Undertale Speed downgrade in general

[LordXcano]

Relativistic+ stat right now is based on the sunlight dodging thing, right? I know the lightning thing is there but that isn't relativistic at uh all.

Well, I think sunlight should be held to the standards of a laser dodging feat. After all, this is a magic sun that exists inside of a magical mountain.

Now, having watched a battle with Knight Knight and read all the text in the battle on the wiki, I can say there's nothing suggesting that its an actual sun or real sunlight. Literally nothing. All we have is it looks like the sun.

The light from it behaves nothing like real light either. It goes around in circles in little pellets about the speed of Madjick's magic. Hell, the rain summoned by the Moon in the same fight in comparable in speed. There's clearly something wrong here.

I know there's the argument that if the light behaved more realistically you wouldn't have been able to dodge it, but Toby really could've just had straight lines come towards you. Yeah, it wouldn't be omnipresent light like it would IRL but it'd be a lot more believable.

If just looking like the sun is justification enough to bump a verse up to Relativistic+, then I suggest we also bump basically every S-Class in OPM to Relativistic+ because Genos dodged laser beams explicitly referred to as "light" and were even diffused in smoke. That's way more evidence than what's going for Undertale being bumped to Relativistic.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You could, uh, have said it in the title that you were talking about Undertale, took me some time to understand what was going on.

Well, there is also Napstablook who closed blinds before light got in on Pacifist, and due to recent stats changes, Napstablook is now low Tier monster.

 

[LordXcano]

Yeah true, can anyone fix the name?

Also I'm pretty sure Napsta closes the blinds after the light gets in because they were annoyed by it. I think it was just kinda a joke about how they're a ghost so they wouldn't really be killed by the world ending and such, because they're already dead.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@LordXcano: Are you happy now? I changed it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but Mad Dummy seems to also have been killed, Napstablook is reportedly the only one who didn't got killed, and he said he saw the snails die on the farm before he heard the knock, AKA he had time to notice the timelapse between the light killing the snails and then knocking on his door.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I've already been over this. It's obviously not the real sun, because the sun would not fit under the surface of Earth. However, light is still light, and dodging light is still dodging light.

I've also heard the "it's not actually light" argument due to "attacks in Undertale being visual representations", except the fight with Papyrus revealing that attacks are in fact real events occurring in the physical world.

Also, if Napstablook had been touched by said light, they would have been absorbed by everyone else, unless we're assuming Napstablook is the strongest monster who can resist being absorbed by Asriel when nobody else could.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Considering Napstablook is now considered weaker than Icecap of all things, this seems unlikely.

 

[LordXcano]

@Crossover I am never happy

@Saikou Then I'd find it more likely that the light was more an expanding sphere type thing (see: Weirdness Bubble in Gravity Falls for what I'm getting at) rather than an indication of high Relativistic to FTL speed

@Azathoth I never said it wasn't a thing that was happening. I'm saying it is never referred to as light and that it doesn't behave like light. So there's no real reason to believe it is light. If they aren't just visual representations than that just backs my argument further, because that means there was litterally pellets being fired at you, not light.

Is there any video dialogue about Napstablook during the soul absorption? I'm trying to find some but nothing is really coming up. Either way I really doubt that it was an actual relativistic-FTL feat.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It was explicitely refered to as light, why are you trying to finds works around that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXKUhwtNfI

Here, 46:34

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@LordXcano

Actually, it behaves a decent amount like actual light, despite being depicted as particles/balls instead of rays. It comes from the source in all directions, as opposed to just a laser firing in a single path.

Also, what do you mean about Napstablook during the soul absorption? It all comes from the post game when talking to Napstablook, who unlike every other monster, never had his soul absorbed.

Asriel's soul absorption just appeared to be a flash of light, which was repeatedly described as light. Dismissing it as not valid because you simply don't feel it should be is not a good enough reason. Especially since the events were portrayed like this.

• Napstablook sees the flash of light reach their farm.

• Flash of light absorbs the snails.

• Flash of light reaches Napstablook's doorstep and "knocks" on their door.

• Napstablook closes blinds before the light comes into their house.

