってしまったのです！
The と after the verb はじめる (to start, as in he’s starting to shine) also created a cause and effect relationship between the light and the world transforming. You could also read it as “And at the glow of the Millennium star, Mario world was turned into toy world”, generally the grammatical idea here is “When X, Y”.
This also matches with the visuals of the game, where in the ending (also translated), the True Millennium Star says that they will transform the world back to how it was and they sprinkles stardust over the world, rather than the player, and we visually see the world return to normal, the castle shining as if in response to this, which makes more sense with what we’re seeing that merely teleporting a character back to another world. The line in question is:
では、オモチャになったせかいをもとどおりにしてあげましゅ！！
Where they claim this オモチャになったせかい (world that’s been turned into a toy) will be given (あげましゅ being a babified way of saying あげます, to give, since they’re a newborn and all) its もとどおる (original state).
As for the scope of this world, it’s shown to have stars beyond just this weird location we’ve been talking about which has already been quite dubious. Most notably, Spiny Desert is noted to have a sun (which should work like a star, since it exudes heat) in both English and Japanese. We also see a starry night sky in the minigames The Beat Goes On and Swing n Swipe, as well as Snowball Summit (made clearer in its modern version). The latter also features an Aurora Borealis, which should verify these are stars considering auroras are caused by solar activity. We also see a sun in End of the Line, which shines down in the ending, something we also see in the modern versions of Picking Panic and Chip-Shot Challenge. Rainbows, which need a source of light to form (typically the sun), can also be seen in Aces High and Mario’s Puzzle Party, alongside an awful rainbow in an awful sky in Awful Tower, further showing the stars working as they should. And lastly, Cosmic Coaster takes place in outer space, complete with a starry background and asteroids (plus the name is befitting), showing even this toy world has space.
So, it seems I was wrong about him creating the toy world from scratch (which I’m fine with, it was neat to learn this and actually get statements finally!), and rather it seems he transformed the entire world, which I’m pretty sure still works with the idea of what the thread wanted (having an ability that allows them to perform feats on a Mutli-Solar System/4-A scale). I don’t think it refers to just the planet when it says マリオたちの世界 (マリオ being Mario and たち basically making it “Mario and co”/”Mario and friends”/’Mario’s party”, and の being a possessive particle like “Mario’s”), as they do say about Mario’s planet explicitly too, using the term 住み星 instead (the planet they live on), not to mention all the stars we see in this world that I went over. I guess you could try to argue a universal range for this since the universe is relevant to the plot and it would also work with the term 世界, but that might start falling back into interpretation territory (especially since the explicit term for universe is うちゅう/宇宙, which they do use too in this game) and don’t want to get greedy and aim for beyond what the CRT set out to do, but guess I should point that out.
Hopefully actually having something concrete will help here! Sorry for taking so long to get back though, especially since it’s being posted after the TTYD remake came out which you’d probably rather play that deepdive into the plot of some ancient party game, but hopefully it will be a breath of fresh air to get direct statements at least…
Last edited:
- 14,465
- 11,510
Give the actual full translation too
Edit 2: A handful of links busted.
Edit 2: A handful of links busted.
- 2,236
- 1,239
I overlooked this when sending my first message in this thread, but I agree that it's ambiguous whether or not the Fake Millennium Star created the starry sky. At least it looks like the Fake Millennium Star has his own pocket realm.
- 479
- 156
Sure, can you tell me which links?
Last edited:
- 14,465
- 11,510
Like, literally everyone after "as for the scope"
- 479
- 156
Ah, okay. I see what you mean!
The imgur links should have the full translation (like all the opening dialogue, all the ending dialogue, and the entire story sections of website and manual), unless you were referring to something else?
As for all the star stuff, here’s a compilation: https://lucky-emile.fandom.com/wiki/Stars_in_Mario_Party_3
The imgur links should have the full translation (like all the opening dialogue, all the ending dialogue, and the entire story sections of website and manual), unless you were referring to something else?
As for all the star stuff, here’s a compilation: https://lucky-emile.fandom.com/wiki/Stars_in_Mario_Party_3
- 2,294
- 1,463
- Thread starter
- #105
Bump?
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
