Invincible CRT Interlude 1 : Crossover scaling and Comic vs Show

[Tahoy49574]

A couple of CRTs discussing the state of Invincible as verse in the wiki and some of it's issues

1.- Crossover scaling

Right now crossover scaling amongst Image superhero titles is forbidden due to being considered unreliable by the site's standards, but if that's the case then why is a feat from The Pact currently being used for Early Mark ?

Besides the current calculation being faulty as hell, it's a crossover comic, why does it get a pass ? If Firebreather gets a profile, would it be also valid for him ?

Proposal: Remove it altogether, unless there are legit arguments for it

2.- The show as supplementary material for the comic

This is something I've brought up and I don't see why it wouldn't be the case, Robert Kirkman spearheads the animated series. He created an entire new Skybound division for it, he's executive producer of the entire series, he's written the most plot pivotal episodes himself and has said that their main goal with the show is to expand scenes and heighten them, but not change them in a way that makes them substantially different than the comics, talking with the animators and directors about how he wants things to be portrayed

For example in this latest season with Mark's feat of tanking a nuke. Despite missing the "largest in recorded history" solar flare statement and thus being technically weaker

In terms of actual destructive capability it's arguably thousands of times better displayed

Another thing that I brought up is that the most significant changes so far have been chronology( which happened all the way back in Season 1) and characterization-wise, and again the story didn't substantially divert from the comics by the end of it. Rae's suvival has been one of the most significant changes and it mainly served to develop Rex as a character and made his death hit harder, she herself didn't impact the history a whole lot and retired, people thought Invincible War would play out differently due to the changes to Angstrom's motivation and it played out literally the same, as well as thought Immortal would get a win against one of the Invincible variants but he was defeated rather easily and also retired, because again these are fundamental plot points that impact the overall story

Proposal: Use the show as reference for feats that also happen in the comic
What this would change right now:

• Comic Angstrom Levy would use the calculation of him surviving an explosion that uses the show as a reference
• Immortal flying into space should be properly calculated and would use the show as a reference for timeframes
• This was also brought up here before and even in the comments of the actual calculation, the current Omni-Man flying to Thraxa feat is pretty flawed. The handbook says Thraxa is in the Virgo Supercluster, not Cluster which is all those millions of light years away, the Milky Way for example is part of the supercluster. Now, the show gives actual reference for where Thraxa could be, this would warrant a recalculation of the feat as at least in the comic it's said Omni-Man found it within a week of travelling through space

3.- Supplementary material for the show ?!

This is something a bit more out there but hear me out. This was also said before and the show has a bit of Marvel's problem of portraying everyone as somewhat comparable and this extends to speed. Immortal, Hail Mary and Powerplex are right now MFTL+ despite fighting people who were nowhere near moving that fast because supposedly

Omni Man's reaction speed is always mftl+ because he has not proven to be able to reduce it and even if he did he has no reason to do so during a fight, whether he is on Earth or not.

And Mark scales to an extent

The thing is, we do have a statement of about their reflexes not always being the same, Allen's handbook:

Even Tech Jacket's profile acknowledges this is a viable explanation for the speed issues of the verse, and waiting for the show to make this kind of statement is pretty unrealistic

Let's go through this step by step

All Teen Team members are comparable to each other speed-wise, no question on that

Later on, some of them join the New Guardians of the Globe and again, everyone is portrayed as being relative to each other speed-wise most of the time except for Bulletproof and Immortal who can do full-speed rams with ther flight

Then comes the Mauler Twins fight, where they not only are able to intercept Immortal mid-flight, momentarily knock him out and even somewhat keep up with him despite supposedly being always millions of times faster, but Dupli-Kate also manages to take one by surprise, land various hits and even react to his attacks



Another example of this is the fight with Fightmaster and Dropkick, Mark who has MFTL+ reaction/combat speed and everything should be in slow motion for him Red Rush style, is caught off guard and impressed by the speed of two regular guys



At least, infinitely more regular than him



So, also upgrade all these characters to MFTL+ ? Of course not given the stuff that can pose a threat to them

They simply aren't meant to be this fast

Proposal: Apply the Varies speed ratings to the relevant characters' TV counterparts or downgrade the speed of some of these characters(could be both tho)

If this one doesn't go through then at least there should be a more serious discussion about the speed of the verse

PROPOSAL 1
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

PROPOSAL 2
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral

PROPOSAL 3
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Machmatej]

I agree with the first and third proposal. Not so sure on the second one, though. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having two different profiles for the characters?

