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Yogiri is newly obtained Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 downgrade to Type 3

Grabbing_dragon

Grabbing_dragon

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So, in this recent thread, magic was accepted as a Type 2 concept, as we initially took it to mean that magic is the concept of all things. However, I’m going to show why that is not the case.

​

Reasoning​

Magic is the foundation of all things in the sense that every object has its own personal magic, which functions as its personal concept/essence of its existence. As seen from the desk and again confirmed in this scan, magic power exists in everything as an essential force that defines what something is within the thing it is present in. It also provides Al-kun and Lilia-chan as examples, as they possess their own magic,which allows them to exist as themselves. Additionally, the last scan explicitly states that "everything possesses magical power, and that power is what defines its existence," which again means everything has its own personal concept/magic that governs its existence.

Basically, as you can see, each object possesses its own personal concept, so magic should be downgraded to a type 3 concept, as it makes more sense. Since magic is not a singular concept of "everything-ness," meaning it is one concept that governs all existence, its destruction would cause everything to cease to exist. Instead of everything having its own personal concepts.

Agree: @Greatsage13th @SweetDao @Shar122 @FinePoint (Agrees that the manipulation of magic is Conceptual Manipulation Type 3) @sukuna171 @Eseseso @Elizhaa] @ActuallySpaceMan42
Disagree:
Neutral: @StorytellingDemonKing @FinePoint (Magic being type 2 concept )
 
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Feel like downgrading Instant Death's magic to Type 3 based on given scans misunderstands the nature of what’s described. The fact that each object possesses magical power that defines its existence doesn't necessarily imply it’s just a personal or localized concept. Probably the opposite, since the scan explicitly states that magical power is "the foundation of all things" and persists even when physical form is broken down, reducing existence to pure conceptual essence.

It shows 1) A universal framework where magic acts as the defining structure of reality. 2) Type 3 would imply the concept is non-fundamental, but the text explicitly states that magic is the fundamental basis of reality.

So, the correct Type remains Type 2, or maybe Type 1. Type 3 is nonsense. Anyway, that's just from someone who is neutral. Cya.
 
StorytellingDemonKing said:
Feel like downgrading Instant Death's magic to Type 3 based on given scans misunderstands the nature of what’s described. The fact that each object possesses magical power that defines its existence doesn't necessarily imply it’s just a personal or localized concept. Probably the opposite, since the scan explicitly states that magical power is "the foundation of all things" and persists even when physical form is broken down, reducing existence to pure conceptual essence.

It shows 1) A universal framework where magic acts as the defining structure of reality. 2) Type 3 would imply the concept is non-fundamental, but the text explicitly states that magic is the fundamental basis of reality.

So, the correct Type remains Type 2, or maybe Type 1. Type 3 is nonsense. Anyway, that's just from someone who is neutral. Cya.
Click to expand...
I agree with this guy thinking.
 
StorytellingDemonKing said:
Feel like downgrading Instant Death's magic to Type 3 based on given scans misunderstands the nature of what’s described. The fact that each object possesses magical power that defines its existence doesn't necessarily imply it’s just a personal or localized concept. Probably the opposite, since the scan explicitly states that magical power is "the foundation of all things" and persists even when physical form is broken down, reducing existence to pure conceptual essence.
Click to expand...
That is the issue—each object possesses its own magic power that governs its existence, which is a Type 3 concept since it only governs one thing. Type 3 is also fundamental, as it governs the entire existence of its particular .
Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question,
StorytellingDemonKing said:
It shows 1) A universal framework where magic acts as the defining structure of reality. 2) Type 3 would imply the concept is non-fundamental, but the text explicitly states that magic is the fundamental basis of reality.
Click to expand...
Nowhere does it state that a Type 3 concept is not fundamental, and I already said that it is the fundamental basis of reality in a way that is not Type 2 or Type 1 concepts, and that can also be interpreted as a Type 3 concept governing the reality of its object.
 
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I would say this comment explains very well why this is not a Type 2 concept, since the sum of all individual magic power governs everything rather than a singular concept, as I stated above. A Pain Bruh shows no interest in almost any crt.
 
Would that change anything?
(MTL stuff I didn't bother asking for a translation, but if helpful in a way, I can ask to get a translation.
« "Thinner?" Al asked again, not really understanding what he meant.

