STAR WARS Canon Edition: Cosmology and a few things³

[Phsccarvalho]

Hello

Canon Cosmlogy

Basically this.

If I accept this, it will be turned into a page and linked to the verse page.

The cosmology page does not adapt to any character, except for the Force, which I will explain below.

Where it will be applied
In addition to the verse page, on the force page, any place that has "fundamental unity that sustains all creation" will lead to the cosmology page.

The Force

Firstly, there will be things that I will talk about here that are already accepted and are on the Force page, so use it as a reference.

4-D
Well, the Force is everything and is the fundamental unit that sustains all creation, which according to the cosmology proposed here is 2-C. In addition, the World between Worlds is one of the nexuses of the Force. With this accepted, a note will be placed that the force is 4D for this reason.

I know that metaphysical powers no longer receive dimensionality, but can I put this more for indexing? Since this is still present in many profiles.

Soul manipulation
According to the metaphysical aspects of the equalization page, the spiritual aspect could count as Soul Hax. I didn't include it at first because it was just that, a spiritual power without any further context.

But now we have more, besides the Force being a metaphysical power (literally defined as such) and a spiritual power, one of the nexuses of the Force is an entire dimension that is a spiritual world that knows all of space-time and connects the living and the dead. In addition, the ghosts/spirits of the Force manifest themselves in this way through the Force.

So soul manipulation would be added as part of the nature of the Force. Remember, this makes the Force operate/have this fundamental aspect and does not allow any user of it to directly affect someone's soul.

Vader

Space Survival (It is capable of surviving in space)

small edit:
I would like to change it by removing the "Explainations" (Disney and Legends) part from the Calculations part, placing it above it, like this.

Votes:

---

Agree: (2) @LephyrTheRevanchist (agrees with everything), @Theglassman12 (agrees with everything)

Neutral: (0)

Disagree: (0)

 

[Gonzalo]

I agree

 

[HammerStrikes219]

For the Vader part, that is only available with his suit on.

Without his suit and its life support systems, he will die.

Other than that particular part, the rest seems fine

 

[Phsccarvalho]

For the Vader part, that is only available with his suit on.

Without his suit and its life support systems, he will die.

Other than that particular part, the rest seems fine

Without the suit and life support he dies anywhere. The character is basically him and the suit since 99.99% of the time he is like this. We do not differentiate in the indexing.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Without the suit and life support he dies anywhere. The character is basically him and the suit since 99.99% of the time he is like this. We do not differentiate in the indexing.

That is true for the original trilogy events and all.

It is still best to label it as such given the fact we have a Non Standard Breathing page as a thing.

Non-Standard Breathing

Non-Standard Breathing is the ability to breathe in environments that baseline human beings would find hazardous to breathe in. This may be accomplished through the usage of gills or other physiological traits, equipment, creating air pockets, or otherwise finding methods to breathe in hazardous...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Therefore, Darth Vader will qualified for it as such

 

[Phsccarvalho]

That is true for the original trilogy events and all.

It is still best to label it as such given the fact we have a Non Standard Breathing page as a thing.

Non-Standard Breathing

Non-Standard Breathing is the ability to breathe in environments that baseline human beings would find hazardous to breathe in. This may be accomplished through the usage of gills or other physiological traits, equipment, creating air pockets, or otherwise finding methods to breathe in hazardous...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Therefore, Darth Vader will qualified for it as such

The thing is, surviving in the vacuum of space isn't just about being able to breathe or not. But I guess I can put it in a limited way, like the Saiyans in DB who can survive in space but still need to breathe.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The thing is, surviving in the vacuum of space isn't just about being able to breathe or not. But I guess I can put it in a limited way, like the Saiyans in DB who can survive in space but still need to breathe.

That is not the point I trying to make.

The point is, Space Survival and Non Standard Breathing with his standard equipment ie. His own suit is what enables him to survive Outer Space.

Also I am aware what Space Survival is about since I was there for its creation when DontTalk proposed its existence.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

OP makes sense, tho I'm not sure about the resistances.

@FinePoint @Reiner04 @Theglassman12 have a quick look here?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

OP makes sense, tho I'm not sure about the resistances.

@FinePoint @Reiner04 @Theglassman12 have a quick look here?

Actually that is a fair point on the resistance.

As Mind Probe is only used to probe minds as its name suggests.


I will put myself on neutral, leaning towards disagreeing with it as the Force Mind Probe was never stated to affect the soul last I checked

 

[Phsccarvalho]

OP makes sense, tho I'm not sure about the resistances.

@FinePoint @Reiner04 @Theglassman12 have a quick look here?