 

[Tahoy49574]

I agree with the first and third proposal. Not so sure on the second one, though. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having two different profiles for the characters?

Yes lol
I also brought that up before and was told the story differences warrant them so I guess not

 

[Da3ggman]

Following, I'll give my thoughts later.

 

[Tahoy49574]

bump

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Another example of this is the fight with Fightmaster and Dropkick, Mark who has MFTL+ reaction/combat speed and everything should be in slow motion for him Red Rush style, is caught off guard and impressed by the speed of two regular guys

OK, this has to be some type of troll take, because it's completely missing the context of what's happening here.

Mark didn't get blitzed by Dropkick, and he's not saying he's fast compared to him, he's saying he's fast for a random person. Mark thinks Dropkick and Fightmaster are regular humans, so seeing him dodge a casual punch isn't an Invincible-level feat, he's just suprised at how fast the acrobatics were.

 

[Tahoy49574]

OK, this has to be some type of troll take, because it's completely missing the context of what's happening here.

Mark didn't get blitzed by Dropkick, and he's not saying he's fast compared to him, he's saying he's fast for a random person. Mark thinks Dropkick and Fightmaster are regular humans, so seeing him dodge a casual punch isn't an Invincible-level feat, he's just suprised at how fast the acrobatics were.

Again, the way TV currently treats reaction/combat speed as always MFTL+ would make Mark see them as snails compared to him Red Rush-style, which wouldn't warrant such comment

 

[Reyne]

Agree on 1
Disagree on 2 and 3 (this isn't something like an anime that has near 1 to 1 replication, and I believe the differences are too plentiful; figure out explanations how ever you want,but don't cherry pick just because the show is SUPPOSED to simply add on to comic events, but doesn't do JUST that)

 

[Tahoy49574]

Agree on 1
Disagree on 2 and 3

Why tho

 

[Tahoy49574]

Agree on 1
Disagree on 2 and 3 (this isn't something like an anime that has near 1 to 1 replication, and I believe the differences are too plentiful; figure out explanations how ever you want,but don't cherry pick just because the show is SUPPOSED to simply add on to comic events, but doesn't do JUST that)

Pretty sure the site doesn't use animes for reference even if they are 1:1 because it's usually made by other people without involvement of the author, but the Invincible animated series is led by Kirkman. And again, most of the differences have nothing to do scaling-wise, they only added to the nuke feat even if it's missing the statement, likely due to wanting to be less expositive

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Again, the way TV currently treats reaction/combat speed as always MFTL+ would make Mark see them as snails compared to him Red Rush-style, which wouldn't warrant such comment

Not necessarily. Mark can have a fast reaction speed and a regular perception of time.

Red Rush has a different type of reaction speed, where for him, it's like his perception of time is slowed down.

These two are not the same thing.

 

[MrKerf]

Considering that the series is ongoing, we don’t know how much or little it will diverge from the comic. So until it is done there’s no point in arguing about them being secondary canon to one another (which I personally would oppose anyway).

 

[Tahoy49574]

Considering that the series is ongoing, we don’t know how much or little it will diverge from the comic. So until it is done there’s no point in arguing about them being secondary canon to one another (which I personally would oppose anyway).

You say that as if we don't have 3 seasons of reference yet. And as I've already said, the most experimental they got was Season 1 changing the timelime of events and even then the events themselves were pretty 1:1

Rae's suvival has been one of the most significant changes and it mainly served to develop Rex as a character and made his death hit harder, she herself didn't impact the history a whole lot and retired

Next season there'll be a hell storyline that was scrapped from the comic, but it will just be another step in the story rather than something groundbreaking, since the Viltrumite War will obviously be their main priority

 

[Reyne]

Pretty sure the site doesn't use animes for reference even if they are 1:1 because it's usually made by other people without involvement of the author, but the Invincible animated series is led by Kirkman. And again, most of the differences have nothing to do scaling-wise, they only added to the nuke feat even if it's missing the statement, likely due to wanting to be less expositive

It does. MHA is an example of one, with almost everything coming from the manga. Invincible is very different to its comic counterpart. It is far from 1:1. I don't agree that it should be used in either direction.

 

[Chariot190]

The comic nuke is actually better. It happens way deeper into space, past the moon even, and yet lights up the moon base and isn't capped by anything so it could easily be petaton range. While the show nuke is capped pretty low because it happens within the atmosphere still. As in, the "strongest on record" line, makes no sense for the show nuke, because it evidently isn't that strong while the comic has no such contradictions to it.

