Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[XDragnoir]

Executioner possibly has a similar fate cutting thing as Vidhatri, but I don't think it needs a separate P&A. Maybe your scan of Alice having all of the transcendents' abilities can support this.

Whether it's through a curse or whatnot, it negates durability of physical beings without needing to land a hit on the opponent.

The problem with that is that:

1 - none of the quotes actually conclude how it works, it just make it clear that there isn't a physical attack happening and gives 3 possibilities for why without confirming either, it doesn't even confirm that it "negates/ignores durability", all it says is that it's not the blade itself which damages the target (no different from how Agnese also doesn't need direct contact to damage her opponents but her attacks are still "physical damage").

2 - whatever it does, it's not being done by Alice herself, that's why I am saying it should be split to begin with.

For Alice's AP/range justifications, there's:

1. Can destroy the universe.
2. World would be destroyed
3. Comparison to Othinus
4. This quote.

I suggested these to apply to Live Adventures in Wonderland instead of her physicals, what do you think about it?

 

[Aseka]

From what I can remember, Child Alice didn't have any 5B feats and as you pointed out she gets her Miracles when in Adult Form (at least I don't remember any explicit or even implicit mention to her Miracles in her Child Form).

I remember Alice suddenly disappear from Consulate, is that have anything to do with her "Walking"?

 

[Axscell]

It doesn't need to be a different key, given it is basically a transformation/true form she doesn't need any specific condition to access.

Could be something like "at least 9B in Child Form, 5B in Adult form" (just as an example)

From what I can remember, Child Alice didn't have any 5B feats and as you pointed out she gets her Miracles when in Adult Form (at least I don't remember any explicit or even implicit mention to her Miracles in her Child Form).

Seeing as there is a whole difference of physical AP and abilities (miracles), shouldn't we just make a separate key? i.e.

Child Alice | Inner Alice (or Adult Alice)

This is what I currently have for her AP/Tier in the CRT, without separate keys:

At least 9B Physically as Child Alice, 5B Physically as Inner Alice, far higher with Grabbing, At least High 1-C, likely far higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland.

Idk, seems like it could come across a bit messy and confusing to others.

 

[Axscell]

I remember Alice suddenly disappear from Consulate, is that have anything to do with her "Walking"?

Could be, but it was never specified.

 

[Axscell]

only thing I think should be more extensively discussed there is her resistance to internal damage which I am suggesting to be expanded.

This is one quote from the LN regarding that. It straight up states that she's immune to all types of internal damage:

Spoiler: Toaru Majutsu no Index GT7, Chapter 4, Part 7

Also, her body was immune to bacteria, bugs, curses, and all other forms of internal damage, both scientific and magical. As for external damage, she would always remain unscathed thanks to the hedgehogs and flamingo protecting her. Moreover, this didn’t come from a fear of shedding blood. She protected herself that way because if anything obstructed her actions, she might get angry and kill someone.

Should be enough for resistance, I think.

 

[XDragnoir]

Seeing as there is a whole difference of physical AP and abilities (miracles), shouldn't we just make a separate key? i.e.

Nah, separate keys are for straight up different versions of a character, such as different story arcs, outside power ups or any kind of change they can't undo mid-battle (that's why Accel's wings aren't separate keys but L6S is, for example)

 

[Axscell]

Nah, separate keys are for straight up different versions of a character, such as different story arcs, outside power ups or any kind of change they can't undo mid-battle (that's why Accel's wings aren't separate keys but L6S is, for example)

Alright. Makes sense, I suppose.

Current AP rating (in the CRT) should be fine then.

 

[XDragnoir]

This is one quote from the LN regarding that. It straight up states that she's immune to all types of internal damage:

Yeah, that's the quote I was talking about.

Btw, how many different forms of internal damage we have in Toaru?

From the top of my head there is Accel's blood and bioelectric reversal, Coronzon's rebounding spell (or whatever it was), the Kihara shockwave technique and Anna's life force disruption, can't recall any others.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yeah, that's the quote I was talking about.

