Immeasurable Speed for Dragon Ball Super: Reaction Speed Proposal

[Naeem0304]

Dragon Ball Super (Anime) Goku's Notes/Explanations details this:

1. Note: Due to the vast amount of inconsistencies between various feats, statements, and information given about Time-Skip, such as the mechanics explained by Vados and Whis, (that it is merely limited Time Travel that stores time) being directly contradicted on multiple occasions, including feats like freezing Goku in time (twice), Hit's own words, and Word of God, or what even qualifies as Time-Skip, as Tides of Time (Hit's Dimension-Shift) was initially stated not to be, but this was contradicted later in the Tournament of Power, or regarding how Time-Skip has a reliant Dimension connected to it for Time Storage contradicts Hit's testimony regarding how he never made Time-Skip do more than its initial basic function before, (and the basic mechanics, as he needs to skip time first to then store it, contradicting even that description), etc. has created a patchwork of incoherence. Due to this, and how the Time Freezing and Travelling related parts of the ability must both be simultaneously true for the plot of the Dragon Ball Super Anime to make sense (as Vados/Whis explanation is the sole reason he has his greater Time Dimension abilities thoughout the Assassination Arc and the Tournament of Power, and he needs the abilities to also specifically be Time Stop for certain major plot sequences, like Time Cage, {a Time Stop ability which is explicitly described as "Time-Skip in Reverse"} to affect Jiren), as well as the fact they are used interchangeably at several points, our community has decided to index the ability as both Time Travel and Time Stop, and to simply reconcile the best we can by ignoring these glaring contradictions to get the most accurate listing of Hit's ability. As such, Goku's ability to get around these abilities will be indexed as they would be if this inconsistency did not exist. This includes immeasurable speed, (as it is through raw speed that Goku uses to meet Hit in his limited travel through time), which we accept as an Outlier. This is due to multiple reasons, such as how it contradicts elements in the series like travel time between points (as combat speed and travel speed are often directly connected in Dragon Ball) or Goku's reliance on Instant Transmission, (as if he was immeasurable, he could simply run to locations), or how it contradicts the most blatant setpiece of all, the Tournament of Power (which occurs across 48 minutes. If everyone was fighting at immeasurable speeds, or even individual characters, this could not be possible).

Key words are "limited travel". Why is this relevant?

Reaction Speed​

Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed.

For example, let's say that character A shoots at character B with a gun and character B dodges. That is reaction speed. Keep in mind, sometimes a person aim dodges and it is not as good of a feat.

As another example, let's say that character A uses a minigun on character B, but the minigun takes a second or two to charge up and Character B sees this. If Character B dodges it is considered aim dodging since he/she knew that the attack was going to happen.

Reaction speed is reacting to an attack that you don't know is going to happen, or at a very close range. The reaction speed of a character also tends to be higher than their movement speed.

Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe, which a character has been shown capable of.

The scene depicting Goku meeting Hit through raw speed in the Time Skip sequence was only of him raising his arm to strike Hit in the face. This qualifies as a short movement upon reaction. Furthermore, "or at a very close range" is more evidence for this being a Reaction Speed feat, as Goku only managed this action from being several meters from Hit.
In terms of "defined timeframe", it would be the 0.5 seconds that Hit could skip time in.

Credits to @SwordLegendz01 - It was stated in Episode 40 that Hit's improved Time Skip had surpassed Goku's earlier outpacing speed. Speed meeting against a time attack:

Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)

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This includes immeasurable speed, (as it is through raw speed that Goku uses to meet Hit in his limited travel through time), which we accept as an Outlier. This is due to multiple reasons, such as how it contradicts elements in the series like travel time between points (as combat speed and travel speed are often directly connected in Dragon Ball)

1. Since this is Reaction Speed, this isn't connected to combat and travel speed. We have multiple instances of slower characters still being able to keep up with fights:
a. Team Universe 7 being able to visually keep up with UI Goku and Jiren's fights (Shin noted how fast MUI Goku was, and Piccolo was able to "see" UI Goku grazing Jiren in Episode 110)
b. Base Goku being able to keep note of Super Saiyan 1/God Vegeta's fight against Base/Wrathful Broly.
c. Z fighters like Vegeta can watch the fight between Super Saiyan God Goku and Beerus.
d. Paragus, a Saiyan with a battle power of 4200, was able to make sense of the fight against Vegeta and Broly.
The list goes on here.
Lastly,

When it comes to scaling such speed to other attacks or characters a high amount of scrutiny is necessary. Often these speeds don't scale to any regular attack or other characters.

