I'm a bit confused actually. If we're using a tier 2 super form, wouldn't chaos energy also be capped at tier 2? If we're using 6D for the hax then wouldn't the physical stats also be at the 6D level- unless the Emeralds can somehow regulate stats and hax to be of different potenties somehow?
I'll try and break it down for you since there isn't any good place that notes this:
The only hax that are higher-D is:
- Chaos Control (as the Time Manipulation is on a 6-D scale)
- A handful of resistances in Base because of some characters no-selling the Time Eater nuke.
- Maybe 1 or 2 more things off the top of my head.
As a side note; Higher Dimensionality hax apparently doesn't apply anymore when it comes to Metaphysical Aspects ("examples include
laws,
causality,
information,
concepts,
plot" - Metaphysical Aspects page). This was brought up in a different Sonic match, iirc the reason being something along the lines of "Dimensionality shouldn't matter for Meta Aspects until you reach 1-A".
Granted, at that rate, I'm not sure how we could even gauge the potency comparison of such things when talking cross-verse.
Either way if we can't even determine what Invulnerability works on or doesn't work on I don't see how this conversation can continue. From what I can tell it seems to only work on physical attacks and the rest is a seperate resistance???
Gotta get to the nitty-gritty here. The Invulnerability is NOT assumed to work on ALL hax, but there are some which it does resist which may set a precedent.
An important note: Shadow's Invulnerability in Shadow the Hedgehog 2005 is based off of entering his Hero State or Dark State, which is
stated to be fueled by either Heroism/Justice/Selflessness or
Hatred/Vengeance/Villainy. In other words, what fuels Shadow's Invulnerability is the same source that powers a Super Form; Emotional Empowerment. The context is needed because what I'm showing isn't from a Super State directly, but relies on the exact same mechanics for transforming (and thus why they share justifications for Invul).
- Fire
- Poisons
- Toxins
- Electricity
- Matter Manipulation (From the Particle Beam Cannon)
- Anti-Matter
Here is a compilation of what can no longer harm Shadow in this Hero/Dark state.
As for other details where it might be helpful to add onto
- The speed issue Shake brings up is a point at first glance. But we do have some answers for that in Cyber Elves, the Dark Elf can turn a non-combatant into a "Z-Era Zero" level fighter, and Omega gets that kind of buff, there's Cyber Elves that increase running speed (and maybe attack speed?) that the Dark Elf can also grant, and there's also equippable parts from the X Series like the Hyper Dash, and even forms like Black Zero which do give a speed boost if I recall (maybe it was Command Mission- but there's no difference between the form throughout the series anyways). So, I think the argument can be made thar Omega can close that gap especially since a lot of these are passive as supposed to "active moves" like spin dashing and such. There's also the Speed Gear (4x boost) that Wily would have implemented into all of his robot masters but you can also argue that he perfected it to just be base speed too so idk
Honestly I like that, it's a bit tedious to find opponents that can react to speed among moves.
For reference though, the Spin Dash (and others) moreso vastly upscale from 4x since he turned a blitz around despite being able to consistently keep track of Metal Sonic whenever he is using the V. Maximum Overdrive Attack (which is 4x). In other words, V. MOA (4x) < Spin Dash < Super Peel Out.
Still, I think Omega can hang herw.
- - If that isn't enough Omega does have omnidirectional shields like Yammar Option, and I want to note that Metal seemingly is a melee fighter first(?), so it'll definitely be more dangerous to go up against Omega's solid AoE, Spammable Rekkoha/Messenkou are pretty much screen clears but Invul exists so I'll just mention the spammable omnidirectional AoE of Arc Blade which has the aforementioned Absolute Zero stuff going on (BTW, its layered: Tundra Storm < Blizzard Buffalo resists AZ < Frost Walrus freezes Buffalo < X Era Zero resists that < (probably some other interactions I'm forgetting) < Blizzack Stagroff AZ Cannons freeze Z-Era Zero. Again, unsure of how it interacts with AZ since I still don't really get how it works perfectly besides its mechanic
Fair, though Metal Sonic does have the Black Shield that
also acts as omnidirectional protection even from those amped with an Emerald (Giant Zavok). If the scan didn't load I'm sorry, had to nab it quick.
- As for the reaction stuff I honestly thought that stuff was a given- pretty sure a human has reaction speeds like that but... aight (Off topic but I really don't understand "multiple times baseline of infinite speed" unless there's some set theory stuff going on I don't get how you're getting faster than infinite unless its some DC Comics nonsense)
The Inf. Speed stuff stems from multipliers iirc, typically often involving either the speed amp techniques we discussed or via Chaos Emerald multipliers.
I personally thought it was entirely redundant but I was told otherwise so eh, whatever.
- When it comes to skill I believe it's probably irrelevant to the discussion so long as they're somewhat comparable and its not a one sided stomp which I think I'm confident enough to prove. Zero should upscale from some pretty crazy stuff like Mega Man who can predict Time Stopper, defeat millenia experienced super computer bots, deal with faster people like Quick Man, etc. There's Tomahawk Man with his ability to throw an axe and cut a candle wick from 100 meters. Zero himself can predict surprise attacks from behind without any real good sensory ability against Sigma who has high specs to always target weak points, there is Magma Dragoon and Agile (X2) with their "master level skill", Gate with his Invulnerability, being comparable to X's feat of fighting an Ultimate Armor version of himself and Awakened Zero at the same time with nothing but a Z Saber and some hover boots in base, fighting teleport spamming/surprise attack users (Cyber Peacock/Grizzly), duplicators (Split Mushroom, Spike Rosered, Flame Hynard)- I feel like this should cover a solid amount of situations that Metal can put Omega in, and at the very least make it somewhat comparable, but if you need more I can try some more. I'm not necessarily saying "lmao Omega skillstomps" because I don't wanna instigate this kind of debate, but I'm just trying to say that it's not gonna be a curb stomp in Metals favor
I agree there's probably no skill-curbing going on here. Dr. Eggman's intellect also comes with a level of arrogance for Neo.
Not a "I'm gonna sit and tank your attack!" thing, more like a "I have all the means to destroy you but I want to drag this out a bit for my amusement". Definitely less of an issue than it is for Eggy tho.
I don't want to do a cop-out "This is inconclusive, Gg, no Ls for me!" but tbh, might be shaping up to be that way. Gonna let other people comment their thoughts first.