Btw, how many different forms of internal damage we have in Toaru?

From the top of my head there is Accel's blood and bioelectric reversal, Coronzon's rebounding spell (or whatever it was), the Kihara shockwave technique and Anna's life force disruption, can't recall any others.

So Alice gets resistance to Biological Manip (via Accel) and Dura Neg (via Kihara technique) in VBW terms, if I am correct. Not sure what Coronzon and Anna's stuff would get other than Dura Neg again.

Oh yeah. The Railgun collab with the gacha game Blue Archive is officially on in its EN servers... Didn't get Misaka or Misaki on my rolls even with the savings I got as a F2P, tho, so I'mma spend my time sulking. Probs spent all of my luck in getting a 6-star in Arknights, imao.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

So Alice gets resistance to Biological Manip (via Accel) and Dura Neg (via Kihara technique) in VBW terms, if I am correct. Not sure what Coronzon and Anna's stuff would get other than Dura Neg again.

Oh yeah. The Railgun collab with the gacha game Blue Archive is officially on in its EN servers... Didn't get Misaka or Misaki on my rolls even with the savings I got as a F2P, tho, so I'mma spend my time sulking. Probs spent all of my luck in getting a 6-star in Arknights, imao.

You a Doktah?
Anyways, does mind control count as internal damage? Or at least attacks that's harmful to one's mind and is related to mind control, though that might count into biological manip too.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

You a Doktah?
Anyways, does mind control count as internal damage? Or at least attacks that's harmful to one's mind.

Ye.

IIRC, Alice's profile already has a mind control resistance via her resisting Misaki's Mental Out through a statement. Although, the statement Accel and Noir are talking about might also allow Alice's mind resistance to expand to other forms of mind manip that aren't biological-based (like Mental Out) like Coronzon's snap and you immediately fall unconscious technique or possibly whatever she did with Index.

Oh. And the grimores' madness manip comes to mind as well as a possible resistance for Alice.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Ye.

IIRC, Alice's profile already has a mind control resistance via her resisting Misaki's Mental Out through a statement. Although, the statement Accel and Noir are talking about might also allow Alice's mind resistance to expand to other forms of mind manip that aren't biological-based (like Mental Out) like Coronzon's snap and you immediately fall unconscious technique or possibly whatever she did with Index.

Oh. And the grimores' madness manip comes to mind as well as a possible resistance for Alice.

So does soul manip attacks count as an internal damage too? Or is that too far fetched?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

So does soul manip attacks count as an internal damage too? Or is that too far fetched?

It does to me, but you might have to ask the others to get a more solid opinion. If they all agree then there isn't an issue with giving Alice resistance to soul manip.

 

[Aseka]

From the top of my head there is Accel's blood and bioelectric reversal, Coronzon's rebounding spell (or whatever it was), the Kihara shockwave technique and Anna's life force disruption, can't recall any others

Shirai's teleport, also I don't know if Kakine can create Dark Matter inside the body or not

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Shirai's teleport, also I don't know if Kakine can create Dark Matter inside the body or not

Well, he could turn a person into sand. So transmutation resistance?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

"All form of internal damage, both scientific and magical" could varies to literally all attacks that exists in the verse that can target her internally and deal some kind of thing she consider "damage" (ofc except for attacks that she clearly scales below/can't resist).

immune to teleportation attacks, any kind of poison and bacteria as mentioned in the scan, maybe soul manip res, mind manip res, internal transmutation res, internal vector transformation res, internal reality warping res, internal spatial manipulation res, basically internal "insert name" res.

Basically, nothing can target her inside directly, right? Like if external damage can still deal damage to her inside if deep enough, then it's more like that those internal attacks either can't target her inside directly/ can't hit her inside, or somehow her inside is completely invincible until her external shell is damaged.

 

[XDragnoir]

basically internal "insert name" res.