As an aside, the comic and show still different. The show is more of a "second draft", if things differ between them, which it does, especially for feats, with both versions having different feats between them within the the "same scenes", it gets kinda hard to scale for the same reason why using a anime and manga's very different showing of the "same thing" is hard, kinda like Dio's eye beams being a thing in both the anime and manga, yet in the anime they're a billion times stronger, or Part 6 just straight up gutting stuff. And yes, even when the author is involved, things can still differ. Like what happens for scenes where there's changes that straight up alter statements in one? Because it's happened. Like in the comic Nolan only kills a few thousand people tops, this is stated quite a few times, sometimes they say hundreds, yet in the show his ass killed exponentially more, creating a contradiction. This is just a minor thing, but there's more explicit cases.

It's best to just treat them as diff canons because that's what they are, there's going to be overlap of course, but they're blatantly not the same thing. The comic is more like the "original" with the show trying to be the "definitive".


Also the handbook speed thing is actively contradicted when multiple characters can react to MFTL+ stuff while at a standstill, consistently. Using a handbook line that came out early on in the comic's life that has dubious oversight to somehow contradict feats, is a bit of a absolutely not.
Notwithstanding a lot of the "relative" showings aren't actually that, or are in fact from characters that scale so eh.

 

[Jason_Courne]

The Pact is not a crossover, it's just a team up.
The last issue of the run was also included in volume 3 of the Invincible Ultimate Collection (also, each writer of the original series would take turns writing the 4 issues)

 

[Chariot190]

Also the "things that are a threat" examples kinda bad. Like yeah a crippled Rex who can't even really move do be a prime target, I bet if you cut Superman's legs off and had him on the ground bleeding out you could tag him with a bullet too, context kind of matters (Especially as they scale to dudes like Best Tiger, who has a fuckton of casual bullet feats).
Guns aren't at all a threat to the Mauler's given they laugh off high-cal bullets and joke about it, but assuming they are in that specific scene, what are they meant to do? Two dudes almost as wide as the hallway, being shot at? Don't really got a way to dodge them, literally not enough room to, so why not just skip the shit and use a shield? This would only be a problem if they like, got shot at, knew it was coming, and failed to react. Something being a threat, which guns aren't to them anyway, doesn't mean it's a speed thing if they can avoid them whenever. It's like Racer's gun even, that shit is a threat, but everyone can and has dodged it (Which would be FTL going by this thread's proposals anyhow due to the sun feat, and lads like Thragg can dodge that pointblank).

And the 3rd one is just them not wanting to get cops involved. Plus Mark is actively holding back a fuckton there, he's impressed by human standards if anything, given he's seen shit way faster. Plus end of the scene he just stands there and takes his punches proving he didn't even need to dodge to begin with all those other times, which leans more into the "yeah dude is sandbagging". Dude just can't really punch him in the head at MFTL speeds given it'd like, kill him.

Couple that with stuff like even just basic mach reaction feats at a standstill like catching gunfire, to reacting to random MFTL stuff at a standstill. Yeah, some dudes just scale and are that fast, it is what it is.

 

[Hellbeast]

A couple of CRTs discussing the state of Invincible as verse in the wiki and some of it's issues

1.- Crossover scaling

Right now crossover scaling amongst Image superhero titles is forbidden due to being considered unreliable by the site's standards, but if that's the case then why is a feat from The Pact currently being used for Early Mark ?

Besides the current calculation being faulty as hell, it's a crossover comic, why does it get a pass ? If Firebreather gets a profile, would it be also valid for him ?

Proposal: Remove it altogether, unless there are legit arguments for it

I believe the Pact is one of the comics tha actually canon to the Invincible Universe through and through, not akin to something like Savage Dragon

2.- The show as supplementary material for the comic

This is something I've brought up and I don't see why it wouldn't be the case, Robert Kirkman spearheads the animated series. He created an entire new Skybound division for it, he's executive producer of the entire series, he's written the most plot pivotal episodes himself and has said that their main goal with the show is to expand scenes and heighten them, but not change them in a way that makes them substantially different than the comics, talking with the animators and directors about how he wants things to be portrayed

True but we also know from Ottley the show is going to be akin to a remaster of the show, with Kirkman even bringing in lost arcs from the comic lile the Hell arc and pretty substantially changing the orders of events

That said, I do believe that we can use the show for timeframe, especially when we get to the Viltrumite War and do stuff like the Viltrum feat later down the track. That said, I also don’t think we should use show exclusive showings for the comics

3.- Supplementary material for the show ?!

