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One Piece: Enel Gets His Well Deserved Megaboom

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KingTempest

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This is a direct continuation to this thread. Mainly in the application of the calculation at hand. 22 Exatons.
Now that Enel scales to the value, this thread is going to be the primary discussion as to how he scales with his showcase in his prior arc.

Option 1: Restrict His Devil Fruit Scaling to Anyone in Skypiea​

Enel is stated to have a powerful devil fruit, even among logias. One of the invincible powers.
As it stands, there are 13 Logia fruits. 6 of them scale to God tier values (Sakazuki, Borsalino, Kuzan, Teach, Sabo, and Aramaki), 1 has no profile yet but has potential scaling (Karasu). Weaker users such as Caesar Clown, Smoker, Crocodile, and Monet are far above the likes of the pre timeskip strawhats who "combatted" (badly lost to) Enel.
With this in mind, the Gura Gura no Mi is noted to be as powerful as the logias. One of the more powerful logias should scale in the same ballpark as one, and not a million times weaker.
It is consistent for him to be a character with an upper echelon of strength. Inferior characters have no reason to scale to him.

Option 2: Moon Key​

We can isolate his scaling on the moon via a moon key. He has uniquely more powerful feats there anyways.

Option 3: Up to High 6-A​

Throughout Skypiea until Luffy, Enel wasn't trying at all.
Kamikiri. Random Shandian. Raki. Nola. Gan Fall. Robin. Zoro. Wyper.
Absolutely no issues when it came to defeating these characters. The only one who could stand in his power was Luffy, who was rubber.
Enel had the power to even bring down sky islands. He could do that with Skypiea easily, stated by everybody who has seen his power or knows his power. The only reason why he didn't, shown again, was because he wanted the golden bell.

Conclusion​

Either mark everyone's feats against Enel as outliers, give him a new key, or give him an "Up to High 6-A" rating.
At the end of the day, Enel is a force of nature.

Option A:
Option B: MonkeyOfLife, Apollonir.Scale, Fireld, Popbum, FinePoint, Dalesean027 (Or C)
Option C: Kachon123, Eminiteable, Saqphire, Eseseso, XDragnoir, Ryuga21, Raiden38, Dalesean027 (Or B)
Agrees to Using Calc, Option Unknown:
Disagree To All: Damage3245, Duedate8898
 
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Option 3 makes sense to me, how do you plan to implement Luffy's statement about there being many people on the blue sea stronger than Enel into the scaling?
 
how do you plan to implement Luffy's statement about there being many people on the blue sea stronger than Enel into the scaling?
That way too iffy to use to scaling, not only Luffy never witness his best feat, but at that time he was still unaware of the existence of Top Tiers like Emperors and Admirals and how strong they are compare to him.
 
That way too iffy to use to scaling, not only Luffy never witness his best feat, but at that time he was still unaware of the existence of Top Tiers like Emperors and Admirals and how strong they are compare to him.
He definitely knew of Shanks and Mihawk, the latter he regarded as too strong of an opponent to fight before he had even witnessed any of Mihawk's power (during marineford)

He also knew of Ace who could fight the admirals and has the same bounty as the hypothetical one Oda gave Enel, but it may be harder to prove that Luffy was referring to Ace in his statement.
 
If we choose Option 3, how will it affect the scaling chain?

Will the tier chaining still be removed or kept?
 
Luffy didn't have any Observation Haki yet and Mihawk never used his full strength against Zoro.
And yet he clearly knew somehow, likely attributed to his senses/instincts listed on his profile. As I said he knew Mihawk was too powerful for him to fight despite never witnessing his full strength before.

But I'll drop this line of scaling for now as the thread should first solely focus on choosing how to scale this to Enel and I don't want to derail that.
 
If we choose Option 3, how will it affect the scaling chain?

Will the tier chaining still be removed or kept?
Akainu would scale with due to his Magma fruit's statement of having the highest offensive power among the devil fruits.

Gura fruit users (WB and BB) would scale for the reasons listed in the OP under option 1.
 
