- 5,932
- 7,586
Hello there.
It has been essentially a year since the last CRT for Lord of Mysteries (yes, that’s the official name, so deal with it) and since then, about 600 new chapters have been released with varying degrees of new information.
That, combined with some extra points I’ll bring up, will make it clear why the aforementioned CRT and this page in particular that I personally wrote is wrong and that the information present in them is not just inaccurate, but borderline misinfo.
After addressing the old cosmology mistakes (which will downgrade the current scaling to 1-B), the latter part of this CRT will be focusing on upgrading certain characters to High 1-A+ and even possibly 0.
Agree: FinePoint (1-A, possibly High 1-A+), ActuallySpaceMan42 (1-A, High 1-A+)
Disagree: Antvasima (agrees with 1-A)
It has been essentially a year since the last CRT for Lord of Mysteries (yes, that’s the official name, so deal with it) and since then, about 600 new chapters have been released with varying degrees of new information.
That, combined with some extra points I’ll bring up, will make it clear why the aforementioned CRT and this page in particular that I personally wrote is wrong and that the information present in them is not just inaccurate, but borderline misinfo.
After addressing the old cosmology mistakes (which will downgrade the current scaling to 1-B), the latter part of this CRT will be focusing on upgrading certain characters to High 1-A+ and even possibly 0.
The old reasoning for 1-A Astral World can be summed up as follows:
Beyonder Characteristics are reflections of things from the Astral World, that allow the manipulation of Authorities—who also exist in the Astral World—which in succession allow the manipulation of concepts derived from that Authority. Since BC cannot be destroyed, that implies immutability upon the things which they are being reflected from (i.e the Astral World).
With that reasoning, it seems to imply that the Astral World is some sort of “platonic realm” where all Authorities reside within and in succession where all concepts, including those of space and time, are derived from. Ergo, being Outerversal.
With that in mind, it is time to address why this is wholly incorrect.
Firstly, the “World of Absolute Rationality” that is used as proof for BC being reflections from the Astral World is something that is only mentioned five times in the entire book. And the one time upon which it is elaborated on, it is said that it is referring to the River of Fate, instead. In truth, what this “world of absolute rationality” is, is just a certain worldview of a single organization in the entire series and that the real cosmology comprises Reality, the Spirit World and the Astral World. In essence, the World of Absolute Rationality ≠ the Astral World.
And additionally, we know all Beyonder Characteristics are derived from the Original Creator, instead. So, yeah.
Secondly, the Astral World (and furthermore the entire cosmology) is dependent upon the Physical World in order to exist. As in, the physical world is actually the foundation of the entire universe.
I don’t believe I should explain why this absolutely does not fly with 1-A. Otherwise, it would be tantamount to claiming that the World of Forms is dependent upon the physical world in order to exist, which is complete absurdity.
Also, Authorities can be affected by lesser abilities and people who don’t even have control over any Authority like Ludwig who is only Sequence 2.
So, in conclusion, not only are things in the Astral World not immutable, but they do not even serve the act of being universal ideals or for that matter, even being detached from physical reality in any meaningful sense. Essentially, the Astral World is not 1-A and is currently only a conceptual, unscalable realm with BDE Type 1.
Knowing that, all characters who currently scale to 1-A and Low 1-A will be temporarily downgraded to 1-B since that scaling is based on the above misconceptions.
(There is a second CRT coming after this that will try to upgrade those characters back to Low 1-A using a different line of reasoning, but that is for later.)
Beyonder Characteristics are reflections of things from the Astral World, that allow the manipulation of Authorities—who also exist in the Astral World—which in succession allow the manipulation of concepts derived from that Authority. Since BC cannot be destroyed, that implies immutability upon the things which they are being reflected from (i.e the Astral World).
With that reasoning, it seems to imply that the Astral World is some sort of “platonic realm” where all Authorities reside within and in succession where all concepts, including those of space and time, are derived from. Ergo, being Outerversal.