Plus, as Saikou mentioned, Napsta's kinda a shit-tier, now.

 

[LordXcano]

"It was explicitely refered to as light, why are you trying to finds works around that?"

Said light also came through the window but also knocked on his door. We don't know how it went down except there was light and a knock then the blinds closed. Since the light had to knock, it probably stopped itself for Napstablook.

"Actually, it behaves a decent amount like actual light, despite being depicted as particles/balls instead of rays. It comes from the source in all directions, as opposed to just a laser firing in a single path."

Yeah it goes in all directions, but that's about all it has going for it. There's also the rain operating at a similar speed in the same fight.

Think about it like this. If Touhou had no speed feats, then out of nowhere a random mook summoned a ball shaped like the sun and a bunch of pellets started coming out, would that be justification enough for a Relativistic to FTL Touhou?

"Asriel's soul absorption just appeared to be a flash of light, which was repeatedly described as light. Dismissing it as not valid because you simply don't feel it should be is not a good enough reason."

See above, said light stopped for Napstablook.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

We have things considered light speed that acted less light-y than that, it didn't said it stopped, could simply be that it knocked before entering through the windows, and blook closed them before it did that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Um, no. The light didn't come through the window. Napstablook saw it OUTSIDE the window when it absorbed the snails but before the light reached his house.

Most things in the game are the same speed, at that time. Hell, Vulkin's lava can travel at the same speed as its lightning during the fight.

>no speed feats

You mean besides all the casual lightning and electricity dodging that happens, right?

"said light stopped for Napstablook"

Um, no. It didn't "stop". It reached his door and "knocked", and Napstablook closed the blinds before the light came in through the window. Napstablook didn't say "i just ignored it" or something of that ilk, which would imply the light couldn't enter through a window.

They just said "i closed the blinds", which was implied to stop it from coming in through the window. I sincerely doubt Asriel was expecting him to open the door, otherwise the light wouldn't have absorbed everyone in the Underground who was inside a building, which it did.

 

[LordXcano]

"We have things considered light speed that acted less light-y than that, it didn't said it stopped, could simply be that it knocked before entering through the windows, and blook closed them before it did that." Well then they shouldn't be considered lightspeed

"Um, no. The light didn't come through the window. Napstablook saw it OUTSIDE the window when it absorbed the snails but before the light reached his house."

Which is more evidence for what I said? It's a big wall-esque thing that's very bright and it comes and absorbs the souls.

"Most things in the game are the same speed, at that time. Hell, Vulkin's lava can travel at the same speed as its lightning during the fight." Which means we should assume that the lightning isn't lightning speed, we low-end things remember.

">no speed feats

You mean besides all the casual lightning and electricity dodging that happens, right?"

I put an if there for a reason.

"Um, no. It didn't "stop". It reached his door and "knocked", and Napstablook closed the blinds before the light came in through the window. Napstablook didn't say "i just ignored it" or something of that ilk, which would imply the light couldn't enter through a window."

If the light is knocking it pretty obviously stopped to be polite or something. It's a silly moment, there's no reason the light couldn't just come in. Why would it knock if it was going to come in anyway?

"They just said "i closed the blinds", which was implied to stop it from coming in through the window. I sincerely doubt Asriel was expecting him to open the door, otherwise the light wouldn't have absorbed everyone in the Underground who was inside a building, which it did."

Again, it's a silly scene. If we take this is a super serious moment then Napstablook, despite being low, can blitz Asriel.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Which is more evidence for what I said? It's a big wall-esque thing that's very bright and it comes and absorbs the souls.

I put an if there for a reason.

If the light is knocking it pretty obviously stopped to be polite or something. It's a silly moment, there's no reason the light couldn't just come in. Why would it knock if it was going to come in anyway?

Again, it's a silly scene. If we take this is a super serious moment then Napstablook, despite being low, can blitz Asriel.

Where is the evidence that this light is wall-esque and not just an actual flash of light? Because I don't see it.

But if there was an "if" there in the first place, then the example doesn't apply here and it pointless.

