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Ben 10 Cosmology Downgrades & Other Things (Yes, this is happening again)

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Good afternoon y'all. It's been a while since I done one of these, but back at it again here, so you already know where this is heading. We're back with another Ben 10 thread. And yes. we are going to go through this yet again. I've witnessed some of the changes that it's been through recently, and have a lot of problems with how they've been passed, so im tackling them here in this new thread. Or rather, continuing from where @Zamasu_Chan left off earlier. So without further a due, let's get on to it.

The Purpose of This Thread

So some months ago recently, the Ben 10 verse has went through some pretty significant changes, both in the Cosmology and how characters like Alien X scale to it. You can refer to these threads on where these upgrades happened.

Previous Approved Threads​

  1. https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-timelines-and-dimensions-structure-proposal-accepted.142279/
  2. https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-other-space-times-in-the-universe-accepted.142789/
  3. https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-canonicity-of-comic-hero-two-times-discussion-thread.142450/
  4. https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-tier-2-universe-structure-proposal-accepted.142864/
  5. https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-discrediting-the-downgrade-of-2019-accepted.143385/
    1. https://vsbattles.com/threads/celestialsapien-upgrade-scaled-to-chrono-navigator.63024/
  6. https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-10-tier-2-a-cosmology-proposal-accepted.143443/

Relevant Blogs From Threads​

Before leaving the wikia recently (as I just found out), Zamasu made a downgrade thread for both Alien X and the Ben 10 Cosmology, where the discussion for that was then moved back to this old thread to continue it there, before it eventually got closed due to Zamasu's inactivity with it. While the discussion itself ceased with Zamasu not responding back to it, the points and arguments that he brought up in it I found to be reasonable and were not fully addressed, only concluding because of one side not coming back. This thread of mine will pretty much just be piggy-backing off Zamasu's arguments to continue them, with my own 2 cents added.

So the purpose of this thread will be to address my concerns and the concerns Zamasu had with the state of Ben 10's Cosmology as it's currently being treated here. Alien X, while apart of Zamasu's original downgrade, is being saved for another thread of mine, and will have little to nothing to do with this one. The primary focus here is discussing the Cosmology.

The Problems with the Cosmology

Problem 1: The Cosmology Being 2-A

First things first, explaining why the current Cosmology is an issue for (us) me. I don't really agree with Ben 10's multiverse being infinite. At least, not in the way that it's treated as of right now anyway. Much of the evidence that was used to justify it's 2-A standing, from the recent threads I've looked over so far, is extremely flimsy, built on assumptions, and some even being reused after having already been deemed unreliable several times in the past, and it being explained why it was unreliable over and over again. Let's get into why this evidence isn't as ironclad as people think.

Evidence 1: Professor Holiday's Statement on Infinite Dimensions

This overused statement is one of the evidences brought up the most, so i'll address this one first. In the Generator Rex & Ben 10 crossover episode, we have a statement provided to us by Professor Holiday about there being theoretically infinite dimensions in existence.




Since Generator Rex and Ben 10 are canon to each other, it's easy to see how this results in being 2-A at first, right? Except, that's not actually the case. Concerns of one sided canonicity put aside, Holiday's infinite dimension statement shouldn't be considered reliable to use as evidence for the Cosmology at all. There have been multiple past threads and discussions it was brought up in, and every time it was brought up, an explanation as to why it was problematic was provided in those discussions, so it begs the question as to why it's still being used to this day.

Holiday isn't a credible character that can be taken seriously when speaking about the structure of the cosmology. She only comes to this conclusion about infinite dimensions existing through simple math and calculations, implied by her comment on "math not working" in Rex's favor when he asked if he'd see Ben again. She isn't like Professor Paradox, where in his case, he has an actual deep understanding of space-time and credible level of knowledge and research done into the existence of alternate worlds, a concept that Generator Rex as a whole never deals with in their series, outside of this crossover episode. I know what other verses do on here shouldn't have an effect on what another verse does, but for this particular situation, if something like this was really enough to get to 2-A, a lot more series here would be upgraded just the same, and would have been for a while. But this isn't even the biggest issue with Holiday's statement actually.

What's even more damning here about the unreliability of the statement is that Holiday herself originally believed that parallel worlds didn't even exist in the first place. That the existence of any parallel world was only a theory, and a shaky one at that. Ben mentions himself traveling to parallel worlds all the time and she immediately shoots him down.




Yet, shes then suddenly aware that infinite dimensions exist? If she doubted the idea of another universe even existing to begin with, why are we taking her word as fact when she says there are then infinite? See what I mean?

2-A as a whole is not something that should be this easily accessible based off evidence like this, especially shaky evidence that shoots itself in the mouth like this does. Our site has very high standards when it comes to the territory of granting 2-A upgrades for a reason, and something like this most definitely shouldn't be meeting those said standards. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Not to mention, as a bonus point if you really wanted to take this issue further, we can look at the context behind this statement and what it's being aimed at. There doesn't literally need to be infinite dimensions in order for Holidays statement to answer Rex's concern. The point here is that Rex wondered if he and Ben would ever cross paths again after Ben goes back to his own world, but Holiday intervenes, saying the math isn't in his favor of that being a likelihood because there are supposedly infinite worlds. At the end of the day, we know that the Ben 10 Multiverse is filled with a ridiculous number of universes and dimensions, whether it's infinite or not. So when going off of Holiday's answer to Rex's concern, there doesn't need to be literally infinite dimensions in order to simply say the likelihood of Rex and Ben meeting again isn't in Rex's favor. In other words, this infinite dimensions statement can just be argued to be a flowery, fancy way of saying that Rex and Ben will most likely not cross paths again because of the ridiculously large amount of parallel worlds there are, so it doesn't necessarily need to be literally infinite dimensions exactly. Especially since Generator Rex as a show doesn't dive into the concept of parallel universes and space-times outside of this crossover, and Holiday's initial doubt on different worlds being in existence only being a shaky theory, making this a plausible assertion to make. But even with being generous, stronger points against this statement were made.

