Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade

[Damage3245]

Nah, not really. The title is somewhat of an exaggeration as only a few characters should be affected by this.

This primarily concerns the manga continuity of Dragon Ball Super and the current scaling chains we have for the characters that currently has it so that virtually everyone is scaling from Super Saiyan God Goku in the Beerus Saga.

To put it simply, our scaling for Goku currently looks a bit like this:

Spoiler: Current Scaling

My proposal is that it would end up looking like this:

Spoiler: Proposed Scaling

There are a few reasons why I believe this to be the better representation of the scaling chain, at least in the manga.

1) In the Beerus Saga, Goku fights a suppressed Beerus as a Super Saiyan God throughout their battle. He does not revert back to a ordinary Super Saiyan as he does in the anime/movie. As such there is no statement given that Goku has "absorbed Super Saiyan God's power as his own." He has no sudden power boost of being able to fight at the level of Super Saiyan God while in his base form or as an ordinary Super Saiyan.

2) In the promotional material for the Resurrection F film which we currently use on Goku's page, it says this:

It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power without changing form. But if those god-like Saians change into Super Saiyans.... then the power of a Super Saiyan God SS is born. becuase of this new form Goku and Vegeta achieve that strength that goes beyond legend!

What this means to me is what I've depicted above in the proposed scaling diagram.

If we go by what is said for the Resurrection F Saga then while Goku and Vegeta can tap into their god-like power, this is not their default base form. Moreover if they attempt to use Super Saiyan while as 'god-like Saiyans' then they will transform into Super Saiyan Blue.

This is supported by the partial manga adaptation of the Resurrection F Saga which depicts Goku sparring with Whis while an image of Super Saiyan God is overlaid in the background. What this implies is that when Goku is "gaining control of god-like power without changing form" he is effectively using Super Saiyan God without transforming. It's not a case of him simply permanently raising his base stats to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

3) As support for the above, when asked about how many transformations Goku has prior to the Tournament of Power, Whis answers that Goku has five transformations available; Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. No mention is made of him having a separate "Saiyan Beyond God" form so in order for this count to make sense, Goku's earlier usage of "God-like power" must be his Super Saiyan God form.

4) Some things appear to make more sense if we accept that when Goku is using ordinary Super Saiyan froms that he isn't tapping into "god-like power". When Future Trunks returns to the past and spars with Goku, his Super Saiyan 2 form is comparable to Goku's own Super Saiyan 2 form, with the only comment on his power level beind that he is "much better than Gohan [when Gohan first unlocked SSJ2]".

Then when Goku shifts up a level into Super Saiyan 3, Trunks also powers up with his Super Saiyan 2 Rage form which Vegeta confirms is comparable in power to Goku's Super Saiyan 3. However when Goku shifts into God form - implied to be Super Saiyan God - he instantly and literally stomps Trunks.

If Trunks had somehow risen in power to level of a Super Saiyan God on his own, that would be much more significant to comment on than him just being compared to SSJ2 and SSJ3. Why would Trunks' only be commented on as being way stronger than a SSJ2 Gohan if the actual level he was at was SSJ God?

Moreover, we see that just a few years before the events of the Future Trunks Saga where Trunks travels back in time, Trunks was comparable to Dabura who he defeated by unlocking Super Saiyan 2. With no strong enemies to fight against and no shortcut training, there is nothing implying Trunks could have elevated himself to the level of a Super Saiyan God by the time Goku Black begins his invasion of Earth. What we do see is that though Trunks has elevated his power by a somewhat more reasonable level in that time - up to the level of a Super Saiyan 3 as stated above - but that is all he has going for him.

5) Likewise Piccolo's battle with Frost in the Universe 6 Saga makes more sense as well. Goku is able to handle final form Frost with just his basic Super Saiyan form, only losing to a hidden weapon. Piccolo - who up to this point has not had any implications of undergoing massive training or other power boosts that could explain him suddenly reaching Super Saiyan God-levels of power is stated to have no chance against final form Frost and while he can keep up with him somewhat his aim is a battle of attrition. This revision would make Piccolo's sudden jump in power a lot less sudden as he would not be Super Saiyan God-level here, but only somewhat inferior to Goku as a regular Super Saiyan.

