Correlation of Concepts/Information with Low 1-A/1-A stuff

[Hellformer]

Got permission from @Firestorm808 to make this staff thread

An approach for Low 1-A/1-A cosmology​

As per Ultima, if a realm's existence is in such a way that it is "total absence of space and also completely dwarfs space itself", the realm must be Low 1-A/1-A in size.

"Space itself"​

Now the question arises regarding the meaning of "space itself" in his statement. The first and foremost meaning would be "all possible spatio-temporal extensions" but wouldn't the very fundamental "Concept (Type 1)/Info (Type 2)" of space also suffice that?

Why?​

• Type 1 concept of space would include all spatio-temporal extensions because it represents the pure, abstract idea of space itself, completely independent from the physical structures it governs. Destroying the said concept would wipe out the very idea of space.
• Type 2 information of space is the abstract structural code that serves as fundamental building block of reality and underlies all of existence, which also determines how space exists and operates at every level. Again, destroying the said information would wipe out space itself and result in total absence of space.

The above conditions might be verse specific so please do answer if such cases grant a Low 1-A/1-A rating.

I think I’ve made my point clear enough regarding the query, so I’d like to hear the opinions of staff members or people with a good understanding of Tier 1 stuff.

Thank you very much!

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint

What do you think about thIs?

 

[FinePoint]

I think in theory this makes logical sense, but that we need to be careful how much we conflate hax with AP.

From one perspective, you could view the Type 1 concept of space as a Low 1-A structure, since it's entirely abstract and therefore has no space, but nonetheless is fundamentally superior to it (similar to Ultima's definition there).

Though, from another perspective, you could view the Type 1 concept of space as so abstract it lacks even "size" as a quality, and the destruction of it is purely hax which only destroys all of space as an indirect consequence, rather than Low 1-A power being required to destroy the concept itself.

In terms of fiction, I think the latter assumption is the far safer one without further context.

 

[Hellformer]

I think in theory this makes logical sense, but that we need to be careful how much we conflate hax with AP.

From one perspective, you could view the Type 1 concept of space as a Low 1-A structure, since it's entirely abstract and therefore has no space, but nonetheless is fundamentally superior to it (similar to Ultima's definition there).

Though, from another perspective, you could view the Type 1 concept of space as so abstract it lacks even "size" as a quality, and the destruction of it is purely hax which only destroys all of space as an indirect consequence, rather than Low 1-A power being required to destroy the concept itself.

In terms of fiction, I think the latter assumption is the far safer one without further context.

What about information (Type 2)?
Especially the one that behaves similiarly, here:

Type 2 information of space is the abstract structural code that serves as fundamental building block of reality and underlies all of existence, which also determines how space exists and operates at every level. Again, destroying the said information would wipe out space itself and result in total absence of space.

Also I appreciate your efforts for giving your opinion

 

[DontTalkDT]

If a Type 1 Concept is functionally equivalent to a Universal it might qualify for a 1-A "thing" as far as I am aware. However, due to the difference between the physical and the abstract concept manipulation can't be simply used for scaling. Universal Energy Systems can't exactly translate power to do something abstract into power to do physical things, so ultimately it will always just stay in the realm of smurf hax.
In fact, it would be an obvious anti-feat if physical destruction and abstract manipulations are in some way equalised in scope.


Information Type 2 is, in general, not TIer 1. Unless there are very specific reasons it absolutely does not qualify, since the "Information" space is made of is often still localized in a sense. Instead of being above reality, and reality participating in it, Information is very frequently portrayed as being reality in itself. What follows is that the sum total of all information is the sum total of reality and the sum total of all space information is the sum total of space, with parts of the space information being parts of space.
I.e. information is a thing with quantity.

 

[FinePoint]

What about information (Type 2)?

As DontTalkTD pointed out, Type 2 Information is even more dependent on context, and would qualify in even less scenarios.

