Massive Upgrade for Canon Jedi/Sith (Requesting a Calculation for this too)

[Naeem0304]

Light of the Jedi Scans
Moon-Cracking Emergence (Chapter 7)

Three Jedi Vectors and a Republic Longbeam whipped through space, slingshotting around the orange-and-green sphere that was the Fruited Moon of Hetzal, legendary throughout the galaxy for its bounty. Four billion people resided there, farming and growing and living their lives. All would be dead in less than thirty minutes if the four Jedi and two Republic officers could not destroy or somehow divert the object headed directly for the moon.

The anomaly was on the larger side, bigger than the Longbeam, and on a collision course with the moon’s primary landmass. Due to its velocity, a significant portion of the moon’s outer layer would be instantly vaporized on impact, surging into the atmosphere. Then would come the heat, the flames, scouring the surface clean of all life, plant and animal and sentient alike.

That’s assuming the whole blasted moon doesn’t just shatter when the anomaly hits,

Total destruction of the Fruited Moon wasn’t impossible. The amount of energy transferred upon the object’s impact would fall like a hammerblow on the little planetoid. Worlds seemed unbreakable when you were standing on them, but Te’Ami had seen things in her day...the galaxy didn’t care what you thought couldn’t be broken. It would break things just to show you it could.

Supporting Scans for Relativistic Velocity (Chapter 2)

“T see it, too,” Merven said. He didn’t even have to runa trajectory analysis.

The anomalies were headed sunward, and many of them were on intercept courses with the inhabited worlds and their orbital stations. The things weren’t slowing down, either. Not at all. At near-lightspeed, it didn’t matter whether they were asteroids, or ships, or frothy bubbles of fizz-candy. Whatever they hit would just...go.

There were now forty-two anomalies in-system, all moving at a velocity near lightspeed. Incredibly fast, in other words, much quicker than safety regulations allowed. If they were in fact ships, whoever was piloting them was in for a massive fine. But Merven didn’t think they were ships. They were too small, for one thing, and didn’t have drive signatures.

To Minister Ecka, it looked like a field overrun with a swarm of all-consuming insects. Hundreds of tiny lights moved through his system at what had to be tremendous speed, all in the same direction: sunward. More particularly, planetward. Toward Hetzal Prime and the moons Fruited and Rooted not so far away, not to mention all those stations, satellites, platforms, vessels…many of which had people on them.

“What are they?” he asked.

“Unknown,” Tarr responded. “I got this image by linking together signals from the surviving satellites and monitoring stations, but they’re going down quickly, and we’re losing sensor capacity as they do. Whatever these anomalies are, they’re moving at near-lightspeed, and it’s very difficult to track them. And, of course, whenever they hit something, it’s…”

“Not good,” General Borta finished for him.

“Apocalyptic, I was going to say,” Tarr said. “I’m tracking a good number on impact paths with the primeworld.”

Chapter 3

On the other hand, their target, one of the mysterious objects racing through the Hetzal system, was moving at a velocity near lightspeed. It had whipped out of hyperspace like a red-hot pellet fired from a slugthrower.

Chapter 6

It was not over.

In the Ab Dalis system, farther along the same hyperlane the Legacy Run had been traveling when it met its end, seven fragments of that ship emerged from hyperspace, just past the transfer point.

Not the largest nor the smallest was a chunk of the huge cargo vessel’s superstructure, a durasteel support beam still attached to a large portion of the ship’s hull.

The fragments were moving at just below lightspeed, but all were unpowered, electronically inert, and well inside the normal transfer point from hyperspace where vessels could arrive in the system. The sensor arrays and early warning systems did not pick up the anomalies until it was far too late, and even if they had, there was no Republic Cruiser full of Jedi nearby to save the day.

All seven fragments were traveling along the system’s ecliptic, but Ab Dalis was not as densely populated as Hetzal. Space was immense, and the fragments were, in comparison, tiny.

Six of them hit nothing, passing through the system and out the other side without incident.