The problem here is you're assuming the light stopped when it knocked. Also, considering we're talking about something done by Asriel/Flowey, who was a sociopathic murderer at the time, I really don't doubt the possibility of it being a taunt. Like I said, if it couldn't come through the windows, it wouldn't have gotten everyone else in the Underground who wasn't present during Asriel's transformation.

Yes, it's a silly scene and Napstablook is a silly character. This doesn't make the feat any less legit, and it certainly takes away the possibility of "outlier" being screamed at the sunlight dodging, because again, Napstablook is shit-tier.

Except he can't because the difference between Rel+/FTL and Immeasurable is literally infinite?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Everything Asrield did to that point was casual af tho.

And the argument about it being a silly scene could be used to say that "Stopping and knocking" shouldn't be taken seriously, thus rending the argument invalid.

 

[LordXcano]

"Where is the evidence that this light is wall-esque and not just an actual flash of light? Because I don't see it."

Napstablook seeing the light before the light gets to their room. If you can see the light, that means its already there. Which would have to mean the actual soul part was just a very bright wall-esque thing.

"But if there was an "if" there in the first place, then the example doesn't apply here and it pointless."

I am very sorry I was incapable of thinking of another relatable bullet hell game in a minute. Analogies still count though, they help explain what I'm saying. It doesn't matter if they're real.

"The problem here is you're assuming the light stopped when it knocked. Also, considering we're talking about something done by Asriel/Flowey, who was a sociopathic murderer at the time, I really don't doubt the possibility of it being a taunt. Like I said, if it couldn't come through the windows, it wouldn't have gotten everyone else in the Underground who wasn't present during Asriel's transformation."

Since nobody else in the Underground mentions a knock to the best of my knowledge, then this would be an incident regulated specifically to Napstablook. If we accept what you're saying with this paragraph then Napstablook would be way faster than everyone else in the Underground and therefore wouldn't actually scale to anything.

"Yes, it's a silly scene and Napstablook is a silly character. This doesn't make the feat any less legit, and it certainly takes away the possibility of "outlier" being screamed at the sunlight dodging, because again, Napstablook is shit-tier."

See above.

"Except he can't because the difference between Rel+/FTL and Immeasurable is literally infinite?"

That speed is regulated to after Asriel destroys time, otherwise everyone in 8BT would've been Immeasurable too when those pages were still up.

"And the argument about it being a silly scene could be used to say that "Stopping and knocking" shouldn't be taken seriously, thus rending the argument invalid."

We know that stopping and knocking is something that happened though. I was saying that the fact that light knocked indicates that it stopped for Napstablook as a joke and wanted him to open the door.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Napstablook seeing the light before the light gets to their room. If you can see the light, that means its already there. Which would have to mean the actual soul part was just a very bright wall-esque thing.

I am very sorry I was incapable of thinking of another relatable bullet hell game in a minute. Analogies still count though, they help explain what I'm saying. It doesn't matter if they're real.

Since nobody else in the Underground mentions a knock to the best of my knowledge, then this would be an incident regulated specifically to Napstablook. If we accept what you're saying with this paragraph then Napstablook would be way faster than everyone else in the Underground and therefore wouldn't actually scale to anything.

See above.

That speed is regulated to after Asriel destroys time, otherwise everyone in 8BT would've been Immeasurable too when those pages were still up.

Except this is fiction in which a ghost made of magic performs said feat. If everything in every fictional world had to follow real life's rules to the letter, nobody who moves FTL could even see. Hell, nobody in the DBU would be FTL because they wouldn't be able to actually see anything when they were fighting. In fact, nobody in fiction would even be ABLE to move FTL.

That's not the point. The point is you acted as though there are literally no other speed feats in the game, to which I proceeded to point out that things such as lightning and electricity are repeatedly obstacles which are dodged. Hence why the analogy is inapplicable, in this case.

Yes, nobody else mentions the knock, because they were all absorbed. Napstablook is the only individual who wasn't. As already stated, Napstablook is relatively weak compared to most other monsters you actually fight, almost all of whom were at the center of the flash when it occurred.