Between her lack of credible knowledge and the fact she initially doubted the existence of parallel worlds, Holiday suddenly coming to the conclusion there is then an infinite number of them and claiming that shouldn't be taken seriously in any capacity, and should be removed as evidence for this.

Evidence 2: The use of "Word of God" Twitter Statements

This also comes up very often when concerning Ben 10 revisions, despite how often it's been explained to not be permitted to be used, so im addressing this part next.

This part of the evidence used for 2-A comes from comments made on Twitter to answer fan questions asking about the scope of the Cosmology. "Word of God" comments in other words.





As well as this, this, and this. There's probably more, but you get the picture at this point.

I really don't have to say much as to why this evidence is extremely faulty, as it'll just be repeating what has already been said in the past. But, to be perfectly blunt, this will go to show how extremely unmoderated these revisions for the verse are if evidence like this are allowed to be passed again and again without any questions being raised. In any event, these "word of god" answers are not allowed to be used as evidence, in any way, shape or form.

We literally have it written in our Editing Rules page that any answers to fan questions that seemingly come from the writer/creator directly on social media are to be generally disregarded, as they are made in uncaring and unserious manners, and that only answers from proper, serious and actual interviews are to be taken as evidence for revisions here.

"Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable."

Something that none of these twitter responses meet the standards of in any capacity when it comes to this rule. Even if you wanted to stretch it with the last 2 twitter answers, where they have at least some amount of depth put in to their answer as opposed to just being a one worded one, they still aren't sufficient evidence for upgrading the Cosmology. One doesn't even mention anything about infinite universes, and the other talks about physicists having different ideas and perspectives about the concept of parallel worlds, where there could be as many as infinite ones to as low as 12, giving no explicit confirmation as to which is the actual case for the scope of the multiverse. Either way, using these twitter responses as evidence to allow the Cosmology to be upgraded breaks our sites editing rules, there's no validity or reliability to them at all as there isn't with any social media response, and they should be removed as evidence as well.

Evidence 3: Hero Two Times Comic Statement

This next evidence comes from the Hero Two Times comic, another crossover between Generator Rex and Ben 10 (or the same crossover with expanded details that the cartoon show's crossover didn't show). In this crossover, Ben makes a statement to Rex about how there are millions of dimensions.

Now, this isn't as much of a problem as the previous evidences I talked about. In fact, the statement in and of itself is fine for the most part. You could question whether or not Ben's word on this is reliable enough to take it literally, but that's not the main problem with this.

The issue I have with this is the canonicity of the comic itself. In the thread where determining the canonicity of the action pack comic took place, none of the reasons given where deemed sufficient enough to accept the comic as canon, except for one. Duncan's answer to a fan asking if the action pack comics were canon was the only reason the Hero Two Times comic was accepted as canon for this statement to be used (shown by @Eficiente accepting it's canon status when seeing this, but not having done this before then).

Notice a familiar issue? It's as I already went into before about the use of social media answers, only this time here its about the canon of a source instead of the scope of the cosmology. But I wont go too much into this, as the statement itself isn't much of a problem and even if the comic is canon, this at best only supports 2-B.

Evidence 4: The Infinite Timestream

Lastly, this last piece of evidence I found for supporting 2-A from the given threads recently, that may also be worth something, is the timestream being stated to be infinite as it was used in this previous thread. And here's the clip for it as well.




As I said, the timestream being stated infinite may be worth something towards 2-A, but with the other evidences that were used in tandem with this being put into question, this by itself may not be enough as was mentioned in the 2-A thread to be up for interpretation in regards to it's context. But i'll be holding off on this for now as well and tackle this later in the discussion, as I want to tackle the next problem with the Cosmology currently as was previously brought up that should be mentioned again.

Problem 2: Every Universe Containing Infinite "In-Universe" Dimensions

This one is the bigger issue at hand that definitely needs to be addressed. While I explained above why a lot of the evidence justifying the Cosmology being 2-A shouldn't hold, we can play devils advocate here and say without a doubt that the Multiverse is indeed infinite. Even if that indeed is the case, the claim that every universe in this said multiverse contains another infinite amount of dimensions residing inside themselves, therefore making the Prime universe and every other universe a sort of Multiversal Macrocosm, is an argument that goes extremely unsupported, and uses a lot of assumptions, without a shred of evidence proving this is legit. Zamasu went a lot into bringing this up already, so i'll just quote what he had to say about this earlier.

The Prime Universe​

This OP provides solid proof the Null Void exists in the prime universe and this OP has good evidence Legerdomain is part of the prime universe. I can agree that the prime universe is 2-C.
However, my first problem comes from Kevin's overused statement in this clip.
Kevin: Wait, I thought the universe was everything.
Paradox: Common error of the parochial mind. There's always more to reality than one imagines.
Kevin is wrong. The universe is not everything. So using this statement as evidence is very faulty. When Paradox took Ben and the gang to an alternate timeline, Kevin still thought the universe was then. This statement has no form of validity when it solely exists to point out that Kevin was wrong.
This means Dimension 12 and the other infinite dimensions have no evidence of being part of the prime universe at all. We even see an alternate universe in that same clip (0:21).
Why would Ledgerdomain existing in the universe mean that every other dimension has to exist in it as well? Where's the proof?
It doesn’t matter cause Kevin is still wrong and could easily mistake anything for being part of the universe. A 2-A universe still requires extraordinary evidence because it relies heavily on assumptions. That’s the problem.
Why is is assumed that the “universe” itself has infinite dimensions? There was only proof of the null void being part of the prime universe. So where’s the proof that all these dimensions are in a single universe?
I’ve looked at the thread and the cosmology blog. There was only evidence provided for the null void. The other dimensions aren’t even mentioned.