I mean, it is accepted that Force Powers have the same nature (CM2 and if I accept soul). If the character is resisting a conceptual power, he has to resist the conceptual part. For example, a character who resists EE at the soul level would have resistance to EE and soul hax, and not just resistance to EE.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Actually that is a fair point on the resistance.

As Mind Probe is only used to probe minds as its name suggests.


I will put myself on neutral, leaning towards disagreeing with it as the Force Mind Probe was never stated to affect the soul last I checked

Mind Probe is a Force Power, the Force powers are CM2. He knows, he has to resist the conceptual part to resist the power. Likewise, someone with EE/mind resistance has to resist the Soul part of a character who has. Soul EE and Soul mind hax.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Mind Probe is a Force Power, the Force powers are CM2. He knows, he has to resist the conceptual part to resist the power. Likewise, someone with EE/mind resistance has to resist the Soul part of a character who has. Soul EE and Soul mind hax.

“"The Force's influence over the minds of other beings can be a valuable tool in the right hands, but it can be easily abused as well. Those on the dark side have been known to use the Force to read the thoughts of other beings and, if necessary, search their minds for information. This process is known for being exceptionally painful for the subject undergoing the probe."

Luke directly say this apparently in the Secrets of the Jedi which means the Force ability affects the victim’s mind specifically.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also I don’t think using Nature of the Force is good to use for Force Power in general upon thinking about this further

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

For the Vader part, that is only available with his suit on.

Without his suit and its life support systems, he will die.

Other than that particular part, the rest seems fine

Space Survival via Suit
Simple

 

[Phsccarvalho]

“"The Force's influence over the minds of other beings can be a valuable tool in the right hands, but it can be easily abused as well. Those on the dark side have been known to use the Force to read the thoughts of other beings and, if necessary, search their minds for information. This process is known for being exceptionally painful for the subject undergoing the probe."

Luke directly say this apparently in the Secrets of the Jedi which means the Force ability affects the user’s mind specifically.

You don't understand... the power is at this fundamental level and it doesn't affect in this way. For example, a character with CM2 mind hax doesn't mean that he has mind hax in the person's concept, but rather that the power has this fundamental aspect. So he has to resist this aspect to resist the power. The spiritual aspect follows the same reasoning.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Also I don’t think using Nature of the Force is good to use for Force Power in general upon thinking about this further

This is already accepted, it is not a matter to be discussed.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

This is already accepted, it is not a matter to be discussed.

They already agreed on the Nature of the Force.

It is absolutely have to been discussed at this point as Jedi and Sith ain’t directly manipulating concepts and so on with the Force where it is not even stated.

Also it is more accurate to say the nature of the Force is a Type 2 concept and not concept manipulation for the Nature of the Force.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

“There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.”

Also don’t tried to overlook this as well.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

They already agreed on the Nature of the Force.

It is absolutely have to been discussed at this point as Jedi and Sith ain’t directly manipulating concepts and so on with the Force where it is not even stated.

Also it is more accurate to say the nature of the Force is a Type 2 concept and not concept manipulation for the Nature of the Force.

The Force is a concept, the Jedi manipulate the Force, obviously you know? This is all accepted, and it is not something to be discussed here. The Force has AE1 and you know "Concept manipulation" the name of the power speaks for itself. This is already accepted, stop derailing

 

[Phsccarvalho]

“There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.”

Also don’t tried to overlook this as well.

This has literally nothing to do with this crt. This is about hierarchy of metaphysical aspects and whether one can affect the other (Whether Cm can affect info and whether it can affect plot). It literally has nothing to do with this topic.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

This has literally nothing to do with this crt. This is about hierarchy of metaphysical aspects and whether one can affect the other (Whether Cm can affect info and whether it can affect plot). It literally has nothing to do with this topic.

It does when you mention the page directly in your OP.

“According to the metaphysical aspects of the equalization page, the spiritual aspect could count as Soul Hax. I didn't include it at first because it was just that, a spiritual power without any further context.”

That is basically relevant here for what is being discussed here.

Also you forget the most important thing, the Force provide the Jedi and Sith the abilities to affect living things physically as well.

There is no manner of conceptual manipulation when they use telekinesis on a organic or non organic being and so on.

Also are we really gonna say they can manipulate concepts with Jedi Mind Tricks when the name and ability in question target only the mind of any living being affected and all?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It does when you mention the page directly in your OP.

“According to the metaphysical aspects of the equalization page, the spiritual aspect could count as Soul Hax. I didn't include it at first because it was just that, a spiritual power without any further context.”

That is basically relevant here for what is being discussed here.

Also you forget the most important thing, the Force provide the Jedi and Sith the abilities to affect living things physically as well.

There is no manner of conceptual manipulation when they use telekinesis on a organic or non organic being and so on.

Also are we really gonna say they can manipulate concepts with Jedi Mind Tricks when the name and ability in question target only the mind of any living being affected and all?

