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Shovel Knight 2-C

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KLOL506 said:
SK Kratos would be merged with canon Kratos and here is what it'll be like:

An SK key where Kratos is basically Norse Kratos, Innate powers (Demigod and Norse), Resistances (Demigod, GoW and Norse) and All, but none of his Norse equipment (That includes the Leviathan Axe, Draupnir Spear, the Shields, Weapon Handles, Runes, Enchantments, Talismans, Amulets, Berserker Hilts and then some).
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This is still happening regardless of whatever end of the stick SK gets guys
 
No, I'm not buying this.

Our sources for Shovel Knight being canon to God of War are Cory Barlog and Bruno Velazquez. Both of these people were developers for God of War, but neither of them were developers for Shovel Knight. They have authority to say what is or is not canon to God of War, but they do not have authority to say what is or is not canon to Shovel Knight.

This CRT does support the fact that Shovel Knight is canon to God of War, but that's besides the point - it needs to establish that God of War is canon to Shovel Knight. This may sound redundant, but it's actually a very important distinction when dealing with a crossover like this. The God of War developers have stated that Kratos meeting and fighting Shovel Knight was canon to the overarching events of God of War (which I should mention they say with enough of a humourous tone that I'm not even 100% sure they weren't just leaning heavily into a joke). If we take their statements as fact, then we could theoretically make a profile for Shovel Knight within the God of War universe and say that version of Shovel Knight is 2-C.

But to say that the version of Shovel Knight within Shovel Knight is 2-C requires establishing that, within the Shovel Knight universe, both the fight against Kratos and all the events of the God of War games that give Kratos his feats canonically occurred. Even taking things at face value, we only have evidence for the former. Cory Barlog and Bruno Velazquez did not have any role whatsoever in developing Shovel Knight, and so they are not qualified sources to say what did or did not happen in the Shovel Knight canon.

This is especially pertinent when you consider the contradictions. Not only is the entire world of Shovel Knight clearly not the same in any way as the world of God of War, but Kratos explicitly has tools and weapons at his disposal in the depiction in Shovel Knight that he canonically does not have at that point in the God of War timeline. Even if we took Cory Barlog's and Bruno Velazquez's statements as proof of the Shovel Knight canon, which we would not do for any other verse and should not do here, we are brushing over the fact that the media itself explicitly contradicts the author statements. This is the textbook example of a case where we acknowledge Death of the Author - we acknowledge the principle that the fictional story is an entity that exists separately from the person who wrote it, and that the fictional story takes precedent when determining its form over what the author may claim. In this case, the story contradicts the author in such a clear way that we would take the story as precedent.

I do not agree with this change at all. We are not upgrading the verse of a game that only displays tier 8 feats all the way up to tier 2 because of comments made by developers of an entirely different game.
 
Marvel_Champion_07 said:
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Well, that obviously changes things. Thank you for the information.

However, the underlying point, and everything else with it, still applies. We've established a strong precedent in CRTs in the past that, even with explicit statements, we do not take things such as responses to fan questions on Twitter as adequate proof for profile revisions. The old DMC 3-A ratings based on Kamiya's Twitter comments come to mind - we do not give ratings based off of author social media comments even when the depiction in the media is tenuous, let alone contradicted like this.

And furthermore, the problem regarding Death of the Author still applies. The depiction of Kratos in Shovel Knight provably is not the same as the Kratos that would be present at the purported point in the timeline. The media contradicts the author's claims, and in this situation, we would take the media. Without an explanation for these contradictions, we cannot simply take this at face value.
 
DarkGrath said:
Well, that obviously changes things. Thank you for the information.

However, the underlying point, and everything else with it, still applies. We've established a strong precedent in CRTs in the past that, even with explicit statements, we do not take things such as responses to fan questions on Twitter as adequate proof for profile revisions. The old DMC 3-A ratings based on Kamiya's Twitter comments come to mind - we do not give ratings based off of author social media comments even when the depiction in the media is tenuous, let alone contradicted like this.

And furthermore, the problem regarding Death of the Author still applies. The depiction of Kratos in Shovel Knight provably is not the same as the Kratos that would be present at the purported point in the timeline. The media contradicts the author's claims, and in this situation, we would take the media. Without an explanation for these contradictions, we cannot simply take this at face value.
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What about option A then?

And what do you think on the SK Kratos merge with Canon Kratos?
 
KLOL506 said:
What about option A then?

And what do you think on the SK Kratos merge with Canon Kratos?
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I don't endorse the canonicity here, and I don't endorse the merger either.
 
ShionAH said:
Would this mean SK resists conceptual manipulation lol
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main-qimg-25c67f3c6b9e68d8c3d833bf4c13df74-pjlq
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
You don't know what death of the author means. I'm not debating with someone of your level of intelligence. Staff that accept this are wankers. Not sorry.
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Classy, you’re almost as annoying as I am now 🗿
Point is, death of the author doesn’t mean we throw away multiple WG statements, or else we could just say that for literally every author statement ever and reject it. Just going to end with this: they made they damn game, you can’t just say they’re all wrong about what’s canon when your evidence relies on a mere plot hole of his weapons
especially when the timeframe for when it happens has been directly given to just nail down further that shovel knight fought a very specific version of Kratos.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
I am 50% sure that this is gonna become a staff discussion thread so I’d just like to ask for speaking privileges in advance
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Already tagged a lot of staff, let's just wait for them to voice their opinion. If they disagree, CRT is rejected. If they accept it, we hash out which option they accepted.
 
KLOL506 said:
Also @Zamasu_Chan and @ZillertheBucko, stop ******* bickering, agree to disagree, voice your votes and move the **** on. You've done what you can, let staff handle it now.
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So I’m guessing this is a staff only thread now? If not, then I haven’t broken any rules here (Zamasu was the one calling the agreeing people low IQ wankers), so I don’t see why you’re telling me I can’t speak. It’s gonna have to either become a staff thread or continue being open for discussion.
 
Shovel Knight being canon to GoW is a thing, but technically cant it be that GoW isn't canon to Shovel Knight? The gap in power of verses is ridiculous without canonicity.
 
I knew I should have read the thread more.

Well, the gap is so dumb wide between main SK game (unless Dig and other spin-off went brrr) and scaling to GoW games, it should be blatant outlier. But because funny power creep makes funny Shovel Man stronk who cares.

Technically Disagree on scaling so Option A, but it seems that this will prolly pass so ehh Option B works. Since word of god is used, it seems that they are canon to each other at least.
 
ZillertheBucko said:
So I’m guessing this is a staff only thread now? If not, then I haven’t broken any rules here (Zamasu was the one calling the agreeing people low IQ wankers), so I don’t see why you’re telling me I can’t speak. It’s gonna have to either become a staff thread or continue being open for discussion.
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If you keep bickering, yes, it will be a staff-only thread soon.

Everyone now should just vote, explain their vote, counter arguments, and agree to disagree if they reach an impasse and move one.
 
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