The point should be clear, and Zamasu's downgrade thread is linked here at the beginning so you can go back to read the discussions in full if you want to. As far as dimensions like the Null Void & Ledgerdomain go, and maybe Dimension 12, they were given sufficient to solid evidence to prove they reside within the Prime universe. So it being a 2-C sized structure is fine. Zamasu himself agreed with this too.

But everything else? The Prime Universe containing infinite dimensions inside of itself? This being the case in the Ben 10 multiverse is something never once proven, in any capacity, in any of these recent revisions. Not a scan, databook entry, a statement, anything like that is given. The only reason given for having infinite dimensions residing within the Prime Universe here was "there is no reason to think they aren't". Occams Razor, with assuming an infinite amount are in a universe simply because 2 or 3 dimensions mentioned earlier were specifically proven to.

To be perfectly blunt, this is straight up ridiculous, something we don't do anywhere on this site and is absolutely not acceptable under our standards. It's like I mentioned before, 2-A upgrades like this one have high standards here for a reason, the bigger the claims you make, the bigger the requirement of evidence becomes. This is a massive reverse burden of proof being done, simply assuming something on such a scale like this is happening only because a couple dimensions in particular were given proof reaches gigantic levels of speculation and reverses the Occam's razor. Far more than this is needed to prove a universe contains infinite other dimensions, and the fact this went through with no one questioning this raises a lot of issues.

And on that note, another issue with this that is worth bringing up too is that this also takes crazy manipulation of the words "universe", "timeline", and "dimension", terms that everyone here knows are used interchangeably all the time. Zamasu goes at great length to explain this for Ben 10's case as well:

What I'm asking for is proof that Kevin knows there are infinite dimensions before Paradox showed him another universe. In chronological order, Paradox shows us another universe, then we get the infinite and millions of dimensions statement. You have to prove that Kevin knew of these dimensions prior to Paradox showing him a potential multiverse. Even so, "dimension'" is a very loose term.

Dimensions​

Ben's 23rd dimension reachable through "dimension" travel and is reinforced to be a dimension showing it's not an alternate timeline. It's even called a universe as well.
Paradox calls NW Ben's timeline a universe. He then goes on to say there are many Ben Tennysons across those dimensions and later refers to them as branching timelines. In the same instance, he uses "universe" "dimension" and "timeline" interchangeably.
Rex's universe is called a parallel world twice and Paradox confirms cross-time/timelines are parallel worlds.
Azmuth says Dagon enslaved 100 dimensions and seeks to enslave ours. He then says that if he gains a foothold in this dimension, then the universe falls. Azmuth uses dimension and universe interchangeably to describe the prime universe.
Here Gwen calls Dagon's universe a dimension, yet here Dagon calls his dimension a universe and reinforces the idea that the prime universe isn’t connected to his because he has no control over it yet.
"The ruination of this universe" is more evidence that both worlds are different despite being one dimension.
Dagon then calls the universe a "dimension" again.
Vilgax describes the prime universe and Dagon's dimension as "universes".

As you can see, dimension, universe, and timeline have loose meanings and can all mean the same thing. Even Rook calls the timeless white space a dimension. It takes a huge leap in logic to assume that all dimensions exist in one universe just because they're called dimensions. Even taking Kevin's statement into account, it's contradicted. The prime universe is called a single dimension more than once so the idea that the universe is made of multiple space-times is invalid. This is especially apparent when the universe was created it's not shown as a collection of dimensions but a collection of stars and galaxies like a regular universe.

Other gripes​

Null void​

The Null Void is a pocket dimension and criminals are said to be banished "from the universe itself", which shows it's not part of the universe. Pocket dimensions can exist in the universe but aren’t connected to them, so destroying the universe wouldn't automatically mean the pocket dimension is destroyed as well. As a pocket dimension, there's no 5D axis so it wouldn’t be 2-C regardless.

I think what I quoted speaks for itself. These terms are very interchangeably used, extremely often both in fiction and in Ben 10. For us to assume that every universe, like the Prime Universe, contains an infinite amount of dimensions inside of themselves to be considered 2-A structures contained within the multiverse, all because they're called dimensions, is something we shouldn't be doing without a significant amount of evidence and context being given proving this is legitimately the case. And as of now, none of the provided threads where these upgrades were accepted make an attempt at doing this.

The likelihood of Ben 10's Multiverse being considered 2-A is already lowered as I explained in the first section, but even with the benefit of the doubt and we take it as 2-A, the scale of 2-A it's currently at needs major revising.

TL;DR

The Ben 10 Cosmology uses a lot of flimsy evidence and speculation for its current standing. It's evidence for 2-A stands on little legs with only one thing possibly going for it, and the scale of it's 2-A level where infinite dimensions reside inside every universe like the Prime Universe has no evidence whatsoever and uses pure speculation. One way or another, the justifications used to support the verse's current standing, for the reasons given here, are wrong and need to be fixed.

Agree (7): @Toby020, @Everything12, @Maverick_Zero_X, @CurrySenpai, @WIngs_Of_Despair (Agrees with axing 2-A universes), @AKUTO123, @Setsuna_tenma,

Disagree (17): @Sir_Ovens, @Firestorm808, @DarkDragonMedeus,@Reiner , @Aachintya31, @omegabronic, @Lynieryz, @Forthegood, @WIngs_Of_Despair (Disagrees with downgrading the Multiverse from 2-A), @Ottavio_Merluzzo , @ImmortalDread, @DemonicDude, @Nierre, @Alexander, @RoTt35, @Lovemovies14, @Guacamolefletcher

Neutral: @Vasco , @Irineu, @Problemexe, @Godernet

Disagree with the thread:
 
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I read the whole argument, it seems very reasonable and it seems that it's really not how we imagined the verse would be, I believe that the verse to be accepted as 2-A should be really elaborate and not just assumptions, so I agree with OP.
 