With that in mind, it is time to address why this is wholly incorrect.
Firstly, the “World of Absolute Rationality” that is used as proof for BC being reflections from the Astral World is something that is only mentioned five times in the entire book. And the one time upon which it is elaborated on, it is said that it is referring to the River of Fate, instead. In truth, what this “world of absolute rationality” is, is just a certain worldview of a single organization in the entire series and that the real cosmology comprises Reality, the Spirit World and the Astral World. In essence, the World of Absolute Rationality ≠ the Astral World.
And additionally, we know all Beyonder Characteristics are derived from the Original Creator, instead. So, yeah.
Secondly, the Astral World (and furthermore the entire cosmology) is dependent upon the Physical World in order to exist. As in, the physical world is actually the foundation of the entire universe.
I don’t believe I should explain why this absolutely does not fly with 1-A. Otherwise, it would be tantamount to claiming that the World of Forms is dependent upon the physical world in order to exist, which is complete absurdity.
So, in conclusion, not only are things in the Astral World not immutable, but they do not even serve the act of being universal ideals or for that matter, even being detached from physical reality in any meaningful sense. Essentially, the Astral World is not 1-A and is currently only a conceptual, unscalable realm with BDE Type 1.
Knowing that, all characters who currently scale to 1-A and Low 1-A will be temporarily downgraded to 1-B since that scaling is based on the above misconceptions.
(There is a second CRT coming after this that will try to upgrade those characters back to Low 1-A using a different line of reasoning, but that is for later.)
This part is slightly outdated, read this comment for the update. Instead of Sefirot gaining 1-A, Symbolism gets the rating, instead. Sefirot instead act as the way for which a being is capable of utilizing Symbolism. And most likely will get a 1-A contingent indestructibility (alongside the Spirits of GOOs). It’s kinda similar to how Authorities were previously, except that nobody actually scales directly to Symbolism as no character has a feat of affecting them aside from OC and Fourth Pillar.
Now we’re getting onto the nitty gritty of the CRT.
Firstly, it should be mentioned that Sefirot and GOOs born from the Original Creator are interchangeable since the latter are just the manifested psyche of the former. That is what “Godhood” is, essentially. And they are completely indestructible (which is why Klein will eventually succumb to Celestial Worthy in the future).
So what do Sefirots do? Well, they act as the foundation for things in the universe. That is, in the sense that things only start existing after the specific Sefirot do.
For example, Reality only existed after the Mother Goddess of Depravity started existing. Shadows and Order only after Son of Chaos existed. Life only after Mother Tree of Desire existed, etc. And affecting the Sefirot directly affects the things derived from them.
Additionally, including Beyonder Characteristics and Uniquenesses, they are completely immutable, or more specifically, their Spirit or Essence is. Only OC and Fourth Pillar (who I’ll get into later) can affect them.
Knowing this, the Essences/Spirits or Symbolism of Sefirot (with the addition of OCs Spirit that underlines even them) will get at bare minimum 1-A for preceding and being the foundation for all things, including Space, Dimensionality (that is specified in-verse to be in relation to spatial dimensions) and Time while being wholly immutable and unreachable by the things derived from them. (They’re also unaffected by stuff like existence erasure or fate.)
The things derived from them though, like GOOs and their abilities do not gain this rating and stay at 1-B since they can’t affect the essences but the Psyches of Sefirot gain “immortality” that scales to them.
Now we’re getting onto the nitty gritty of the CRT.
Firstly, it should be mentioned that Sefirot and GOOs born from the Original Creator are interchangeable since the latter are just the manifested psyche of the former. That is what “Godhood” is, essentially. And they are completely indestructible (which is why Klein will eventually succumb to Celestial Worthy in the future).
So what do Sefirots do? Well, they act as the foundation for things in the universe. That is, in the sense that things only start existing after the specific Sefirot do.