The seventh hit a glancing blow on the most densely populated world of the system, a swampy wasteland interrupted only by city-sized factories, slums inhabited by the workers who operated those factories, and, here and there, the towers inhabited by those who profited from both. The fragment was vaporized in the impact, but the concussion flattened one of those cities, and the slums, and the towers.

Approximately twenty million people were killed.

This was the first Emergence.

---

Chapter 28 confirms the destructive results of the Emergence are not theoretical:

But they didn’t. The third Emergence occurred just as expected, and yes, the Legacy Run fragment was headed straight for Eriadu’s inhabited moon, estimated population one point two billion. Gravhan’s team fired their weapons exactly as scheduled, right on time.

Except the target wasn’t there. The New Elite had miscalculated its microburn, and had hugely overshot the spot they were aiming for. They were nowhere near the Emergence, and the laser blasts and torpedoes flashed out, hitting nothing.

Kassav realized immediately. He shot a glance at Dellex. She knew it, too. She was looking right at him.

“Boss, I must have…I must have screwed up the nav calculation. I don’t know how it happened.”

Kassav had his suspicions. Her one organic eye was still glinting, awash in the smash, and he knew for sure she hadn’t taken that rounder. It didn’t take much to mess up a nav calculation, and Dellex was normally a champion at it because of her mechanical components, but this time…this time…

The Legacy Run fragment smashed into the moon. Everyone on the bridge saw it happen. It was projected up on the vidwall, clear as day. Big debris cloud mushrooming out from the surface, shock waves starting to roll across the little world, lots of fire and those dark clouds you got with the really huge explosions. Like a storm, kind of.

A voice came over the comm, echoing out across the now utterly silent Nihil. No chuckles from them now. Just silence.

“You will pay for this,” said Governor Mural Veen, her voice maybe the coldest thing Kassav had ever heard. “This I vow: vengeance. The people of Eriadu are hunters. You and all the monsters with you have now become our pr—”

Kassav tapped a console, and the voice went silent.

He looked at his Tempest and knew what they were thinking.

One point two billion people.

Oh well.

Not his problem.

---

Jedi Survivor Emergence Scans and Visual Evidence

Emergences were the result of a catastrophic event in High Republic history, the consequences of which was chuncks of debris emerging from hyperspace and colliding with nearby planets or objects at incredible speeds. One such Emergence occured over Koboh, devastating its moon and raining meteors down on the planet.

---

Now, the Light of the Jedi states that the debris needed to be slowed down from 1 to 5 percent of its initial speed:

“Master Te’Ami,” he said. He wasn’t sure if the Duros Jedi actually was a Jedi Master, or a Jedi Knight, or some other rank in the Order, but he called them all Master. Better safe than sorry. Joss didn’t know if the Jedi could even get offended, but why take a chance?

“Yes, Captain Adren?” came the Jedi’s voice, cool and utterly without tension, even though she was facing the same impossible problems he was.

“I might have an idea. But I have a question. You know how you guys can move things around by thinking about it?”

A bit of a pause.

“We use our connection to the Force, but yes, I know what you mean.”

“Can you stop things from moving around?”

Another, longer pause.

“I see where you’re going with this, Captain, but we’re not gods. We can’t just stop that thing cold.”

“Not asking you to,” Joss said, rolling his eyes at Pikka, who grinned at him. “We have something aboard that might be able to slow it down, but it’s not easy to use. We’ll have to try to match velocity with the fragment, and we all know how fast it’s going. It’ll take every bit of engine power we have, and a lot of our fuel, just to accelerate to where we need to be.

“If you can slow it down even a little, even five percent, even one percent, it could make a big difference. At these speeds, even a minor downward shift in velocity would still mean a significant reduction in the resources we’d have to expend.”

“One moment,” Te’Ami said. The line went cold, and Joss figured she was probably talking to the other Jedi, seeing if they thought this would work.

The comm hissed back to life.

“We’ll do what we can,” the Jedi said.

“Excellent,” Joss said. Then a thought, and he leaned forward and spoke into the comm again.