This is something a bit more out there but hear me out. This was also said before and the show has a bit of Marvel's problem of portraying everyone as somewhat comparable and this extends to speed. Immortal, Hail Mary and Powerplex are right now MFTL+ despite fighting people who were nowhere near moving that fast because supposedly

And Mark scales to an extent

The thing is, we do have a statement of about their reflexes not always being the same, Allen's handbook:

I’m pretty sure we don’t use the guidebooks but I’m not against this. I would note that there should be scaling to flight speed since we see characters in the comics fighting and reacting while moving mid space-flight

Even Tech Jacket's profile acknowledges this is a viable explanation for the speed issues of the verse, and waiting for the show to make this kind of statement is pretty unrealistic

Eh it’s only combat and reactions characters like Plex scale to so it’s messy but you just mention that on the pages then

Let's go through this step by step

All Teen Team members are comparable to each other speed-wise, no question on that

Later on, some of them join the New Guardians of the Globe and again, everyone is portrayed as being relative to each other speed-wise most of the time except for Bulletproof and Immortal who can do full-speed rams with ther flight

Bulletproof is apparently comparable to Red Rush so you can probably use his feats and statements, including that “conversations over hours” statement from Rush back in the pilot. Considering your later proposals for calcs that might be notable

Then comes the Mauler Twins fight, where they not only are able to intercept Immortal mid-flight, momentarily knock him out and even somewhat keep up with him despite supposedly being always millions of times faster, but Dupli-Kate also manages to take one by surprise, land various hits and even react to his attacks

I’d note that Kate and Rex can also tag Komodo who could trade blows with Immortal in the Atom Eve special. I also believe other members scaled to Samson and War Woman who seem comparable to Immortal

Another example of this is the fight with Fightmaster and Dropkick, Mark who has MFTL+ reaction/combat speed and everything should be in slow motion for him Red Rush style, is caught off guard and impressed by the speed of two regular guys

Listen Fightmaster > Red Rush is the meta

Proposal: Apply the Varies speed ratings to the relevant characters' TV counterparts or downgrade the speed of some of these characters(could be both tho)

Im fairly neutral on this but I’m down for the latter

If this one doesn't go through then at least there should be a more serious discussion about the speed of the verse

PROPOSAL 1

Disagree, can be swayed

PROPOSAL 2

Disagree

PROPOSAL 3

Neutral

 

[FusionPrime0]

For proposal 3, I don't think using statements from the comic and guidebook should be used to justify a variable speed rating, they're separate continuities with major changes between them. The speed scaling for the show is all over the place, so we probably have to look at things at a case by case basis to determine who scales to who consistently.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Genuinely, do you think Mark was surprised at that level of speed because it's approaching his reaction time? **** no. He doesn't have human-level combat speed.

Let's take a normie and basic understanding of the show. Anissa punches mark at the same speed he leaves flying into the air at superspeed.

Mark didn't throw a trashbag across a continent at a speed which can blitz him.

• This was also brought up here before and even in the comments of the actual calculation, the current Omni-Man flying to Thraxa feat is pretty flawed. The handbook says Thraxa is in the Virgo Supercluster, not Cluster which is all those millions of light years away, the Milky Way for example is part of the supercluster. Now, the show gives actual reference for where Thraxa could be, this would warrant a recalculation of the feat as at least in the comic it's said Omni-Man found it within a week of travelling through space

I agree with this though

 

[FusionPrime0]

Genuinely, do you think Mark was surprised at that level of speed because it's approaching his reaction time? **** no. He doesn't have human-level combat speed.

Let's take a normie and basic understanding of the show. Anissa punches mark at the same speed he leaves flying into the air at superspeed.

Mark didn't throw a trashbag across a continent at a speed which can blitz him.




I agree with this though

I agree as well. We also have a reference where Thraxa is using the guidebook. Thraxa's origin galaxy is stated to be the Virgo Supercluster while Mars' origin galaxy is stated to be the Milky Way, meaning they reside in different galaxies. I did a calc on another site and it got in the millions of times faster than light, which is a notable downscale, but still pretty decent. That would need an approved calculation and its own crt to be changed though.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I did a calc on another site and it got in the millions of times faster than light, which is a notable downscale, but still pretty decent. That would need an approved calculation and its own crt to be changed though

To get that approved, you need to place it in a blog on VSBW.