For example, Reality only existed after the Mother Goddess of Depravity started existing. Shadows and Order only after Son of Chaos existed. Life only after Mother Tree of Desire existed, etc. And affecting the Sefirot directly affects the things derived from them.
Additionally, including Beyonder Characteristics and Uniquenesses, they are completely immutable, or more specifically, their Spirit or Essence is. Only OC and Fourth Pillar (who I’ll get into later) can affect them.
Knowing this, the Essences/Spirits or Symbolism of Sefirot (with the addition of OCs Spirit that underlines even them) will get at bare minimum 1-A for preceding and being the foundation for all things, including Space, Dimensionality (that is specified in-verse to be in relation to spatial dimensions) and Time while being wholly immutable and unreachable by the things derived from them. (They’re also unaffected by stuff like existence erasure or fate.)
The things derived from them though, like GOOs and their abilities do not gain this rating and stay at 1-B since they can’t affect the essences but the Psyches of Sefirot gain “immortality” that scales to them.
For the concise and shortened scale, refer to this. (Tho, do read the post below.)
Let us define exactly what each—OC and Chaos—are.
The Original Creator is the being responsible for the creation of the LOM verse, described as the amalgamation and collection of all concepts—even contradictory ones. All Sefirot, Uniqueness and Beyonder Characteristics are derived from it and its Spirit is what underlies all of the cosmology. To continue, its Spirit even precedes all the Sefirot and exists regardless of whether or not the Sefirot and things derived from them exist like: Change, Truth, Reality, Dimensionality, Space, Time etc. (As shown in earlier scans that show OC existing before Sefirot and that it’ll exist until the end of all things.) Additionally, OC exists in every cycle of the universe making it a necessary thing for things to exist in the verse. And as per WoG, it is capable of actualizing any Universe it wants. (Also its consciousness is present in all living things [Godhood] and it can do impossible things.)
Now, what does this “end of all things” or “cycle of the universe” refer to? Well, that’d be Chaos, which is described as a singularity in which all possibilities lie within. (Also, Chaos and the Primordial State, as seen in the scans should be differentiated a bit.) The Original Creator and the entire world is essentially derived from this “Chaos” and as obvious, the Chaos itself has never “ceased being”.
If you think these refer to probability/chance/spatiotemporal possibilities, please consult this and this.
The Fourth Pillar is also the mechanism in which a certain cycle of the LOM verse returns to the Chaotic Singularity (including OC) which then inevitably becomes a new universe with a new OC. Now, why is this important?
Well, Chaos and the Original Creator are likened to existence and non-existence itself which is also rather obvious considering that OC not only exists in every cycle but it is also the foundation of the universe and every possible notion (Sefirot and the like) there is, whereas Chaos is the “non-existence” that precedes even this in which all possible universes are derived from.
This concept, if you are familiar with it, is very close to the idea of Wuji and Taiji. Where Wuji here would refer to Chaos and Taiji would be referring to OC, which is also directly referenced in relation to the dualistic concepts of Yin and Yang creating all things within it.
So, what does this mean? Well, if OC (specifically its Spirit/Essence) is truly existence itself (considering the above points), the he must be High 1-A+ by necessity, since his Spirit/Essence should be the immutable foundation of literally anything that can possibly exist, as OC is the thing from which all possibilities within Chaos are actualized (not just including the universe, but even its “platonic” foundations like the Symbolism).
And to say that OC is not High 1A+ would essentially be to claim that there are possible things that can exist without existence itself. That would certainly be a self-contradictory claim.
Chaos on the other hand, as likenened earlier to Wuji, would be the eternal source of existence that precedes it in such a way that it can only be likened to non-existence itself. Since, if OC is existence itself, then Chaos cannot be “part” of that existence and instead must transcend even all notions that are part of being. Instead, existence (the Original Creator) and all possible ways in which it can be manifested as are within the singularity that the Primordial Chaos is. Meaning, the Primordial Chaos is truly an undifferentiated unity (singularity) or “0” where all things can be spawned from (OC) and eventually return (Fourth Pillar).