That's not how immeasurable speed works. Asriel destroying time does not make him move faster. Him being able to move without the basic one dimension of time we're normally regulated to simply shows that he exists beyond it.

 

[LordXcano]

"Except this is fiction in which a ghost made of magic performs said feat. If everything in every fictional world had to follow real life's rules to the letter, nobody who moves FTL could even see. Hell, nobody in the DBU would be FTL because they wouldn't be able to actually see anything when they were fighting. In fact, nobody in fiction would even be ABLE to move FTL."

There's also no prior indication that Napsta is FTL, so assuming that only he was able to dodge it and nobody else did for some reason seems a bit odd. Several more monsters were absorbed then were at the area Frisk was in, if any one of them were FTL it would've been easy to escape.

"That's not the point. The point is you acted as though there are literally no other speed feats in the game, to which I proceeded to point out that things such as lightning and electricity are repeatedly obstacles which are dodged. Hence why the analogy is inapplicable, in this case."

Fine, imagine Game X has no speed feats and then someone summons a yellow ball that looks like the sun but isn't consistent with the speed of any other attack in the game yet Main Character X dodges anyway. Is that justification for FTL?

"Yes, nobody else mentions the knock, because they were all absorbed. Napstablook is the only individual who wasn't. As already stated, Napstablook is relatively weak compared to most other monsters you actually fight, almost all of whom were at the center of the flash when it occurred."

Waaay more souls are absorbed then people who were at that area. If anyone were FTL this wouldn't have happened. Just going off this either Napsta is FTL and that's the only character who is or Napsta was treated differently during the absorption for humor purposes.

"That's not how immeasurable speed works. Asriel destroying time does not make him move faster. Him being able to move without the basic one dimension of time we're normally regulated to simply shows that he exists beyond it."

He still has to destroy time beforehand though.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

"There's also no prior indication that Napsta is FTL, so assuming that only he was able to dodge it and nobody else did for some reason seems a bit odd. Several more monsters were absorbed then were at the area Frisk was in, if any one of them were FTL it would've been easy to escape."

To be honest i don't think that Napsta has FTL reflexes or something like that and you are trying to make the scene look more complicated than it is. That dialogue it's just a silly moment of Napstablook shruging of even in the end of the world. The fact that he seen "the light" before it could enter his room is probably just a way to say "he saw a big light. So he locked the door and still get traped" the same way as you see a bright light when a Neighbour is having a party. So. And just as an advise. Don't make things complicated when they are not meant to be.


"Fine, imagine Game X has no speed feats and then someone summons a yellow ball that looks like the sun but isn't consistent with the speed of any other attack in the game yet Main Character X dodges anyway. Is that justification for FTL?"

First. They are not FTL. They are relativistic.

Second.That example is wayyyyy off to be honest. So let me be direct with this. What you are trying to say, is that the feat of Frisk dodging Knight Knight is inconsistent because he never do something like that in other battles, right? If that's the case. The example is still off, because Frisk has other speed feats apart from dodging Knight Knight. So it doesn't invalidate anything. I would be inconsistent if Frisk had just normal speed before fighting Knight Knight. But that's not the case

"Waaay more souls are absorbed then people who were at that area. If anyone were FTL this wouldn't have happened. Just going off this either Napsta is FTL and that's the only character who is or Napsta was treated differently during the absorption for humor purposes."

Fortunely. Nobody is FTL at that moment. And again. You are giving it many twists to that scene. Nasptablook just see a light (as it was a flash light) out of his house. He close the window and got absorbed regardless

"He still has to destroy time beforehand though."

In fact. No. If i exist outside time as people percive it it doesn't mean that i had to destroy time to activate that or something. It's just always there.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Napstablook is probably the only one who didn't care tho, most would just turn to see a flash of light coming their way, Napstablook just didn't want to get involved and closed the blind (He also saw the Snails dying)

 

[DontTalk]

I don't know undertale even a bit so I don't really want to actively discuss here, but just as information to my current information stand on how light dodging feats are treated:

The burden of proof concerning light stuff in fictions is to my knowledge usually considered to be lying by the one claiming the feat.

