DOOM feats revision

[Darius2036]

The majority the arguments here come from G1DBFB's Master Chief vs Doom Slayer page, which contests DOOM's cosmic power levels used on this site. I want see what's your response to these argument, since I've never seen anyone try to dispute DOOM's cosmic feats in these site and I feel like it's been given too much leniency here.

Davoth and the Engines of Creation​

Davoth is credited for the creation of the DOOM multiverse, but one thing I've never seen people bring up or discuss in-depth is the exact method he used. The codex of the Book of the Seraphs makes multiple mentions of a device called the Engines of Creation, which apart from being used to separate/reinstall life spheres, they're also stated to have been used by the Father (actually Davoth) to create universes like Earth's.

Deep in Hell lies the Ingmore's Sanctum, a fragment of Urdak itself. It is sacred and protected ground that contains the Tomb of Souls, where the life spheres of the many gods the Father created are stored. Each one immensely powerful in its own way, yet judged to be flawed by the Father. The stories of their abominable ends in the physical realm are many.

It was from here the Father first created the new dimension of Jekkad. It was here he formed Davoth. And it was this ground that served as his first workshop and as a retreat from Urdak, where the Father could direct the engines of creation and oversee Jekkad's gleaming spires and glorious civilization. Samur could travel to the Sanctum, but never into Jekkad. The Father would keep his realms separated.

After creating Jekkad, the Father retreated to his workshop to plan the Earth realm. It was also here that the Father meditated on the future of existence, and made his plan to withdraw from the physical world.

Book of the Seraphs - Part VI

The Engines of Creation are stated to harness the power of the Void between dimensions in order to create things. This is fitting since another of Davoth's creations, the Seraphs, are described to have been molded from the Void. It's also stated that the Seraphs helped create the dimensions alongside Davoth, and they're currently in possession of the same Engines of Creation that he used.

The very first creations molded from the void in Urdak. Seraphs are bound to the Father's will. The angelic creatures helped build the Father's works, assisted his research, and once winged through creation to do the Father's bidding. After the Battle of Isonkast, the Father stripped them of their wings.

In atonement, the Seraphs built the Luminarium for the Father on the oldest sliver of Urdak, and took cool pride in building their marvels, including machines that could contain the terrible energies of the very essence of life. In order to prevent the Seraphs from seeking power, the Father ordered that they serve any who reach the Luminarium. Their laws and codes would serve all who arrive equally, and favor none.

Book of the Seraphs - Part II

Any supplicant may approach the holy ground of the Luminarium with life sphere in hand. Be they the most powerful in Hell, or the weakest in Urdak, all can approach the Luminarium to gain access to the power of corporal resurrection, though few minds are capable of surviving it. In the Luminarium the Seraphs serve all of Creation without preference.

It is only in the Luminarium that the resurrection can take place, and only the Seraphs that can give a life sphere the return of its original form, calling on the engines of creation to harness the great powers that lay between the dimensions.

It is a safe place, a hallowed ground, where the Father once looked over all who approached him to listen to his eternal word.

Book of the Seraphs - Part VII

The engines of creation are not metaphors or poetic words, but structures that lay just on the other side of reality itself. Under the Luminarium they breach the void's walls to touch the physical world.

Hell's machines can pull a soul from its body and process it into Argent. But Hell cannot return a soul to a body. It will never resurrect what it has consumed. It takes energies far more exotic than any Hell controls to not just cleave a being's essence from its body, but reincorporate it. Hell's machines are toys to what lies under the Luminarium.

The Seraphs proudly control these forces, calmly manipulating the nature of creation and mind to give life again to raw energy. Every life sphere resurrected is a sign of Seraph power and competence. The realms age around the Luminarium, but the Seraphs will always stand as the greatest engineers of the many dimensions the Father created.

Book of the Seraphs - Part X

In summary, Davoth didn't use his own power/essence to create the multiverse. He utilized a machine (The Engines of Creation) that harnessed an energy source that's never been shown to be AP-applicable (the energy of the Void).

This of course would also affect how Davoth scales to the Void as shown in his profile, which was already too generous to begin with since he's only been described to interact with an undefined portion of the Void and he's never been stated to control it's entire structure.

Argent Tower's explosion​

This is a feat given to Doom Slayer in his 2016 key that supposedly gives him Universe Level+ durability based on this:

Universe level+ (Withstood an Argent Energy explosion of the Argent Tower which was described as a category four dimensional event, Argent Energy is a boundless power source made from extra-dimensional resources that can give infinite power)

First of all, is "Category 4 dimensional event" really used to argue that this explosion is 4D in terms of AP? Because not only could this be easily interpreted as "a dimensional event of Category 4", but Argent energy has been measured using conventional units of our 3D universe like Megawatt-Hour.

Argent energy being boundless/infinite just refers to the fact that it is an inexhaustible source of energy. Extradimensional is often used to describe something that comes from outside regular spacetime or a different universe, which is what Hell/Jekkad is.

Infinite Doom Slayer and Immeasurable Seraphs​

Infinite (Slayer was able to travel across the nine circles of Hell, which has depths that are bottomless, referred as "Dominion of Endless Shadow". Contains an endless void and endless number of demons

There is no reason to believe that just because a place is called "Dominion of Endless Shadow" then the "endless" should be taken literally.

