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the entire fight in an imgur. pretty sure hes using retcon punches
He also rediscovered the move before hand in issue 4 of death metal
I did not notice any explicit retcon punches there.
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the entire fight in an imgur. pretty sure hes using retcon punches
He also rediscovered the move before hand in issue 4 of death metal
Well, I just don't want us to scale lots of characters to literally infinitely stronger statistics than they have at least somewhat consistently demonstrated based on very few highly unreliable feats and due to scaling to a character that has been all over the place power-vise, but I agree with what I think is your intended point here about finding balanced solutions.But [MADE UP CONSISTENCY THAT ISN'T CONSISTENT] and should be [MADE UP CONSISTENCY THAT ISN'T CONSISTENT] [FOR A COMPOSITE]
Just gonna save every visitors' time and say this thread is an utter waste of time, and is just a test of attrition in which side gets too annoyed to debate anymore first.
You can see his punches cracking reality like glass, that's how his retcon punch is since introduced.I did not notice any explicit retcon punches there.
The first album not only shows multiple changes but Prime himself states that reality has been altered by some of his attacks.did not notice any explicit retcon punches there.
Nah they're literally the sameJust because their memories remained this does not mean that they had the same power levels. If so, early post-Crisis characters, such as the Superman that was knocked out by a nuclear weapon, would not have been able to challenge them.
That is definitely not correct...Honestly. All the scans you added to the discussion leave me feeling even more convinced that the most consistent interpretation of these characters is far closer to planetary than universal.
clearly not correct? lmao. He is 5th realm imp, where the fifth realm is imagination and scales above a lot of stuff.Myx is no different from a cartoon character scaling anyone to him especially durability is wrong.
Mxy was nerfed by magicMxy has always been a glass cannon. He and other imps have been knocked out by rocks before as an example. Just harming Myx isn't solid scaling imo, especially when he was nerfed for the event.
Several of them are limiters, explicitly so.I think very obviously, so little of the feats presented for tier 5 and 4 are limiters
nearly all of them were debunked as anti featsJesus christ dude. You do not need to post five separate comments in a row. Just respond to everyone in the same comment.
Second,
Several of them are limiters, explicitly so.
No, they weren't. Many of them were pretty clearly validated and only a couple had actual context which changed it.nearly all of them were debunked as anti feats
showNo, they weren't. Many of them were pretty clearly validated and only a couple had actual context which changed it.
"We" as in you?We are not derailing. We have been attempting to explain the greater contexts regarding why these suggested upgrades are far too unreliable and inconsistent to ever be accepted in conjunction with why the feats themselves are too few and too unreliable for such massively drastic upgrades.
and degon"We" as in you?
Bruhdegon
As far as I see, the only topic of discussion is between scaling and feats that are already dismissed by the wiki. Superboy Prime already has solid universal justification; scaling to the Anti-Monitor, Ion, Mordru, Golden-Age Superman, the Flashes (who we scale to Universal at full power) and feats such as his Retcon Punches (done while nerfed on one occasion, I might add).We are not derailing. We have been attempting to explain the greater contexts regarding why these suggested upgrades are far too unreliable and inconsistent to ever be accepted in conjunction with why the feats themselves are too few and too unreliable for such massively drastic upgrades.
Is... Is Low 2-C not an absurdly gargantuan tier? With a few levels of infinity gapping Low Multi to Multi?he was also massively powered-up when surviving (but being knocked unconscious by) a tier Low 2-C explosion.
The Anti-Monitor was explicitly only portrayed as tier 3-C in that story.Superboy Prime already has solid universal justification; scaling to the Anti-Monitor
What does the emotional entity version of Ion scale to specifically?
What does the post-Crisis incarnation of Mordru scale to?Mordru
He was also all over the place in terms of power level.Golden-Age Superman
We consider that to be environmental destruction.the Flashes (who we scale to Universal at full power)
I do not think that they seem possible to properly quantify.feats such as his Retcon Punches (done while nerfed on one occasion, I might add).