6) In Goku's battle with Toppo prior to the Tournament of Power, we get one of the clearest displays in my view that there is a huge difference in power between Goku as he is normally and Goku when he is tapping into "God-like power". He goes through his conventional forms of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 - however when he announces that he is going to use Super Saiyan God, he states that he'll be on at an "entirely different level". His power catches the attention of several Gods of Destruction and it is only at this point that it is commented on that the battle is "at the level of [the Gods of Destruction]". If base Goku was Low Multiverse level and capable of the same feats as the Gods of Destruction... this statement wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is only when he is explicitly using God power that he has reached the threshold of the Gods of Destruction. This should point to a clear division in power between Goku's earlier forms and his SSJ God and SSJ Blue forms.

7) This emphasis on the God forms being a substantial leap higher than the regular Super Saiyan forms is repeated in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga, where in Goku's sparring match with Merus, Goku shifts up from Super Saiyan 3 to his Super Saiyan God form and the resulting energy is powerful enough to damage the sparring chamber.

---

To summarize all of the above in a few brief points;

• Goku and Vegeta are not using "God-like power" all of the time because if they did then they would never use regular Super Saiyan forms. It is stated in the promotional material and shown in the Resurrection F Saga that if a Saiyan uses "God-like power" and goes Super Saiyan then they will use Super Saiyan Blue.
  • There are consistent narrative showings that Goku utilizing "God-like power" / activating Super Saiyan God is a massively higher level of power than otherwise.
• This means that there are instances we can see that the characters are not using "God-like power" as proven by the usage of their Super Saiyan states:
  • When Goku and Vegeta are fighting in the Universe 6 tournament, they are not using "God-like power" until they transform into Super Saiyan Blue. Goku's battle against Frost and Botamo does not feature "God-like power".
  • When Goku is sparring with Future Trunks, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God to overwhelm him.
  • When Goku is sparring with a suppressed Toppo, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue against full power Toppo.
  • When Goku is sparring with Merus, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God and destroys the sparring chamber.

Therefore the characters who do not face "God-like power" should not be scaling to the level of "Super Saiyan God" and should not be Low Multiverse level.

Characters affected by this:

• Son Goku
• Vegeta
• Cabba
• Botmato
• Auta Magetta
• Frost
• Piccolo
• Future Trunks
• Goku Black (Pre-Zamasu Heal)
• Zamasu

This naturally doesn't affect everyone. There are still those who fought against Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue, Goku and Vegeta and characters on their level, as such they keep their ratings.

Characters still at Super Saiyan God level and above:

• Hit
• Golden Frieza
• Goku Black (Post-Zamasu Heal) / Goku Black (SSJR)
• Fused Zamasu
• Toppo (Full Power)
• Jiren
• Kale (LSSJ)
• Kefla
• Son Gohan (Tournament of Power)
• Android 17
• Android 18
• Etc.

That's the proposal in a nutshell. I know that things won't be perfect here and there'll still be inevitable issues with scaling as is the case always with Dragon Ball but frankly our current scaling isn't perfect either. Right now we have to deal with the notion that virtually everyone in the series inexplicably become multiverse-destroyers in a very short span of time and oftentimes with little to no explanation. This revision doesn't completely erase that but it does mitigate the issues a bit and I don't mind if this only ends up being applied to the manga continuity.

---

Votes

Agree: Damage3245, Hasty12345, Greatsage13th, Ednaxel2, Maverick Zero X, Jaakor48, DarlingAurora, DarkDragonMedeus

Neutral: Vietthai96, ScalingRandomVerse, Killerdrone123, Veronica

Disagree: CloverDragon03, RenderGK

 

[Vietthai96]

So, in short, most peoples aside from Goku, Vegeta and Hit (who do not have a manga profile) from BoG to first half of Future Trunks/Black Goku Saga lose their 2-C scaling???

 

[Hasty12345]

This is one of those revisions I don't want to agree with, but I recognise the evidence in the manga continuity for this scaling isn't as strong as in Toei.

So I do tentatively agree unless suitable evidence is put forth to contradict the thread's premise.

I will actively voice my change in opinion though, so put me in as agree with the downgrade for now.

 

[Damage3245]

So, in short, most peoples aside from Goku, Vegeta and Hit (who do not have a manga profile) from BoG to first half of Future Trunks/Black Goku Saga lose their 2-C scaling???