The "void" mentioned in that codex is not described as "endless", but rather "eternal", which is not a description of size (a mistake people made with Dragon Ball's World of Void).

The "endless demons" may be the best argument, but then again this could be argued to refer how Hell makes demon by corrupting its victims taken from countless of other dimensions.

There's also the fact that Doom Slayer could've just use technology for dimensional travel like he does in multiple games.

Immeasurable with wings (The Seraphs with their wings were said to have winged through creation. Seraphs are able to move through time and space. They held sway over all dominions of the known and unknown dimensions. In his transfigured form, he regains his wings)

The Book of the Seraphs does not specify how much of creation was traversed. Maykrs are also shown to have access to multiple ways to dimensional travel, like teleportation and portal creation. It's also very likely that "winged through creation" is a metaphor, as the Book of the Seraphs also uses a lot of metaphors to the point that Part X has to point out when something is not to be taken as metaphorical or poetic words.

While the Story of the Sentinels - Part II states that the Maykrs can "move through time and space", this part also comes with an image of the Maykrs arriving through a portal.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, it is very frowned upon to copy/paste arguments from random blogs offsite; especially things like Death Battle Predictions. Especially that they take a lot of things out of context. I'm talking about some rejected, feats for Master Chief such as various aim dodging feats, or withstanding splash effects without taking inverse square law or thermal equilibrium into account.

But for the DOOM feats, Davoth creating the multiverse is quite blatant, and he uses the same UES of Argent energy and does so casually. Likewise, it over looks Samuel Makyr's feat of shaking the Multiverse, which would still effectively scale to the entire size of the multiverse. I'm not the one who upgraded to Tier 1, so I'm unsure how to answer that and I'd ping more DOOM experts for that.

As for the Speed, it did say "Wing through all creation" effectively they entered an infinite number of universes one by one within a finite amount of time. Which is effectively infinite. As for the Immeasurable speed parts, yeah I can see some contention. But still want to hear from the experts.

@Firestorm808 @ShionAH @Martinngamer @Kilgorethecouch and not sure who else.

 

[Firestorm808]

Per the Book of the Seraphs - Part I, Davoth casually created entire realities from the void before the Engines of Creation were even built.

The Luminarium aka Engines of Creation was used for one purpose, corporal resurrection. It doesn't create realities. Nothing in the Codex suggests that the Engines were used to do anything else.

Regarding the Argent Tower's Explosion, I was not part of the discussion rating it as Tier 2. I was fine with the previous rating for the 2016 Key as: At least Town level (Withstood the Argent Tower Explosion), higher with Power-Ups.

Regarding speed, I was not part of the discussion that rated it as infinite in his 2016 Key. I was fine with the previous rating for the 2016 Key as: At least Supersonic+ (Likely much faster than before, can move this fast), higher with the Power-Ups and Runes. At least Hypersonic attack speed with the Gauss Cannon, likely higher

Samur Maykr, with his wings, does not teleport. The first agreed speed thread confirmed that his wings don't provide teleporting or use portals. We clearly see during the fight that Samur's purple essence travels in a line from point A to B. In turn, winged Serafs can travel to different points of creation through speed alone. At the time, staff agreed with: Infinite, possibly Immeasurable. I do not recall a staff agreement for a solid Immeasurable rating.

 

[Abstractions]

I think the terminology of "winged through creation" to be too vague to constitute a solid rating, especially if we know they have other means to get around. It also creates a stark contrast between what we are told to believe vs. what is on the screen when Slayer is killing them with guns as he would anything else, why would he need to use portals at all if he and the Maykrs were truly this fast?

Samur Maykr, with his wings, does not teleport. The first agreed speed thread confirmed that his wings don't provide teleporting or use portals. We clearly see during the fight that Samur's purple essence travels in a line from point A to B

I have Eternal to play through but haven't gotten around to it yet, but how was it necessarily confirmed that he doesn't have access to such abilities? Because he didn't use them when he was fought?

At least Supersonic+ (Likely much faster than before, can move this fast), higher with the Power-Ups and Runes. At least Hypersonic attack speed with the Gauss Cannon, likely higher

I have my own issues with his base speed statistic, but I that should probably be the subject for another thread.

 

[Firestorm808]

I think the terminology of "winged through creation" to be too vague to constitute a solid rating, especially if we know they have other means to get around. It also creates a stark contrast between what we are told to believe vs. what is on the screen when Slayer is killing them with guns as he would anything else, why would he need to use portals at all if he and the Maykrs were truly this fast?

To clarify, it is only the Winged Seraphs who have this ability, not all winged Maykrs. Samur is the only Seraph to regain their wings that we meet and fight in-game.

 

[Abstractions]

To clarify, it is only the Winged Seraphs who have this ability, not all winged Maykrs. Samur is the only one we meet and fight in-game.

Is Khan Maykr classified as a Seraph? Perhaps this is an error on the person who made the page but they are scaled directly to this feat.

 

[Firestorm808]

Is Khan Maykr classified as a Seraph? Perhaps this is an error on the person who made the page but they are scaled directly to this feat.

