Battle for 6th Strongest 2-C Non-Smurf (Reimu Hakurei vs KR Saber)

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm only like a whole ass month late to making this. Saber is in his Wonder Almighty key, speed equalized, SBA.

Reimu: @Quibster, @OverlordDonnelly, @Deidalius, @BERRIES555, @Dragonite007, @GlaceonGamez471, @Alfarro_Unlimited, @Jamesthetaker
Saber: @Robo432343, @Lynieryz
Incon:

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll start by explaining why I think Reimu wins. She has layered (5+ layers) passive probability hax which bypass type 4 acausality, which works by making her impossible to hit and by tilting victory in her favor. Basically, if she can win, she will. From this, she'd probably start with Fantasy Nature, which is thought-based 2-B spatial intangibility that Saber cannot bypass. Honestly, at that point she can do whatever; Make him give up by draining his spirit/stamina, seal him, use her thought based summoning to instantly kill him, paralyze him, or just gradually beat his ass down with a huge stamina advantage (3+ days tracking youkai across Gensokyo without sleep vs fighting for hours at a time and shrugging off wounds). Even if she somehow doesn't lead with all of this, she does typically lead with illusions/perception manipulation, which Saber does not resist, so he'd be unable to track her while she has free reign to do whatever she wants (which is typically sealing, seeing as how most of her attacks do that... or just transmutation off of any ofuda hit with danmaku spam).

Saber does have hax that can kill or incap Reimu, but her passives make it so they're just... not going to happen before she yeets herself out of reality.

 

[Robo432343]

plot hax>probability hax

ez

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

plot hax>probability hax

ez

Passives >>> non-passives, gg

 

[Robo432343]

Passives >>> non-passives, gg

does her passives insta kill
coz then saber would go plot hax gg to prevent him from losing or just win

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I literally explained what her passives do lol

Does Saber actually open with his plot hax? And are they thought-based or passive? If the answer to either of those is no, then Reimu just wins.

 

[Robo432343]

I literally explained what her passives do lol

Does Saber actually open with his plot hax? And are they thought-based or passive? If the answer to either of those is no, then Reimu just wins.

thought based

 

[Robo432343]

I literally explained what her passives do lol

yuh they dont insta kill
so he can go plot hax gg to save the game

 

[BERRIES555]

I literally explained what her passives do lol

Does Saber actually open with his plot hax? And are they thought-based or passive? If the answer to either of those is no, then Reimu just wins.

He does in fact open with them and is thought-based

 

[Deidalius]

So far I am leaning towards favoring Saber.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

yuh they dont insta kill
so he can go plot hax gg to save the game

And how will he do that when Reimu 1. has victory tilted in her favor via probability hax, and 2. can become completely immune to all of Saber's hax at will?

Also like, do you have evidence of it being thought based? Reimu's FN is an extension of her state of mind so that's pretty easy. Scans of him opening with it would be nice as well.

 

[BERRIES555]

I’ll try and send a clip but if it doesn’t load in for you I’ll try to explain it.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

How is Saber overcoming Musou Tensei?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

He isn't. Those thought-based plot hax better be real convincing if he stands a chance.

 

[Robo432343]

And how will he do that when Reimu 1. has victory tilted in her favor via probability hax

coz plot hax>probability hax or it stops him from losing unless the probability hax has been shown to neg plot hax

, and 2. can become completely immune to all of Saber's hax at will?

no way shes becoming immune to plot hax

Also like, do you have evidence of it being thought based? Reimu's FN is an extension of her state of mind so that's pretty easy. Scans of him opening with it would be nice as well.

idek what that means but some supporter probably has it

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

coz plot hax>probability hax or it stops him from losing unless the probability hax has been shown to neg plot hax

...Which doesn't even matter because the probability hax are always coming first. KR having thought-based hax is NOT outspeeding passive hax.

no way shes becoming immune to plot hax

She doesn't have to. Saber just straight up does not have the range to affect her in this state.

