Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)

[TheHyperGuy]

To start this off, yes I'm aware of the click bait type title, but I am 100% confident in saying that and proving why, and to preface, this is my FIRST forum post, so If i need to work on some things or change things for the future, let me know and I'll fix that up! Also I don't know who to tag for this.

I also want to say that I'm unaware how much is accepted in this wiki when it comes to the cosmology of the Tensura verse, however since Veldanava still has a 2A rating, I assume the multiversal tier is still accepted for the verse.

My main contention with the verse starts at this blog, which I assume was accepted at least most of it. I only want to focus on the main parts that "prove" it's a multiverse.

The biggest problems plaguing this article is that it is grossly misleading and ignores major context of volume 11 chapter 5 of the light novel.

Time loops/cycles​

Before I critique the blog/article, I want to first talk about the goal of chapter 5 in volume 11

Goal: Save Hinata and Rimuru

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

Chloe's time loops tended to all work out in somewhat similar fashion, although there would often be disparities here and there. Apparently, the death of Hinata was always the key event, and the same was true this time as well.
This time as well…? I die every single go-round, don't I?
…
Up to now, every time loop involved Rimuru leavıng everyone's life for one reason or another. This time, however, he was still intact when the jump happened. Hinata knew that, and therefore, she expected this to conclude in some new, different way. There were a lot of differences from before, and--as Hinata decided -maybe they'd be able to Put an end to Chloe's looping for good.
"...You know him. You can't help but hold out hope, no matter how illogical, that he'll figure something out.”
"Right? So if We can get back to that time period, Rimuru will still be there. This time, I'm sure we can all survive-and we need to figure out who keeps killing him and you!
Page 314/315

So that sets a pretty simple goal, fix the timeline, save Rimuru and Hinata.

Now that should've told people that the main reason behind the looping, and Hinata brought up the point;

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

Otherwise, you’d have multiple versions of yourself across multiple worlds, and everything Hinata and her friends were doing was inherently pointless. The idea that she’d find salvation in some worlds and doom in others wasn’t something Hinata was willing to accept. That’s why she wanted to end Chloe’s looping and save the world for good this time—even if meant sacrificing herself along the way.
Page 324

Now the blog claimed this was an appeal to emotion, but that doesn't really matter nor does it hold and I'll explain that in a bit, so let's dive into the main argument.

Chloe is a time traveler, and she's trapped inside of countless/infinite loop, where every time she dies, she travels to the past, but each of these pasts is a completely different timeline...

There's one main parts I want to focus on, "...but each of these pasts is a completely different timeline..."

Now, when you first look at the chapter and read it, this claim is convincing, but that completely ignores a key piece of context that was confirmed, and that is that Chloe has been looping in the same timeline/axis.

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

So Hinata silently listened as Chloe continued. Apparently, her time travel always took place in the same era, in the same axis of time those were likely the limitations of her skill. Exactly where she was taken depended on the timing of her out-of-control episodes.
Page 312

Now when regarding these "separate timelines" claim, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a parallel universe that exists now because of the looping, but just referring to a cycle/loop that did happen, but doesn't exist anymore.

There are statements that refer to these timelines just as the cycles or loops themselves, not as separate timelines;

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

In the previous cycle, Hinata apparently died in the Forest of Jura.
Page 312

Apparently, Chloe didn’t receive a spirit but an embodiment of her own powers from the future. Even more unbelievably, this embodiment was sentient. "…I think I must’ve died at some point in the future, so I guess I just repeat this process of planting that version of me in myself."
"So the Dwelling is where you learn of this process? Like, every time in the cycle?"
Page 311

"Right. Rimuru introduced him as his friend in this cycle, but he was definitely an enemy the last time."
Page 316

During the last cycle, after rescuing the children, Rimuru used Spatial Motion to return to Tempest. He didn’t run into Hinata, missing her by only a few seconds at most. By this point, he had beaten up a lot of the otherworlders who came to Tempest, showing the nations bordering the Forest of Jura that he was no one to mess with.
Page 312

“Forget all your other memories. Right now, what we need to do is follow our footsteps from last time. In order to win Luminus’s trust, we need to talk to her about the future—but don’t talk about the future results from this time around. If we just retrace the route we took last time, we’re bound to reach the future from the current cycle.”
Page 319

Up to now, every time loop involved Rimuru leaving everyone’s life for one reason or another. This time, however, he was still intact when the jump happened. Hinata knew that, and therefore, she expected this to conclude in some new, different way. There were a lot of differences from before, and—as Hinata decided—maybe they’d be able to put an end to Chloe’s looping for good.
Page 314/315

“'It sounds like a lot changed with this loop. I wonder what caused that…?'”
Page 315