We do not classify her as a Seraph. Seraphs were explicitly stripped of her wings. The Kahn Maykr is a different category. This seems to have been an error during one of the previous revisions. I recall only rating her as "possibly/likely" scaling to Samur, not a full rating.

 

[Hellscream]

Damn daniel, i logged back in just for this.
Either way the entire blog is based upon a whole lotta nothing, it's just some short researched 20 minute blog, without even properly knowing the lore / arguments..

First of all, like was stated before "the engines of creation" which came forth from Urdak, is not the first thing that was created by davoth. Jekkad, aka Hell was his first creation out of which the entirety of the cosmology is based upon.
There's also the thing that the entire cosmology, is just an extension of Davoth's power, and Jekkad itself literally transformed into hell, due to his emotional state.

Second, about the argent energy explosion, Argent energy is literally stated to surpass our laws of physics which is why it's called extradimensional.
And the statements about it possessing infinite power can also be taken literal.
It doesnt mean that just because humans can't fully utilize / harness the power of argent energy, that the energy isn't that potent.
The Humans in DOOM aren't a type 5 civilization.
Absolute hot itself, has more energy than a universe. Argent Energy goes beyond these theoretical limits.
This also combines with the crucible, being capable of corrupting ALL realms, and is also powered by Argent energy.

The last part about immeasurable speed, they were helping the Father with his research and it's specifically referring to ALL of creation, not just a part of it.

"Most favored of all Seraphs was Samur Maykr. It was he who administered worlds, studied divine experiments, and reported progress in all creation. After much time, the Father grew frustrated with his own many divine errors, most vexing of all being Jekkad and its continued slide into discordance. The Father declared he would withdraw from the physical realm to prevent Jekkad's ever increasing power from someday shattering Urdak, and to stop Davoth from absorbing the Father's infinite powers that he so coveted."

You can't logically administer all of creation through "teleportation" especially given how huge the DOOM cosmology is.
It has Multiverses, and a countless amount of dimensions. So yes, we can definetly take the statement literal as we can with the entirety of the codex.
Their wings are also used for flight itself.

They're letting out a whole lot of context and information in that blog.

Also, point out what's metaphoric about the engines of creation codex entry.

 

[Abstractions]

First of all, like was stated before "the engines of creation" which came forth from Urdak, is not the first thing that was created by davoth. Jekkad, aka Hell was his first creation out of which the entirety of the cosmology is based upon.

"It is written by the Seraphs that when the void first appeared, the Father alone swept across it. New realities bloomed where he lingered, and when he stopped to rest, Urdak sprung forth from him. Here, the Father experimented until he created Jekkad, a realm superior to Urdak. The Father gifted Jekkad's denizens with burning ambition and he suppressed restraint, so that indecisiveness could not curb their efforts." - Book of the Seraphs 1

If I am to understand things properly and that the Book of the Seraphs is allocating the feats of Davoth to the Father, the implication here then suggests that Urdak came about before Jekkad, yes? Is there a quote that tells us otherwise?

And the statements about it possessing infinite power can also be taken literal.

Except, it cannot be infinite when the power it provides can be sensibly measured, it is functionally infinite only in that it's a renewable resource and thus wouldn't run out.

You can't logically administer all of creation through "teleportation" especially given how huge the DOOM cosmology is.

If the gripe is that you think multiverse travel with portals and teleportation is unfeasible the situation doesn't sound solved with speed alone.

Their wings are also used for flight itself.

I would hope so? This doesn't actually say anything beyond the obvious.

 

[Hellscream]

Jekkad is the first realm, you need to know the context and the reason of the creation of Urdak.
Urdak and the Maykr in general were created in order to assist Davoth, in finding a remedy for the mortality of the people in Jekkad.
They betrayed Davoth later on, after finding the cure to this mortality which caused him to become furious, and due to his fury, his first creation which is Jekkad, transformed into hell.

Basically swap out Urdak, with Jekkad and The Father with Davoth.

It can't be sensibly measured lol.. they literally state it goes beyond the theoretical limits of temperature, which means it's beyond physics as we know it.
being specifically beyond theoretical limits of temperature comes automatically with a certain level of potency, which is proven by the crucible that is powered by the same source.

And you're taking my argument out of context. I didn't say they're just travelling through a multiverse, or teleportation.
Im saying they're administering ALL of creation.
Also it is actually solvable with speed alone, it's literally what immeasurable speed does.. it's completely logical for the scope of what's being done.

"Most favored of all Seraphs was Samur Maykr. It was he who administered worlds, studied divine experiments, and reported progress in all creation. After much time, the Father grew frustrated with his own many divine errors, most vexing of all being Jekkad and its continued slide into discordance. The Father declared he would withdraw from the physical realm to prevent Jekkad's ever increasing power from someday shattering Urdak, and to stop Davoth from absorbing the Father's infinite powers that he so coveted."

this applies to the "winged through creation" statement as Samur Maykr, is one of the seraph's in question.