 

[BERRIES555]

And how will he do that when Reimu 1. has victory tilted in her favor via probability hax, and 2. can become completely immune to all of Saber's hax at will?

Also like, do you have evidence of it being thought based? Reimu's FN is an extension of her state of mind so that's pretty easy. Scans of him opening with it would be nice as well.

For the first part, how does it work? Cause the way you describe it makes it seems like it just makes her hard to hit and gives her victory ensured. For the second one, is it like, through an ability or something? Cause if so, would she do it as a leading move, cause you said her leading move is the perception manip.

Actually, looking back on the clip it’s pretty ambiguous on how he actually uses his plot Hax. He kinda just, does it. Here’s the clip.

So, a bit of context, the entire world is destroyed and it’s concepts (Time, Void, Reality, Probabilities). The way they are created is through stories and ideas. With the powers of Wonder Almighty, Saber is capable of creating stories and restoring concepts. This also extends to people, as their own life would be written out as a Wonder Book for Saber to rewrite.

 

[Robo432343]

...Which doesn't even matter because the probability hax are always coming first. KR having thought-based hax is NOT outspeeding passive hax.

the probability hax makes her impossible to hit yeah? thing is sabers plot hax is thought based so he doesn't need to hit her and its not insta kill so saber has just enough time to use it

She doesn't have to. Saber just straight up does not have the range to affect her in this state.

so uh thought based plot hax vs thought based 2-B spatial intangibility makes it incon??

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

the probability hax makes her impossible to hit yeah? thing is sabers plot hax is thought based so he doesn't need to hit her

Passive speed probability hax pretty much means that the fight is rigged in her favor and increases the chances of her victory route happening, which also affects the odds of Saber doing plot hax as an opening move, which leads into...

so uh thought based plot hax vs thought based 2-B spatial intangibility makes it incon??

The fact that Reimu gets things tipped in her favor means that by the time Saber attempts plot hax, Reimu will already be floating out of the range of his abilities, totally unaffected.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

the probability hax makes her impossible to hit yeah? thing is sabers plot hax is thought based so he doesn't need to hit her and its not insta kill so saber has just enough time to use it

So you're telling me Saber is going to have enough time, skipping straight to plot hax before going through all 20 of his forms in true tokusatsu fashion?

Reimu doesn't even have that kind of patience at all.

 

[Robo432343]

So you're telling me Saber is going to have enough time, skipping straight to plot hax before going through all 20 of his forms in true tokusatsu fashion?

SBA assumes he's already in that fashion

 

[BERRIES555]

Wonder Guardian doesn’t have his 20+ forms, it’s just that one form. The only thing that Touma does as the Wonder Guardian is plot hax

 

[Robo432343]

Passive speed probability hax pretty much means that the fight is rigged in her favor and increases the chances of her victory route happening, which also affects the odds of Saber doing plot hax as an opening move,

its not like its completely stopping saber from using plot hax unless you can show me her probability hax negging plot hax

which leads into...

into what

The fact that Reimu gets things tipped in her favor means that by the time Saber attempts plot hax, Reimu will already be floating out of the range of his abilities, totally unaffected.

yuh she just has a higher chance of winning, its not insta win tho
if her probability hax is insta kill then saber wouldn't have time to use thought based plot hax and its gg

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

For the first part, how does it work? Cause the way you describe it makes it seems like it just makes her hard to hit and gives her victory ensured. For the second one, is it like, through an ability or something? Cause if so, would she do it as a leading move, cause you said her leading move is the perception manip.

Basically, Reimu has the ability to float, which is not only flight, but a state of mind. Typically just a general disposition towards life where she acts without a care in the world, but Fantasy Nature takes it to the next level by having her "float" outside of reality itself. Yeah, it says "all sorts of things", but that translation is incorrect and it more likely means "everything that exists". This is supported by how characters who are said to have control over all of reality cannot interact with her in this state.

I only said it's her leading move because it's the most likely way she'll win, so the probability hax will tilt her towards using it. Like I said, if she can win, she will.

So, a bit of context, the entire world is destroyed and it’s concepts (Time, Void, Reality, Probabilities). The way they are created is through stories and ideas. With the powers of Wonder Almighty, Saber is capable of creating stories and restoring concepts. This also extends to people, as their own life would be written out as a Wonder Book for Saber to rewrite.

I'm gonna keep it real with you, this does not imply thought-based hax at all lol

so uh thought based plot hax vs thought based 2-B spatial intangibility makes it incon??

No, because Reimu has wincons after she uses her spatial intang, and her probability hax means she'll be more likely to use her intangibility before Saber uses his plothax.

Wonder Guardian doesn’t have his 20+ forms, it’s just that one form. The only thing that Touma does as the Wonder Guardian is plot hax

I can kinda see the logic here, but he does have access to his civilian form/base form abilities, no?

yuh she just has a higher chance of winning, its not insta win tho
if her probability hax is insta kill then saber wouldn't have time to use thought based plot hax and its gg

They can both instawin with thought-based hax, so it's a 50/50, which means that if Reimu passively improves her odds of winning (which she does)... Well, I'll let you do the math.

 

[Robo432343]

They can both instawin with thought-based hax, so it's a 50/50, which means that if Reimu passively improves her odds of winning (which she does)... Well, I'll let you do the math.

thats where things go wrong coz plot hax destroys probability hax by default
if it was status effect inducement or something that was being used then reimu would be allowed to improve her odds of winning and just crush
but thats not the case

 

[BERRIES555]

I'm gonna keep it real with you, this does not imply thought-based hax at all lol



I can kinda see the logic here, but he does have access to his civilian form/base form abilities, no?

At the very end, Touma says “We need to bring everyone back,” or something along those lines. We then see the Wonder Book glow and then immediately everyone comes back, this includes their Wonder Books which contain concepts. I think that’s thought-based imo, at the very least speech-based.

While yes, Touma does has access to all his civilian abilities, he ONLY does plot hax. Plot hax is quite literally the only thing he does as the Wonder Guardian.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

At the very end, Touma says “We need to bring everyone back,” or something along those lines. We then see the Wonder Book glow and then immediately everyone comes back, this includes their Wonder Books which contain concepts. I think that’s thought-based imo, at the very least speech-based.

While yes, Touma does has access to all his civilian abilities, he ONLY does plot hax. Plot hax is quite literally the only thing he does as the Wonder Guardian.

I feel like that's taking minimal context and extrapolating waaaaay too much from it. I don't think there's enough there to say that he thinks and the world bends to his will.

Also like, does he ever enter Wonder Guardian form again? Because if the only time he uses his plot hax is after everyone has been erased from existence, it feels like a massive reach to say he'd use it in a 1-on-1 against someone he's never met before. Might just be the consequence of having a form with not a lot of screentime, idk.

thats where things go wrong coz plot hax destroys probability hax by default
if it was status effect inducement or something that was being used then reimu would be allowed to improve her odds of winning and just crush
but thats not the case

What?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

thats where things go wrong coz plot hax destroys probability hax by default

There's no basis for that with the context presented out here. Saber's plothax isn't of a range to affect Reimu once she starts floating outside of reality.

 

[Robo432343]

There's no basis for that with the context presented out here. Saber's plothax isn't of a range to affect Reimu once she starts floating outside of reality.

plot hax would already be activated by then

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thought based hax > Passive hax? news to me!

 

[BERRIES555]

I feel like that's taking minimal context and extrapolating waaaaay too much from it. I don't think there's enough there to say that he thinks and the world bends to his will.