"You know, sometimes there are people who have no presence, right? It's like that. Magical power is the power of existence. In other words, if your magical power decreases, your presence decreases."

"Is that all?" Lilia asked in surprise. It certainly seemed strange that magic could be used with something so minor. Al had thought that there must be some kind of compensation.

"It's best not to underestimate the loss of presence. If magical power is cut in half, that existence can no longer sustain itself. In other words, if you're human, you die."

Al was at a loss for words when he said it so bluntly.

"But normally, it's impossible to use all your magic power. A quarter is the limit, to be on the safe side. If you lose nearly half your magic power, it seems you won't even know who you are, and it will take a long time to recover from that state."

"I see. So using magic is a self-destructive act. What determines how much magic power you have?"

"Roughly speaking, it's whether you have individuality or not. That's what presence is all about, isn't it? If you compare a tree growing nearby to a giant tree that's 100 years old, anyone can see that the giant tree has more presence. Of course, the giant tree has more magic. So it's the same for humans. Simply dressing in a peculiar way can increase your magic. »
Click to expand...
 
SweetDao said:
Would that change anything?
(MTL stuff I didn't bother asking for a translation, but if helpful in a way, I can ask to get a translation.
Click to expand...
Useful in a way that everything has its own distinct magic, further supporting that magic is a Type 3 concept. So thanks, it looks useful, and I need it since it uses phrases that mean the magic you have only governs you.
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
Useful in a way that everything has its own distinct magic, further supporting that magic is a Type 3 concept. So thanks, it looks useful, and I need it since it uses phrases that mean the magic you have only governs you.
Click to expand...
I'll ask for a translation on the translation thread.
 
SweetDao said:
Would that change anything?
(MTL stuff I didn't bother asking for a translation, but if helpful in a way, I can ask to get a translation.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't Yogiri still have CM2 due to his ability to remove a person's MP from the ensemble?
 
sukuna171 said:
Shouldn't Yogiri still have CM2 due to his ability to remove a person's MP from the ensemble?
Click to expand...
For that, it would have needed context that the magic in each object or individual is not only bound to governing them. Since it is called 'your magic' and 'your existence,' it means it is only limited to governing one thing. A Type 2 concept, for example: if you broke down a desk and reached the very essence of its existence, instead of calling it that, it would be referred to as the very essence of everything that exists as a desk. The difference is that the former refers to the essence of a single desk, while the latter refers to the essence of all desks.
 
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It sounds like this might be a case of a Type 2 concept having subset Type 3 concepts.

Regardless, if manipulating someone's "magic" only ever affects their personal existence, that would be the manipulation of a Type 3 concept.

So whether or not the Type 2 concept also exists, it seems like in context Type 3 is appropriate for the sake of manipulation.
 
No, for me, magic determines all existence, that's type 2.
With type 3 as a subset, that is, objects.
Where characters with magic will get type 2, but destroying existence will be type 3.
 
Ihsjihahxu said:
Where characters with magic will get type 2, but destroying existence will be type 3.
Click to expand...
Not really no, magic is simply the manipulation of possibility/causality (unless you're a god) so it wouldn't scale regardless.
 
Ihsjihahxu said:
No, for me, magic determines all existence, that's type 2.
With type 3 as a subset, that is, objects.
Click to expand...
Do you have evidence that a singular concept governs all existence, which requires magic to be called the essence of all existence, rather than the sum of all Type 3 concepts governing everything?
 
FinePoint said:
It sounds like this might be a case of a Type 2 concept having subset Type 3 concepts.

Regardless, if manipulating someone's "magic" only ever affects their personal existence, that would be the manipulation of a Type 3 concept.

So whether or not the Type 2 concept also exists, it seems like in context Type 3 is appropriate for the sake of manipulation.
Click to expand...
I am not knowledgeable about conceptual matters, but if a more informed staff member believes it to be type 3, then I agree.
 
sukuna171 said:
I am not knowledgeable about conceptual matters, but if a more informed staff member believes it to be type 3, then I agree.
Click to expand...
Well, that's an appeal to authority, friend. As much as I hate to admit it, I am not always right.

You should look at the Concept Manipulation page and try to come to a conclusion yourself.
 
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