As long as we've had an example of it before the statement was written, pretty much.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

As long as we've had an example of it before the statement was written, pretty much.

If he said scientific then I guess we could at least go to the spinoffs and see if there are more esper ability like that.

 

[Churronzon]

11. A form of Biological Manipulation combined with Weapon Creation?: Alice can turn anything into a weapon, be it an object or a living being, by simply grabbing it:

Whatever it is, it's also mind manip.
Grabbing something strips them of their will. Trismegistus didn't perform any actions until she released him.

The act of denying an object its own will and applying her own will to it by unilaterally wielding it for its offensive or defensive functionality.

I suggested these to apply to Live Adventures in Wonderland instead of her physicals, what do you think about it?

Makes sense to me.

---

On the topic of Alice's internal protections, there's Mathers' and St. Germain's diseases.

---

How do people feel about giving "beast/inner Alice" a possible resistance to reality warping? Wanna know if I'm in the extreme minority lmao.

Most likely, no one could have escaped that lance when attacked head on. No matter what
form of defense or evasion they attempted, they would have had no hope of surviving.
That attack had been given the parameter of “no human can oppose it”. Unless one left
the territory of man, one would be smashed to pieces. Not even Fiamma of the Right or
Ollerus could have done anything when faced with it.

“No more holding back. Risk 4: Releasing the numberless seal – leaving human territory.
Rapidly renewing myself using a trio of great beings.”

We know the transcendents have a card they can play that would let them kill Othinus in the Black World in that quote people have debated numerous times already. Even if we don't want to give all the transcendents a possible resistance with Risk 4, I don't see it as a huge leap to give it to Alice's version of Risk 4.

This one revealed that the Transcendents of the Bridge Builders Cabal are
all magicians strong enough to rival the entire magic side and their goal is to
make the world a better place. But if you compare them to the Magic Gods
who are satisfied creating an ideal world on their own, you can see how they
have basically min-maxed their diffusion and destruction skills. The
irritating thing for them is that they can destroy everything with ease, but
they can’t remake it all afterwards. They’re so reluctant to play their one
and only card that they were even caught in Othinus’s destruction of the
world and killed. (Because if the Transcendents had killed Othinus in that
dark space, they couldn’t have remade the world like she did.) With that in
mind, can you see why they’re so terrified of Alice whose innocence makes
her impossible to predict? She has the destruction button right in front of her,
after all.

 

[StrangerALover]

Whatever it is, it's also mind manip.
Grabbing something strips them of their will. Trismegistus didn't perform any actions until she released him.


Makes sense to me.

---

On the topic of Alice's internal protections, there's Mathers' and St. Germain's diseases.

---

How do people feel about giving "beast/inner Alice" a possible resistance to reality warping? Wanna know if I'm in the extreme minority lmao.


We know the transcendents have a card they can play that would let them kill Othinus in the Black World in that quote people have debated numerous times already. Even if we don't want to give all the transcendents a possible resistance with Risk 4, I don't see it as a huge leap to give it to Alice's version of Risk 4.

Yes, I agree with you. Unfortunately, many people do not accept this.

 

[Churronzon]

 

[XDragnoir]

How do people feel about giving "beast/inner Alice" a possible resistance to reality warping? Wanna know if I'm in the extreme minority lmao.

We know the transcendents have a card they can play that would let them kill Othinus in the Black World in that quote people have debated numerous times already. Even if we don't want to give all the transcendents a possible resistance with Risk 4, I don't see it as a huge leap to give it to Alice's version of Risk 4.

I have no problem giving Alice that resistance given we have her statement about resisting pretty much everything in the verse, the other Transcendents tho have no actual feats or statements in the actual volumes to use as evidence for what Kamachi said and their Risk 4s don't seem that good 90% of the time.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I have no problem giving Alice that resistance given we have her statement about resisting pretty much everything in the verse, the other Transcendents tho have no actual feats or statements in the actual volumes to use as evidence for what Kamachi said and their Risk 4s don't seem that good 90% of the time.