The only one that makes sense to me is Option 2

We see Luffy redirect the force of Enel's lightning bolt while powered up by Deathpiea/Thunderclouds via using Ark Maxim (Which enables him to input way more lightning, creating both bigger and more powerful lightning bolts than his base lightning abilities)
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Without the usage of thunderclouds, his lightning ability are limited/less in terms of size and amount of lightning he can use at a time. It's only with thunderclouds that he can use however amount of lightning he can put in it until it blows up
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So it doesn't make as much sense for the other options especially when the characters are surviving the force of his attacks many times, both with and without the usage of Thunderclouds

So for me I'm in favor of a moon key, it's a whole different "story arc" and everything so I personally think it's fine, especially when something similar happened to Crocodile as well
 
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Like I mentioned in the previous thread, there's nothing that proves that Enel got immensely stronger after Skypiea (and time passing doesn't indicate a strength increase, this isn't Fairy Tail yall) after reaching the moon so Option 2 is out. Option 1 makes sense somewhat but it can co-exist with the others.

I also mentioned in that thread how base Luffy, despite being made out of rubber that allowed him to be able to touch Enel, still drew blood on his Amaru form. The Amaru form should scale to his base durability at bare minimum since it's a superior version of his base form anyway so this would not only mean that Luffy didn't just defeat him because of rubber hax, he also bypassed his durability to some extent that the bomb never could do so therefore Luffy should, crazy enough, scale to that feat.

This is why option 3 makes sense here for everyone except Luffy because Enel also had no reason to hold back against him due to the Bell and this wouldn't be in-consistent with Option 1 because Logias, despite being the upper echelon of Devil Fruits, still have their strength depending on their user; I mean we're not gonna say Enel is stronger than Big Mom and Whitebeard cuz he has a Logia and they don't, that's stupid for a variety of reasons that honestly shouldn't need to be mentioned because they're obvious from reading the manga
 
Like I mentioned in the previous thread, there's nothing that proves that Enel got immensely stronger after Skypiea (and time passing doesn't indicate a strength increase, this isn't Fairy Tail yall)
Crocodile exist, Enel having haki awakend exists, devil fruits getting stronger exists. In verse when facing danger, you get way stronger which is what literally happened to Enel

Enel in skypiea never showcased this amount of destruction or size with his devil fruit in base
0458-001.png
0461-001.png
0463-001.png

These panels published during thriller bark, way later after skypiea arc, definitely makes sense for him to get stronger
 
Crocodile exist, Enel having haki awakend exists, devil fruits getting stronger exists.
All of that comes from training which we cannot prove that he did within the timeframe of him being in Skypiea to him being in the moon
In verse when facing danger, you get way stronger which is what literally happened to Enel
This is just a misinterpretation of Zoro's statement. Zoro says this because of the experience that they all gained from going from island to island, not that they get a strength amp from cheating death each time, they are two separate ideas ("We get stronger from island to island AND he has cheated death each time", not "He has cheated death each time and gotten stronger from each cheat of death").

On top of that, Luffy wasn't even trying to kill Enel so this statement wouldn't even apply to him AND you'd have to prove that the supposed death cheat amped Enel to Multi-Continental Level from Island Level with extraordinary evidence
Enel in skypiea never showcased this amount of destruction or size with his devil fruit in base
0458-001.png
0461-001.png
0463-001.png
AP isn't DC brother and that lightning is arguably not even as wide as the Raigou that Luffy also scales to so
These panels published during thriller bark, way later after skypiea arc, definitely makes sense for him to get stronger
Is there anything that proves the cover stories are in-tandem with the main story?