The point is that SBP was enormously powered-up at the time and very explicitly reached an upper limit of Low 2-C despite this, and that he was explicitly constantly all over the place in terms of characters that he could hurt and that could hurt him, and that who can fight who scaling is extremely unreliable for Marvel Comics and DC Comics in the first place. Do we really want to scale post-Crisis Cassie Sandsmark to The Darkest Knight for example?Is... Is Low 2-C not an absurdly gargantuan tier? With a few levels of infinity gapping Low Multi to Multi?
Well, SBP did evidently retain most of his extra power in order to rip Monarch's suit open right afterwards, but I think that the Low 2-C explosion drained most of it, knocked him out, and shrunk him down if I remember correctly.I'd also like to note by the time of him ripping open Monarch's suit, Monarch noted he was losing the powerup and shrinking back down
Yet an even weaker Anti Monitor was capable of throwing out High 3-A attacks.The Anti-Monitor was explicitly only portrayed as tier 3-C in that story.
Being stated to have infinite power and being able to create the Universe, also back-scaling from Prime himself.What does the emotional entity version of Ion scale to specifically?
2-C to 2-A.What does the post-Crisis incarnation of Mordru scale to?
I thought we already went through this discussion, and it ended with me convincing you that Golden Age Superman could be reliably scaled to 2-C.He was also all over the place in terms of power level.
Harming the Anti Monitor isn't environmental destruction.We consider that to be environmental destruction.
He was affecting the universe, and time, with his AP. That sounds pretty quantifiable.I do not think that they seem possible to properly quantify
First off, why are you still bringing up the Darkest Knight? That was a one-time 1-A feat that the WIKI DOESN'T ACCEPT.The point is that SBP was enormously powered-up at the time and very explicitly reached an upper limit of Low 2-C despite this, and that he was explicitly constantly all over the place in terms of characters that he could hurt and that could hurt him, and that who can fight who scaling is extremely unreliable for Marvel Comics and DC Comics in the first place. Do we really want to scale post-Crisis Cassie Sandsmark to The Darkest Knight for example?
Weaker how? This version of the Anti-Monitor was explicitly severely damaged from a 3-C level attack.Yet an even weaker Anti Monitor was capable of throwing out High 3-A attacks.
Can you show me references please?Being stated to have infinite power and being able to create the Universe, also back-scaling from Prime himself.
Based on what feats and scaling?2-C to 2-A.
Not reliably. He really was all over the place as well.I thought we already went through this discussion, and it ended with me convincing you that Golden Age Superman could be reliably scaled to 2-C.
We do not scale the Wally West Flash from it currently. I think that a revision headed by @Firestorm808 or possibly @Confluctor revised it as a massive outlier from his itherwise displayed power levels.Harming the Anti Monitor isn't environmental destruction.
As far as I recall, the changes that he imposed via chain-reaction, such as resurrecting Jason Todd, were minor though.He was affecting the universe, and time, with his AP. That sounds pretty quantifiable.
We do not accept to scale from it, but it still happened, just like a character that was tier Low 2-C at his peak was regularly harmed by at best tier 5 character such as Cassie Sandsmark. Why should we selectively only scale him to the characters that you prefer to be included and not ignore them together with all of the other nonsense outliers?First off, why are you still bringing up the Darkest Knight? That was a one-time 1-A feat that the WIKI DOESN'T ACCEPT.
No, it was stated that his reserves were beginning to run out due to Monarch pushing his limits, and then the Low 2-C explosion spent them almost completely.Secondly, SBP's amp was explicitly stated to have run out, and that he was starting to shrink down.
That isn't how shared western superhero settings work, as you should know by now. Characters from wildly different tiers regularly fight each other more often than not, and upgrades that are technically astronomical are seldom treated as such in practical confrontations.Low 2-C is an infinite sized tier (or larger), is it not? Just because a 2-C attack knocked him out when he was amped, doesn't mean he isn't 2-C normally.