Essentially, yes.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, i'm neutral, i can see the reason behind the thread, but since it have been a long time reading these chapters i forgot many thing, i will wait for other arguments to decide

 

[Greatsage13th]

The proposal is logical, I agree with it.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree with the manga, gonna stay neutral for the anime

But if this gets accepted then we gotta have to continue the chain scaling...best to prepare that

 

[Ednaxel2]

What what am I saying this is only manga lmao

 

[Greatsage13th]

What what am I saying this is only manga lmao

Lel

 

[ScalingRandomVerse]

This will only effect the Manga character (if there is no Goku absorbing God ki in base in manga)
And isn't it already assumed that he didn't in the Manga?

 

[Ednaxel2]

Correct me if I'm wrong but he should be 2-C in base by the Granolah Saga, since he was fighting Gas in SSB who is far stronger than SSB Gogeta, who is superior to Broly Saga SSB Goku and Vegeta in base

 

[Damage3245]

This will only effect the Manga character (if there is no Goku absorbing God ki in base in manga)
And isn't it already assumed that he didn't in the Manga?

No, Goku's Resurrection F Saga key currently says this for his manga profile:

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level with Super Saiyan God (Capable of shaking the macrocosm as well as eventually destroying it) and later in base (Is shown and stated to have absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his base form)

This thread aims to change the latter part of that.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Makes sense. Agree with the revisions.

 

[ScalingRandomVerse]

The image you posted says 'saiyan can gain God-like power without changing form'
Isn't that the proof for god ki absorption in base unless of course SSG is not 2-C in the Manga.
Neutral for now (not that it matters).

 

[Damage3245]

The image you posted says 'saiyan can gain God-like power without changing form'
Isn't that the proof for god ki absorption in base unless of course SSG is not 2-C in the Manga.

The point being that it is not permanent; otherwise they'd never be able to transform into their regular Super Saiyan states.

 

[Jaakor48]

I've always agreed that the manga didn't have god level forms in base unlike the anime, until the black saga where they got ridiculous boosts post black Zenkai

Saiyan beyond God was a concept brought up and in RoF and dumped in RoF

 

[Jaakor48]

Correct me if I'm wrong but he should be 2-C in base by the Granolah Saga, since he was fighting Gas in SSB who is far stronger than SSB Gogeta, who is superior to Broly Saga SSB Goku and Vegeta in base

Base 2c starts from the FT saga specifically after Vegeta's ROSAT training

 

[DarlingAurora]

Agreed.

 

[Damage3245]

Base 2c starts from the FT saga specifically after Vegeta's ROSAT training

I don't think that's necessarily the case in the manga but can get into the specifics of the new scaling chain once this thread's premise is accepted.

 

[Jaakor48]

I don't think that's necessarily the case in the manga

Basically
Post Zenkai ssj black beat SSB Vegeta which means base black was god level
Post ROSAT SSB Vegeta then was stronger than SSR black

Unlike the anime where SSR is basically just an SSJ boost, in the manga it's an SSB boost

For SSB Vegeta to beat SSR black, it means Vegeta is stronger than black in equal forms, thus god level base

but can get into the specifics of the new scaling chain once this thread's premise is accepted.

Sure

 

[Ednaxel2]

Here's what the potential chain scaling changes look like:
Note: Buu Saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 1x

Spoiler: Chain Scaling

Beginning of Super (Manga)​

• As a Super Saiyan alone Goku believed he could take on Kid Buu, who his Super Saiyan 3 Buu Saga self couldn't defeat. Vegeta is comparable to him - 1x
  • Base Goku and Vegeta are 1/50th Super Saiyan - 0.02x
  • Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta are 2x Super Saiyan - 2x
  • Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 4x Super Saiyan 2 - 8x

Pre-Goku Black Zenkai​

• Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku - 8x
  • Base Trunks is 1/100th Super Saiyan 2 - 0.08x
  • Super Saiyan Trunks is 50x base - 4x
• Goku Black is superior to Super Saiyan 2 Trunks - 8x
  • Super Saiyan Goku Black is 50x base - 400x
• Post-Gravity Training Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta can fight Super Saiyan Goku Black. Goku is comparable to him - 400x
  • Base Goku and Vegeta are 1/100th Super Saiyan 2 - 4x
  • Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are 50x base - 200x
  • Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 4x Super Saiyan 2 - 3,200x

Everyone beyond this value is 2-C, due to Goku Black's base finitely back-scaling from his Super Saiyan self, who Post-Zenkai can stomp Training Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Post-Gravity). With Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (Post-RoSaT) being able to overpower Goku Black's Super Saiyan Rosé form (His version of SSB) which would make him and Goku's base stronger than Goku Black's base, thus them, and anyone who scale to them, are 2-C.