Or in other words, similar to how it is for lightning, because of the great amount of light users in fiction that obviously don't use real light and because every second beam is a laser (aka light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation") there should be some things demonstrated that clearly imply it is real light.

Typical things are (but not all are required and some can even be not the case): Reflecting from mirrors, being invisible to the eye before it hits, comming from a realistic lightsource (a real non magical sun, a lightbulb etc.), statements about being made from photons or electromagnetic waves, statements about lightspeed help, having the same speed in all reference frames, for lasers to burn through stuff instead of making knockback damage, actually calcing it to be close to lightspeed etc.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There's also no prior indication that Napsta is FTL, so assuming that only he was able to dodge it and nobody else did for some reason seems a bit odd. Several more monsters were absorbed then were at the area Frisk was in, if any one of them were FTL it would've been easy to escape.

Fine, imagine Game X has no speed feats and then someone summons a yellow ball that looks like the sun but isn't consistent with the speed of any other attack in the game yet Main Character X dodges anyway. Is that justification for FTL?

Waaay more souls are absorbed then people who were at that area. If anyone were FTL this wouldn't have happened. Just going off this either Napsta is FTL and that's the only character who is or Napsta was treated differently during the absorption for humor purposes.

He still has to destroy time beforehand though.

No prior indication of a feat does not mean the feat isn't valid. Napstablook doesn't even actually fight back (intentionally) during the game. He just kind of sits there and cries. Also, it's implied all the monsters Frisk befriended (ya know, the strong ones with actual usable stats) showed up to support them, meaning they were at the center of the absorption process. Weaker, random NPC monsters didn't show up, and they all still got absorbed. One of the only (if not the only) actually combat capable monsters who didn't show up was Napstablook, and he managed to shut his blinds before the light got in.

"no speed feats"

There it is, again. Except as I've pointed out, there are multiple speed feats in the game. Just because most of the others are lower level than these two does not mean they aren't feats.

See the first paragraph.

Still not how immeasurable speeds work.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@DontTalk

I think the problem that's being had here is that Undertale uses simplistic, 2-D sprites to represent things actually happening in battle. For instance, Vulkin summons a cloud which fires simplistic representations of lightning bolts, but it's still supposed to be an actual cloud and actual lightning, though done in a style so that it makes sense in battle. The game makes it clear that attacks are physical things happening in the real world, albeit they obviously don't always appear exactly as they should due to the sprites being made to be read as actual attacks as well as shifting perspective within the movement box.

 

[LordXcano]

"No prior indication of a feat does not mean the feat isn't valid. Napstablook doesn't even actually fight back (intentionally) during the game. He just kind of sits there and cries. Also, it's implied all the monsters Frisk befriended (ya know, the strong ones with actual usable stats) showed up to support them, meaning they were at the center of the absorption process. Weaker, random NPC monsters didn't show up, and they all still got absorbed. One of the only (if not the only) actually combat capable monsters who didn't show up was Napstablook, and he managed to shut his blinds before the light got in."

You still only befriend 100-150 people, but way more are absorbed. I don't know what you mean by combat capable because everyone fights you. Grillby is likely combat capable but he doesn't fight you despite being made of fire.

"There it is, again. Except as I've pointed out, there are multiple speed feats in the game. Just because most of the others are lower level than these two does not mean they aren't feats."

There's also the feat of Frisk punching a tomato with full force but only knocking it over, going with that level of speed either Frisk has really really low mass or just isn't very fast.

"I think the problem that's being had here is that Undertale uses simplistic, 2-D sprites to represent things actually happening in battle. For instance, Vulkin summons a cloud which fires simplistic representations of lightning bolts, but it's still supposed to be an actual cloud and actual lightning, though done in a style so that it makes sense in battle. The game makes it clear that attacks are physical things happening in the real world, albeit they obviously don't always appear exactly as they should due to the sprites being made to be read as actual attacks as well as shifting perspective within the movement box."