---

The anomaly was on the larger side, bigger than the Longbeam, and on a collision course with the moon’s primary landmass. Due to its velocity, a significant portion of the moon’s outer layer would be instantly vaporized on impact, surging into the atmosphere. Then would come the heat, the flames, scouring the surface clean of all life, plant and animal and sentient alike. (First Passage from above)

One of the objects leapt out of hyperspace, so near, and moving so fast, that in astronomical terms it was on them the moment it appeared.

A gout of flame, and the anomaly vanished, along with the monitoring station, its two scantechs, and all their goals, fears, skills, hopes, and dreams; the kinetic energy of the object atomizing everything it touched in less than an instant.

---

I don't know the dimensions of the Longbeam, so I'll assume the measurements of the CR90 Corvette: 237654 meters^3 (Corvette Dimensions) and Star Wars Density (370 kg/m^3, from here). 237,654 x 370 = 87,931,980 kg. In a Relativistic KE calculator under 0.5c, we'd get 292.21 Teratons (Large Country Level). The endgame calculation would likely be in this range.

However, based on this thread alone, Jedi/Sith should scale to Relativistic Reactions.

 

[FinePoint]

Where exactly were the Jedi in relation to the debris?

If it was falling onto the same planet as them, or even just traveling through space, couldn't they just see it from really far away?

I guess follow-up: Does a Jedi need to be able to track the exact location/velocity of an object to use the Force on it?

 

[Naeem0304]

@FinePoint (I apologize for not elaborating on this section)
Chapter 15 Scans

The Jedi had discussed their approach, but only briefly. Their task was, on the face of it, simple. They reached out with the Force, touched the passenger compartment on all sides, embraced it in all the power and energy they could command, and understood its nature as best they could. Every surface, every beam, strut, and cable, and most important—the lives inside it, the beings they were trying to save.

This was like that—they were lassoing the passenger compartment with the Force—but the chances of a soft landing seemed unlikely. The Jedi closed their loops around the racing chunk of wreckage and pulled back. Te’Ami’s breath left her with a whoosh, her lungs emptying. Nothing had changed about her physical location—she was still seated in the cockpit of her Vector, speeding at the same velocity she had a moment before—but it didn’t feel that way. It felt like she had been yanked out into open space and was being dragged along, utterly out of control.

It seemed impossible that anything the four Jedi could do would influence the speed of this thing in any way, but they had to try. Joss Adren had been clear—even a one percent change could be significant.

“Slow...it down...” she managed, speaking through gritted teeth. She could feel oil gathering in the sacs along her ribs, her body’s involuntary response to great strain. The acrid stink of the stuff filled her cockpit, an evolutionary throwback and defense mechanism from the days when the Duros were liable to be eaten by any number of things prowling their world.

“Trying...” Mikkel spat back, strain in his natural voice slipping past the translator’s efforts to subdue it. Te’Ami wondered how Ithorians responded to stress. Probably not by producing large amounts of horrible-tasting oil.

“Captain Adren,” Te’Ami said, “we’ve done what we can. If you’re going to do something, now is the moment.”

Through the Force, Te’Ami could feel new strains and stressors on the system, all its complex linkages and connections. Longbeam to wreckage, Force to Jedi, wreckage to Force, and now a new note of confusion from the poor survivors inside the compartment, who must have heard the thumps as the clamps engaged, probably sounding like kicks from a giant, with no idea what was about to happen to them.

Honestly, Te’Ami didn’t know, either. The Longbeam activated its thrusters and dropped out of formation, the long, thick cabling stretching, growing thin, then impossibly thin, then vanishing to the naked eye. Captain Adren had told her this would happen, the silk that composed the cables was able to stretch almost to the molecular level and retain its strength. The cables were holding. The compartment to which they were attached...perhaps not so much.

It didn’t seem like it would work. It was too much all at once—on top of everything else, the exhausted Jedi had to keep their Vectors flying at top speed, close enough to the passenger compartment that they could maintain their links.

Then one became two, and more, and the objects working against one another became a single system.

The compartment slowed. More, and more, until it came to a slow stop, the Longbeam reeling it in on its cables.