 

[Killerdrone123]

I am neutral right now

 

[Raiden38]

Nah, not really. The title is somewhat of an exaggeration as only a few characters should be affected by this.

This primarily concerns the manga continuity of Dragon Ball Super and the current scaling chains we have for the characters that currently has it so that virtually everyone is scaling from Super Saiyan God Goku in the Beerus Saga.

To put it simply, our scaling for Goku currently looks a bit like this:

Spoiler: Current Scaling

My proposal is that it would end up looking like this:

Spoiler: Proposed Scaling

There are a few reasons why I believe this to be the better representation of the scaling chain, at least in the manga.

1) In the Beerus Saga, Goku fights a suppressed Beerus as a Super Saiyan God throughout their battle. He does not revert back to a ordinary Super Saiyan as he does in the anime/movie. As such there is no statement given that Goku has "absorbed Super Saiyan God's power as his own." He has no sudden power boost of being able to fight at the level of Super Saiyan God while in his base form or as an ordinary Super Saiyan.

2) In the promotional material for the Resurrection F film which we currently use on Goku's page, it says this:



What this means to me is what I've depicted above in the proposed scaling diagram.

If we go by what is said for the Resurrection F Saga then while Goku and Vegeta can tap into their god-like power, this is not their default base form. Moreover if they attempt to use Super Saiyan while as 'god-like Saiyans' then they will transform into Super Saiyan Blue.

This is supported by the partial manga adaptation of the Resurrection F Saga which depicts Goku sparring with Whis while an image of Super Saiyan God is overlaid in the background. What this implies is that when Goku is "gaining control of god-like power without changing form" he is effectively using Super Saiyan God without transforming. It's not a case of him simply permanently raising his base stats to be equal to Super Saiyan God.

3) As support for the above, when asked about how many transformations Goku has prior to the Tournament of Power, Whis answers that Goku has five transformations available; Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. No mention is made of him having a separate "Saiyan Beyond God" form so in order for this count to make sense, Goku's earlier usage of "God-like power" must be his Super Saiyan God form.

4) Some things appear to make more sense if we accept that when Goku is using ordinary Super Saiyan froms that he isn't tapping into "god-like power". When Future Trunks returns to the past and spars with Goku, his Super Saiyan 2 form is comparable to Goku's own Super Saiyan 2 form, with the only comment on his power level beind that he is "much better than Gohan [when Gohan first unlocked SSJ2]".

Then when Goku shifts up a level into Super Saiyan 3, Trunks also powers up with his Super Saiyan 2 Rage form which Vegeta confirms is comparable in power to Goku's Super Saiyan 3. However when Goku shifts into God form - implied to be Super Saiyan God - he instantly and literally stomps Trunks.

If Trunks had somehow risen in power to level of a Super Saiyan God on his own, that would be much more significant to comment on than him just being compared to SSJ2 and SSJ3. Why would Trunks' only be commented on as being way stronger than a SSJ2 Gohan if the actual level he was at was SSJ God?

Moreover, we see that just a few years before the events of the Future Trunks Saga where Trunks travels back in time, Trunks was comparable to Dabura who he defeated by unlocking Super Saiyan 2. With no strong enemies to fight against and no shortcut training, there is nothing implying Trunks could have elevated himself to the level of a Super Saiyan God by the time Goku Black begins his invasion of Earth. What we do see is that though Trunks has elevated his power by a somewhat more reasonable level in that time - up to the level of a Super Saiyan 3 as stated above - but that is all he has going for him.

5) Likewise Piccolo's battle with Frost in the Universe 6 Saga makes more sense as well. Goku is able to handle final form Frost with just his basic Super Saiyan form, only losing to a hidden weapon. Piccolo - who up to this point has not had any implications of undergoing massive training or other power boosts that could explain him suddenly reaching Super Saiyan God-levels of power is stated to have no chance against final form Frost and while he can keep up with him somewhat his aim is a battle of attrition. This revision would make Piccolo's sudden jump in power a lot less sudden as he would not be Super Saiyan God-level here, but only somewhat inferior to Goku as a regular Super Saiyan.