What you're referencing is Papyrus wondering where his attacks are, which notably look pretty much exactly like they do in battle albeit slightly more textured. If anything this would just show that the attacks are just simple representations of lightning and light, and not actually the real deal. You can't use something that shows something a certain way and then reinterpret it to mean a different thing when its convenient.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You still only befriend 100-150 people, but way more are absorbed. I don't know what you mean by combat capable because everyone fights you. Grillby is likely combat capable but he doesn't fight you despite being made of fire.

There's also the feat of Frisk punching a tomato with full force but only knocking it over, going with that level of speed either Frisk has really really low mass or just isn't very fast.

What you're referencing is Papyrus wondering where his attacks are, which notably look pretty much exactly like they do in battle albeit slightly more textured. If anything this would just show that the attacks are just simple representations of lightning and light, and not actually the real deal. You can't use something that shows something a certain way and then reinterpret it to mean a different thing when its convenient.

Yes, way more who likely weren't anywhere near as strong. I don't think characters such as Bratty and Catty would be too much stronger, if stronger at all, than the weakest of mooks you fight at the beginning of the game.

So the scene that only happens if you haven't killed anyone, which is meant to be funny and show how unwilling Frisk is to hurt anything, should be held higher than literally everything else they've shown by dodging numerous, incredibly fast projectiles? This would also mean God Flowey has sub-tomato durability.

You mean except for the fact that the bones in Papyrus' box only resemble the small bones he uses at the start of the fight, right? It's not even a reinterpretation. Just look at Undyne's battle. Do you really think Undyne is firing off little red, blue, and yellow arrows that look like generic signs, or that this is meant as a visual representation to make it earier for the player to tell what's going on. Even looking at a basic enemy like Aaron, it should be easy to tell that giant arms appearing from the bottom of the screen isn't meant to be him summoning actual giant arms, but him flexing at you portrayed as an attack. Even at the beginning of the game, you have things like Froggit's attacks, which are clearly meant to be him jumping at you and not him summoning a regular Frog which then proceeds to jump at you and disappear.This is why I feel saying that none of it is real light or lightning because it doesn't look the same in battle doesn't work. It needs to be presented in a way in which it can be utilized as an attack.

Not to mention, you yourself said Papyrus' bones in the overworld look like more textured versions of the ones used in battle, so why can't attacks such as Knight Knight's and Vulkin's be more simplistic representations of what is actually happening displayed in a way in which the player can dodge said attacks?

 

[LordXcano]

"Yes, way more who likely weren't anywhere near as strong. I don't think characters such as Bratty and Catty would be too much stronger, if stronger at all, than the weakest of mooks you fight at the beginning of the game."

And what reason is there to believe they're weaker than Napstablook?

"So the scene that only happens if you haven't killed anyone, which is meant to be funny and show how unwilling Frisk is to hurt anything, should be held higher than literally everything else they've shown by dodging numerous, incredibly fast projectiles? This would also mean God Flowey has sub-tomato durability."

You can't use a humorous scene to justify scaling to Relativistic and then disregard another humorous scene because its humorous.

"You mean except for the fact that the bones in Papyrus' box only resemble the small bones he uses at the start of the fight, right? It's not even a reinterpretation. Just look at Undyne's battle. Do you really think Undyne is firing off little red, blue, and yellow arrows that look like generic signs, or that this is meant as a visual representation to make it earier for the player to tell what's going on. Even looking at a basic enemy like Aaron, it should be easy to tell that giant arms appearing from the bottom of the screen isn't meant to be him summoning actual giant arms, but him flexing at you portrayed as an attack. Even at the beginning of the game, you have things like Froggit's attacks, which are clearly meant to be him jumping at you and not him summoning a regular Frog which then proceeds to jump at you and disappear.This is why I feel saying that none of it is real light or lightning because it doesn't look the same in battle doesn't work. It needs to be presented in a way in which it can be utilized as an attack."

Of course his box doesn't have every single attack? That'd be a bit absurd for such a small box. About Undyne, yeah? Her attacks out of battle are magical arrow spears and her attacks in battle are magical arrow spears. Aaron has flavor text supporting that the attack is actually him flexing, and Froggit could easily just have other frogs around it. Actually no, that's a bad explanation. Froggit also has flavor text supporting him hopping at you as well. Vulkin has flavor text supporting that it is using actual thunder ("Thunder! Helpful speed up!!!").