This page on the metaphysical aspect talks about several things, not just one. I spoke about the qualification part. For example, in many verses the word concept may not exist, but if some metaphysical power in that verse fits the conceptual aspect, we "equalize" it. Just as sometimes the word/power Dao is equalized to concepts. The part you mentioned talks about something else and is more related to topics vs and not what I am suggesting.
-
Think of it like a fireball and a conceptual fireball. If both hit you you will burn, the second one will not burn the concept of your existence by default (until declared), it will only have the conceptual nature. You can resist a regular fireball with fire resistance, but you will only resist a conceptual fire if you resist the conceptual aspect of it.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Also are we really gonna say they can manipulate concepts with Jedi Mind Tricks when the name and ability in question target only the mind of any living being affected and all?

The nature of power is conceptual and not that they mind hax the concept of someone's existence.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

This page on the metaphysical aspect talks about several things, not just one. I spoke about the qualification part. For example, in many verses the word concept may not exist, but if some metaphysical power in that verse fits the conceptual aspect, we "equalize" it. Just as sometimes the word/power Dao is equalized to concepts. The part you mentioned talks about something else and is more related to topics vs and not what I am suggesting.
-
Think of it like a fireball and a conceptual fireball. If both hit you you will burn, the second one will not burn the concept of your existence by default (until declared), it will only have the conceptual nature. You can resist a regular fireball with fire resistance, but you will only resist a conceptual fire if you resist the conceptual aspect of it.

You are repeating things that I already aware of it and I am in complete disagreement with your logic on this part.

Again, we not gonna give some random Force User resistance to conceptual manipulation and soul manipulation when they are shown to being affected by the Force because they are powered by The Force

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You are repeating things that I already aware of it and I am in complete disagreement with your logic on this part.

Again, we not gonna give some random Force User resistance to conceptual manipulation and soul when they are shown to being affected by the Force because they are powered by The Force

If a conceptual power affects you, you need to resist the conceptual aspect even if that conceptual aspect does not make the power affect the concept of your existence, as in the example of the fireball. Force powers having the same aspect/nature is already accepted and is not something to be discussed because it is derailing. The thing about resistance is not that the Jedi are resisting a mind-hax that literally affects the concept of their existence, but rather that they are resisting a mind-hax that has this conceptual aspect.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

If a conceptual power affects you, you need to resist the conceptual aspect even if that conceptual aspect does not make the power affect the concept of your existence, as in the example of the fireball. Force powers having the same aspect/nature is already accepted and is not something to be discussed because it is derailing. The thing about resistance is not that the Jedi are resisting a mind-hax that literally affects the concept of their existence, but rather that they are resisting a mind-hax that has this conceptual aspect.

It seems you fail to completely grasp the contradiction here.

The Force users ain’t directly affecting the Force in any way because their power derived from the Force itself. They are applying the Force via physical means.

They not trying to manipulate the Force in this case. Just being empowered with the Force to affect any beings that in a physical sense makes more sense here.

There is nothing conceptual about any Force Powers in this case.


All they getting is resistances to mind manipulation and so on.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Either way, I will stop talking about that part as agree to disagree here

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It seems you fail to completely grasp the contradiction here.

The Force users ain’t directly affecting the Force in any way because their power derived from the Force itself. They are applying the Force via physical means.

They not trying to manipulate the Force in this case. Just being empowered with the Force to affect any beings that in a physical sense makes more sense here.

There is nothing conceptual about any Force Powers in this case.


All they getting is resistances to mind manipulation and so on.

The simple act of manipulating the Force is CM because the Force is a concept, a conceptual metaphysical power. Furthermore, it is living beings, such as sensitives themselves, who generate/create and feed the Force itself, that is, they generate/create and feed a conceptual metaphysical power. All of this is already accepted.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I think Hammer makes more sense here

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The simple act of manipulating the Force is CM because the Force is a concept, a conceptual metaphysical power. Furthermore, it is living beings, such as sensitives themselves, who generate/create and feed the Force itself, that is, they generate/create and feed a conceptual metaphysical power. All of this is already accepted.

You keep repeating it and I ignore the repeating part.

They don’t create the Force as you claimed here.

Generate the Force? The Midi Chlorians are used to form a connection to the Force, not create/feed/generate the Force as you claimed here.

After all, we have non Force users as well ie. Can’t use the Force itself despite having midi-chlorians as well.


Even Qui Gon made a comment about the Will of the Force being connected to the sentient being by the microscopic lifeforms as well.

Edit: Referencing to Midi Chlorians for the “they” part.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You keep repeating it and I ignore the repeating part.

They don’t create the Force as you claimed here.