The 4 Jedi used the Force to slow the Longbeam (going at roughly 50% the Speed of Light) by 1% so that it could be reeled to a stop by a cable.

---

According to the Chapter undernotes:

The feat occurs in 10 minutes.

---

And to answer your question on their distance:

Three Jedi Vectors flew in formation above and to either side of the Republic Longbeam piloted by Joss and Pikka Adren. Te’Ami to the larger ship’s right, Mikkel Sutmani to its left, and Nib Assek and Burryaga above. They had accelerated to the limits of their ship’s capabilities, chasing the speeding projectile due to impact the Fruited Moon in a matter of minutes, killing billions—those on the moon as well as the people aboard the anomaly.

They had closed a great deal of distance, burning almost all of their fuel in the process, but were now within striking range of the object. Their sensors had finally identified it as a modular passenger compartment, the sort of thing Snapped into cargo ship frameworks to temporarily allow them to transport travelers. Largely self-sufficient, with dedicated life-support systems and onboard batteries, even individual hyperspace field emitters linked to the mothership’s navigation and propulsion. At the moment, it was functioning almost like a large escape pod, though without engines, unable to direct or slow itself. While that explained how it could have people aboard, it did not clarify


How it had suddenly appeared in the Hetzal system from hyperspace with no warning.

This was like that—they were lassoing the passenger compartment with the Force—but the chances of a soft landing seemed unlikely. The Jedi closed their loops around the racing chunk of wreckage and pulled back. Te’Ami’s breath left her with a whoosh, her lungs emptying. Nothing had changed about her physical location—she was still seated in the cockpit of her Vector, speeding at the same velocity she had a moment before—but it didn’t feel that way. It felt like she had been yanked out into open space and was being dragged along, utterly out of control.

They were in space. Also, it seems the Jedi needed to track the precise location of the object before actually using the force on it, since they needed to "close a great distance" to be within "striking range of the object." Velocity doesn't seem to be a notable issue.

 

[FinePoint]

They were in space. Also, it seems the Jedi needed to track the precise location of the object before actually using the force on it, since they needed to "close a great distance" to be within "striking range of the object." Velocity doesn't seem to be a notable issue.

Thank you so much. You have no idea how refreshing it is to have a scan not be seven links to obscure Twitter threads, to be honest.

So, it does seem they needed to know its exact position and all of its inner-workings and marry it or whatever, so I suppose let's think critically as to whether or not they would need relativistic reactions for this.

First of all, perspective-wise: they had accelerated as much as they could to match the speed of it and chase it, getting as close as possible. They don't seem to explicitly say how fast or how close, but we can imagine that relatively the object was no longer traveling anywhere near 50% the speed of light from their perspective. So from a literal perspective, tracking it from this point wouldn't need relativistic reactions.

However, they need to have a deep personal understanding of every aspect of the forces acting on this ship, which is traveling at 50% the speed of light. So now we need to ask ourselves, ironically, how does the ship feel? At this speed it should be (according to Google) experiencing time dilation, length contraction, and relativistic mass increases with a factor of about 1.15. Other than that, an object has no sense of its own velocity, so these are the only factors which are related to its speed. As it slowed down, they'd need to adjust as this effects changes, but given that it happens over several minutes and wasn't that severe to begin with I think it's probably nothing special for a Jedi.

So, in conclusion:

I don't think this is a feat of Relativistic Reactions.

However it is definitely a force feat for... the Force. Slowing something by 1% the speed of light is slowing it by about 3 million meters per second. If you divide that by the seconds in ten minutes you get an acceleration of -5,000 m/s^2, or 509 Gs.
If we take your value of 87,931,980kg and assume it's correct (and ignore the 1.15x relativistic effects because it's minor and beyond my pay grade)

Then we get a force of about...
439659900000 (e11) newtons, which I think is Class G Lifting Strength.

Obviously this isn't a proper calculation, but I wanted to do a quick estimation.

 

[FinePoint]

Oh, and in case it wasn't obvious: I think this is a Lifting Strength feat, not an Attack Potency feat.