Also it does say something obvious.. because he's the seraphim that "winged through creation" it's a supportive feat

 

[Firestorm808]

It can't be sensibly measured lol.. they literally state it goes beyond the theoretical limits of temperature, which means it's beyond physics as we know it.
being specifically beyond theoretical limits of temperature comes automatically with a certain level of potency, which is proven by the crucible that is powered by the same source.

To clarify, the Argent Tower explosion is being evaluated by the type of energy the explosion was made of. It's proposed that the size of the explosion was a range vs energy concentration difference.

 

[Abstractions]

Jekkad is the first realm, you need to know the context and the reason of the creation of Urdak.

You're saying it is the first realm, yet the text seems to indicate otherwise. So I'm just asking for a line of dialogue (from Davoth or someone else), a quote or a reference to otherwise contradict this.

It can't be sensibly measured lol.. they literally state it goes beyond theoretical limits, which means it's beyond physics as we know it.
being specifically beyond theoretical limits of temperature comes automatically with a certain level of potency, which is proven by the crucible that is powered by the same source.

"previously accepted theoretical limits" is the direct line, as quoted here:

"Argent Energy is produced by neutron activation of Argent plasma, a new and powerful substance that was discovered on Mars. This produces an exothermic reaction where recorded temperatures within the plasma have exceeded previously accepted theoretical limits." - Decoded Entry 002

It appears to be discussing the temperature of the plasma itself, which as a state of matter has a temperature range and not the absolute hottest something can get.

It is also quantified as a resource in the very same entry:

"When the UAC unveiled an Argent Energy powered, hand sized 24-volt battery with over 12,000 megawatt-hours, the future of energy supply within the Solar System was set. One battery array could power an entire city block for several months."

If the resource was completely infinite, it wouldn't run out at all here.

this applies to the "winged through creation" statement as Samur Maykr, is one of the seraph's in question.

Except it doesn't, the statements are separate from one another and can co-exist without telling us that they are Immeasurable.

 

[Firestorm808]

If the gripe is that you think multiverse travel with portals and teleportation is unfeasible the situation doesn't sound solved with speed alone.

To put things into perspective, the non-seraph Maykrs were using portals to travel across space and dimensions.

The Winged Seraphs didn't need to use portals. As depicted when Samur uses his wings in the fight, he moves in a line.

If it was teleportation or portals, there would be no line connecting points A and B in regular space.

For portals, it would just be a hole in space connecting the two points with nothing in between in regular space (see the portal games). This doesn't happen.

If it was teleportation, Samur would move instantaneously from one location to another without physically occupying the space in between. This doesn't happen.

 

[Firestorm808]

You're saying it is the first realm, yet the text seems to indicate otherwise. So I'm just asking for a line of dialogue (from Davoth or someone else), a quote or a reference to otherwise contradict this.

The truth of the Book of the Seraphs is revealed in the Story of Hell.

The Betrayal of the Father​

ARC DATA ENTRY 172

Our research shows that Maykr history and lore holds truths that are not consistent with passages found in the Hell Priest texts, revealing the true origins of Hell and all surrounding dimensions. This revelation would explain why Hell is the single dimension that connects to all others, and why it is the oldest in existence - the first world.

In the beginning the world of Jekkad (later known as Hell) prospered under the guidance of their leader Davoth.

The Makyrs basically role reversed Vega with Davoth and Urdak with Jekkad.

 

[Abstractions]

The Makyrs basically role reversed Vega with Davoth and Urdak with Jekkad.

If I am to understand things properly and that the Book of the Seraphs is allocating the feats of Davoth to the Father, the implication here then suggests that Urdak came about before Jekkad, yes? Is there a quote that tells us otherwise?

I acknowledged the role-reversals of who made what, was just looking for the reversal of events.

The Winged Seraphs didn't need to use portals. As depicted when Samur uses his wings in the fight, he moves in a line.

He seems to blip in and out of existence when moving, yes. But I'm still failing to see how this negates the need for portal tech and teleportation, as he himself has already previously demonstrated?

It still spells a major contradiction that the Slayer is supposed to be comparable in this regard and yet requires portals to get to such locations, it would make it more consistent to say that they both require portals and that "winging through creation" is just flowery language for the fact they can fly around and transport themselves between dimensions.

If it was teleportation, Samur would move instantaneously from one location to another without physically occupying the space in between. This doesn't happen.

We see a vague line of where he goes during combat when he does decide to move, but when he disappears and reappears it's always gives us an outline of a portal of some kind.

I don't mean to deceive or anything when I describe it as that, but you must see where I get that impression from the movement.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Since we are just linking stuff off-site and using that as arguments...

Aside from that, disagree FRA.

 

[Firestorm808]

I acknowledged the role-reversals of who made what, was just looking for the reversal of events.

To clarify, you would like us to give you the final order of events in the creation story?

 

[Abstractions]

To clarify, you would like us to give you the final order of events in the creation story?

A summary if you could, yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If there are an infinite number of universes, and they at least stepped foot in each and everyone one of them, Infinite is the lowest possible interpretation for speed. And It wouldn't even matter if it was flight or teleportation if they still were momentarily present in each in everyone one of the infinite universes within a finite amount of time. But flight does make more sense via Firestorm and Hellscream's explanations/reasons.