Regardless it wouldn't matter as Thriller Bark only takes place less than a month after Skypiea (March 9th vs March 25th), at which point Enel would've gotten exponentially stronger from Island Level to Multi-Continental Level. This is an extraordinary claim that would thus require extraordinary evidence due to the difference between 6-C and High 6-A being extraordinarily massive that a month's training is simply unfathomable. So either A; he trained (which you'd have to prove) or B; he was always this strong from the start
 
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Can I ask why we assume that Enel's Lightning attacks scale to his physical ability?
Well not only did he tank his own lightning blasts in the cover stories (thus proving his durability scales to it at the very least), he literally is lightning as how Logias function + Nami says it after the air is expanded in skypiea
 
Well not only did he tank his own lightning blasts in the cover stories (thus proving his durability scales to it at the very least), he literally is lightning as how Logias function + Nami says it after the air is expanded in skypiea
The issue is that due to his Logia properties being that of lightning, he is naturally resistant to it. When did Logia Devil Fruits start to grant Durability correlated with their element? From what I know, they only grant "invulnerability".

So yeah, I don't see the argument for "lightning AP = Physical durability" here.
 
The issue is that due to his Logia properties being that of lightning, he is naturally resistant to it. When did Logia Devil Fruits start to grant Durability correlated with their element? From what I know, they only grant "invulnerability".

So yeah, I don't see the argument for "lightning AP = Physical durability" here.
???
thats not even whats being argued
i think we're going off topic here
 
Leaning in favor of option 3, though obviously the bigger subject is how this affects the scaling of everyone else.
 
Crocodile exist, Enel having haki awakend exists, devil fruits getting stronger exists. In verse when facing danger, you get way stronger which is what literally happened to Enel

Enel in skypiea never showcased this amount of destruction or size with his devil fruit in base
0458-001.png
0461-001.png
0463-001.png

These panels published during thriller bark, way later after skypiea arc, definitely makes sense for him to get stronger
That crater wasn’t done by Enel btw
 
I prefer option 3, the fact that Luffy can deflect his lightning is due to his rubber body, which is obviously not like real rubber. Regardless of the AP of the lightning, Luffy's body will always come out completely unaffected, as if the power itself was nullified. Oda simply exaggerated this concept and allows Luffy to even touch lightning with his hand or foot as if it were something tangible.
 
All of that comes from training which we cannot prove that he did within the timeframe of him being in Skypiea to him being in the moon
Him using his fruit more than he ever has on skypiea, using it to it's outmost usage, is him getting his devil fruit trained. him using his devil fruit to fly all the way to the moon is him getting his devil fruit trained

Every time you use your devil fruit, it's gets more potent and refined then evolves. (this is the exact word for the Japanese text; 鍛える. Which is repeated usage in training)
This is just a misinterpretation of Zoro's statement. Zoro says this because of the experience that they all gained from going from island to island, not that they get a strength amp from cheating death each time, they are two separate ideas ("We get stronger from island to island AND he has cheated death each time", not "He has cheated death each time and gotten stronger from each cheat of death").
If you read the manga or had any information at all about the events you would know the exact reason why and the meaning to what Zoro said...

0348-005.png
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First Luffy is literally shown and stated to become stronger and faster than when he was at Water 7
0383-011.png
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Then literally right after that page, Nami gets worried, and Zoro then reassures her by saying that they've all gotten stronger with every island they've passed
0383-015.png

This is nothing about experience at all, and is 100% about fighting power. This also confirms it as well (Cheating death has actually nothing to do with it, that was about usopp being able to cheat death... Getting stronger part is via determination)

And that all happened from just a few hours...
AP isn't DC brother and that lightning is arguably not even as wide as the Raigou that Luffy also scales to so
... Via using the same technique, it was way smaller
0279-014.png
0458-001.png

Raigo has nothing to with enel's base and isn't comparable
Regardless it wouldn't matter as Thriller Bark only takes place less than a month after Skypiea (March 9th vs March 25th), at which point Enel would've gotten exponentially stronger from Island Level to Multi-Continental Level. This is an extraordinary claim that would thus require extraordinary evidence due to the difference between 6-C and High 6-A being extraordinarily massive that a month's training is simply unfathomable. So either A; he trained (which you'd have to prove) or B; he was always this strong from the start
The evidence is above and with everything thing else I've mentioned... It's C; Getting much stronger via using/training his fruit more than he has ever been shown using it with also a month long timeframe between