They realistically didn't nullify its entire kinetic energy at that speed, and the bit of it they did was overtime by pulling on it.

 

[Naeem0304]

Thank you so much. You have no idea how refreshing it is to have a scan not be seven links to obscure Twitter threads, to be honest.

So, it does seem they needed to know its exact position and all of its inner-workings and marry it or whatever, so I suppose let's think critically as to whether or not they would need relativistic reactions for this.

First of all, perspective-wise: they had accelerated as much as they could to match the speed of it and chase it, getting as close as possible. They don't seem to explicitly say how fast or how close, but we can imagine that relatively the object was no longer traveling anywhere near 50% the speed of light from their perspective. So from a literal perspective, tracking it from this point wouldn't need relativistic reactions.

However, they need to have a deep personal understanding of every aspect of the forces acting on this ship, which is traveling at 50% the speed of light. So now we need to ask ourselves, ironically, how does the ship feel? At this speed it should be (according to Google) experiencing time dilation, length contraction, and relativistic mass increases with a factor of about 1.15. Other than that, an object has no sense of its own velocity, so these are the only factors which are related to its speed. As it slowed down, they'd need to adjust as this effects changes, but given that it happens over several minutes and wasn't that severe to begin with I think it's probably nothing special for a Jedi.

So, in conclusion:

I don't think this is a feat of Relativistic Reactions.

However it is definitely a force feat for... the Force. Slowing something by 1% the speed of light is slowing it by about 3 million meters per second. If you divide that by the seconds in ten minutes you get an acceleration of -5,000 m/s^2, or 509 Gs.
If we take your value of 87,931,980kg and assume it's correct (and ignore the 1.15x relativistic effects because it's minor and beyond my pay grade)

Then we get a force of about...
439659900000 (e11) newtons, which I think is Class G Lifting Strength.

Obviously this isn't a proper calculation, but I wanted to do a quick estimation.

No, thank you so much for the time and effort put into this response; I agree with your reasoning, and Class G seems like a good preliminary for a canon Star Wars upgrade (it might be lower or higher, depending on where the Longbeams volume/mass gets to.) Maybe in the future, a higher AP justification will come about (through a legimitate AP feat, since as you said, this doesn't qualify), but the lifting strength stance is 100% fair

Also, I understand how annoying it can be to search Twitter threads for extremely uncanny links and scans. Geez, it's a pain.

 

[FinePoint]

No, thank you so much for the time and effort put into this response; I agree with your reasoning, and Class G seems like a good preliminary for a canon Star Wars upgrade (it might be lower or higher, depending on where the Longbeams volume/mass gets to.) Maybe in the future, a higher AP justification will come about (through a legimitate AP feat, since as you said, this doesn't qualify), but the lifting strength stance is 100% fair

Also, I understand how annoying it can be to search Twitter threads for extremely uncanny links and scans. Geez, it's a pain.

No problem!

Oh, and don't forget it was done by multiple people (4 I think?).
So you'd have to divide it.

You should definitely get a proper calc for the number.
But as for my job: I approve that this seems to be an applicable feat.

If you're not a math nerd yourself, you can see here for information about requesting a calculation from the calc group.
If you are a math nerd, you can see here for information about submitting your own calculation.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Even though it dosen't follow the context of this thread i saw in a book that vader was described as the "ultimate weapon in mcu" can this be used to scale him to the death star?

 

[FinePoint]

Even though it dosen't follow the context of this thread i saw in a book that vader was described as the "ultimate weapon in mcu" can this be used to scale him to the death star?

Isn't this contradicted by there being siths stronger than him anyway?

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Isn't this contradicted by there being siths stronger than him anyway?

I think this statment reffers Palpatines weapons as it is his empire and based on that he would be most powerful sith

 

[OTG0001]

Isn't this contradicted by there being siths stronger than him anyway?

Being the "ultimate weapon" of the empire doesn't inherently mean he scales above the Death Star in AP or DC.

 

[Cropfist]

Being the "ultimate weapon" of the empire doesn't inherently mean he scales above the Death Star in AP or DC.

This is consistent with his statement about the force > death star though.