Evidence 1: Professor Holiday's Statement on Infinite Dimensions
I agree to this. Professor Holiday does not seem to be knowledgeable on the structure of the cosmology, and so her statements shouldn't be taken as fact.

Evidence 2: The use of "Word of God" Twitter Statements
I also agree to this. Twitter statements should not be used, not unless it is in an official setting.

Evidence 3: Hero Two Times Comic Statement
Millions is indeed not infinite. What reasons are their that the comic might be non-canon?

Evidence 4: The Infinite Timestream
I agree, thia is shakey evidence that I wouldn't give a possibly on it's own.

Problem 2: Every Universe Containing Infinite "In-Universe" Dimensions
I agree the likes of the Null Void and Ledgerdominion should not be treated the same as parallel timelines based off the evidence presented. For such an assumption the evidence presented should not be so weak.
 
be a flowery, fancy way of saying that Rex
Good. Leave it to that.

theoretically infinite dimensions in existence.
I don't see any problem in knowing infinite dimensions theoretically? And her not knowing if parallel world's exist or not doesn't matter at all of she just has theoretical evidence. Has it been contradicted?

Between her lack of credible knowledge
Prove it.
We literally have it written in our Editing Rules page that any answers to fan questions that seemingly come from the writer/creator directly on social media are to be generally disregarded, as they are made in uncaring and unserious manners, and that only answers from proper, serious and actual interviews are to be taken as evidence for revisions here.
Answers that has been given several times by several authors and is supported by the show is unreliable? You are stretching the arms beyond it should be.

Notice a familiar issue? It's as I already went into before about the use of social media answers, only this time here its about the canon of a source instead of the scope of the cosmology. But I wont go too much into this, as the statement itself isn't much of a problem and even if the comic is canon, this at best only supports 2-B.
Answers about something being canon or not can only comes from God of mouth given that it concerns the series they are part of. They said it is and it is. It's not about they stating random things about if this character can destroy universe and just going out of what has shown but just justifying what is canon to what under their jurisdiction. And, Duncan statement was only asked by efi, as he only want to be convinced with that statement there were already enough agreements before that. What one finds convincing should be leave at that.
But i'll be holding off on this for now
Okay, then I won't be answering it for now either.
As far as dimensions like the Null Void & Ledgerdomain go, and maybe Dimension 12, they were given sufficient to solid evidence to prove they reside within the Prime universe. So it being a 2-C sized structure is fine. Zamasu himself agreed with this too
Yeah, universe is capable of containing multiple spacetime continuum's.
But everything else? The Prime Universe containing infinite dimensions inside of itself? This being the case in the Ben 10 multiverse is something never once proven, in any capacity, in any of these recent revisions. Not a scan, databook entry, a statement, anything like that is given. The only reason given for having infinite dimensions residing within the Prime Universe here was "there is no reason to think they aren't". Occams Razor, with assuming an infinite amount are in a universe simply because 2 or 3 dimensions mentioned earlier were specifically proven to.
Entire thread is dedicated to that and ignoring everything, this doesn't exist is your answer?

And on that note, another issue with this that is worth bringing up too is that this also takes crazy manipulation of the words "universe", "timeline", and "dimension", terms that everyone here knows are used interchangeably all the time. Zamasu goes at great length to explain this for Ben 10's case as well:
The fact that DIMENSIONAL DISRUPTOR can only connect dimensions inside of universes and entire show and entire statement has only been made over dimensions inside the universe and Rex has NO WAY to travel to another universe, Oscam Razer applies here.
Saying that they're universes is faar stretched if anything.
These terms are very interchangeably
Context matters my guy regardless if something is interchangeable, if the episode hasn't concerned itself with universes and no ******* way has to travel to those, there is no point in mentioning that. "Sagan standards". Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidences.

Disagree. The evidences are just that "We have high standards and we shouldn't use this consistent statements supported by show is not a evidence nor a reason nor a debunk"
 
What's even more damning here about the unreliability of the statement is that Holiday herself originally believed that parallel worlds didn't even exist in the first place. That the existence of any parallel world was only a theory, and a shaky one at that. Ben mentions himself traveling to parallel worlds all the time and she immediately shoots him down.




Yet, shes then suddenly aware that infinite dimensions exist? If she doubted the idea of another universe even existing to begin with, why are we taking her word as fact when she says there are then infinite? See what I mean?
 
I don't see any problem in knowing infinite dimensions theoretically? And her not knowing if parallel world's exist or not doesn't matter at all of she just has theoretical evidence. Has it been contradicted?

Your missing the point. If Holiday initially believed the existence of any parallel world was only a theory (which we know obviously is wrong), why are we then going to take her word seriously in any capacity when she says there are then infinite? That in and of itself displays a lack of credible knowledge in the subject and is a contradiction right there.

Prove it.

This is a reverse burden of proof. You need to be the one to prove shes credible in the first place to take information from.

And even then, im 99% certain my evidence of her calling the existence of parallel worlds a shaky theory is evidence that proves she's not credible to speak on the subject.
Answers that has been given several times by several authors and is supported by the show is unreliable? You are stretching the arms beyond it should be.
You have at best ONE actual in-show infinite statement. A collection of social media answers, to leading fan questions, that just so happen to say that doesn't automatically make these sources reliable to increase consistency. Thats not how a reliable source works.
Answers about something being canon or not can only comes from God of mouth given that it concerns the series they are part of.
Pretending that Death of the Author doesn't exist, or that we don't take what the show says over what the author says. Word of God is not infallible here.
Entire thread is dedicated to that and ignoring everything, this doesn't exist is your answer?
Okay? The issue at hand still remains. No evidence was given to prove infinite dimensions exist inside the universe. You only gave evidence for Ledgerdomain and the Null Void.