Also like, does he ever enter Wonder Guardian form again? Because if the only time he uses his plot hax is after everyone has been erased from existence, it feels like a massive reach to say he'd use it in a 1-on-1 against someone he's never met before. Might just be the consequence of having a form with not a lot of screentime, idk.

Well I mean, what do you expect. All we got were 5 minutes of screen time and a time skip lol. i also don’t know what else could this be classed under. Cause speech-based I get but he only says to bring people back, not the books. He’s not doing a physical action, so it can’t be that. So I’d assume it’s thought-based, no?

I kid you not, after leaving the Wonder World, he doesn’t access this again. He doesn’t even bring the Wonder Almighty Book with him either. So yeah, literally 5 minutes of screen time.

 

[BERRIES555]

There's no basis for that with the context presented out here. Saber's plothax isn't of a range to affect Reimu once she starts floating outside of reality.

Floating has her outside of reality right. Touma could affect the wonder books which are what makes up things like Time, space, Void, etc, etc. Shouldn’t that allow him to effect someone outside of reality as he’s able to effect things that make up reality?

 

[Robo432343]

Floating has her outside of reality right. Touma could affect the wonder books which are what makes up things like Time, space, Void, etc, etc. Shouldn’t that allow him to effect someone outside of reality as he’s able to effect things that make up reality?

no, thats just conceptual 2-C plot hax range

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

If the situation was what specifically prompted Saber to use plothax, but nothing Reimu does causes a similar situation to happen, then wouldn't Saber's default opening moves as a character take precedence here over "this form used plot hax in its only appearance, therefore plothax."

That's just my opinion though. My vote goes to Reimu because her passive hax kind of screw over Saber here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Floating has her outside of reality right. Touma could affect the wonder books which are what makes up things like Time, space, Void, etc, etc. Shouldn’t that allow him to effect someone outside of reality as he’s able to effect things that make up reality?

No, Reimu's intangibility has 2-B range. Saber has 2-C range at best.

Well I mean, what do you expect. All we got were 5 minutes of screen time and a time skip lol. i also don’t know what else could this be classed under. Cause speech-based I get but he only says to bring people back, not the books. He’s not doing a physical action, so it can’t be that. So I’d assume it’s thought-based, no?

I kid you not, after leaving the Wonder World, he doesn’t access this again. He doesn’t even bring the Wonder Almighty Book with him either. So yeah, literally 5 minutes of screen time.

Yeah I'm with Donnelly on this, doesn't seem like something he'd just bust out on a whim.

 

[BERRIES555]

I see what you two mean, my only problem with that is the fact he doesn’t have any of his rider abilities, he doesn’t have Rekka so he doesn’t have any offensive abilities either. He only has the abilities he innately has like his perception and precog. The only way he would has access to his Rider and Rekka abilities is if he rewrite his story to have him get those abilities. The only way to do that, would be through his haxes.

 

[Robo432343]

does reimu resist conceptual fate hax? if its just regular resistance then uh

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I see what you two mean, my only problem with that is the fact he doesn’t have any of his rider abilities, he doesn’t have Rekka so he doesn’t have any offensive abilities either. He only has the abilities he innately has like his perception and precog. The only way he would has access to his Rider and Rekka abilities is if he rewrite his story to have him get those abilities. The only way to do that, would be through his haxes.

His profile says he has his base form rider abilities, though?

does reimu resist conceptual fate hax? if its just regular resistance then uh

Nah, but this is a fight where they kinda need to be passive or Reimu still wins.

 

[Robo432343]

His profile says he has his base form rider abilities, though?

and the only way to get that is to rewrite his story

 

[BERRIES555]

His profile says he has his base form rider abilities, though?

That’s because the Wonder Almighty was able to give Touma his rider powers before. The only problem is that he’ll need Rekka (His Sword) to access them and at the first shot, he see that the only thing Touma has is Wonder Almighty. Touma does have to power to give himself his rider powers but it’ll be through his haxes and not by what he’s normally go to, which is Rekka.