B is also simply impossible because of how devil fruits work
 
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Count me for option B as well for the Kaminari
And yet he clearly knew somehow, likely attributed to his senses/instincts listed on his profile. As I said he knew Mihawk was too powerful for him to fight despite never witnessing his full strength before.
Rather consistent with a younger Luffy in the recent Kuma's flashback, a minor addition for another time
 
Him using his fruit more than he ever has on skypiea, using it to it's outmost usage, is him getting his devil fruit trained. him using his devil fruit to fly all the way to the moon is him getting his devil fruit trained

Every time you use your devil fruit, it's gets more potent and refined then evolves. (this is the exact word for the Japanese text; 鍛える. Which is repeated usage in training)
Another misinterpretation. First off, these panels do not prove that he has used his fruit more than he ever had before, big moves do not inherently prove this and second, the statement saying that "the more you train your fruit, the more powerful it gets" does not apply here because this is not Enel training his fruit, it's him using it normally and not actively using it to refine it and thus train it. Also this doesn't fulfill Sagan's Standard since you'd essentially still be saying Enel went from 6-C to High 6-A within the arc which is still an extraordinary claim
If you read the manga or had any information at all about the events you would know the exact reason why and the meaning to what Zoro said...

0348-005.png
0348-006.png
0348-007.png
0348-014.png
0348-016.png
0348-017.png
0348-018.png

First Luffy is literally shown and stated to become stronger and faster than when he was at Water 7
0383-011.png
0383-012.png
0383-013.png
0383-014.png

Then literally right after that page, Nami gets worried, and Zoro then reassures her by saying that they've all gotten stronger with every island they've passed
0383-015.png

This is nothing about experience at all, and is 100% about fighting power. This also confirms it as well (Cheating death has actually nothing to do with it, that was about usopp being able to cheat death... Getting stronger part is via determination)

And that all happened from just a few hours...
This doesn't necessarily disprove my interpretation since both your interpretation (They get stronger within the same arc) and mine (they've experienced becoming stronger within each island's events) aren't contradictory, and again; you still gotta fulfill Sagan's Standard bro
... Via using the same technique, it was way smaller
0279-014.png
0458-001.png

Raigo has nothing to with enel's base and isn't comparable
Still doesn't mean AP = DC
 
Can I just say I agree with all the options? We know Oda isn’t the best when it comes to back-scaling, we’ve seen that with Crocodile. And Enel was portrayed as being way above him by a huge margin. It was stated multiple times during the arc that Luffy only had a chance because of his body composition, and that was clearly the author’s intent.

Even if someone tries to nitpick a few scenes to say Luffy scales to him, it’s pretty clear that Enel was way above him and Luffy would have immediately lost if not for his body as all his crew mate would have lost. The scenes where characters survive Enel’s lightning bolts can easily be explained by Enel holding back and being extremely arrogant due to his god complex.

As for Crocodile, it could just be that Enel really is that strong now, because that’s how Oda scales things. Honestly, I wouldn’t even be surprised if Enel comes back and somehow puts up a fight against Zoro or Luffy. But that's just me assuming things, for saying I wouldn't disagree to just give him a full new key.
 
Another misinterpretation. First off, these panels do not prove that he has used his fruit more than he ever had before
Yes it definitely does... Otherwise skypiea wouldn't have existed as strawhats arrive there
big moves do not inherently prove this
going all out definitely does and using your power over and over again does as well

and second, the statement saying that "the more you train your fruit, the more powerful it gets" does not apply here because this is not Enel training his fruit, it's him using it normally and not actively using it to refine it and thus train it.
... literally does not work like that at all, you're ignoring what I said and showed... The devil fruit statement for train here is by continuously using it

How would you train the bomb fruit...? The kilo fruit? Like come on, it would be similar "training" to haki via just actively using it...