 

[Udlmaster]

From the way I have come to understand it;

It depends on the completeness of the concepts. For example, there's concepts in verses which are limited by higher analogues that exist. This is more important when it comes to Multiversal concepts since some "Universal" (in the sense of affecting only 1 universe) do exist and may have higher multiversal analogues.

Therefore, it's a case by case basis of how complete a Concept truly is and whether higher analogues exist within a given verse.

The above is important for Type 2 concepts and can be relevant for Type 1 concepts too.

Generally, AP is not affected by Concept manipulation, for the same reasons why Probability manipulation isn't given Low 2-C status when a given probability manipulator discusses "potential timetracks" or anything to the same effect.

It is, in effect, an indirect form of destruction and simply another form of smurfing.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

i agree with @DontTalkDT
Here , here are the feats universals need for 1A, from Ultima's comments. They would be superior to the very differentiations between points in space.

 

[Hellformer]

If a Type 1 Concept is functionally equivalent to a Universal it might qualify for a 1-A "thing" as far as I am aware. However, due to the difference between the physical and the abstract concept manipulation can't be simply used for scaling. Universal Energy Systems can't exactly translate power to do something abstract into power to do physical things, so ultimately it will always just stay in the realm of smurf hax.
In fact, it would be an obvious anti-feat if physical destruction and abstract manipulations are in some way equalised in scope.

This and Finepoint's comment, completely clears my doubt regarding a type 1 concept, thank you very much

Information Type 2 is, in general, not TIer 1. Unless there are very specific reasons it absolutely does not qualify, since the "Information" space is made of is often still localized in a sense. Instead of being above reality, and reality participating in it, Information is very frequently portrayed as being reality in itself. What follows is that the sum total of all information is the sum total of reality and the sum total of all space information is the sum total of space, with parts of the space information being parts of space.
I.e. information is a thing with quantity.

If that's the case, then would a realm with total absence of space that dwarfs the said information of space (the way you described it) be considered Low 1-A via surpassing all quantitative spatial measures?

Also if an information of space exists in such a way that the character who gains its power or absorbs it can mentally interact with it. And destroying that information would result in total emptiness + changes within that information alters space.
Would this type 2 information be considered similar to a type 1 concept?

Edit: If information in a specific verse is shown to be more fundamental than concepts, would that be a supporting evidence?

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[KLOL506]

Question. What do we assume Info Type 2's potency to be, on the same level as Concept Manip Type 2 or 1? Because as things stand its definition makes no mention of whether this information can survive without said reality or not, and people automatically assume someone with Info Type 2 is superior to someone with Concept Manip Type 1. It gets confusing at times.

@DontTalkDT

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Bump

 

[Udlmaster]

Question. What do we assume Info Type 2's potency to be, on the same level as Concept Manip Type 2 or 1?

Not really.

Fundamental type Information functions on the same level of reality, it's not the source of reality, it is reality. It would be no different than a form of specific Reality Warping. In the same way Reality Warping allows a person to manipulate nearly any aspect of reality, the same applies to Information Manipulation type 2.

Realistically, Information Type 2 is a type of Reality Warping and should probably be labelled as such, as verses with this type of Information Manipulation are made up of Data and Information and therefore, is just warping reality.

In the case of Concepts type 1, reality merely engages in the concepts they represent, such as engaging in the ideal of circleness. As such, they function on a more fundamental basis as they're completely independent of reality and therefore the information/data within it.

As for type 2, since they're involved in and dependant upon reality, they would be affected indirectly, though once again, in the same way they would be with a Reality Warper.

 

[Hellformer]

Not really.

Fundamental type Information functions on the same level of reality, it's not the source of reality, it is reality. It would be no different than a form of specific Reality Warping. In the same way Reality Warping allows a person to manipulate nearly any aspect of reality, the same applies to Information Manipulation type 2.

Realistically, Information Type 2 is a type of Reality Warping and should probably be labelled as such, as verses with this type of Information Manipulation are made up of Data and Information and therefore, is just warping reality.