6) In Goku's battle with Toppo prior to the Tournament of Power, we get one of the clearest displays in my view that there is a huge difference in power between Goku as he is normally and Goku when he is tapping into "God-like power". He goes through his conventional forms of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 - however when he announces that he is going to use Super Saiyan God, he states that he'll be on at an "entirely different level". His power catches the attention of several Gods of Destruction and it is only at this point that it is commented on that the battle is "at the level of [the Gods of Destruction]". If base Goku was Low Multiverse level and capable of the same feats as the Gods of Destruction... this statement wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is only when he is explicitly using God power that he has reached the threshold of the Gods of Destruction. This should point to a clear division in power between Goku's earlier forms and his SSJ God and SSJ Blue forms.

7) This emphasis on the God forms being a substantial leap higher than the regular Super Saiyan forms is repeated in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga, where in Goku's sparring match with Merus, Goku shifts up from Super Saiyan 3 to his Super Saiyan God form and the resulting energy is powerful enough to damage the sparring chamber.

---

To summarize all of the above in a few brief points;

• Goku and Vegeta are not using "God-like power" all of the time because if they did then they would never use regular Super Saiyan forms. It is stated in the promotional material and shown in the Resurrection F Saga that if a Saiyan uses "God-like power" and goes Super Saiyan then they will use Super Saiyan Blue.
  • There are consistent narrative showings that Goku utilizing "God-like power" / activating Super Saiyan God is a massively higher level of power than otherwise.
• This means that there are instances we can see that the characters are not using "God-like power" as proven by the usage of their Super Saiyan states:
  • When Goku and Vegeta are fighting in the Universe 6 tournament, they are not using "God-like power" until they transform into Super Saiyan Blue. Goku's battle against Frost and Botamo does not feature "God-like power".
  • When Goku is sparring with Future Trunks, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God to overwhelm him.
  • When Goku is sparring with a suppressed Toppo, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue against full power Toppo.
  • When Goku is sparring with Merus, he does not use "God-like power" until he uses Super Saiyan God and destroys the sparring chamber.

Therefore the characters who do not face "God-like power" should not be scaling to the level of "Super Saiyan God" and should not be Low Multiverse level.

Characters affected by this:

• Son Goku
• Vegeta
• Cabba
• Botmato
• Auta Magetta
• Frost
• Piccolo
• Future Trunks
• Goku Black (Pre-Zamasu Heal)
• Zamasu

This naturally doesn't affect everyone. There are still those who fought against Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue, Goku and Vegeta and characters on their level, as such they keep their ratings.

Characters still at Super Saiyan God level and above:

• Hit
• Golden Frieza
• Goku Black (Post-Zamasu Heal) / Goku Black (SSJR)
• Fused Zamasu
• Toppo (Full Power)
• Jiren
• Kale (LSSJ)
• Kefla
• Son Gohan (Tournament of Power)
• Android 17
• Android 18
• Etc.

That's the proposal in a nutshell. I know that things won't be perfect here and there'll still be inevitable issues with scaling as is the case always with Dragon Ball but frankly our current scaling isn't perfect either. Right now we have to deal with the notion that virtually everyone in the series inexplicably become multiverse-destroyers in a very short span of time and oftentimes with little to no explanation. This revision doesn't completely erase that but it does mitigate the issues a bit and I don't mind if this only ends up being applied to the manga continuity.

---

Votes

Agree: Damage3245, Hasty12345, Greatsage13th, Ednaxel2, Maverick Zero X, Jaakor48, DarlingAurora

Neutral: Vietthai96, ScalingRandomVerse, Killerdrone123

Disagree:

Agree

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

So, we will apply the Saiyan Beyond God state only to DBS manga version?