I can agree with this. Especially in regards to the other Transcendents that aren't Alice.

 

[Axscell]

Okay, so just to list down the resistances we have for her so far;

Resistance:
1. Time Stop: (Is stated to have total control over time, and is able to move and act freely within stopped time.)

Resistance to Transcendents' abilities:
2. Fate Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Vidhatri's ability to control the fate of the world)
3. Existence Erasure: (Cannot be erased by Vidhatri, who can erase people's existence by ommiting mentions of them.)
4. *Mind Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Blodeuwedd's ability to control all living beings.)
5. Curse Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by 2nd Saga's curse manipulation)

Resistance to all internal damage displayed in the series:
6. Disease & Poison Manipulation: (Mathers and St. Germain)
7. Telefragging (Teleporting espers)
8. etc

P.S.: Should we just put it all under one term/sentence like:

Resistance to Durability Negation (Is stated to be immune to all forms of damage that target her internals, e.g. Disease Manipulation, Poison Manipulation, Telefragging etc.)

Or would you guys prefer to list them down one by one like with numbers 6 & 7?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

P.S.: Should we just put it all under one term/sentence like:



Or would you guys prefer to list them down one by one like with numbers 6 & 7?

I prefer the option that's bolded myself.

 

[Axscell]

Okay, so just to list down the resistances we have for her so far;

Resistance:
1. Time Stop: (Is stated to have total control over time, and is able to move and act freely within stopped time.)

Resistance to Transcendents' abilities:
2. Fate Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Vidhatri's ability to control the fate of the world)
3. Existence Erasure: (Cannot be erased by Vidhatri, who can erase people's existence by ommiting mentions of them.)
4. *Mind Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Blodeuwedd's ability to control all living beings.)
5. Curse Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by 2nd Saga's curse manipulation)

Resistance to all internal damage displayed in the series:
6. Disease & Poison Manipulation: (Mathers and St. Germain)
7. Telefragging (Teleporting espers)
8. etc

P.S.: Should we just put it all under one term/sentence like:



Or would you guys prefer to list them down one by one like with numbers 6 & 7?

In the case of 1-5, I'm sure I've not listed everything, so feel free to add to the list

 

[Aseka]

I am forgot about 2nd Saga, how exactly is her ability can do?

 

[Axscell]

I am forgot about 2nd Saga, how exactly is her ability can do?

Nothing, other than cement her as the most disappointing Transcendent we've seen so far.

Jokes aside, this is pretty much the extent of everything she did or at least tried to do:

Spoiler: 2nd Saga epic fail

"2nd Saga!! Eliminate her now!”

“Hee hee.”

An alluring female face and limbs appeared in the dark night. She was around 18, at the midpoint between girlhood and womanhood.

But that was all that was visible.

The pieces floated separately. No, her torso had clearly been torn apart. It now contained strange hollow spaces. Had her human silhouette unraveled like bandages? Was it due to the thick ribbon that had been wrapped around her torso? The lights of the city were visible in the space beyond her partially eliminated body.

The space seemed somewhat distorted.

Or maybe it was a type of camouflage.

Aradia faced this person who was strange even for a Transcendent. She had the face of a girl with short flaxen hair with the interior dyed bright blue.

“2nd Saga. Do you derive some special meaning from covering and hiding things?”

“I’ve always had trouble choosing just one thing. I never want to throw anything out, so my room always ends up a mess.”

Saga was a goddess from Norse mythology.

She was said to be extremely powerful and to manage the spring where Odin is gifted with poetry and wisdom.

But she is barely mentioned throughout all the Norse monuments and texts.

Barely anything is known about her other than that her home is called Sokkvabekkr.

Information on her was scarce.

She was a mysterious figure who is simply known to share drinks with the top Norse god.

This woman had gone out of here way to choose a god like that.

She had wanted to be her.

Aradia spat annoyed words with the yellow and black railroad crossing barrier in hand.