This wouldn't fully scale to Goku's normal attacks.

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Goku's reliance on Instant Transmission, (as if he was immeasurable, he could simply run to locations)

1. Since it's Immeasurable Speed through Reaction Speed, this is easily discounted by the fact that it only inhibits short movement upon reaction, it's higher than their movement speed, and Instant Transmission is more practical since he can get from point A to point B without needing direction. Goku could only achieve Immeasurable Speed within a fraction of a second before it ceased; it's locked behind extremely limited Reaction Speed movement.

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or how it contradicts the most blatant setpiece of all, the Tournament of Power (which occurs across 48 minutes. If everyone was fighting at immeasurable speeds, or even individual characters, this could not be possible).

1. Given how the Immeasurable Speed Reaction is locked behind extremely limited movement within a fraction of a second, this wouldn't at all contradict the Tournament of Power.

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A series of movements in similar timeframes makes this combat speed, so this term should only be applied for a single, quick movement.

This would not qualify for Combat Speed with the explanation above; it only applies to a single, quick movement.

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My final proposal is that Immeasurable Speed for Dragon Ball Super should be locked under Limited Reaction Speed.
Option 1: Immeasurable Speed through Reaction Speed
Agree:
Disagree:
Option 2: Infinite Speed through Reaction Speed
Agree:
Disagree:
Option 3: Outlier/Resistance to Time Manipulation/Analytical Prediction
Agree:
Disagree:

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree, i'm very crazy about that.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Not this again, I will see you guys tomorrow with 6 pages done.

 

[Da3ggman]

Can't wait to see this turn into a 9 page debate Hell in an hour

Uhhhh if it's limited to just reaction speed, then ig it should be fine, since that eliminates a lot of the contradictions and problems I have with immeasurable DB. But I'm gonna remain neutral just until some more arguments are presented.

 

[Naeem0304]

Not this again, I will see you guys tomorrow with 6 pages done.

Can't wait to see this turn into a 9 page debate Hell in an hour

Uhhhh if it's limited to just reaction speed, then ig it should be fine, since that eliminates a lot of the contradictions and problems I have with immeasurable DB. But I'm gonna remain neutral just until some more arguments are presented.

I agree with this A LOT. Standard Immeasurable Speed for DBS is 100% a no-go, but I think it being limited to Reaction Speed is somewhat fair.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'd just be Combat Speed by the Future Arc onwards

 

[Damage3245]

If Goku has "immeasurable reaction speed", then anybody with finite speed taking him by surprise or blitzing him would be a contradiction to this, no?

 

[Johner2133451]

If Goku has "immeasurable reaction speed", then anybody with finite speed taking him by surprise or blitzing him would be a contradiction to this, no?

Would upscale ig

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

looks ok, I don't think this will contradict the TOP

 

[Naeem0304]

If Goku has "immeasurable reaction speed", then anybody with finite speed taking him by surprise or blitzing him would be a contradiction to this, no?

First of all, anyone above Goku would upscale to his reactions (and I gave an example of finite-speed characters like Paragus, who has a power level of 4200, keeping up with Vegeta vs Broly, and even God Goku/Blue Goku vs Broly), and the reaction speed itself is locked behind a specific timeframe and distance component:

Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed.

Reaction speed has both a distance and a timeframe component

Goku has only shown the ability to move "once" against a time-skipping attack in 0.5 seconds, so anything moving beyond that would impede him (hence how Hit was able to lock Goku into a freeze-like position after the SSBKK10 Kamehameha).
So if anyone has the ability to bypass the specific distance and timeframe component to Goku's reaction speed, then he can 100% get caught off guard by someone weaker/slower.