Knight Knight has nothing supporting actual light.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And what reason is there to believe they're weaker than Napstablook?

You can't use a humorous scene to justify scaling to Relativistic and then disregard another humorous scene because its humorous.

Of course his box doesn't have every single attack? That'd be a bit absurd for such a small box. About Undyne, yeah? Her attacks out of battle are magical arrow spears and her attacks in battle are magical arrow spears. Aaron has flavor text supporting that the attack is actually him flexing, and Froggit could easily just have other frogs around it. Actually no, that's a bad explanation. Froggit also has flavor text supporting him hopping at you as well. Vulkin has flavor text supporting that it is using actual thunder ("Thunder! Helpful speed up!!!").

Knight Knight has nothing supporting actual light.

Because they never fight, at all. Everyone who can't fight seems to flee during a genocide run. Random NPCs get out of dodge, while things like Woshua or Pyrope still stay and fight.

Humor isn't the only reason, as I stated before. This was done by pacifist Frisk, who is hilariously averse to violence, and is later discounted by other feats the character performs, including beating the snot out of one of the Underground's strongest monsters and actually (barely) harming God Flowey. Napstablook's feat is not disqualified by other feats, especially considering he hardly ever moves when you see him. In fact, during your first "fight", he's just sitting on a bunch of petals and crying.

No, I mean nowhere in the overworld are there any bone sprites of anything other than generic bones, though that's besides the point. By the same logic of things saying their attacks, Knight Knight wouldn't have this for obvious reasons. Its only dialogue is "Good night" in multiple languages.

 

[LordXcano]

"Humor isn't the only reason, as I stated before. This was done by pacifist Frisk, who is hilariously averse to violence, and is later discounted by other feats the character performs, including beating the snot out of one of the Underground's strongest monsters and actually (barely) harming God Flowey. Napstablook's feat is not disqualified by other feats, especially considering he hardly ever moves when you see him. In fact, during your first "fight", he's just sitting on a bunch of petals and crying."

As far as I'm aware Frisk never actually hurts Flowey, Flowey was just taunting them. The only time you damage Flowey is when the souls start to rebel IIRC. Either way, if you can use a humorous scene to justify FTL/Relativistic scaling then I can use the tomato scene to justify a sub-tomato Asgore.

"No, I mean nowhere in the overworld are there any bone sprites of anything other than generic bones, though that's besides the point. By the same logic of things saying their attacks, Knight Knight wouldn't have this for obvious reasons. Its only dialogue is "Good night" in multiple languages."

No, I'm talking about flavor text, not dialogue. The stuff like "Aaron is splashing you playfully." and "You flex. Aaron flexes twice as hard." That suggests Aaron is flexing and sweating/splashing as an attack. Vulkin has "Thunder! Helpful speed up!!!" suggest Vulkin is using thunder. Knight Knight could've easily had "Light fills the room" or "The sun shines brilliantly", but it has nothing supporting that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As far as I'm aware Frisk never actually hurts Flowey, Flowey was just taunting them. The only time you damage Flowey is when the souls start to rebel IIRC. Either way, if you can use a humorous scene to justify FTL/Relativistic scaling then I can use the tomato scene to justify a sub-tomato Asgore.

No, I'm talking about flavor text, not dialogue. The stuff like "Aaron is splashing you playfully." and "You flex. Aaron flexes twice as hard." That suggests Aaron is flexing and sweating/splashing as an attack. Vulkin has "Thunder! Helpful speed up!!!" suggest Vulkin is using thunder. Knight Knight could've easily had "Light fills the room" or "The sun shines brilliantly", but it has nothing supporting that.

Frisk deals chip damage to God Flowey, which is still damage, and which still requires and impressive level of power. Also, as I said before, the difference is one of these scenes is later contradicted several times, while the other is not.

Aaron's flexing flavor text comes from the fact you pacify him by flexing. Vulkin is announcing its own attack. Knight Knight, as I said before, only ever says "Good night" in multiple languages and is pacified by singing, which has nothing to do with her attacks.