I think that's sufficient. That proves that volume 11 refers to them specifically as Loops or cycles, however in volume 12, they were referred to as timelines;

Spoiler: Volume 12, Chapter 1

But—hey—maybe in this other time line, he killed me after I resurrected him, which then set him off in a violent rage. Because honestly, that scenario gave me some warm fuzzies.
Page 39

…but I presumed that was where her journey back through time began. However, that still didn’t adequately explain how she arrived at Chloe’s time line. Maybe there was a chance I did something to engineer that?
Page 43

We already know Chloe/Chronoa was looping in the same timeline, so the second quote is just referring to a cycle/loop. The first quote also refers to a loop, since we know rimuru's death occurred when Chloe was looping in the same axis of time;

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

So Hinata silently listened as Chloe continued. Apparently, her time travel always took place in the same era, in the same axis of time—those were likely the limitations of her skill. Exactly where she was taken depended on the timing of her out-of-control episodes.
In the previous cycle, Hinata apparently died in the Forest of Jura.
...
"Mr. Tempest had died, and Veldora got revived—"
"Huh? Rimuru died? Who did it and how? He’s practically unkillable."
"Um, well, with this cycle, my memories between when I received myself in the Dwelling and when I get taken to the past are working out pretty differently. In fact, this is actually the first time Rimuru was still alive when it happened to me."
Page 312

So clearly timeline just refers to these loops, so bringing up statements like this;

Spoiler: Volume 12, Chapter 1

…!! A new possibility has arisen. If the powers of the unique skill Time Travel, when merged with the ultimate skill Yog-Sothoth, allow the subject Chloe Aubert to control time itself…then Analyze and Assess will always fail, since it cannot evaluate phenomena separate from its own time line.
Page 77

Doesn't prove the existence of a separate universe or space/time that's parallel to this in terms of being a completely different "timeline".

This is consistent when we take into consideration about what Chapter 5 in volume 11 is trying to prove.

Single World Theory​

The next step is to prove that the cosmology follows Single world theory as opposed to Many world interpretation or a multiversal theory.

In the blog, this is stated;

Cosmology follows the Many-Universe Theory, each parallel universes branch from each plane of existence constantly.

The user most likely stated this, with no valid evidence to support that it was confirmed. If fuse is referencing these theories, then surely he'd confirm the multiverse theory being correct right? Right?

Well he does the opposite. In volume 11 chapter 5, Hinata and Chloe are brainstorming theories regarding their situation and what could or could not be true. That's why they are saying IF multiverse theory is correct then two Chloes existing doesn't cause any issues and both can be at the same time, but that's just not the case.

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

If advanced theories about multiverses were true, and there are parallel universes for every plane of existence, then maybe two Chloes at once would be all right—but what if there weren’t?
Page 324

So is it possible for two Chloes to exist? No;

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

It seemed, once everything was said and done, that the 'one single world' theory was correct—and the world thus would never allow contradictions.
…Well, not quite. It’s not that contradictions are verboten—it’s that anything that causes the world to unravel is.
Page 324

Now Chloe's time was ending. The moment had arrived.
"I didn't tell you this until now, but I think I'm gonna disappear soon."
"What are you talking about , Chloe?' Luminus asked. 'What do you mean by that?"
...
"Well..." Chloe began to reveal what she'd kept hidden this whole time. It was, in effect, what Hinata had secretly been surmising. Before much longer, Leon-the Leon that Hinata knew of-would appear. It seemed, apparently, that Leon and Chloe came to this world at the same time, and therefore you'd have the rather odd situation of two Chloes existing simultaneously.
Page 323/324

“Well, Chloe, are you going to lose consciousness soon, then? That’s probably the result of the same person existing in multiples along the same time line. I think your theory is correct, Hinata."
"Yes. And the new Chloe, the one about to be born, is the one that’ll eventually get thrown all the way back to the past.”
Page 325

"With Chloe’s consciousness now gone, Hinata was by herself."
"Once Chloe—the main Chloe—disappears, I’m sure Chronoa is going to wreak havoc. But I didn’t expect this much havoc…"
Page 325/326

Report. It is impossible for multiples of the same soul to exist at the same point in space and time. It is believed that the resulting rejection sent one of the souls into the past.
Page 334

And let's not forget what caused this whole thing;

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 4

-and the next moment, Hinata's body began to glow, the light seemingly flowing into Chloe through her fingers. Was I seeing this right? Because not even Luminus was reacting at all. It was like time was stopping...
"N-no!" chloe screamed. "This can't be happening! it's too early! Why?!"
"Uh, Chloe?"
The moment I tried calling for Chloe...she vanished, almost like she was never there at all.
Volume 11, chapter 4-page 288

So it's clear that two Chloes cannot exist in the same time. This should eliminate the multiverse theory being true, as opposed to the single world theory, right?