But as said above, the manga Base Forms at some point will scales to 2-C anyway, due to it starting from the time when Post-First Zamasu Heal SSJ Black battled and eventually overpowered SSB Vegeta, drewing blood from him, with Black growing even stronger after Zamasu healed him a second time, unlocking his Super Saiyan Rosé, stomping SSB Vegeta even harder than before, and after ROSAT, SSG Vegeta is superior to SSR Black, as Vegeta could easily react to Black's attacks time enough to casually switch to his SSB in seconds, and in DB, the transformations makes the speed relative to the user's power, unless it is some kind of special technique/transformation which purpose is to make the user's speed superior to their strength or vice versa, like the SSJ Grade 3

SSJ Caulifla matching and pressuring Final Form Frieza, forcing him to transform into Golden Frieza, who was even stronger than when he fought on par with Saiyan Beyond God Goku during the RoF events

Super Hero Saga Base Piccolo and Base Gohan are capable of holding their own against the heavily suppressed Gammas, who are Moro Saga CSSB Goku and Vegeta level, who can easily overwhelm an Amped Saganbo, who can took on the combined efforts of Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18 and Jaco.

Super Hero Saga Goten and Trunks in SSJ became strong enough to be superior to the full power Gammas due to them being able to make more damage to Cell Max than the Androids and performing better than them against the beast

 

[Veronica]

A lot what you said also applies to the anime like the statement when Goku goes SSB against Toppo,but later on Gowasu said SSJ2 Goku rivals that of a GoD. But what do you lean on? Like should the anime scaling be like the manga?

 

[Damage3245]

A lot what you said also applies to the anime like the statement when Goku goes SSB against Toppo,but later on Gowasu said SSJ2 Goku rivals that of a GoD. But what do you lean on? Like should the anime scaling be like the manga?

I'd prefer to keep this thread focused on fixing the manga; if there's any remaining issues concerning the anime specifically than someone can start a new thread for that after this one is concluded.

 

[Veronica]

So, we will apply the Saiyan Beyond God state only to DBS manga version?

But as said above, the manga Base Forms at some point will scales to 2-C anyway, due to it starting from the time when Post-First Zamasu Heal SSJ Black battled and eventually overpowered SSB Vegeta, drewing blood from him, with Black growing even stronger after Zamasu healed him a second time, unlocking his Super Saiyan Rosé, stomping SSB Vegeta even harder than before, and after ROSAT, SSG Vegeta is superior to SSR Black, as Vegeta could easily react to Black's attacks time enough to casually switch to his SSB in seconds, and in DB, the transformations makes the speed relative to the user's power, unless it is some kind of special technique/transformation which purpose is to make the user's speed superior to their strength or vice versa, like the SSJ Grade 3

SSJ Caulifla matching and pressuring Final Form Frieza, forcing him to transform into Golden Frieza, who was even stronger than when he fought on par with Saiyan Beyond God Goku during the RoF events

Super Hero Saga Base Piccolo and Base Gohan are capable of holding their own against the heavily suppressed Gammas, who are Moro Saga CSSB Goku and Vegeta level, who can easily overwhelm an Amped Saganbo, who can took on the combined efforts of Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18 and Jaco.

Super Hero Saga Goten and Trunks in SSJ became strong enough to be superior to the full power Gammas due to them being able to make more damage to Cell Max than the Androids and performing better than them against the beast

SSJ Goku Black wasn't as strong as SSB Vegeta. Vegeta's training was about switching SSB to SSG, since the SSB that Black fought was far weaker than a regular SSB. As mentioned in the U6 arc and SSB Vegeta was matching SSR Black. Vegeta didn't get stronger, but appeared stronger because he was able to utilize the full power of SSB. There is no powercreep.

 

[Jaakor48]

So, we will apply the Saiyan Beyond God state only to DBS manga version?

It's an RoF only concept, closest thing to Saiyan beyond God is actually Goku black in the anime

But as said above, the manga Base Forms at some point will scales to 2-C anyway,

Yes

A lot what you said also applies to the anime like the statement when Goku goes SSB against Toppo,but later on Gowasu said SSJ2 Goku rivals that of a GoD. But what do you lean on? Like should the anime scaling be like the manga?

SSG power was absorbed into Base in the anime, nothing affects the anime

 

[Ednaxel2]

Like should the anime scaling be like the manga?

They are really different both continuity and inverse scaling wise, I don't think we should cross scale in anyway at all between the two

SSJ Goku Black wasn't as strong as SSB Vegeta

He was matching him, making him bleed and even had the edge in many instances, he most definitely should scale

 

[Veronica]

It's an RoF only concept, closest thing to Saiyan beyond God is actually Goku black in the anime

Yes

SSG power was absorbed into Base in the anime, nothing affects the anime

I know that, it is also brought up in the U6 arc by Whis. But I think that not all of BoG statements are brought up.