You're basically trying to say "train" here means to use it more skillfully (sports like training) so that it gets stronger, which literally does not work that way, especially when they use the word "evolve", and also gets stronger for the same techniques (it would be like "training" by continuously doing push ups and getting stronger and stronger but instead stronger for the devil fruit overall by using it and more like leveling you do in games)
This doesn't necessarily disprove my interpretation
It fully does
since both your interpretation (They get stronger within the same arc) and mine (they've experienced becoming stronger within each island's events) aren't contradictory
Isn't about interpretation... You said they got stronger via getting more experienced and didn't get a strength amp which I proved isn't the case at all

In just a few hours they become Small City level to way above Island level and you think a whole month wouldn't insanely increase one's ability?
and again; you still gotta fulfill Sagan's Standard bro
I don't care who Sagan is or his standard, my evidence is already enough. You're acting like the only evidence I have is someone one time getting a strength amp or something...
Still doesn't mean AP = DC
Never said that and means nothing to what I said. The same technique does more than what it did before = something have changed, what exactly? His devil fruit evolving


Yeah (although I'm the OP) Saqphire makes more sense imo
The only reason is because you took more time to prepare the other two options 😴🙈
 
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Okay, so I'll start right off the bat with stating the controversial conclusion I came to: I don't think we should use this feat for powerscaling the characters, including Enel himself.

And I'll do my best to explain why.

As near as I can understand it, the full argument for the revision to Enel is essentially this:

1) The Space Pirates use this machine right here as part of their excavation work on the Moon.

2) If the machine was at point-blank range of the excavating explosion when it went off, that means its durability scales to the full potency of the explosion used for excavating.

3) The Space Pirates triggered this explosion on the Moon [calced here by KingTempest].

4) Enel destroyed the machinery during his rampage against the Space Pirates, so his Attack Potency scales above the durability of the machines, which scales to the potency of the explosion calced above.

At face value, it seems really simple and straightforward so I get where the OP is coming from with it.

But I think some things which are being taken at face value are heavily dependant on a lot of assumptions here. First of all, let me preface that the Cover Stories overall are pretty sparse on details; we get them as a single captioned panel at a time, often skipping scenes and portraying the events of their stories as a bunch of snapshots. We sometimes need to make assumptions and inferences about what is going on, but it is because of that very problem that we can't always be completely sure about what is happening.

And it goes without saying that the more assumptions you're required to make about something, the less reliable it will be.

Firstly, I don't think we can be sure that the machine was at the centre of this explosion when it went off.

We don't know what this machinery is exactly or what role it plays in the Space Pirates' excavation other than we see it in the crater after the explosion has taken place. Did it cause the explosion itself? Is it used to clear rubble or debris after the explosion? Does it drill further down perhaps? As I said, details are sparse on its exact nature; if it isn't directly involved in the explosion itself then thar raises the question of if it was at point-blank range of whatever explosive was set off.

And does it being located in the crater in this panel necessarily mean that it was always right there the whole time since before the explosion was set off? We don't have a "Before" shot prior to the explosion going off. All we see is the explosion itself, and the aftermath. In the aftermath, we see this big eel-like alien seemingly inside the crater and touching the machinery. Maybe, after the explosion happened, this big guy lowered the machinery into the newly created crater.

As KT pointed out, the Space Pirates have infrastructure around the excavation zone. The whole area is fenced off and there's other machinery present. It's possible that this machine was just present next to the crater and was lowered in to continue the excavation work.

But okay - maybe the machinery was actually there, dug into the ground and it was used to detonate some kind of explosive. Maybe it drilled down into the lunar surface and then placed the bomb there. I can't assert that the big alien definitely moved the machinery after the explosion went off, so I'm just raising the possibility.

Secondly, the bigger issue is that the proposal in the OP isn't that we use the explosion that we see on-screen here in which the machinery could plausibly have been in close proximity of and withstood. The proposal is that we use this other explosion to scale the machinery's durability. I'll refer to the former as Explosion 1 and the latter as Explosion 2.

The benefit at the least for Explosion 1 is that the machinery is visible after the explosion took place and in the crater that was caused by the explosion. That at least makes it a plausible assumption that it was there all along and therefore scales to the explosion as we see it intact.