In fact, it's confirmed that Hinata's theory, which is;

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

Instead, the idea of the world being remade was more tangible.
Volume 11, chapter 5-page 324

Is correct, in fact it did so four separate occasions;

Spoiler: Volume 11, Chapter 5

It seemed, once everything was said and done, that the 'one single world' theory was correct—and the world thus would never allow contradictions.
Page 324

Hinata was relieved that her guess was correct, but at the same time, the future began to look much gloomier to her.
Page 324

"Well, Chloe, are you going to lose consciousness soon, then? That’s probably the result of the same person existing in multiples along the same time line. I think your theory is correct, Hinata.”
Page 325

Now that her theory was proven correct, Hinata was racked by intense anxiety and pressure.
Page 325

The theory was confirmed three times by a third person narrative explanation, no character pov, and second by Luminus herself, a third party perspective.

This should confirm without a shadow of a doubt, that Hinata's theory of the world being remade, as opposed to a multiverse existing, is the truth to the cosmology.
Even if you decide to bring up the fallacy in the blog;

Hinata says that such a thing as the existence of multiple parallel worlds is unacceptable, but that's merely an appeal to emotion, where she's refusing to believe the existence of parallel universes purely because she thinks its too unfair since "her efforts would be in vain".

This should be completely disputed by the fact that the theory was proven true.
Her emotion was a valid response, since the whole goal of trying to correct the timeline, would make no sense if there were parallel worlds where those cycles existed and it was true.

But here's the biggest issue-

Velgrynd's Interdimensional Journey​

In volume 17, chapter 2, we get a story on Velgrynd's journey throughout the universe, depends if you take the OTL as truth, between dimensions that DO in fact exist.

Volume 16 sort of gives us a teaser about these other dimensions which house "parallel worlds";

Spoiler: Chapter 16, Prologue

Then, at long last, humanity was born, its fate interlocked with a parallel world in another dimension.
Page 13

Now the term "parallel worlds" is later disputed and replaced with the term, "other world";

Spoiler: Volume 17, Chapter 2

...there was no such thing as parallel worlds, but there were so-called "other worlds," residing in alternate dimensions.
Page 64

Their origins and rules of nature were clearly divergent enough that one couldn’t call them parallel worlds...
Page 118

This proves the consistency of Parallel worlds not existing in replacement of "Other worlds", so it's proven that other worlds exist in these alternate/isolated or "self-enclosed" dimensions.

The biggest problem facing my premise, is the existence of these dimensions since they were stated and implied to be disconnected temporally and spatially, which would imply they are completely separate space/times.

But that can't be, right? Volume 11 states and confirms that single world theory is the truth, so other space/times shouldn't exist right? Well, it's still not a multiverse.

The existence of separate space/times DO NOT confirm a multiverse since the entire point of the Universe level tiering systems, one has to prove the size of these space/times as universal.

3-A: Universe level
Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space at least equivalent in size to the observable universe via an omnidirectional explosion that covers the entire space, alternately create or significantly affect a 3-D universe or a pocket dimension of comparable size...

Low 2-C: Universe level+
Characters or objects whose power is uncountably infinitely greater than the prior tiers. That is to say, they can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that exceed lesser objects by an uncountably infinite margin. An example of this is 4-dimensional spacetime continuums of universal size, but this can be generalized to any 4-dimensional structure of a similar scope.

The reason why I bring this up is because the tiering system specifically mentions that in order to be considered a universal level tier, you have to have a universe level sized space or space/time in order for you to qualify for said tiers. Even if the multiverse tier doesn't specify, how can you jump from one tier to the next without qualifying for the terminology of a previous tier?

If that was the case, me creating five office sized space/time continuums would be enough for low multiversal. Obviously that isn't the case, unless that somehow was changed.

So we first need to figure out the size of these space/times in order to even qualify the verse as multiversal, and the issue is, there is no confirmed size of dimensions, and this wiki already agreed to this in the TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 As far as I'm aware.

So in light of that, do I really need to continue? Well, I'll throw a bone to the community with this, we know at least ONE of these dimensions hold a galactic empire, which more or less confirms at least a galaxy sized space in order for that to be the case;

Spoiler: Volume 17, Chapter 2

There was a fleet commander serving a galactic empire.
Page 64

So galaxy sized being the largest is, good I guess!

I also would like to address the use of volume 22 where Yuuki states that the light spheres were universes;

Spoiler: Volume 22, Chapter 3

"Hmm, I've been observing it for a while and noticed something, didn't that rainbow-colored sphere
swell up and disappear there earlier? I think that's probably one world, a universe."
"Universe?"
"One world—..."
Page 208

The issue with this, is it's just guesswork.