Infinite energy would also have to be literally if even a fraction of it can generate High 3-A and above. "Above all laws of physics" would have to be High 3-A minimum, with extradimensional adding flavor upgrading that to Low 2-C. Also, considered Crucible has enough energy to corrupt a literal infinite number of universes, it also has to be infinite by default.

 

[Abstractions]

If there are an infinite number of universes, and they at least stepped foot in each and everyone one of them, Infinite is the lowest possible interpretation for speed. And It wouldn't even matter if it was flight or teleportation if they still were momentarily present in each in everyone one of the infinite universes within a finite amount of time. But flight does make more sense via Firestorm and Hellscream's explanations/reasons.

That statement doesn't even say they stepped into every single possible universe, and doesn't address the contradiction of the Slayer not being able to achieve the same should we accept them within the same speed range.

Infinite energy would also have to be literally if even a fraction of it can generate High 3-A and above.

It's a good thing it doesn't actually say this, and how batteries relying on Argent Energy have been quantified in non-infinite values.

 

[Darius2036]

First of all, it is very frowned upon to copy/paste arguments from random blogs offsite; especially things like Death Battle Predictions. Especially that they take a lot of things out of context. I'm talking about some rejected, feats for Master Chief such as various aim dodging feats, or withstanding splash effects without taking inverse square law or thermal equilibrium into account.

I'm sorry for that. I didn't want discuss anything from Halo or rejected feats. I referenced the G1DB blog just for context.

But for the DOOM feats, Davoth creating the multiverse is quite blatant, and he uses the same UES of Argent energy and does so casually. Likewise, it over looks Samuel Makyr's feat of shaking the Multiverse, which would still effectively scale to the entire size of the multiverse. I'm not the one who upgraded to Tier 1, so I'm unsure how to answer that and I'd ping more DOOM experts for that.

Wasn't Argent Energy discovered much later after Davoth's imprisonment? It's the product of combining Hell energy and Sentinel energy.

As for the Speed, it did say "Wing through all creation" effectively they entered an infinite number of universes one by one within a finite amount of time. Which is effectively infinite. As for the Immeasurable speed parts, yeah I can see some contention. But still want to hear from the experts.

The way I understand higher dimensional cosmologies like DOOM, you wouldn't need to cross a whole universe worth of distance to get to the next one. Two 4D universes of infinite size could be less than one step removed from each other across a 5D axis, and within that finite gap of 5D space can fit an uncountable infinite number of universes.

Visiting an infinite number of universes doesn't sound like a reliable speed feat in this context. It seems more likely to me this is just referring to the Maykrs expanding their influence across the multiverse.

Why would the Maykrs, an extradimensional highly intelligent super civilization, do something as inefficient as visiting every universe of an infinite multiverse one by one? It would make more sense if they sent groups of Maykrs for each universe.

Another possibility is that the Maykrs could have visited these universes during the process of their creation, instead of visiting every universe after the infinite multiverse was completed.

We know the Maykrs/Seraphs were the first creations and the assistants of Davoth, who we know creates these universes in his workshop one by one. We also know that Davoth's workshop was in Jekkad/Hell, which is shown to have a drastically different flow of time, even being described as a timeless realm that exists outside the boundaries of time, so I don't think we can give a measurable finite timeframe even if the Maykrs were actually able to visit every universe one by one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That statement doesn't even say they stepped into every single possible universe, and doesn't address the contradiction of the Slayer not being able to achieve the same should we accept them within the same speed range.

Winged through all Creation? Sounds quite blatant to me.

It's a good thing it doesn't actually say this, and how batteries relying on Argent Energy have been quantified in non-infinite values.

4-Dimensional Event in (Count Down from 10 Seconds). Boundless Resource and Beyond Traditional Science (Which includes, physics, thermodynamics, chemistry)

 

[Darius2036]

I'm sorry for not including this at the start for at the time I didn't think of it, but why is Davoth scaled to the Void? There's no statement about him being its creator nor is he stated to affect it in any way other than using an undefined portion of it to create the Seraphs.

4-Dimensional Event in (Count Down from 10 Seconds). Boundless Resource and Beyond Traditional Science (Which includes, physics, thermodynamics, chemistry)

Again, there's no reason to assume that it was referring to a 4D event more than it was referring to a "Dimensional event of Category 4"

"Boundless" is because it's an inexhaustible source of energy.

"Beyond traditional science" is because this energy is spiritual in nature and created through supernatural means (at least Hell energy is, which makes up half of Argent energy).

Winged through all Creation? Sounds quite blatant to me.

Which part of the text says "all". Can you show a quote?

 

[Abstractions]

Winged through all Creation? Sounds quite blatant to me.

The direct quote is "winged through creation", not all.

4-Dimensional Event in (Count Down from 10 Seconds)

There is no hyphen in the text, it's labeling it as a Category 4 Dimensional event, not a 4-D category event. Saying that there is different categories to these events and not a direct statement as to the dimensionality of said event.

Boundless Resource

The resource is renewable which makes it functionally infinite and boundless, yes. This is not a statement as to its quality, we know this because it is quantified in the very entry.

Beyond Traditional Science (Which includes, physics, thermodynamics, chemistry)

They clearly say it's delving into the occult and spiritual matters which would be beyond traditional science, yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Which part of the text says "all". Can you show a quote?

"Most favored of all Seraphs was Samur Maykr. It was he who administered worlds, studied divine experiments, and reported progress in all creation. After much time, the Father grew frustrated with his own many divine errors, most vexing of all being Jekkad and its continued slide into discordance. The Father declared he would withdraw from the physical realm to prevent Jekkad's ever increasing power from someday shattering Urdak, and to stop Davoth from absorbing the Father's infinite powers that he so coveted."

As for the rest, Firestorm and Hellscream both elaborated above a lot more.

 

[Darius2036]

"Most favored of all Seraphs was Samur Maykr. It was he who administered worlds, studied divine experiments, and reported progress in all creation. After much time, the Father grew frustrated with his own many divine errors, most vexing of all being Jekkad and its continued slide into discordance. The Father declared he would withdraw from the physical realm to prevent Jekkad's ever increasing power from someday shattering Urdak, and to stop Davoth from absorbing the Father's infinite powers that he so coveted."

As for the rest, Firestorm and Hellscream both elaborated above a lot more.

That is a different statement that has nothing to do with the supposed speed of the Seraphs "winging through creation". The only thing it tells us is that Samur is the one who reported to the Father/Davoth about their progress.

 

[Firestorm808]

A summary if you could, yes.

1. When the void first appeared, [Davoth] alone swept across it.
2. Jekkad/Hell is created. It is the oldest in existence - the first world.
3. Davoth went on to create new realities
   1. "All things were made by my hand."
4. [Davoth] longed to solve the riddle of immortality for his people of Jekkad.
5. Davoth experimented until he created [Urdak] and Vega
   1. In Urdak, Davoth created the Seraphs.
   2. Using his unrivaled power [Davoth] crafted the Maykr race.

 

[Firestorm808]

That is a different statement that has nothing to do with the supposed speed of the Seraphs "winging through creation". The only thing it tells us is that Samur is the one who reported to the Father/Davoth about their progress.

We are given the following statements:

1. "[Seraphs] once winged through creation to do the Father's bidding."
2. "[Samur] (administered worlds, studied divine experiments, and reported progress) in all creation."

This tells me that Samur used his wings to travel through all creation and perform his tasks. He worked on many worlds in all creation and used his wings to travel between them.

 

[Firestorm808]

He seems to blip in and out of existence when moving, yes. But I'm still failing to see how this negates the need for portal tech and teleportation, as he himself has already previously demonstrated?

We see a vague line of where he goes during combat when he does decide to move, but when he disappears and reappears it's always gives us an outline of a portal of some kind.

I don't mean to deceive or anything when I describe it as that, but you must see where I get that impression from the movement.

To reiterate, does the line and movement of Samur meet our site definition of Teleportation.

"The ability to move instantaneously from one location to another without physically occupying the space in between."

I do not think so. His movement was not instantaneous and had a line of his essence of sorts traveling in between the two points.

Can we agree that this movement does not meet our definition of Teleportation?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It literally is the next page after the "Winged through Creation", that after doing so, Samuel made reports to all creation.

And about the "Being outside time and space," there are many interpretations to that statement. Some see it as outside the concept, others see it as just outside the 1st temporal dimenion but still withing the flow of the extra temporal dimension. Which between Jekkad and Urdak, the Doom multiverse is treated like 3 temporal dimensions. Casual travel between more than one temporal dimension is Immeasurable by default based on various notes and DontTalk's statements. Especially if various beings basically perceive spatial dimensions and temporal dimensions as more or less the same thing.

Also, as Firestorm said, Davoth created the multiverse and Jekkad quite casually and even casual emotions warp it all. Not to mention, the Incorperal form being Omnipresent across Jekkad, Urdak, and the Infinite Multiverse as mentioned on his profile. And even that version that is literally Tier 1 via sheer size is said to be weaker than the physical form.

There is no hyphen in the text, it's labeling it as a Category 4 Dimensional event, not a 4-D category event. Saying that there is different categories to these events and not a direct statement as to the dimensionality of said event.

No offense intended, but that sounds like the textbook definition of knit picking. What even was a Category 1 or 2 if that was the case? Not to mention, there was a Category 3 Dimensional even that didn't really seem to effect anything. The lack of a "-" doesn't seem relevant. Not to mention, there was also no comma after 4 to have 4 referring to the the 4th category as opposed to the event being 4 dimensional. Also, if 4 was referring to the category as opposed to the dimensional scale, I don't think Categories 3 and 4 would be the same name. A tool with multiple gear sets normally have them all be different things, not the same. 3 and 4 legit sounds more like the scale of the respective dimensional events. Also "Category" can be a metaphor for the level or severity of something.

 

[Abstractions]

No offense intended, but that sounds like the textbook definition of knit picking.

It's not nitpicking, it's just reading the dialogue as it is presented.

The lack of a "-" doesn't seem relevant.

How is it not relevant if you felt it necessary to sneak in the hyphen when it didn't exist in the language as it was presented in the clip? Are you telling me that it makes more sense to you to read it as a Category "4-Dimensional" event as opposed to a Category 4 "dimensional event"?

I don't think Categories 3 and 4 would be the same name.

I'm not following the logic here, "category" isn't a name it's a sorting mechanism.

Also "Category" can be a metaphor for the level or severity of something.

Sounds like you're able to understand that a numerical value could be indicating the severity of such an event and not the dimensionality of one, in which case you would be agreeing with me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

How is it not relevant if you felt it necessary to sneak in the hyphen when it didn't exist in the language as it was presented in the clip? Are you telling me that it makes more sense to you to read it as a Category "4-Dimensional" event as opposed to a Category 4 "dimensional event"?

There were no Quotation marks around dimensional event or a comma after 4, so neither makes sense by your logic either.

I'm not following the logic here, "category" isn't a name it's a sorting mechanism.

It can be. "Categories" at the bottom of wiki pages are.

Sounds like you're able to understand that a numerical value could be indicating the severity of such an event and not the dimensionality of one, in which case you would be agreeing with me.

In theory, not in execution. We do not know if Category is describing "4" or "4 dimensional" if it means severity. And 4 dimensional can be a scale or severity level of an event.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

There were no Quotation marks around dimensional event or a comma after 4, so neither makes sense by your logic either.

It can be. "Categories" at the bottom of wiki pages are.

In theory, not in execution. We do not know if Category is describing "4" or "4 dimensional" if it means severity. And 4 dimensional can be a scale or severity level of an event.

It's proper grammar for something that's 4-D to be referred to as "4-dimensional" or else it's just not referring to something that's four-dimensional from what the structure suggests.

 

[Abstractions]

There were no Quotation marks around dimensional event or a comma after 4, so neither makes sense by your logic either.

The quotation marks are so you can discern the difference in the reading through text, they may look the same but have entirely different meanings.

 

[Darius2036]

We are given the following statements:

1. "[Seraphs] once winged through creation to do the Father's bidding."
2. "[Samur] (administered worlds, studied divine experiments, and reported progress) in all creation."

This tells me that Samur used his wings to travel through all creation and perform his tasks. He worked on many worlds in all creation and used his wings to travel between them.

The second statement doesn't say anything about Samur actually travelling to these worlds. For all we know, a number of other other Maykrs could be the ones recompiling information about these worlds and Samur be the one administering and reporting it to Davoth.

Also, as Firestorm said, Davoth created the multiverse and Jekkad quite casually and even casual emotions warp it all.

Like I said above, he creates these universes one by one in his workshop.

The only feat that involves Davoth's emotions warping reality is with Jekkad, a realm that shares a unique connection with him that is never seen in any other realm, and this was done over an unknown amount time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Like I said above, he creates these universes one by one in his workshop.

The only feat that involves Davoth's emotions warping reality is with Jekkad, a realm that shares a unique connection with him that is never seen in any other realm, and this was done over an unknown amount time.

Read Firestorms post above, he literally proved that wrong.

Per the Book of the Seraphs - Part I, Davoth casually created entire realities from the void before the Engines of Creation were even built.

The Luminarium aka Engines of Creation was used for one purpose, corporal resurrection. It doesn't create realities. Nothing in the Codex suggests that the Engines were used to do anything else.

And also from Hellscream

Either way the entire blog is based upon a whole lotta nothing, it's just some short researched 20 minute blog, without even properly knowing the lore / arguments..

First of all, like was stated before "the engines of creation" which came forth from Urdak, is not the first thing that was created by davoth. Jekkad, aka Hell was his first creation out of which the entirety of the cosmology is based upon.
There's also the thing that the entire cosmology, is just an extension of Davoth's power, and Jekkad itself literally transformed into hell, due to his emotional state.

 

[Firestorm808]

Like I said above, he creates these universes one by one in his workshop.

It onlys says that "planning" took place there.

Per the game, Davoth's creations are molded by his hands and from the void.

 

[Darius2036]

Read Firestorms post above, he literally proved that wrong.

That part of the Book of Seraphs say that he created other realities before Jekkad. We later find out that this isn't true. Jekkad/Hell is the first realm ever created, which is the whole reason why every other realm is connected with it.

And also from Hellscream

It's not out of the question that the part about "the Engines of being part of Urdak" was just another one of the things that the Seraphs changed in the book. There could be more than one of them (it's never implied that they're unique) as they've been mentioned to be both in Davoth's workshop in Jekkad and below the Luminarium in Urdak.

Also, where is stated that the entire cosmology is based on Jekkad/Hell? We're only told that there's a connection between Jekkad and the rest of the realms, but that's only because Jekkad is the first universe that Davoth created. It can be sealed away and its connections permanently severed without affecting the rest of the cosmology.

Per the codex, Davoth's creations are molded by his hands and from the void.

Per the same codex, the Engines of Creation are how Davoth was able to harness the power of the interdimensional space between dimensions, AKA the Void. They are specifically stated to be used to manipulate the nature of creation. Being able to separate/introduce life force is just another use it has, which might I add is also stated to utilize a different type of energy that is considered to be more exotic and powerful than any that Hell has access to (like Hell/Argent Energy).

 

[Hellscream]

"previously accepted theoretical limits" is the direct line, as quoted here:

"Argent Energy is produced by neutron activation of Argent plasma, a new and powerful substance that was discovered on Mars. This produces an exothermic reaction where recorded temperatures within the plasma have exceeded previously accepted theoretical limits." - Decoded Entry 002

It appears to be discussing the temperature of the plasma itself, which as a state of matter has a temperature range and not the absolute hottest something can get.

It is also quantified as a resource in the very same entry:

"When the UAC unveiled an Argent Energy powered, hand sized 24-volt battery with over 12,000 megawatt-hours, the future of energy supply within the Solar System was set. One battery array could power an entire city block for several months."

If the resource was completely infinite, it wouldn't run out at all here.

My guy, please tell me why they would be specifically talking about the theoretical limits of temperature, in an alien substance, that they just discovered?...
Why would they even know the theoretical limits when they don't even understand what it is??
It literally says the temperatures WITHIN the plasma go beyond the theoretical limits of temperature.

The quantity of energy that they can utilize from it is not relevant, i referred to that prior.
Simply because they can't utilize the energy to it's full potential does not mean that their energy usage, with their limited amount of knowledge is it's full potential.

We do however know, that the energy is used to power Hell, and Urdak which are multiversal higher dimensional constructs, and powers the crucible, which can corrupt ALL realms in existence, but lets nitpick and use the feats of humans, that aren't even a type 1 civilization in the usage of energy.
It's also Argent energy that empowers the Slayer, and the praetor suit.

Crucible used to absorb the argent energy



Crucible stated to be capable of corrupting all realms



Also there's so many coincidences happening around the energy, like being called extradimensional, coincidentally it goes beyond our physics, is stated to be a boundless power, and is proven to be so by how Hell / Urdak utilizes it and with how it powers the crucible.
the category 4 dimensional event is also a crazy coincidence ngl.

 

[Hellscream]

That part of the Book of Seraphs say that he created other realities before Jekkad. We later find out that this isn't true. Jekkad/Hell is the first realm ever created, which is the whole reason why every other realm is connected with it.


It's not out of the question that the part about "the Engines of being part of Urdak" was just another one of the things that the Seraphs changed in the book. There could be more than one of them (it's never implied that they're unique) as they've been mentioned to be both in Davoth's workshop in Jekkad and below the Luminarium in Urdak.

Also, where is stated that the entire cosmology is based on Jekkad/Hell? We're only told that there's a connection between Jekkad and the rest of the realms, but that's only because Jekkad is the first universe that Davoth created. It can be sealed away and its connections permanently severed without affecting the rest of the cosmology.


Per the same codex, the Engines of Creation are how Davoth was able to harness the power of the interdimensional space between dimensions, AKA the Void. They are specifically stated to be used to manipulate the nature of creation. Being able to separate/introduce life force is just another use it has, which might I add is also stated to utilize a different type of energy that is considered to be more exotic and powerful than any that Hell has access to (like Hell/Argent Energy).

Ok so, you agree that Jekkad was the first realm?
So we can basically pack this up right since Jekkad is what the cosmology and tiering on VSBW is based upon

I'll just ignore the possibility of there being multiple engines of creation, since those are just baseless false assumptions.

Whether the cosmology is based on jekkad or not is irrelevant, the scaling itself on VSBW is purely from Jekkad, the countless dimensions are not even being considered.

So.. did the engines of creation exist before davoth or like how did he create them?
Because Davoth was the first being in the void..
How'd he create something in the void if he needs the engines of creation?

Book of the Seraphs - Part I​

Translation from "Eri oa Hiim" (The Lamentations of the Seraphs)

It is written by the Seraphs that when the void first appeared, the Father alone swept across it. New realities bloomed where he lingered, and when he stopped to rest, Urdak sprung forth from him. Here, the Father experimented until he created Jekkad, a realm superior to Urdak. The Father gifted Jekkad's denizens with burning ambition and he suppressed restraint, so that indecisiveness could not curb their efforts.

Book of the Seraphs - Part I​

Translation from "Eri oa Hiim" (The Lamentations of the Seraphs)

Whispered into existence in the first moment Urdak bloomed around the Father, the Luminarium is the first place of all places. It is the holiest of all grounds.

Book of the Seraphs - Part II​

Translation from "Eri oa Hiim" (The Lamentations of the Seraphs)

The very first creations molded from the void in Urdak. Seraphs are bound to the Father's will. The angelic creatures helped build the Father's works, assisted his research, and once winged through creation to do the Father's bidding. After the Battle of Isonkast, the Father stripped them of their wings.

In atonement, the Seraphs built the Luminarium for the Father on the oldest sliver of Urdak, and took cool pride in building their marvels, including machines that could contain the terrible energies of the very essence of life. In order to prevent the Seraphs from seeking power, the Father ordered that they serve any who reach the Luminarium. Their laws and codes would serve all who arrive equally, and favor none.

Pack it up my guy, this directly debunks the need of the Luminarium, as Urdak including the Luminarium, which is where the engines of creation reside were created by Davoth's hand. he does not need anything for his creational feats, which is directly proven by this. I've also given you proof, that the Luminarium was not even created by Davoth, it was created by the Seraphs.