If evidence exists, post it here please.
The fact that DIMENSIONAL DISRUPTOR can only connect dimensions inside of universes and entire show and entire statement has only been made over dimensions inside the universe and Rex has NO WAY to travel to another universe, Oscam Razer applies here.
Saying that they're universes is faar stretched if anything.
Thats not how Occams Razor works, and this still misses the actual point here on the terms being very interchangably used as Zamasu went over with you guys earlier on.

Even then, Rex's dimension being infinite is put largely into question at the same time.
Context matters my guy regardless if something is interchangeable, if the episode hasn't concerned itself with universes and no ******* way has to travel to those, there is no point in mentioning that. "Sagan standards". Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidences.
See above.
 
math and calculations
Deducing anything based off maths =/= being unreliable.They literally made portals and universal+ reality warping nanite just based off maths and earth bound knowledge.
What's even more damning here about the unreliability of the statement is that Holiday herself originally believed that parallel worlds didn't even exist in the first place. That the existence of any parallel world was only a theory, and a shaky one at that.
That's them basically not trusting Ben .They considered him an EVO who was lying to them
The issue I have with this is the canonicity of the comic itself. In the thread where determining the canonicity of the action pack comic took place, none of the reasons given where deemed sufficient enough to accept the comic as canon, except for one. Duncan's answer to a fan asking if the action pack comics were canon was the only reason the Hero Two Times comic was accepted as canon for this statement to be used (shown by @Eficiente accepting it's canon status when seeing this, but not having done this before then).
Its was written by a prominent writer of ben 10 franchise with references from the crossover which is backed up by Duncan's answer. He only considered action comics canon and denied for others.
 
We have M theory? We know exact number of them theoretically? We don't know if they exist are they wrong? Damn we don't know if multiverse exist but we do know if they exist then they'll theoretically have certain amount of number that's all there is.

This is a reverse burden of proof. You need to be the one to prove shes credible in the first place to take information from.
She is credible? She is One of most knowledgeable character which will not spout any nonsense and she is aware of Theories. And have a face value which should be taken into account. Burden of proof fallacy.


You have at best ONE actual in-show infinite statement. A collection of social media answers, to leading fan questions, that just so happen to say that doesn't automatically make these sources reliable to increase consistency. Thats not how a reliable source works.
Supported in the show? Consistency among writers? What else is needed?
Pretending that Death of the Author doesn't exist,
Why is it death of author when show doesn't contradict it neither it's his interpretation but direct statement of a simple question supported by the show?
interchangably
Context is everything I've addressed zamasu chan argument even back then even now.

1-Universe can contain multiple spacetime continuum's.
2-dimensional disruptor can only connect dimensions inside universes.
3-the entire show is only concerns with inside universe dimensions.

Sagans standards, extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidences. Burden of proof is on you.
 
Deducing anything based off maths =/= being unreliable. They literally made portals and universal+ reality warping nanite just based off maths and earth bound knowledge.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of parallel worlds and knowing they exist. Which they clearly didnt as Holiday herself shot Ben down with saying its a shaky theory.

Plus, this site doesn't have our standards so low where we accept 2-A from evidence like this.
That's them basically not trusting Ben .They considered him an EVO who was lying to them

How is this a counter argument? There's a difference between not believing someone because you don't trust their character and not believing someone because you think what theyre saying is impossible to happen, from your point of view. This case is very clearly the latter.

Holiday dismissed Ben's statement because she very adamantly believed parallel worlds didn't exist and were only a shaky theory. Meaning, from her PoV and from Generator Rex's PoV at that point, parallel worlds were not a thing existing for them. Otherwise, she wouldn't have shot Ben down from a scientific point of view, but simply would've thought parallel worlds existed and just didn't believe Ben was from one.

Its was written by a prominent writer of ben 10 franchise with references from the crossover which is backed up by Duncan's answer. He only considered action comics canon and denied for others.
But it was the tweet specifically that changed Eficientes mind in accepting it as canon, which is the problem im talking about here.

As I said, this in particular is only a minor problem as its not 2-A evidence, even if it being canon is fine, so im not too concerned with this as I am with the other evidences.
 
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of parallel worlds and knowing they exist. Which they clearly didnt as Holiday herself shot Ben down with saying its a shaky theory.

We have M theory? We know exact number of them theoretically? We don't know if they exist are they wrong? Damn we don't know if multiverse exist but we do know if they exist then they'll theoretically have certain amount of number that's all there is
Holiday dismissed Ben's statement because she very adamantly believed parallel worlds didn't exist and were only a shaky theory. Meaning, from her PoV and from Generator Rex's PoV at that point, parallel worlds were not a thing existing for them. Otherwise, she wouldn't have shot Ben down from a scientific point of view, but simply would've thought parallel worlds existed and just didn't believe Ben was from one.
My above comment?

But it was the tweet specifically that changed Eficientes mind in accepting it as canon, which is the problem im talking about here.
It's his thing, he wanted I gave? You can deal with him I don't mind. Other ppls accepted it w/o it. And the point is it's their thing. They told it's canon then it is.
 
Also I'll suggest to not make me repeat myself. Context is everything, consistency among writers supported by the show is fine. Calculating numbers theoretically and being one of most knowledgeable character in the show and face value to not spout any nonsense is all there is to this excuse thread.
 