But we have even less context about Explosion 2 than we do with Explosion 1. We don't see what machinery was used during it, or whether that machinery truly did survive intact despite supposedly being at the center of this Multi-Continental explosion. We don't know that it is the exact same equipment used during Explosion 1. We don't know that the Space Pirates only have one of these things and they use the same one each time.

Without direct evidence of the machinery being at the dead-centre of this vast explosion, it currently comes across as an association fallacy; where we presumably see the machinery intact after one explosion, therefore in a vastly different explosion the same machinery was probably used and it was just as unaffected by larger explosion as it was by the smaller explosion.

Thirdly, I think there is also a simple common sense matter here that I think needs to be taken into account. Let's consider the narrative logic behind what is happening here; the Space Pirates are performing an excavation mission of the ruins on the Moon. They're blasting a hole into the Moon's surface in order to uncover the entrance to the ruins visible here. It's dozens of meters, or a couple hundred meters, below the lunar surface.

Which makes the use of an explosion like this to uncover it rather implausible.

As KingTempest calculated, this explosion here is about 363608626 meters across, or 363608.626 kilometers. It is as wide 28.5 planet Earth's lined up end-to-end. It is an explosion massively larger than most planets.

And the Space Pirates were using this to... uncover some ruins near the Moon's surface? A couple of hundred meters down?

There's no getting away from the fact that this explosion and this explosion are about as far apart as you can get in their differing depictions. The one we actually see the Space Pirates use in detail in their excavation plan is a few hundred meters across, maybe a kilometer. The other one? Hundreds of thousands of times bigger, and no narrative cause behind it; we don't see a vast crater left behind by it. As mentioned above don't even see any surviving machinery used in this detonation.

Now, I know what some people maybe thinking here: "Damage, what are you talking about? We see the explosion happen on-panel. That means it really did happen and it was that big despite all your skepticism."

The thing is, just because we see something on-screen doesn't always mean it is meant to be taken literally. Exaggeration is a common technique and it's not limited to just statements either; art style can be deliberatelt exaggerated even without getting into the whole Toon Physics thing.

Like take this panel of Darkshine from the manga One-Punch Man as an example. He's not literally that big; we would be silly for trying to pixelscale his height here. He's drawn in an exgerrated manner to emphasize the intimidation / power he has. Or an example closer to home, the Seven Warlords of the Sea in One Piece are drawn in an exagerrated manner in this panel. Just like at the tiny Marine in front of them. Mihawk is only mean to be 2 meters tall but here he looks twice that size.

Things can be drawn in an exaggerated manner for many reasons; for comedic purposes, for emphasis, for dramatic effect, etc. In this case, I think it's simply that if the explosion was drawn at the proper scale for what it's intended purpose is, then it would of course be nigh-invisible against the true scale of the Moon. It was simply drawn big so that the audience can see it and so that the old man would suffer a heart attack upon noticing an explosion go off on the Moon's surface, thus giving the tiny Automata people a reason to travel up to the Moon for vengeance.

Now, too much skepticism is a bad thing I know. If there were more consistency to this feat, then there wouldn't be as much of a problem with it. But the fact is that we don't juse have a single Moon explosion to judge off of. We have two. And with there being such an enormous difference in portrayal between the two, that calls into question the legitimacy of exclusively scaling off of the one explosion.


Now, I apologize for the lengthy post but I just want to make it clear that I don't think that the situation is as straightforward to powerscale as is presented. Does this mean that I don't think we should powerscale Enel destroying the machinery at all? No.

I think the better options would be that we calculate the actual explosion that the machinery can most plausibly be tied to, Explosion 1. We can also calculate the actual damages to machinery itself as an alternative to that by finding its volume, assuming a reasonable material for it, and then calculating how much of it Enel destroyed or damaged - but that's a more complicated option with more assumptions.

I just think that there are enough issues with trying to powerscale Enel directly to the High 6-A explosion for me to be against the proposals in the OP.

@Elizhaa @Dalesean027 @Duedate8898 @Reiner04 As you all evaluated this earlier thread which argued in favor of having Enel scale to the large explosion on the Moon, I would appreciate it if you could read my thoughts on this topic here.
 
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