Generate the Force? The Midi Chlorians are used to form a connection to the Force, not create/feed/generate the Force as you claimed here.

After all, we have non Force users as well ie. Can’t use the Force itself despite having midi-chlorians as well.


Even Qui Gon made a comment about the Will of the Force being connected to the sentient being by the microscopic lifeforms as well.

The pair I mentioned is already accepted in a CRT and is already applied. So it doesn't matter if you disagree with it, it is already accepted.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Think of it like a fireball and a conceptual fireball. If both hit you you will burn, the second one will not burn the concept of your existence by default (until declared), it will only have the conceptual nature. You can resist a regular fireball with fire resistance, but you will only resist a conceptual fire if you resist the conceptual aspect of it.

A "conceptual" fireball apparently manifesting debunks it being wholely conceptual (as then it'd be a physical entity) in first place and just resisting normal fire manip is good enough

 

[Deonment]

Think of it like a fireball and a conceptual fireball. If both hit you you will burn, the second one will not burn the concept of your existence by default (until declared), it will only have the conceptual nature. You can resist a regular fireball with fire resistance, but you will only resist a conceptual fire if you resist the conceptual aspect of it.

No, a mechanic/nature and how they are applied are two separate things, if you manipulate the laws of reality to increase the gravity in an area, you don't need to resist law manip to resist the increase in gravity, you just need LS or gravity resist enough to bypass the increase, same for here, the only thing that the fireball coming from manipulating a concept would do is make it so types of power null won't affect it.

And yes, it is accepted, I am not arguing against that, I am saying that nature is not enough to make the effect it has conceptual.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

No, a mechanic/nature and how they are applied are two separate things, if you manipulate the laws of reality to increase the gravity in an area, you don't need to resist law manip to resist the increase in gravity, you just need LS or gravity resist enough to bypass the increase, same for here, the only thing that the fireball coming from manipulating a concept would do is make it so types of power null won't affect it.

And yes, it is accepted, I am not arguing against that, I am saying that nature is not enough to make the effect it has conceptual.

But I'm not talking about using a mechanic to use a power, like this example.

In your example, it would be as if gravity manipulation itself were a law. Wouldn't resisting it (without using LS) have to resist the law?

Or something more abstract like magic. Like, it's x verse magic/spells are conceptual in general, wouldn't resisting some magic or spell mean resisting CM at some level?

 

[Deonment]

In your example, it would be as if gravity manipulation itself were a law. Wouldn't resisting it (without using LS) have to resist the law?

Or something more abstract like magic. Like, it's x verse magic/spells are conceptual in general, wouldn't resisting some magic or spell mean resisting CM at some level?

No, and it wouldn't, because you aren't directly manipulating their law/concept or what have you using said hax, you are creating an effect using the things

To give an example, if someone uses matter manip to cause lightning to strike someone (could be done in multiple ways, but that isn't wholly relevant here), you would only need resistance to electricity to resist the lightning, not resistance to matter manip, the same applies here, you are directly the force to probe a mind, but you are not affecting either the soul or concept of the target.

It boils down to you using A to do B, rather than affecting both A and B.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

No, and it wouldn't, because you aren't directly manipulating their law/concept or what have you using said hax, you are creating an effect using the things

To give an example, if someone uses matter manip to cause lightning to strike someone (could be done in multiple ways, but that isn't wholly relevant here), you would only need resistance to electricity to resist the lightning, not resistance to matter manip, the same applies here, you are directly the force to probe a mind, but you are not affecting either the soul or concept of the target.

It boils down to you using A to do B, rather than affecting both A and B.

But if lightning were a concept in itself, not that it was created from CM but rather that lightning itself is a concept in itself? Or a character who manipulates the concept of space-time and stops conceptual time, wouldn't he need to resist the CM aspect to resist stopping conceptual time?

From my experience in vsbattle, this is something I sometimes saw, that resisting a power that is conceptual in itself would make the character resist CM, even if the power didn't affect the character's concept, especially because not every CM power does this.

But since this deals with patterns, I'll wait for @Theglassman12 opinions, because I think he deals with verses with CM.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Is the Disney Canon's Mortis affected by any of this?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Is the Disney Canon's Mortis affected by any of this?

No, Mortis is not on the blog yet, and the profiles are from the legends continuity.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I see, but if it was eventually added, would it be affected? For instance, would it be superior to the rest of the Disney Canon cosmology or act as an additional space-time? I can't remember which statements about Mortis are EU exclusive.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I see, but if it was eventually added, would it be affected? For instance, would it be superior to the rest of the Disney Canon cosmology or act as an additional space-time? I can't remember which statements about Mortis are EU exclusive.

The most I could find about Mortis was that it was a different plane of existence, but nothing about size. So I don't know, I'd have to check further.