 

[Damage3245]

Why exactly would a person's reaction speed be immeasurable and nothing else? How is someone with immeasurable speed only able to take a single action during a 0.5 second time-skip? Wouldn't he be able to take effectively unlimited actions? The explanation page on Immeasurable speed says:

Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.

Outside of this scene from Hit, when does Goku ever do anything that suggests his reactions are this fast? If this is a purely isolated scene and nothing else he does is remotely on this level, then it seems pretty clearly to still be an Outlier.

The speed page also says this for scaling:

Generally, to scale such speed feats to characters or other attacks the verse needs to provide solid evidence for it and consistently portray the character/attack and those that scale as moving that fast.

 

[Naeem0304]

Why exactly would a person's reaction speed be immeasurable and nothing else? How is someone with immeasurable speed only able to take a single action during a 0.5 second time-skip? Wouldn't he be able to take effectively unlimited actions? The explanation page on Immeasurable speed says:

Because that explanation of Immeasurable Speed explains what it can do at its full potency, while it's generally just taking away S = D/T. If you could move even 0.2 seconds into the past or future through sheer speed, that's immeasurable because it's unbound by linear time (you don't need to move a trillion years into the past to qualify, because if you do, then we'd need to reconsider a bunch of Immeasurable Speed justifications). That's also why Immeasurable Speed has layers to it; some are faster with Immeasurable Speed than others.

Outside of this scene from Hit, when does Goku ever do anything that suggests his reactions are this fast? If this is a purely isolated scene and nothing else he does is remotely on this level, then it seems pretty clearly to still be an Outlier.

The problem is, an outlier is defined by an inconsistency; a purely isolated scene doesn't inhibit that stance unless there are multiple contradictions in the series for corroboration (that's also why I explained and corrected the contradictions pertaining Goku's Immeasurable Speed being an Outlier to begin with.)

The speed page also says this for scaling:

Generally, to scale such speed feats to characters or other attacks the verse needs to provide solid evidence for it and consistently portray the character/attack and those that scale as moving that fast.

Solid evidence is provided, and that speed was consistently shown throughout the episode, with another one (where Goku got the ki disorder) having King Kai state that he "forced himself into the future". It's counterintuitive to ask for other arcs to feel the need to "explain" it to obtain the rating; the evidence is all here, and it doesn't add faults to later portions of the series.

 

[TheNothing84]

Well...
Look very good, but im neutral

 

[Hayato5652]

I am neutral because this issue creates contradictions, and I must point it out.

This has been mentioned in Son Goku profile and is considered an outlier.
I'll wait for the others opinions.

 

[Hellformer]

Option 1 seems fine to me

 

[Chariot190]

Uh, are we ignoring how characters can punch Goku in the fast quicker than he can react?
This is just hiding the outlier, everyone worth a damn would end up scaling to this in combat and burst movement after U6, some by absolutely stupid degrees like Jiren, UI, or hell even Dyspo.

Which then in turn cycles back around to how there's ten fucktrillion anti-feats and contradictions after this fight, so, ya know.

 

[Damage3245]

Uh, are we ignoring how characters can punch Goku in the fast quicker than he can react?
This is just hiding the outlier, everyone worth a damn would end up scaling to this in combat and burst movement after U6, some by absolutely stupid degrees like Jiren, or hell even Dyspo.

Which then in turn cycles back around to how there's ten fucktrillion anti-feats and contradictions after this fight, so, ya know.

Indeed.

Unless there is a greater demonstration of consistency for this, my vote is for it to remain an Outlier / not be used.

 

[Johner2133451]

When Goku stating that Granola can move faster than instant, wouldn't that kinda debunk the immeasurable speed? Since Goku thinks faster than instant is a big feat to do unless anime changes things

 

[Naeem0304]

Uh, are we ignoring how characters can punch Goku in the fast quicker than he can react?
This is just hiding the outlier, everyone worth a damn would end up scaling to this in combat and burst movement after U6, some by absolutely stupid degrees like Jiren, or hell even Dyspo.