“If a single performer tries to forcibly dress up as multiple gods, the traits of the gods cancel each other out, diluting their presence. We normally have strict rules about what we can’t do if we want to stay in character and keep our costume authentic, but I didn’t expect one of us to take advantage of that fact.”

“By intentionally keeping a low profile, I can do things other gods can’t. I am not the star of the show. But if a tree or a bush does something they shouldn’t, the audience has no way of knowing if it was correct or not. This allows me to be a performer on the stage while also freeing me from the bonds of the script. I am the only one allowed to be myself.”

“…”

“I am the Transcendent who saves all the bit parts and understudies who never get any attention. I can’t look down on them if I’m to do that. I need to understand how they feel and be one of them first.”

She disappeared.

Did she unleash her skill to the point she became one with the air?

The bluish-white armor partially surrounding 2nd Saga’s limbs vanished into the air, causing what little of her skin and face were still visible to look unnaturally alluring.

The bright round skin of her face was like a device for giving off sex appeal.

The pupils of her blue eyes were colored an impossible bright red. Did she use a light-bending technique to pull that one off?

Even with her full body unraveled, the individual pieces were made of captivating feminine skin.

But if a member of the opposite sex were caught by her like this, it would probably break his mind.

The strange avant-garde woman sneered.

“My name is 2nd Saga, a fictional god created on the mischievous whim of the compiler. Which allows me to add on any magic I wish which is never actually found in Norse mythology. …Now, it is time you lost your one and only life. The divine curse – that is, the light of Brisingamen, necklace of infidelity – can even trigger a war between world-destroying kings. Do not assume an individual can escape that deadly fate!!”

It started at the center, where her chest had been.

The thick ribbon, which bound her skin and showed the city behind her, created a transparent distortion much like sugar water, which spilled beyond her outlines.

It forcibly gathered Aradia’s focus on a single point, much like having a finger jabbed between the eyes at close range.

Aradia sensed a definite deadliness in this unknown phenomenon.

Was she mistaken, or had that been the true trigger?

The impossible distortion became a large artillery shell that tore through the air.

This was an assassination spell.

It was guaranteed to take a life.

And the user could sidestep their own sin by saying they were only adoring the beautiful gold and jewels. The necklace brought doom, but it allowed the user to claim they didn’t know it was cursed and thought it was only a beautiful piece of jewelry. Was that to insure they would not be hit in the unlikely case that the curse was sent back the way it had come?

Aradia snorted with laughter.

The rails were laid out nicely, but it was all nonsense with no actual mythological basis. The sky is heaven, the gods shine bright, the workings of salvation and divine punishment, cats are capricious and dogs are loyal – by combining the common symbols found across cultures, anyone could fake apparent legitimacy.

Yes, this was faked.

Her cosplay was sloppy. Gods were meant to draw a strict line between right and wrong, so they couldn’t accept – much less use – a loophole like this. A real god did not choose their words carefully for fear of backlash or controversy. Even the cruelest act could be written off as “divine punishment” if it was truly necessary.

And even if this curse would pursue Aradia to the ends of the Earth, there was only one thing she had to do.

“There just have to be two Aradias.”

“Wha-!?”

Immediately after 2nd Saga’s dumbfounded shock, the invisible curse tore itself apart with its own power.

The chilly moonlight shined on two identical people.

The black and yellow railroad crossing barriers resting on their shoulders crossed like swords mounted on a wall.

Aradia hadn’t actually done anything. The curse simply hadn’t been designed to handle an abnormal situation where two identical people existed. It was unable to deal with the situation it found, so the single shell attempted to pursue two targets at once, tearing itself apart from within.

It dissipated.

It disappeared.

 

[Aseka]

Oh, so that's a single target curse of death.

 

[Axscell]

Oh, so that's a single target curse of death.

Yep, pretty much

 

[Axscell]

Almost done with the CRT. Just the resistances and a few changes to go.

Is this okay for Alice's durability?

At least 9B Physically as Child Alice, At least 5B Physically as Inner Alice, At least High 1-C, likely far higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland.

 

[XDragnoir]

Almost done with the CRT. Just the resistances and a few changes to go.

Is this okay for Alice's durability?

I don't think we saw she applying LAW in any kind of defensive way?

 

[Axscell]

I don't think we saw she applying LAW in any kind of defensive way?

Yeah, you're right. I was more so going off of this:

There was no way to save him.

The world had not developed that far.

It was underdeveloped.

People had studied what they liked and technology had branched off into countless directions, but never in this one.

The world didn’t care.

Time would continue on like normal even after he was gone.

And…

“Then let’s destroy it,” said a young voice.

Alice Anotherbible sounded the same as ever.

No, her voice sounded dried out.

Terrifyingly so.

This wasn’t part of the plan.

She sounded like her surprise party plan had fallen apart.

“We have our answer. And if this world can’t save you, teacher, than the girl is going to destroy it. The girl heard what you said, so she knows this world wouldn’t still be here if not for you. So it’s only fair the world goes away when you do, don’t you think?”

“Wait! Don’t, Touma!!” sharply shouted Index.

The knowledge of her grimoires must have told her Alice could do exactly what she claimed. And that she would do it the instant Kamijou gave her some kind of sign.

He would never do that under normal circumstances.

But it was wrong to assume he would behave normally now that he knew he would lose everything.

y/n.

The available options had been narrowed down as far as possible.

The fate of the world hinged on this one question.

She talks about destroying the world, but no mention of her going with it.

 

[XDragnoir]

She talks about destroying the world, but no mention of her going with it.

From what I noticed at least, there's no confirmed method as for how she would destroy it. Indeed, she may be able to delete it like Othinus did upon getting Gungnir, no kind of outright destruction involved.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I got off my butt and did something for this verse. For the first time in forever, imao. Come to this CRT and give your thoughts. I'mma go grind for some mats for a bit, though.

 

[Axscell]

CRT's done. Hope I didn't miss anything.

Alice Anotherbible (Toaru) Revision

This CRT will feature additions and changes for Alice Anotherbible from Toaru Majutsu no Index. Tier Proposal: At least 9B Physically as Child Alice, At least 5B Physically as Inner Alice, far higher with Grabbing, At least High 1-C, likely far higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland...

vsbattles.com

 

[Churronzon]

Alice can create as many regular transcendents as she wants
All transcendents can create clothing and have automatic translation.

Hedgehogs are type 1 small size

 

[Churronzon]

--Speed of Light attack and reaction speed: Alice could easily react to and blitz Trismegistus, whose sword slashes are stated to be actual light.

Too add justification to speed of light Tris, he can infuse his blade into any phenomena which includes water, lightning, and light.

Based on what Kamijou had seen, those sword strikes came in more than one variety.

Lightning.

Light.

Water.

Crystal.

How did it have so much variety? The young butler himself had said it wasn’t Zeus, but
even knowing that, Kamijou couldn’t believe what he was seeing.

Aradia and the Bologna Succubus’s spells were supposedly powerful enough to fight the
entire magic side on their own. Same for Good, Old Mary’s resurrection.

Was Trismegistus the same?

He could infuse his sharp blade into any phenomenon, so if he wasn’t afraid of cutting
himself, could he fill this entire universe with miniscule death and destruction?

[...]

The young butler could apparently infuse his sword strikes into a variety of ordinary
phenomena like light and water. So could he apply a cutting edge to the an
electric field and not just to a lightning strike?

-Souyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 7 Chapter 4 Part 4

 

[Axscell]

Alice can create as many regular transcendents as she wants
All transcendents can create clothing and have automatic translation.

Hedgehogs are type 1 small size

Thanks. Added

 

[Churronzon]

np
Good Old Mary's pocket universe can produce anything in the world and has death hax(?)
Sorry for posting this until just now