In the case of Concepts type 1, reality merely engages in the concepts they represent, such as engaging in the ideal of circleness. As such, they function on a more fundamental basis as they're completely independent of reality and therefore the information/data within it.

As for type 2, since they're involved in and dependant upon reality, they would be affected indirectly, though once again, in the same way they would be with a Reality Warper.

What if it is a source of reality? Such that it underlies concepts themselves? Would such kind of information be considered more abstract than that concept?

 

[Udlmaster]

What if it is a source of reality? Such that it underlies concepts themselves? Would such kind of information be considered more abstract than that concept?

It would function similar to a Type 2 Concept since information still makes up reality even if it is also the source of reality.

 

[Hellformer]

It would function similar to a Type 2 Concept since information still makes up reality even if it is also the source of reality.

Would such an information of space and time be a supportive evidence for Low 1-A?

• For more context, the entire construct exists as programmable information prior to its creation.
• The structure itself houses a "sub-structure" which is said to contain all of space and time of the verse.
• Anything beyond the sub-structure is said to be "non-place" or "emptiness".
• The structure and its information remains fine even if the sub-structure gets destroyed. And the sub-structure houses a Type 2 concept.

I apologise for asking too many questions but I'll be glad if I get the answers from knowledgeable people.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

This thread should be changed to "Questions and Answers."

I apologise for asking too many questions but I'll be glad if I get the answers from knowledgeable people.

Next time, create a thread in Questions and Answers rather than in Staff Discussion. Use staff Discussion only when you want to propose something that affects the wiki, along with your reasoning, so staff can decide whether to agree with you or not, rather than asking questions.

 

[Hellformer]

This thread should be changed to "Questions and Answers."

Next time, create a thread in Questions and Answers rather than in Staff Discussion. Use a staff Discussion only when you want to propose something that affects the wiki, along with your reasoning, so staff can decide whether to agree with you or not, rather than asking questions.

I was suggested by a staff member to make a staff thread. I wouldn't mind if this gets moved to Q&A.

 

[Udlmaster]

• For more context, the entire construct exists as programmable information prior to its creation.
• The structure itself houses a "sub-structure" which is said to contain all of space and time of the verse.
• Anything beyond the sub-structure is said to be "non-place" or "emptiness".
• The structure and its information remains fine even if the sub-structure gets destroyed. And the sub-structure houses a Type 2 concept.

Yeah, it would still be the same in this example.

Information is still a part of reality, even if it predated it, much like the Middle Ages idea of Quintessence or Aether, the thing which pre-existed the Universe but still makes it up.

 

[LazyDaoist]

Not really.

Fundamental type Information functions on the same level of reality, it's not the source of reality, it is reality. It would be no different than a form of specific Reality Warping. In the same way Reality Warping allows a person to manipulate nearly any aspect of reality, the same applies to Information Manipulation type 2.

Realistically, Information Type 2 is a type of Reality Warping and should probably be labelled as such, as verses with this type of Information Manipulation are made up of Data and Information and therefore, is just warping reality.

In the case of Concepts type 1, reality merely engages in the concepts they represent, such as engaging in the ideal of circleness. As such, they function on a more fundamental basis as they're completely independent of reality and therefore the information/data within it.

As for type 2, since they're involved in and dependant upon reality, they would be affected indirectly, though once again, in the same way they would be with a Reality Warper.

Info Type 2 question again

1. Cultivator can use and affect the Qi/energy in the verse, which is what creates everything in reality whether real or illusory so that should includes information and (supernatural) data, is this interacting/manipulating of Info type 2? 2. Altering the Dao of a universe and therefore imposing...

vsbattles.com

I asked this question before and haven't got a conclusive answer, would you say this is valid for info type 2 manip? tldr is the Heavenly Dao is akin to a programing protocol and changing it can reality warp the universe

Heavenly Dao should at least be Type 1 concept since it is independent from its universe, and is the source of Dharma/Law and Logos/Principle (things like physical law) which is omnipresent in its universe (so it would be Law Manip and Concept Type 2)

But the alteration of Dao can Reality Warp specific aspect, if thats what you mean

 

[Udlmaster]

Info Type 2 question again

1. Cultivator can use and affect the Qi/energy in the verse, which is what creates everything in reality whether real or illusory so that should includes information and (supernatural) data, is this interacting/manipulating of Info type 2? 2. Altering the Dao of a universe and therefore imposing...

vsbattles.com

I asked this question before and haven't got a conclusive answer, would you say this is valid for info type 2 manip? tldr is the Heavenly Dao is akin to a programing protocol and changing it can reality warp the universe

Seems to be to be a type of Reality Warping.