 

[FusionPrime0]

To get that approved, you need to place it in a blog on VSBW.

I placed it in a blog and posted it on the calculation evaluation forum, along with my re-calc of Viltrum's destruction.

 

[NikHelton]

I'm neutral on the first point because I'm not that familiar with the universe. However, judging from the comments above, this crossover has more significance than the others and can be used.

I disagree on point 2, because we have a division between comics and series. It's not the same as manga/anime, because Japanese animation transfers the source material frame by frame, while Invincible is more original.

I agree on point 3, but I'm not sure if the comic quote is valid for the series. I think we should just separate the speed of flight in space and the speed of reaction, until the characters show that they can react to someone in flight.

 

[Chariot190]

I agree on point 3, but I'm not sure if the comic quote is valid for the series. I think we should just separate the speed of flight in space and the speed of reaction, until the characters show that they can react to someone in flight.

They've already done that.
In some cases it's pretty bad, like Thragg doing a 180 pivot punch while standing still as Nolan flies at him max speed in the comic or Conquest chasing down a MFTL+ ship, and actively speeding up and smashing through it as it changes its speed to compensate.
Or Allen dodging a MFTL+ ship, while moving at MFTL+ as they intercept.

The show itself already has like 3 Allen feats and examples they would scale combat to flight speed too.

And mind you, all of these happen in space so there's no "slower flight on earth" type thing going on where they actively react.

 

[Cropfist]

I don't think the show should be used to infer comic feats or vice versa, unlike anime adaptations events play out too differently between each.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

They've already done that.
In some cases it's pretty bad, like Thragg doing a 180 pivot punch while standing still as Nolan flies at him max speed in the comic or Conquest chasing down a MFTL+ ship, and actively speeding up and smashing through it as it changes its speed to compensate.
Or Allen dodging a MFTL+ ship, while moving at MFTL+ as they intercept.

The show itself already has like 3 Allen feats and examples they would scale combat to flight speed too.

And mind you, all of these happen in space so there's no "slower flight on earth" type thing going on where they actively react.

BTW, the show has more than just three feats.

Mark throws a baseball around the earth

The Immortal throws a man at escape velocity

 

[Chariot190]

BTW, the show has more than just three feats.

Mark throws a baseball around the earth

The Immortal throws a man at escape velocity

We're talking MFTL travel speed scaling to reactions. Throwing a MHS baseball or mach 30 throw isn't exactly evidence that they scale to 800 billion times above that.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

We're talking MFTL travel speed scaling to reactions. Throwing a MHS baseball or mach 30 throw isn't exactly evidence that they scale to 800 billion times above that.

It's evidence that no matter what, the premise of the thread is incorrect.

The thread doesn't just refute MFTL+ speed and reactions, it would downgrade everyone to like f*cking human level or something.

My evidence inherently necessitates that they're faster than what the thread claims, and it proves, without a doubt, that super speed is real for these viltrumite characters, so somehow these characters MUST be fast.

 

[NikHelton]

They've already done that.
In some cases it's pretty bad, like Thragg doing a 180 pivot punch while standing still as Nolan flies at him max speed in the comic or Conquest chasing down a MFTL+ ship, and actively speeding up and smashing through it as it changes its speed to compensate.
Or Allen dodging a MFTL+ ship, while moving at MFTL+ as they intercept.

The show itself already has like 3 Allen feats and examples they would scale combat to flight speed too.

I don't actually remember when these exploits happened in the series.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't actually remember when these exploits happened in the series.

End of viltrum war.
literally the only other time conquest is in the comic besides the first fight.
Like issue 40 something, think 44?

Show is literally every time his ass shows up, not much more to really narrow it down to.

 

[Jason_Courne]

I don't actually remember when these exploits happened in the series.

Thragg's feat is in issue 76, right after Viltrum's destruction (He also reacts and beats down Invincible's top flight speed)
Conquest's feat is in issue 71, after they leave Earth for the Viltrumite war
Allen's is in #45, after Anissa beats up Mark and leaves Earth

 

[Tahoy49574]

Hello, I'll be pretty busy for the time being so I can't really oversee a lengthy thread like this (not to mention the lengthy responses) so I'll put this thread on hold for the time being.

I'll probably do short more straightforward ones about one subject tho

The Pact is not a crossover, it's just a team up.

I don't quite see the difference, especially because those characters aren't active part of the Invincible Universe