 

[Veronica]

They are really different both continuity and inverse scaling wise, I don't think we should cross scale in anyway at all between the two

He was matching him, making him bleed and even had the edge in many instances, he most definitely should scale

It's a far weaker SSB and we saw it dropped to less 1/10 of it making it weaker than the SSG transformation. Later on a full power Vegeta was damaging him so no. Only SSR Black~SSB Vegeta, since Vegeta trianing was only about switching SSG to SSB and there was no power increase. Black saying "What's this enormous power" refers to FP SSB Vegeta compared to the one he fought the one before and we see this again with FP SSB Goku losing to him to able to damage Fused Zamasu even though, base Goku didn't get any stronger. It's just FP SSB is far more powerful than a dwingling one.

 

[Damage3245]

I think we would need more evidence that Vegeta trained hard enough that his base form become Low 2-C in the Future Trunks Saga beyond just backscaling from his performance against Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

Remember that Goku did not go through a training session in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber; he just trained to learn the Mafuba, so you'd be arguing that Vegeta went through a huge power increase that Goku did not.

What seems more likely is that Vegeta's method of insta-switching between God and Blue gave him the edge to catch up with Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

 

[Veronica]

If it gets applied to the anime. Anime RoF Goku likely uses SBG since he matched Final Form Frieza with SSG power base. When he that insane base power is switched to SSG transformation since in the ToP it is SSG Goku~Dypso~Final Form Frieza who was base Goku level in RoF. Unless you think Frieza is constantly 4000 times stronger than base Goku since RoF. While the biggest power boost we see after RoF is only made around ten times. Why else do you think SSG was never used until ToP? Meanwhile SSB is being stated to be stamina consuming so would make no sense for him not to use it prior to ToP. Also SSB is referred as "SSJ with the power of SSG". If regular base with SSJ is the same what differences it from SSB? So If I say "It's a Saiyan going SSJ with the power of SSG". You don't know if I am talking about regular SSJ or SSB, because it only applies to SSB.

 

[Veronica]

I think we would need more evidence that Vegeta trained hard enough that his base form become Low 2-C in the Future Trunks Saga beyond just backscaling from his performance against Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

Remember that Goku did not go through a training session in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber; he just trained to learn the Mafuba, so you'd be arguing that Vegeta went through a huge power increase that Goku did not.

What seems more likely is that Vegeta's method of insta-switching between God and Blue gave him the edge to catch up with Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

True Vegeta got no power increase. It was about switching SSB to SSG to utilize the full power of SSB. Which than matched SSR Black. Your post is almost the same as mine.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I agree with the downgrade. Unlike the anime continuity the manga doesn't have any of its explicit statements that Goku absorbed his first usage of SSG's power into his base form, the sole evidence being statements from promotional material which still used SBG as a basis, so it makes sense to change things around and scale characters who have fought against SSG level and beyond forms or characters. But this talk about the anime continuity and Goku absorbing the power of SSG is pretty ridiculous at this point, and I'm considering doing a revision at some point because I think all this misconception comes from how the argument is worded and ends up causing misconceptions to form.

Though this isn't the time or place to discuss such things so I'll just say once again I agree FRA

 

[Jaakor48]

I think we would need more evidence that Vegeta trained hard enough that his base form become Low 2-C in the Future Trunks Saga beyond just backscaling from his performance against Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

There is no other explanation for him getting whooped by ssj, only to beat up an SSR rose

What seems more likely is that Vegeta's method of insta-switching between God and Blue gave him the edge to catch up with Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

This would also imply his SSG form was able to keep up with SSR black, otherwise he'd just get blitzed before he could switch you'd still end up with 2c base, ssj to SSR is the literal equivalent of ssj to ssB. And if we assume that SSB pre RoSAT was always stronger than black, then it would mean ssj black> SSG vegeta pre RoSAT at the very least, and black had a lot more transformation boosts while Vegeta has just one, vegeta would still have to overcome an SSG+ gap in power

True Vegeta got no power increase. It was about switching SSB to SSG to utilize the full power of SSB. Which than matched SSR Black. Your post is almost the same as mine.