 

[OTG0001]

This is consistent with his statement about the force > death star though.

Thats the problem. It's refering to the Force itself, not Vader's own power.

 

[Doggo]

Vader Destroys Rebels

vsbattles.fandom.com

well we have this atleast

 

[Doggo]

and maybe this

 

[Isaacbobanka]

and maybe this

I watched a key series video talking about Vader being star level via the crystal that empowers the final fleet is it a valid feat?

 

[Cropfist]

Thats the problem. It's refering to the Force itself, not Vader's own power.

Vader is a top tier when it comes to the force.

 

[FinePoint]

Vader is a top tier when it comes to the force.

Nobody has complete control over the entire Force, though.

 

[OTG0001]

Vader is a top tier when it comes to the force.

The statement, again, was in reference to the Force. Simply being a strong Force user does not scale you to the Force by any means.

 

[OTG0001]

I watched a key series video talking about Vader being star level via the crystal that empowers the final fleet is it a valid feat?

No, as the Kyber Crystals are specifically amped into the planet-killing superweapon we see in TROS. The crystals by themselves cannot output that power.

 

[FinePoint]

It's also not really the focus of this thread.
@Naeem0304
Was the calculation ever accepted?

 

[IDK3465]

Oh, and in case it wasn't obvious: I think this is a Lifting Strength feat, not an Attack Potency feat.

They realistically didn't nullify its entire kinetic energy at that speed, and the bit of it they did was overtime by pulling on it.

I’m sorry for asking, but I don’t really understand why this still can’t be used for AP. Even though it did take around 10 minutes to accomplish, I don’t see why we can’t just take the difference in KE or the total work done and divide it by the timeframe to get energy per second.

 

[FinePoint]

I’m sorry for asking, but I don’t really understand why this still can’t be used for AP. Even though it did take around 10 minutes to accomplish, I don’t see why we can’t just take the difference in KE or the total work done and divide it by the timeframe to get energy per second.

Because either way it's not an attack, it's them pulling something.

 

[IDK3465]

Because either way it's not an attack, it's them pulling something.

Just because it isn’t a direct attack doesn’t mean they aren’t applying some amount of energy into it. From what I know, the Force is a UES, wouldn’t that mean any kind of Force-based feat scale to other stats? Not to be rude, but under this logic, creation feats can’t scale to AP no matter what, as they’re not a direct attack, regardless of if a character can apply that same energy used in the creation into a more offensive move.

 

[FinePoint]

Just because it isn’t a direct attack doesn’t mean they aren’t applying some amount of energy into it. From what I know, the Force is a UES, wouldn’t that mean any kind of Force-based feat scale to other stats?

I wouldn't know. I'm not super knowledgeable on our Star Wars standards here, even though I've seen all the movies and a bunch of the shows.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

No, as the Kyber Crystals are specifically amped into the planet-killing superweapon we see in TROS. The crystals by themselves cannot output that power.

Can you show where this was said as based on both Rebels and in movie it seems that kyber crystals contain high amounts of energy as we see in Rebels when the ship explodes the kyber crystals charches up a massive explosion powerful enough to wipe a star destroyer out.

 

[OTG0001]

Just because it isn’t a direct attack doesn’t mean they aren’t applying some amount of energy into it. From what I know, the Force is a UES, wouldn’t that mean any kind of Force-based feat scale to other stats? Not to be rude, but under this logic, creation feats can’t scale to AP no matter what, as they’re not a direct attack, regardless of if a character can apply that same energy used in the creation into a more offensive move.

It probably should. They are using TK to accomplish this feat, and TK can be used in offensive forms like Force pushes and the like.

 

[OTG0001]

Can you show where this was said as based on both Rebels and in movie it seems that kyber crystals contain high amounts of energy as we see in Rebels when the ship explodes the kyber crystals charches up a massive explosion powerful enough to wipe a star destroyer out.

IIRC, it's in the TROS visual dictionary.

That instance was the explosion of a Kyber Crystal, not bleeding it which is what Palpatine was doing.

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

bump, is this still going?

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Bump for interest.