Knowing this, what is the proof for the undifferentiated unity I spoke of above?
1. OC and Chaos are implied to be the same or represent each other. (Look at the Primordial Chaos scan as well.)
2. Both Chaos and OC are described as unknowable; ineffable; unspeakable/apophatic.
3. All things are manifested by the concepts and divinities within OC engaging in a dualistic union of Yin-Yang where contradictions essentially contain one-another.
4. OC is all these contradictions.
5. The Chaotic Singularity then simply being the undifferentiated singularity of these unified dualities.
6. As explained above, Chaos and OC should precede Truth and logic (although the latter is mostly based on WoG) which fits perfectly with point 3.
7. Not just its being, but also its consciousness (Godhood) is present within all things.
8. The return to chaos is described as being from all things fully converging into the singularity and from OC becoming whole.
9. OC should also just be the Fourth Pillar itself. Meaning the process in which all Yin-Yang dualities collapse into one is through OC.
If this is true, then, as mentioned, Chaos is completely an undifferentiated one where existence and all notions is all that is already within it (the usage of “frozen universe” here implying the state of all that can be is within the singularity but there is a lack of contradictions manifesting anything; as in, if everything is brought about by Yin and Yang, Chaos further represents the very absence of that distinction) where OC is just the manifestation of all that is already in this dualistic union.
Essentially, OC is all Yin-Yang unions, whereas Chaos is what they return to when the duality within the union “collapses” into one. (If OC is Two-in-One, then Chaos is just One.)
In such a case, there exists no true distinction between all possible and impossible (as seen by OC being capable of doing impossible things) notions meaning all devolves into a singular “one”. A.k.a a Tier 0 “one”—which would be Chaos.
Let us define exactly what each—OC and Chaos—are.
The Original Creator is the being responsible for the creation of the LOM verse, described as the amalgamation and collection of all concepts—even contradictory ones. All Sefirot, Uniqueness and Beyonder Characteristics are derived from it and its Spirit is what underlies all of the cosmology. To continue, its Spirit even precedes all the Sefirot and exists regardless of whether or not the Sefirot and things derived from them exist like: Change, Truth, Reality, Dimensionality, Space, Time etc. (As shown in earlier scans that show OC existing before Sefirot and that it’ll exist until the end of all things.) Additionally, OC exists in every cycle of the universe making it a necessary thing for things to exist in the verse. And as per WoG, it is capable of actualizing any Universe it wants. (Also its consciousness is present in all living things [Godhood] and it can do impossible things.)
Now, what does this “end of all things” or “cycle of the universe” refer to? Well, that’d be Chaos, which is described as a singularity in which all possibilities lie within. (Also, Chaos and the Primordial State, as seen in the scans should be differentiated a bit.) The Original Creator and the entire world is essentially derived from this “Chaos” and as obvious, the Chaos itself has never “ceased being”.
If you think these refer to probability/chance/spatiotemporal possibilities, please consult this and this.
The Fourth Pillar is also the mechanism in which a certain cycle of the LOM verse returns to the Chaotic Singularity (including OC) which then inevitably becomes a new universe with a new OC. Now, why is this important?
Well, Chaos and the Original Creator are likened to existence and non-existence itself which is also rather obvious considering that OC not only exists in every cycle but it is also the foundation of the universe and every possible notion (Sefirot and the like) there is, whereas Chaos is the “non-existence” that precedes even this in which all possible universes are derived from.
This concept, if you are familiar with it, is very close to the idea of Wuji and Taiji. Where Wuji here would refer to Chaos and Taiji would be referring to OC, which is also directly referenced in relation to the dualistic concepts of Yin and Yang creating all things within it.
So, what does this mean? Well, if OC (specifically its Spirit/Essence) is truly existence itself (considering the above points), the he must be High 1-A+ by necessity, since his Spirit/Essence should be the immutable foundation of literally anything that can possibly exist, as OC is the thing from which all possibilities within Chaos are actualized (not just including the universe, but even its “platonic” foundations like the Symbolism).