Manipulating the Real and Illusionary seems to be a type of Conceptual manipulation along with standard Reality Warping. It wouldn't be Information Manipulation based on what's in (1).

(2) seems to be using a simile based on how it can be used rather than it actually affecting real data and seems to be Type 1 Concept.

 

[LazyDaoist]

Seems to be to be a type of Reality Warping.

Manipulating the Real and Illusionary seems to be a type of Conceptual manipulation along with standard Reality Warping. It wouldn't be Information Manipulation based on what's in (1).

(2) seems to be using a simile based on how it can be used rather than it actually affecting real data and seems to be Type 1 Concept.

Well the real and illusory part is because the verse multiverse includes illusory universe like spiritual, dream, and video game/virtual reality

 

[Udlmaster]

Well the real and illusory part is because the verse multiverse includes illusory universe like spiritual, dream, and video game/virtual reality

Ahhh, well that does change some things.

It depends to what degree this illusionary universe is.

Is it maintained by a computer in the real world or is it a separate world like an Issekai anime plot?

 

[LazyDaoist]

Ahhh, well that does change some things.

It depends to what degree this illusionary universe is.

Is it maintained by a computer in the real world or is it a separate world like an Issekai anime plot?

they're separate universes, like the dream universe is a dream of a creator god that is the projection of the multiverse creator god

the energy in the verse is "between real and illusory" and it was said whether material reality or the fantasy/illusory world had to be related with energy

the argument for number 2 is even these illusory realms that includes virtual reality have the same 4 fundamental aspects that which is 道 Dao (at least type 1 concept) that is the source of 德 De (this might be the info 2 but its never clearly explained), 法 Dharma/Law, 理 Logos/Principle/Reason.

And information is only mentioned like these (in terms of power/cosmology)

At that moment, the Divine Creator lifted an arm, and suddenly the universe was reflected in his eyes. He bellowed,

“Try bearing the massive weight of the universe!”

With a point of his finger, the sky and earth vanished, and numerous images suddenly appeared and raced toward Meng Qi.

These images depicted the creation of the universe, detailing the birth and subsequent destruction of every bubble world, and every living being’s growth and subsequent death. Everything that had happened in the universe these hundreds of billions of years all came racing toward Meng Qi and Han Guang’s Dharmakayas.

This overwhelming assault of information could not be quantified. Whoever had to bear even 10% of it would be overwhelmed by the trauma and lose one’s self, turning into a walking corpse with a shattered spirit, and even the Arts of Eight-Nine would not be able to defend against it.

“The future is derived from all current states and information, and all current states and information are determined by the past. Therefore, if we don’t go back in time, we won’t be able to change the future...”Meng Qi stood with his hands behind his back, he was still thinking of a way to cross the river of predestination.

So if a verse doesn't treat information as a fundamental aspect does that mean they're immune to IM 2?

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @FinePoint

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[FinePoint]

@DontTalkDT @FinePoint

What do you think that we should do here?

Well, we both disagree with this proposal I think, but it might be worth getting more opinions on it.

 

[Hellformer]

Well, we both disagree with this proposal I think, but it might be worth getting more opinions on it.

This isn't a proposal, it's more of a question which has been answered.

 

[FinePoint]

This isn't a proposal, it's more of a question which has been answered.

You are correct, my apologies.

I will reword then: It seems we both agree on an answer, but it might be worth getting more opinions on it.