Which then in turn cycles back around to how there's ten fucktrillion anti-feats and contradictions after this fight, so, ya know.

I'd like to ask you where in the post this was being ignored?

1. Since this is Reaction Speed, this isn't connected to combat and travel speed. We have multiple instances of slower characters still being able to keep up with fights:
a. Team Universe 7 being able to visually keep up with UI Goku and Jiren's fights (Shin noted how fast MUI Goku was, and Piccolo was able to "see" UI Goku grazing Jiren in Episode 110)
b. Base Goku being able to keep note of Super Saiyan 1/God Vegeta's fight against Base/Wrathful Broly.
c. Z fighters like Vegeta can watch the fight between Super Saiyan God Goku and Beerus.
d. Paragus, a Saiyan with a battle power of 4200, was able to make sense of the fight against Vegeta and Broly.
The list goes on here.

When it comes to scaling such speed to other attacks or characters a high amount of scrutiny is necessary. Often these speeds don't scale to any regular attack or other characters.

This is the same series, mind you, where Paragus can visualize a fight between Blue Goku and Broly, who are deep into MFTL+, while a power level of 4200 (for Paragus) would grant FTL at best.

 

[KLOL506]

Does bro not realize that you can't restrict speeds of infinite and above to solely reactions without it scaling to everything else in tandem unless you have legitimately good f-u-c-k-i-n-g in-verse reasons for it? Also, this is not how Immeasurable speed works - YOU NEED TO BE PHYSICALLY MOVING BEYOND THE LINEAR CONFINES OF TIME SUCH THAT YOU CAN LITERALLY TRAVEL ACROSS IT AS IF IT WERE A PHYSICAL PLANE.

Youngblood, I think it's time for you to kindly let off the gas pedal on these "upgrade threads" that you keep making.

 

[Hayato5652]

When Goku stating that Granola can move faster than instant, wouldn't that kinda debunk the immeasurable speed? Since Goku thinks faster than instant is a big feat to do unless anime changes things

I have a better question, what does the anime have to do with the manga?

 

[Chariot190]

Personally I just think it's ******, ToP's existence invalidates this, you can't even pretend otherwise.
UI Goku blitzes dudes like Toppo from like 200m away, Dyspo moves like a blur, Jiren can punch Goku so fast he doesn't even know what happened, there's so much shit that would scale it to combat and burst speeds that trying to go "just reactions btw" is borderline lying.
But as said, we now got to compare if their combat and burst speeds can be reasonably and fairly placed at immeasurable, do they have anti-feats? Do those anti-feats outweigh that one feat in consistency or intent? What about contradictions?
The answer to that would be a massive yes on all fronts.
It'd be exponentially worse in manga canon too, there's some hard MFTL+ capping in there post U6 fight, ya'll want infinite or imm Goku? You're gonna need to wait for them to throw his ass another feat like that but this time not spend every episode afterward proving it wrong.

I'd like to ask you where in the post this was being ignored?

About the whole entire post. That's just yap dude, excuses, inconsistencies, and ignores the dozens and dozens of times that doesn't apply and the exact opposite is shown.

This is the same series, mind you, where Paragus can visualize a fight between Blue Goku and Broly, who are deep into MFTL+, while a power level of 4200 (for Paragus) would grant FTL at best.

Ignoring the fact to him they look like blurs, teleporting, and are in multiple places at the same time.
Kinda like how every high speed fight is shown from the outside, a fact that was shown numerous times as far back as early DB, but some notable examples would be Gohan not being able to see Saibamen and Yamcha fight, or nobody being able to actually see Jiren and Goku fight, just afterimages, hell Goku throwing innumerable punches to them looked like he was standing still and Jiren doing the same back looked like him literally looking at Goku funny.

This isn't an argument, if we took that at face value, Paragus would either flatout scale, or it's an outlier and using an outlier to justify the outlier.... Nah dude.

Like I'm not doing this with you, worst part is, none of that justifies using the feat because Goku STILL gets omegablitzed by characters.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

When Goku stating that Granola can move faster than instant, wouldn't that kinda debunk the immeasurable speed? Since Goku thinks faster than instant is a big feat to do unless anime changes things

That's the manga, we treat it as an entirely different continuity. Well, even Toei does.

 

[MrTayman616]

That's the manga, we treat it as an entire different continuity

Goku will say "too slow" in anime fr

 

[Reiner04]

Gotta disagree due to chariot reasons.

 

[Naeem0304]

Does bro not realize that you can't restrict speeds of infinite and above to solely reactions without it scaling to everything else in tandem unless you have legitimately good f-u-c-k-i-n-g in-verse reasons for it? Also, this is not how Immeasurable speed works - YOU NEED TO BE PHYSICALLY MOVING BEYOND THE LINEAR CONFINES OF TIME SUCH THAT YOU CAN LITERALLY TRAVEL ACROSS IT AS IF IT WERE A PHYSICAL PLANE.

1. I never denied it scaling to everything else, which is why I answered to the previously established outliers for Immeasurable Speed Goku.
2. Okay, makes perfect sense; not only is the consensus that the feat IS Immeasurable, but the main page for DBS Goku says as much, yet it isn't? If you can physically move into the future, that 100% qualifies.

Youngblood, I think it's time for you to kindly let off the gas pedal on these "upgrade threads" that you keep making.

1. It's 100% sensible to throw shade at every other thread I made because you disagreed with a couple. D-a-m-n.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Disagree FRA

 

[Da3ggman]

Yeah, Chariot kinda took this thread out back and shot it. Disagree FRA.

 

[Naeem0304]

Personally I just think it's ******, ToP's existence invalidates this, you can't even pretend otherwise.
UI Goku blitzes dudes like Toppo from like 200m away, Dyspo moves like a blur, Jiren can punch Goku so fast he doesn't even know what happened, there's so much shit that would scale it to combat and burst speeds that trying to go "just reactions btw" is borderline lying.
But as said, we now got to compare if their combat and burst speeds can be reasonably and fairly placed at immeasurable, do they have anti-feats? Do those anti-feats outweigh that one feat in consistency or intent? What about contradictions?
The answer to that would be a massive yes on all fronts.
It'd be exponentially worse in manga canon too, there's some hard MFTL+ capping in there post U6 fight, ya'll want infinite or imm Goku? You're gonna need to wait for them to throw his ass another feat like that but this time not spend every episode afterward proving it wrong.

About the whole entire post. That's just yap dude, excuses, inconsistencies, and ignores the dozens and dozens of times that doesn't apply and the exact opposite is shown.

Ignoring the fact to him they look like blurs, teleporting, and are in multiple places at the same time.
Kinda like how every high speed fight is shown from the outside, a fact that was shown numerous times as far back as early DB, but some notable examples would be Gohan not being able to see Saibamen and Yamcha fight, or nobody being able to actually see Jiren and Goku fight, just afterimages, hell Goku throwing innumerable punches to them looked like he was standing still and Jiren doing the same back looked like him literally looking at Goku funny.

This isn't an argument, if we took that at face value, Paragus would either flatout scale, or it's an outlier and using an outlier to justify the outlier.... Nah dude.

Like I'm not doing this with you, worst part is, none of that justifies using the feat because Goku STILL gets omegablitzed by characters.

I agree with these points @Chariot190

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I agree with these points @Chariot190

Should I close the thread then?

 

[MrTayman616]

Solid evidence is provided, and that speed was consistently shown throughout the episode, with another one (where Goku got the ki disorder) having King Kai state that he "forced himself into the future". It's counterintuitive to ask for other arcs to feel the need to "explain" it to obtain the rating; the evidence is all here, and it doesn't add faults to later portions of the series.

Wasn't it a mistranslation? He only talks about prediction but not physical movement if iirc.

 

[Naeem0304]

Wasn't it a mistranslation? He only talks about prediction but not physical movement if iirc.

You're probably right; I didn't know there was a mistranslation thread for it.

 

[Naeem0304]

Should I close the thread then?

Yessir