That seems to be an explicit power level feat, which our wiki considers far more reliable than who can fight who matchup results, but I may misunderstand your point here.If Superman was knocked out by a TerraFoe attack while heavily amped, would we consider his regular KiloFoe rating invalid because he couldn't withstand a higher-end 4-B attack? No, we wouldn't.
We stopped scaling Wally to AM because it was apparently hax as opposed to AP. Which is really silly to me, but w/eWeaker how? This version of the Anti-Monitor was explicitly severely damaged from a 3-C level attack.
Can you show me references please?
Based on what feats and scaling?
Not reliably. He really was all over the place as well.
We do not scale the Wally West Flash from it currently. I think that a revision headed by @Firestorm808 or possibly @Confluctor revised it as a massive outlier from his itherwise displayed power levels.
As far as I recall, the changes that he imposed via chain-reaction, such as resurrecting Jason Todd, were minor though.
We do not accept to scale from it, but it still happened, just like a character that was tier Low 2-C at his peak was regularly harmed by at best tier 5 character such as Cassie Sandsmark. Why should we selectively only scale him to the characters that you prefer to be included and not ignore them together with all of the other nonsense outliers?
No, it was stated that his reserves were beginning to run out due to Monarch pushing his limits, and then the Low 2-C explosion spent them almost completely.
That isn't how shared western superhero settings work, as you should know by now. Characters from wildly different tiers regularly fight each other more often than not, and upgrades that are technically astronomical are seldom treated as such in practical confrontations.
That seems to be an explicit power level feat, which our wiki considers far more reliable than who can fight who matchup results, but I may misunderstand your point here.
But didn't we got the scaling back because Barry also could eff with AM in a recent thread? Or I'm tripping?We stopped scaling Wally to AM because it was apparently hax as opposed to AP. Which is really silly to me, but w/e
that's rebirth barry and wallyBut didn't we got the scaling back because Barry also could eff with AM in a recent thread? Or I'm tripping?
Fractional dimensions in non-euclidean geometry. Even if it was properly 4D it shouldn't tier the laser without a good feat behind it given how inconsistent dimensions are in DC.with it's engine being a literal mathematically fourth dimensional object.
except it's clearly meant to be an actual mathematical fourth dimensional objectFractional dimensions in non-euclidean geometry. Even if it was properly 4D it shouldn't tier the laser without a good feat behind it given how inconsistent dimensions are in DC.
Unfortunately, even if legit, that's unquantifiable.except it's clearly meant to be an actual mathematical fourth dimensional object
Clearly? How so? They explicitly described the types of dimensions being described and they aren't proper geometric dimensions.except it's clearly meant to be an actual mathematical fourth dimensional object
The quote was "Arthur Cayley's fractional geometry". Arthur is known for his work with n-dimensions as quoted hereFractional dimensions in non-euclidean geometry.
The quote right after was also a four dimensional object projecting a three dimensional shadow.Cayley developed the theory of algebraic invariance, and his development of n-dimensional geometry has been applied in physics to the study of the space-time continuum. His work on matrices served as a foundation for quantum mechanics, which was developed by Werner Heisenberg in 1925. Cayley also suggested that euclidean and non-euclidean geometry are special types of geometry. He united projective geometry and metrical geometry which is dependent on sizes of angles and lengths of lines.
It probably should be Tier 2 since Stalker was powering the device with his own energy. I feel like a bigger problem is if people scale to him cause he did overwhelm the entire JSA at once, but they still wounded him enough to force him to retreatThe quote was "Arthur Cayley's fractional geometry". Arthur is known for his work with n-dimensions as quoted here
The quote right after was also a four dimensional object projecting a three dimensional shadow.
It being Tier 2 is something else, but the object is 100% 4th Dimensional in our system and I don't see how you can take it as anything else