We have M theory? We know exact number of them theoretically? We don't know if they exist are they wrong? Damn we don't know if multiverse exist but we do know if they exist then they'll theoretically have certain amount of number that's all there is.
Your still missing the point at hand here. You can't take the word of someone who's knowledge into the particular subject has been increasingly questionable and use it as evidence. Thats cherry picking what you want to take from that character.
She is credible? She is One of most knowledgeable character which will not spout any nonsense and she is aware of Theories. And have a face value which should be taken into account. Burden of proof fallacy.
Except, not a Burden of Proof fallacy, as you didn't meet said burden of proof in the first place.

Someone being a knowledgeable person is not evidence. This is literally the equivalent of saying we can take the word of any random professor as fact just because they're smart. Not how this works.

The argument isnt that Holiday isn't knowledgeable. The argument is that Holiday is not knowledgeable in this particular field and that, for THIS subject, she doesn't know what she's talking about and can't be taken seriously.
Supported in the show? Consistency among writers? What else is needed?
You just repeated the exact same thing as I countered before. So i'll say it again.

You have at best ONE in-universe infinite statement, which is up for interpretation on its lonesome. A source doesn't suddenly become reliable just because it happens to say the same thing on coincidence. Instead, your taking these tweets as reliable simply because they parrot this one very thing, and using that to increase the consistency.
Why is it death of author when show doesn't contradict it neither it's his interpretation but direct statement of a simple question supported by the show?
Because it's as I just explained in my OP. Answers to fan questions on social media are not acceptable in any capacity and we have a rule written here for this for a reason. Direct statements and word of god are not absolute.

And this doesn't rule out Death of the Author being a possibility because of the fact the consistency for this is insanely low. Again, you only have one actual in-universe infinite statement, and the interpretation of that alone is up for question.
1-Universe can contain multiple spacetime continuum's.
Huge difference between multiple and infinite, as only the former was given evidence in the first place when proving it for Ledgerdomain and the Null Void

Which, by the way, weren't proven to be of universal sizes as Zamasu pointed out IIRC. They're pocket dimensions, which being contained inside the universe is....incredibly common.
2-dimensional disruptor can only connect dimensions inside universes.
3-the entire show is only concerns with inside universe dimensions.
What I bolded out is very heavy speculation. Where is the evidence for this?
 
Evidence 2: The use of "Word of God" Twitter Statements

This also comes up very often when concerning Ben 10 revisions, despite how often it's been explained to not be permitted to be used, so im addressing this part next.

This part of the evidence used for 2-A comes from comments made on Twitter to answer fan questions asking about the scope of the Cosmology. "Word of God" comments in other words.





As well as this, this, and this. There's probably more, but you get the picture at this point.

I really don't have to say much as to why this evidence is extremely faulty, as it'll just be repeating what has already been said in the past. But, to be perfectly blunt, this will go to show how extremely unmoderated these revisions for the verse are if evidence like this are allowed to be passed again and again without any questions being raised. In any event, these "word of god" answers are not allowed to be used as evidence, in any way, shape or form.

We literally have it written in our Editing Rules page that any answers to fan questions that seemingly come from the writer/creator directly on social media are to be generally disregarded, as they are made in uncaring and unserious manners, and that only answers from proper, serious and actual interviews are to be taken as evidence for revisions here.

"Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable."

Something that none of these twitter responses meet the standards of in any capacity when it comes to this rule. Even if you wanted to stretch it with the last 2 twitter answers, where they have at least some amount of depth put in to their answer as opposed to just being a one worded one, they still aren't sufficient evidence for upgrading the Cosmology. One doesn't even mention anything about infinite universes, and the other talks about physicists having different ideas and perspectives about the concept of parallel worlds, where there could be as many as infinite ones to as low as 12, giving no explicit confirmation as to which is the actual case for the scope of the multiverse. Either way, using these twitter responses as evidence to allow the Cosmology to be upgraded breaks our sites editing rules, there's no validity or reliability to them at all as there isn't with any social media response, and they should be removed as evidence as well.

they meet the standards, they are not leading questions, they are giving clarification for what happens in the series, you didn't gave a reason as for why they shouldn't be used, being a twitter answer only disqualify if the series itself show clear contradictions to what it was answered, with the adtion of the infinite timestream that has alternate realities branching from it, then there is support from what was said by WoG, being a twitter question should not disqualify the information given necessarily, thus the "in general" in the rules regarding WoG

Evidence 3: Hero Two Times Comic Statement

This next evidence comes from the Hero Two Times comic, another crossover between Generator Rex and Ben 10 (or the same crossover with expanded details that the cartoon show's crossover didn't show). In this crossover, Ben makes a statement to Rex about how there are millions of dimensions.

Now, this isn't as much of a problem as the previous evidences I talked about. In fact, the statement in and of itself is fine for the most part. You could question whether or not Ben's word on this is reliable enough to take it literally, but that's not the main problem with this.

The issue I have with this is the canonicity of the comic itself. In the thread where determining the canonicity of the action pack comic took place, none of the reasons given where deemed sufficient enough to accept the comic as canon, except for one. Duncan's answer to a fan asking if the action pack comics were canon was the only reason the Hero Two Times comic was accepted as canon for this statement to be used (shown by @Eficiente accepting it's canon status when seeing this, but not having done this before then).

Notice a familiar issue? It's as I already went into before about the use of social media answers, only this time here its about the canon of a source instead of the scope of the cosmology. But I wont go too much into this, as the statement itself isn't much of a problem and even if the comic is canon, this at best only supports 2-B.

Evidence 4: The Infinite Timestream

Lastly, this last piece of evidence I found for supporting 2-A from the given threads recently, that may also be worth something, is the timestream being stated to be infinite as it was used in this previous thread. And here's the clip for it as well.




As I said, the timestream being stated infinite may be worth something towards 2-A, but with the other evidences that were used in tandem with this being put into question, this by itself may not be enough as was mentioned in the 2-A thread to be up for interpretation in regards to it's context. But i'll be holding off on this for now as well and tackle this later in the discussion, as I want to tackle the next problem with the Cosmology currently as was previously brought up that should be mentioned again.

this is why we have the clarification given by WoG, the infinite time stream would sugest infinite realities as they branch from it, number that is confirmed
by said WoG

Problem 2: Every Universe Containing Infinite "In-Universe" Dimensions

This one is the bigger issue at hand that definitely needs to be addressed. While I explained above why a lot of the evidence justifying the Cosmology being 2-A shouldn't hold, we can play devils advocate here and say without a doubt that the Multiverse is indeed infinite. Even if that indeed is the case, the claim that every universe in this said multiverse contains another infinite amount of dimensions residing inside themselves, therefore making the Prime universe and every other universe a sort of Multiversal Macrocosm, is an argument that goes extremely unsupported, and uses a lot of assumptions, without a shred of evidence proving this is legit. Zamasu went a lot into bringing this up already, so i'll just quote what he had to say about this earlier. And on that note, another issue with this that is worth bringing up too is that this also takes crazy manipulation of the words "universe", "timeline", and "dimension", terms that everyone here knows are used interchangeably all the time. Zamasu goes at great length to explain this for Ben 10's case as well:

The Prime Universe​

This OP provides solid proof the Null Void exists in the prime universe and this OP has good evidence Legerdomain is part of the prime universe. I can agree that the prime universe is 2-C.
However, my first problem comes from Kevin's overused statement in this clip.
Kevin: Wait, I thought the universe was everything.
Paradox: Common error of the parochial mind. There's always more to reality than one imagines.
Kevin is wrong. The universe is not everything. So using this statement as evidence is very faulty. When Paradox took Ben and the gang to an alternate timeline, Kevin still thought the universe was then. This statement has no form of validity when it solely exists to point out that Kevin was wrong.
This means Dimension 12 and the other infinite dimensions have no evidence of being part of the prime universe at all. We even see an alternate universe in that same clip (0:21).
Why would Ledgerdomain existing in the universe mean that every other dimension has to exist in it as well? Where's the proof?
It doesn’t matter cause Kevin is still wrong and could easily mistake anything for being part of the universe. A 2-A universe still requires extraordinary evidence because it relies heavily on assumptions. That’s the problem.
Why is is assumed that the “universe” itself has infinite dimensions? There was only proof of the null void being part of the prime universe. So where’s the proof that all these dimensions are in a single universe?
I’ve looked at the thread and the cosmology blog. There was only evidence provided for the null void. The other dimensions aren’t even mentioned.
the argument from this is that during the ben 10 generator rex crossover, ben hadn't visited any alternate universe/branching timeline yet, only visiting dimensions like the null void and such, but he still says that they are dealing with alternate dimensions, so everything talked about dimensions in the crossover is not talking about other timelines/realities/universes, gonna be honest i am quite shaky with this reasoning as well, so i will remain neutral for now until i hear the other side's arguments for it

And on that note, another issue with this that is worth bringing up too is that this also takes crazy manipulation of the words "universe", "timeline", and "dimension", terms that everyone here knows are used interchangeably all the time. Zamasu goes at great length to explain this for Ben 10's case as well:
same as the above, i am quite shaky on the universe itself being 2-A, but i prefer waiting for the other side to hear what they might say

The likelihood of Ben 10's Multiverse being considered 2-A is already lowered as I explained in the first section, but even with the benefit of the doubt and we take it as 2-A, the scale of 2-A it's currently at needs major revising.

TL;DR

The Ben 10 Cosmology uses a lot of flimsy evidence and speculation for its current standing. It's evidence for 2-A stands on little legs with only one thing possibly going for it, and the scale of it's 2-A level where infinite dimensions reside inside every universe like the Prime Universe has no evidence whatsoever and uses pure speculation. One way or another, the justifications used to support the verse's current standing, for the reasons given here, are wrong and need to be fixed.
the case for 2-A multiverse is solid, with an strong indication in the series that is confirmed by WoG

disagree with 2-A multiverse downgrade, neutral but leaning to agreeing on 2-A multiverse until the side of the original upgrade speaks here
 
But it was the tweet specifically that changed Eficientes mind in accepting it as canon, which is the problem im talking about here.
i guess canon rules have no contradiction for it to be considered non canon.
As I said, this in particular is only a minor problem as its not 2-A evidence, even if it being canon is fine, so im not too concerned with this as I am with the other evidences.
ok.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of parallel worlds and knowing they exist. Which they clearly didnt as Holiday herself shot Ben down with saying its a shaky theory.
I dont agree with this .She is one of the most smartest character in Gen Rex. If the writers wanted to throw out such a useless statement, they would have likely used an unintelligent character.
Plus, this site doesn't have our standards so low where we accept 2-A from evidence like this.
Where are the so called high standards ?
Holiday dismissed Ben's statement because she very adamantly believed parallel worlds didn't exist and were only a shaky theory. Meaning, from her PoV and from Generator Rex's PoV at that point, parallel worlds were not a thing existing for them. Otherwise, she wouldn't have shot Ben down from a scientific point of view, but simply would've thought parallel worlds existed and just didn't believe Ben was from one.
No. They have characters like Breach whose entire concept is based off a pocket dimension. They obviously know about parallel worlds via math . Its many of things they have done with regular earthly knowledge.
 
Your still missing the point at hand here. You can't take the word of someone who's knowledge into the particular subject has been increasingly questionable and use it as evidence. Thats cherry picking what you want to take from that character
I am Missing the point in the OP. And that's there is all. This is just a excuse and not evidence and I can just repeat myself again over it. In m theory we know that number of universes are 10^500 regardless if we don't know if the multiverse exist and if multiverse exist we can just evaluate these numbers to them.

The argument is that Holiday is not knowledgeable in this particular field
No proof? She is literally aware of parallel worlds theory and is one of most knowledgeable character and wouldn't spout any nonsense. Saying that Brian greene one of most knowledgeable person on multiverse in the world is not knowledgeable because he said he don't know if multiverse exist or not? Nah.
Yeah it shows consistency among writers and that statement is not unreliable given the fact it is supported by the show.
Because it's as I just explained in my OP. Answers to fan questions on social media are not acceptable in any capacity and we have a rule written here for this for a reason. Direct statements and word of god are not absolute.
Are generally disregarded, not always? They are consistent and are supported by the show so fine.

And this doesn't rule out Death of the Author being a possibility because of the fact the consistency for this is insanely low. Again, you only have one actual in-universe infinite statement, and the interpretation of that alone is up for question.
Okay? I don't understand what you meant here.

Huge difference between multiple and infinite, as only the former was given evidence in the first place when proving it for Ledgerdomain and the Null Void.

Which, by the way, weren't proven to be of universal sizes as Zamasu pointed out IIRC. They're pocket dimensions, which being contained inside the universe is....incredibly common.
multiple spacetimes are for that there are dimensions that exist in the universe and as per context all other are as well.

Man. There is literally no evidence but "interchangeable", "unreliable", "shouldn't be".
 
when was this stated?
In the show, Dimensional disruptor are the device that based of design of nullvoid projector that can only connect in universe dimensions. And that's all it did. Ben 10 verse treats devices that can connect dimensions inside universe and devices that can connect universes differently.
Example:- hands of amargada, chrononavigator for universes.
Nullvoid projector and dimension 12 projector for inside universe dimensions.
They can't be used interchangeably.
 
You have at best ONE in-universe infinite statement, which is up for interpretation on its lonesome. A source doesn't suddenly become reliable just because it happens to say the same thing on coincidence. Instead, your taking these tweets as reliable simply because they parrot this one very thing, and using that to increase the consistency.

Because it's as I just explained in my OP. Answers to fan questions on social media are not acceptable in any capacity and we have a rule written here for this for a reason. Direct statements and word of god are not absolute.

And this doesn't rule out Death of the Author being a possibility because of the fact the consistency for this is insanely low. Again, you only have one actual in-universe infinite statement, and the interpretation of that alone is up for question.
1 how is it up to question? it is very blatant that the time stream is infinite
2 answers from social media are not prohibited, as said in the rules they are generally not used, meaning that it is not set in stone, and in this case where it is supported by the series and we have multiple WoG answers confirming infinite universes, then we can use it since there is no logical reason for us not to in this case
3 for to disqualify these WoG as death of the author statements you would have to prove that they are contradicted in the series in the first place, the burden is on you in this instance
 
The argument from this is that during the ben 10 generator rex crossover, ben hadn't visited any alternate universe/branching timeline yet, only visiting dimensions like the null void and such, but he still says that they are dealing with alternate dimensions, so everything talked about dimensions in the crossover is not talking about other timelines/realities/universes,

This and.
In the show, Dimensional disruptor are the device that based of design of nullvoid projector that can only connect in universe dimensions. And that's all it did. Ben 10 verse treats devices that can connect dimensions inside universe and devices that can connect universes differently.
Example:- hands of amargada, chrononavigator for universes.
Nullvoid projector and dimension 12 projector for inside universe dimensions.
They can't be used interchangeably.
This
And that, saying they are universes are way far stretched when there is no indication of it at all. Forget about indication no dealing nothing and out of nowhere they're saying it is just extraordinary if anything.

There are 3 types of dimensions in Ben 10.
1 universes.
2 dimensions inside universes.
3 naljians one.

And we can use deductive reasoning and Sagan standards here as it's blatant af. There is entire context to it.
 
In the show, Dimensional disruptor are the device that based of design of nullvoid projector that can only connect in universe dimensions. And that's all it did. Ben 10 verse treats devices that can connect dimensions inside universe and devices that can connect universes differently.
Example:- hands of amargada, chrononavigator for universes.
Nullvoid projector and dimension 12 projector for inside universe dimensions.
They can't be used interchangeably.
so to see if i get it, the devices used in universe shouldn't be able to access alternate timelines due to how they are treated alternatively and in universe by the characters?
 
I also agree to this. Twitter statements should not be used, not unless it is in an official setting.
Actually in this comment Based Writer

The writer somehow vaguely says that the QandA Center is via Twitter and he says there is no other way too get answers other than Man of Action QnA center which is Twitter seeing how they use Twitter as an QnA spot for Ben 10 fans frequently.

Edit: I'll update the link too imgur
 
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Actually in this thread Post in thread 'Ben 10 - Alien X downgrade y’all saw coming a mile away!' https://vsbattles.com/threads/ben-1...ll-saw-coming-a-mile-away.143973/post-5185377

The writer somehow vaguely says that the QandA Center is via Twitter and he says there is no other way too get answers other than Man of Action QnA center which is Twitter seeing how they use Twitter as an QnA spot for Ben 10 fans frequently.
A story editor of Omniverse (Matt Wayne) stated that nothing is definitive unless it’s acknowledged in the show.

In this instance I’m inclined to agree with following our site rules that state leading “Word of God” social media statements should be disregarded.

That aside, I definitely agree with axing individual universes being 2-A structures. “There is no reason to think they aren't" certainly isn’t sufficient evidence for such an extraordinary claim.

I’m neutral on the infinite Time Stream statement atm. I suppose that could be consistent with the statement that alternate timelines branch off "Ad infinitum.”
 
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