This makes no sense, black was literally only a super Saiyan in their first fight,
If ssj black > SSG Vegeta back then (assuming SSB full power was stronger), why would SSB Vegeta be > SSR black when their both have the same multiplier? He would still wipe the floor with Vegeta, if Vegeta didn't get stronger....that would mean black had a stronger base AND more transformations on top of one that would give him the same boost ssb would gibe Vegeta

 

[RedReaper]

It's a far weaker SSB and we saw it dropped to less 1/10 of it making it weaker than the SSG transformation. Later on a full power Vegeta was damaging him so no. Only SSR Black~SSB Vegeta, since Vegeta trianing was only about switching SSG to SSB and there was no power increase. Black saying "What's this enormous power" refers to FP SSB Vegeta compared to the one he fought the one before and we see this again with FP SSB Goku losing to him to able to damage Fused Zamasu even though, base Goku didn't get any stronger. It's just FP SSB is far more powerful than a dwingling one.

Incorrect. Vegeta was given a Senzu Bean and was put back at max power after SSJ Black's Zenkai, and SSJ Black was still beating on SSB Vegeta. He CERTAINLY scales. It also has to be mentioned that the power switching was only one portion of it. Switching doesn't matter if SSB in itself isn't enough to harm Black, and when Black went SSR Vegeta stood no chance as a SSB. Meaning his SSB level had to be improved in itself, on top of the training he did to his stamina and ability to switch a dime without losing power.

 

[Veronica]

I agree with the downgrade. Unlike the anime continuity the manga doesn't have any of its explicit statements that Goku absorbed his first usage of SSG's power into his base form, the sole evidence being statements from promotional material which still used SBG as a basis, so it makes sense to change things around and scale characters who have fought against SSG level and beyond forms or characters. But this talk about the anime continuity and Goku absorbing the power of SSG is pretty ridiculous at this point, and I'm considering doing a revision at some point because I think all this misconception comes from how the argument is worded and ends up causing misconceptions to form.

Though this isn't the time or place to discuss such things so I'll just say once again I agree FRA

True, but SSG power is also described by Beerus as "forcing me to use this much power". Meaning SSG is a big deal to Beerus since he even regretted it meaning that MUI scales from SSG transformation of power and the base SSG power than 400x with SSJ and than SSG, SSB and MUI on top of it. Otherwise that statement makes no sense if Goku could increase that power hundreds of times without MUI, Kaioken.

 

[Veronica]

There is no other explanation for him getting whooped by ssj, only to beat up an SSR rose

This would also imply his SSG form was able to keep up with SSR black, otherwise he'd just get blitzed before he could switch you'd still end up with 2c base, ssj to SSR is the literal equivalent of ssj to ssB. And if we assume that SSB pre RoSAT was always stronger than black, then it would mean ssj black> SSG vegeta pre RoSAT at the very least, and black had a lot more transformation boosts while Vegeta has just one, vegeta would still have to overcome an SSG+ gap in power


This makes no sense, black was literally only a super Saiyan in their first fight,
If ssj black > SSG Vegeta back then (assuming SSB full power was stronger), why would SSB Vegeta be > SSR black when their both have the same multiplier? He would still wipe the floor with Vegeta, if Vegeta didn't get stronger....that would mean black had a stronger base AND more transformations on top of one that would give him the same boost ssb would gibe Vegeta

You are assuming SSJ Black is stronger than SSG. When we see he isn't able to keep up with Vegeta switching SSG to SSB. SSJ Black is unquantifiable above his previous SSJ level of power.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

True, but SSG power is also described by Beerus as "forcing me to use this much power". Meaning SSG is a big deal to Beerus since he even regretted it meaning that MUI scales from SSG transformation of power and the base SSG power than 400x with SSJ and than SSG, SSB and MUI on top of it. Otherwise that statement makes no sense if Goku could increase that power hundreds of times without MUI, Kaioken.

Didn't Beerus straight up lie about having to use that much power against SSG Goku, something that Whis implies at the end of the arc? I mean Whis straight up compared Goku and Vegeta's power to Beerus' as being like a tree next to Beerus' castle, and even recently with DB Super Hero Beerus is still seen as being stronger then Goku and Vegeta.

So if SSG was apparently seen as a big deal to Beerus, despite him still being superior to Goku, then I think he was bullshitting Goku to motivate him into fighting more.