And to say that OC is not High 1A+ would essentially be to claim that there are possible things that can exist without existence itself. That would certainly be a self-contradictory claim.
Chaos on the other hand, as likenened earlier to Wuji, would be the eternal source of existence that precedes it in such a way that it can only be likened to non-existence itself. Since, if OC is existence itself, then Chaos cannot be “part” of that existence and instead must transcend even all notions that are part of being. Instead, existence (the Original Creator) and all possible ways in which it can be manifested as are within the singularity that the Primordial Chaos is. Meaning, the Primordial Chaos is truly an undifferentiated unity (singularity) or “0” where all things can be spawned from (OC) and eventually return (Fourth Pillar).
Knowing this, what is the proof for the undifferentiated unity I spoke of above?
1. OC and Chaos are implied to be the same or represent each other. (Look at the Primordial Chaos scan as well.)
2. Both Chaos and OC are described as unknowable; ineffable; unspeakable/apophatic.
3. All things are manifested by the concepts and divinities within OC engaging in a dualistic union of Yin-Yang where contradictions essentially contain one-another.
4. OC is all these contradictions.
5. The Chaotic Singularity then simply being the undifferentiated singularity of these unified dualities.
6. As explained above, Chaos and OC should precede Truth and logic (although the latter is mostly based on WoG) which fits perfectly with point 3.
7. Not just its being, but also its consciousness (Godhood) is present within all things.
8. The return to chaos is described as being from all things fully converging into the singularity and from OC becoming whole.
9. OC should also just be the Fourth Pillar itself. Meaning the process in which all Yin-Yang dualities collapse into one is through OC.
If this is true, then, as mentioned, Chaos is completely an undifferentiated one where existence and all notions is all that is already within it (the usage of “frozen universe” here implying the state of all that can be is within the singularity but there is a lack of contradictions manifesting anything; as in, if everything is brought about by Yin and Yang, Chaos further represents the very absence of that distinction) where OC is just the manifestation of all that is already in this dualistic union.
Essentially, OC is all Yin-Yang unions, whereas Chaos is what they return to when the duality within the union “collapses” into one. (If OC is Two-in-One, then Chaos is just One.)
In such a case, there exists no true distinction between all possible and impossible (as seen by OC being capable of doing impossible things) notions meaning all devolves into a singular “one”. A.k.a a Tier 0 “one”—which would be Chaos.
(Primordial State) Chaos - High 1-A+ or 0
Original Creator (Should just be a Key of Chaos really) - High 1-A+
Fourth Pillar (Lumian Lee) - High 1-A+ (since the Fourth Pillar is the mode in which all things return to Chaos, meaning it should span any logically possible world.)
Symbolism - 1-A
Mother Goddess of Depravity - Possibly 1-A (with Chaos Primogenitor, she is capable of even destroying her own Spirit, though the extent in which she can utilize this ability for combat is uncertain)
Klein, Amon and the rest of the Verse - 1-B or below (due to Astral World not being 1-A, they all get downgraded [until the second CRT to upgrade them again to Low 1-A])
Original Creator (Should just be a Key of Chaos really) - High 1-A+
Fourth Pillar (Lumian Lee) - High 1-A+ (since the Fourth Pillar is the mode in which all things return to Chaos, meaning it should span any logically possible world.)
Symbolism - 1-A
Mother Goddess of Depravity - Possibly 1-A (with Chaos Primogenitor, she is capable of even destroying her own Spirit, though the extent in which she can utilize this ability for combat is uncertain)
Klein, Amon and the rest of the Verse - 1-B or below (due to Astral World not being 1-A, they all get downgraded [until the second CRT to upgrade them again to Low 1-A])
Agree: FinePoint (1-A, possibly High 1-A+), ActuallySpaceMan42 (1-A, High 1-A+)
Disagree: Antvasima (agrees with 1-A)
Last edited:
