- 31,192
- 27,380
Nah, not really. The title is somewhat of an exaggeration as only a few characters should be affected by this.
This primarily concerns the manga continuity of Dragon Ball Super and the current scaling chains we have for the characters that currently has it so that virtually everyone is scaling from Super Saiyan God Goku in the Beerus Saga.
To put it simply, our scaling for Goku currently looks a bit like this:
My proposal is that it would end up looking like this:
There are a few reasons why I believe this to be the better representation of the scaling chain, at least in the manga.
1) In the Beerus Saga, Goku fights a suppressed Beerus as a Super Saiyan God throughout their battle. He does not revert back to a ordinary Super Saiyan as he does in the anime/movie. As such there is no statement given that Goku has "absorbed Super Saiyan God's power as his own." He has no sudden power boost of being able to fight at the level of Super Saiyan God while in his base form or as an ordinary Super Saiyan.
2) In the promotional material for the Resurrection F film which we currently use on Goku's page, it says this:
What this means to me is what I've depicted above in the proposed scaling diagram.
If we go by what is said for the Resurrection F Saga then while Goku and Vegeta can tap into their god-like power, this is not their default base form. Moreover if they attempt to use Super Saiyan while as 'god-like Saiyans' then they will transform into Super Saiyan Blue.
This is supported by the partial manga adaptation of the Resurrection F Saga which depicts Goku sparring with Whis while an image of Super Saiyan God is overlaid in the background. What this implies is that when Goku is "gaining control of god-like power without changing form" he is effectively using Super Saiyan God without transforming. It's not a case of him simply permanently raising his base stats to be equal to Super Saiyan God.
3) As support for the above, when asked about how many transformations Goku has prior to the Tournament of Power, Whis answers that Goku has five transformations available; Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. No mention is made of him having a separate "Saiyan Beyond God" form so in order for this count to make sense, Goku's earlier usage of "God-like power" must be his Super Saiyan God form.
4) Some things appear to make more sense if we accept that when Goku is using ordinary Super Saiyan froms that he isn't tapping into "god-like power". When Future Trunks returns to the past and spars with Goku, his Super Saiyan 2 form is comparable to Goku's own Super Saiyan 2 form, with the only comment on his power level beind that he is "much better than Gohan [when Gohan first unlocked SSJ2]".
Then when Goku shifts up a level into Super Saiyan 3, Trunks also powers up with his Super Saiyan 2 Rage form which Vegeta confirms is comparable in power to Goku's Super Saiyan 3. However when Goku shifts into God form - implied to be Super Saiyan God - he instantly and literally stomps Trunks.
If Trunks had somehow risen in power to level of a Super Saiyan God on his own, that would be much more significant to comment on than him just being compared to SSJ2 and SSJ3. Why would Trunks' only be commented on as being way stronger than a SSJ2 Gohan if the actual level he was at was SSJ God?
Moreover, we see that just a few years before the events of the Future Trunks Saga where Trunks travels back in time, Trunks was comparable to Dabura who he defeated by unlocking Super Saiyan 2. With no strong enemies to fight against and no shortcut training, there is nothing implying Trunks could have elevated himself to the level of a Super Saiyan God by the time Goku Black begins his invasion of Earth. What we do see is that though Trunks has elevated his power by a somewhat more reasonable level in that time - up to the level of a Super Saiyan 3 as stated above - but that is all he has going for him.
5) Likewise Piccolo's battle with Frost in the Universe 6 Saga makes more sense as well. Goku is able to handle final form Frost with just his basic Super Saiyan form, only losing to a hidden weapon. Piccolo - who up to this point has not had any implications of undergoing massive training or other power boosts that could explain him suddenly reaching Super Saiyan God-levels of power is stated to have no chance against final form Frost and while he can keep up with him somewhat his aim is a battle of attrition. This revision would make Piccolo's sudden jump in power a lot less sudden as he would not be Super Saiyan God-level here, but only somewhat inferior to Goku as a regular Super Saiyan.
6) In Goku's battle with Toppo prior to the Tournament of Power, we get one of the clearest displays in my view that there is a huge difference in power between Goku as he is normally and Goku when he is tapping into "God-like power". He goes through his conventional forms of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 - however when he announces that he is going to use Super Saiyan God, he states that he'll be on at an "entirely different level". His power catches the attention of several Gods of Destruction and it is only at this point that it is commented on that the battle is "at the level of [the Gods of Destruction]". If base Goku was Low Multiverse level and capable of the same feats as the Gods of Destruction... this statement wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is only when he is explicitly using God power that he has reached the threshold of the Gods of Destruction. This should point to a clear division in power between Goku's earlier forms and his SSJ God and SSJ Blue forms.
7) This emphasis on the God forms being a substantial leap higher than the regular Super Saiyan forms is repeated in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga, where in Goku's sparring match with Merus, Goku shifts up from Super Saiyan 3 to his Super Saiyan God form and the resulting energy is powerful enough to damage the sparring chamber.
To summarize all of the above in a few brief points;
Characters affected by this:
Characters still at Super Saiyan God level and above:
Votes
Agree: Damage3245, Hasty12345, Greatsage13th, Ednaxel2, Maverick Zero X, Jaakor48, DarlingAurora, DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral: Vietthai96, ScalingRandomVerse, Killerdrone123, Veronica
Disagree: CloverDragon03, RenderGK
This primarily concerns the manga continuity of Dragon Ball Super and the current scaling chains we have for the characters that currently has it so that virtually everyone is scaling from Super Saiyan God Goku in the Beerus Saga.
To put it simply, our scaling for Goku currently looks a bit like this:
My proposal is that it would end up looking like this:
There are a few reasons why I believe this to be the better representation of the scaling chain, at least in the manga.
1) In the Beerus Saga, Goku fights a suppressed Beerus as a Super Saiyan God throughout their battle. He does not revert back to a ordinary Super Saiyan as he does in the anime/movie. As such there is no statement given that Goku has "absorbed Super Saiyan God's power as his own." He has no sudden power boost of being able to fight at the level of Super Saiyan God while in his base form or as an ordinary Super Saiyan.
2) In the promotional material for the Resurrection F film which we currently use on Goku's page, it says this:
What this means to me is what I've depicted above in the proposed scaling diagram.
If we go by what is said for the Resurrection F Saga then while Goku and Vegeta can tap into their god-like power, this is not their default base form. Moreover if they attempt to use Super Saiyan while as 'god-like Saiyans' then they will transform into Super Saiyan Blue.
This is supported by the partial manga adaptation of the Resurrection F Saga which depicts Goku sparring with Whis while an image of Super Saiyan God is overlaid in the background. What this implies is that when Goku is "gaining control of god-like power without changing form" he is effectively using Super Saiyan God without transforming. It's not a case of him simply permanently raising his base stats to be equal to Super Saiyan God.
3) As support for the above, when asked about how many transformations Goku has prior to the Tournament of Power, Whis answers that Goku has five transformations available; Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. No mention is made of him having a separate "Saiyan Beyond God" form so in order for this count to make sense, Goku's earlier usage of "God-like power" must be his Super Saiyan God form.
4) Some things appear to make more sense if we accept that when Goku is using ordinary Super Saiyan froms that he isn't tapping into "god-like power". When Future Trunks returns to the past and spars with Goku, his Super Saiyan 2 form is comparable to Goku's own Super Saiyan 2 form, with the only comment on his power level beind that he is "much better than Gohan [when Gohan first unlocked SSJ2]".
Then when Goku shifts up a level into Super Saiyan 3, Trunks also powers up with his Super Saiyan 2 Rage form which Vegeta confirms is comparable in power to Goku's Super Saiyan 3. However when Goku shifts into God form - implied to be Super Saiyan God - he instantly and literally stomps Trunks.
If Trunks had somehow risen in power to level of a Super Saiyan God on his own, that would be much more significant to comment on than him just being compared to SSJ2 and SSJ3. Why would Trunks' only be commented on as being way stronger than a SSJ2 Gohan if the actual level he was at was SSJ God?
Moreover, we see that just a few years before the events of the Future Trunks Saga where Trunks travels back in time, Trunks was comparable to Dabura who he defeated by unlocking Super Saiyan 2. With no strong enemies to fight against and no shortcut training, there is nothing implying Trunks could have elevated himself to the level of a Super Saiyan God by the time Goku Black begins his invasion of Earth. What we do see is that though Trunks has elevated his power by a somewhat more reasonable level in that time - up to the level of a Super Saiyan 3 as stated above - but that is all he has going for him.
5) Likewise Piccolo's battle with Frost in the Universe 6 Saga makes more sense as well. Goku is able to handle final form Frost with just his basic Super Saiyan form, only losing to a hidden weapon. Piccolo - who up to this point has not had any implications of undergoing massive training or other power boosts that could explain him suddenly reaching Super Saiyan God-levels of power is stated to have no chance against final form Frost and while he can keep up with him somewhat his aim is a battle of attrition. This revision would make Piccolo's sudden jump in power a lot less sudden as he would not be Super Saiyan God-level here, but only somewhat inferior to Goku as a regular Super Saiyan.
6) In Goku's battle with Toppo prior to the Tournament of Power, we get one of the clearest displays in my view that there is a huge difference in power between Goku as he is normally and Goku when he is tapping into "God-like power". He goes through his conventional forms of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 - however when he announces that he is going to use Super Saiyan God, he states that he'll be on at an "entirely different level". His power catches the attention of several Gods of Destruction and it is only at this point that it is commented on that the battle is "at the level of [the Gods of Destruction]". If base Goku was Low Multiverse level and capable of the same feats as the Gods of Destruction... this statement wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is only when he is explicitly using God power that he has reached the threshold of the Gods of Destruction. This should point to a clear division in power between Goku's earlier forms and his SSJ God and SSJ Blue forms.
7) This emphasis on the God forms being a substantial leap higher than the regular Super Saiyan forms is repeated in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga, where in Goku's sparring match with Merus, Goku shifts up from Super Saiyan 3 to his Super Saiyan God form and the resulting energy is powerful enough to damage the sparring chamber.
To summarize all of the above in a few brief points;
- Goku and Vegeta are not using "God-like power" all of the time because if they did then they would never use regular Super Saiyan forms. It is stated in the promotional material and shown in the Resurrection F Saga that if a Saiyan uses "God-like power" and goes Super Saiyan then they will use Super Saiyan Blue.
- There are consistent narrative showings that Goku utilizing "God-like power" / activating Super Saiyan God is a massively higher level of power than otherwise.
- This means that there are instances we can see that the characters are not using "God-like power" as proven by the usage of their Super Saiyan states:
- When Goku and Vegeta are fighting in the Universe 6 tournament, they are not using "God-like power" until they transform into Super Saiyan Blue. Goku's battle against Frost and Botamo does not feature "God-like power".
- When Goku is sparring with Future Trunks, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God to overwhelm him.
- When Goku is sparring with a suppressed Toppo, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue against full power Toppo.
- When Goku is sparring with Merus, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God and destroys the sparring chamber.
Characters affected by this:
- Son Goku
- Vegeta
- Cabba
- Botmato
- Auta Magetta
- Frost
- Piccolo
- Future Trunks
- Goku Black (Pre-Zamasu Heal)
- Zamasu
Characters still at Super Saiyan God level and above:
- Hit
- Golden Frieza
- Goku Black (Post-Zamasu Heal) / Goku Black (SSJR)
- Fused Zamasu
- Toppo (Full Power)
- Jiren
- Kale (LSSJ)
- Kefla
- Son Gohan (Tournament of Power)
- Android 17
- Android 18
- Etc.
Votes
Agree: Damage3245, Hasty12345, Greatsage13th, Ednaxel2, Maverick Zero X, Jaakor48, DarlingAurora, DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral: Vietthai96, ScalingRandomVerse, Killerdrone123, Veronica
Disagree: CloverDragon03, RenderGK
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