Yuuki also hypothesized that time didn't flow in the subspace but then was later corrected by the narrative;

Spoiler: Volume 22, Chapter 3

"It seems like even time doesn't flow in this place."
"Huh?"
"Eh?"
This is the answer to Laplace's question from earlier. Yuuki isn't sure, but there's no other way to
explain it.
...
Strictly speaking, time does flow. However, since there's no way to observe it, Yuuki guesses that
"time doesn't flow" or "it flows very slowly" based on his own fatigue level and the fact that he
doesn't get hungry. Yuuki can't interfere with the "information particles" and can't observe them.
So everything is just guesswork...
Page 208/209

So utilizing Yuuki as a credible source isn't reasonable as it was already proven that he doesn't actually know.

I also want to point out that not once in the entire series, other than mistranslations, has a statement inferred the existence of multiple universes. So I'll address those and other claims.

Addressing Contradictory Statement​

The only one I know I need to address is this;

Space was a big place, but not as large as the universe they’d come from.
Volume 17, chapter 2-page 173 OTL

This the OTL version of the infamous slime reader translation of;

The universe is vast, but not as vast as the other worlds.
Slime reader

So which is correct?

The kanji used is Uchū宇宙 which can mean universe, cosmos or space.

In both translations, the kanji is translated fine, however their meanings are completely different. So when it comes to what it means, we have to figure out what it translates to using the context we already know;

• There are no other universes since the verse cannot be a multiverse proven in volume 11.
• We know the existence of alternate dimensions which is where Cornu and the rest of the mystics are from.
• We know they were setting up outposts in space, in volume 17, chapter 2, they were targeting the earth.
• Other universes were never stated in the entire series.

I lean towards the Otl being more accurate except for the use of "universe". In context, this should just be regarding the dimension that the mystics came from since that was already made known in volume 16;

Spoiler: Volume 16, Prologue

Once, there was another dimension, but one of the other three had destroyed them and the dimension they came from-
Page 11

So this "universe" in volume 17 can be replaced by Dimension since we have that already confirmed to be the place where Mystics, Cryptid and even Insectors came from.

Considering what @Apotheosis69 Translated "宇宙は広いが、異界ほどではない." To = "The universe is incredibly vast, but not as vast as other worlds."
Couldn't this equally be translated to = "Space is incredibly vast, but not as vast as other worlds."?

The reason I ask this, is because those two sentences, although using the same kanji, mean vastly different things.
So now the other context comes into play.

The term "Universe" cannot be applied because, like I've already discussed and brought to question, there cannot be other universes existing due to what volume 11, chapter 5, confirms. The only terms used in the series to referred to these spaces that other worlds exist in are dimensions, not universes. Not only that, but there is never a single statement in the series, other than vol 22 from what Yuuki guessed, that implies the existence of multiple universes.

So at best this is a mistranslation by not only Slime Reader, the OTL but the vsbw translator as well, and at worst this is a outlier statement. I lean towards being a mistranslation considering the fact that the OTL uses a correct translation of the word Uchū宇宙, but also uses the word "universe" instead of dimension or "Other world" since either could be used and is backed by context.

If I missed any other statements that contradict this, let me know.

Edit: My main contention is arguing that if we accept these other spaces are called universe in tensura, it doesnt mean it actually is the size of a universe, and I explained that in these replies.
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179394
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179000

Conclusion​

So simply put, the verse cannot be a multiverse considering what Volume 11, chapter 5, was written to achieve and explain. Volume 17 doesn't dispute this interpretation since it never added information that would contradict there not being other universes or prove it's a multiverse.

Following the evidence and Arguments I set forth, the Cosmology would essentially be the Subspace encompassing many dimensions that are self-enclosed or isolated/alternate. These dimensions vary in size all the way up to the size of a galaxy. They each have their own time axis or flow of time disconnected from other dimensions or space/times, and are governed by separate laws. Inside each dimension, there are unknown amount of worlds/planets, stars and celestial bodies. In the main Space/time, we have the Cardinal world, which is a planet (Yes I'm willing to discuss this but that's not the topic), where the series takes place.

So the following pages/profiles will need to be revised if this gets accepted;

• Veldanava
• The Voice of the World
• Tensura Cosmology page

That should do it! Again, let me know if there are things I need to Improve upon when it comes to making CRTs!

Agree: - @HeavenlyVillain2, @SatellaTheWoE, @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, @RitsuØ1 (On timeline/cycle), @Tatsumi504 (On timeline/cylce), @EJSenpai, @JagerManifest, @Vietthai96

Neutral: - @EldemadeDityjon, @PrimeHydra64 (On the Timeline/cycle), @RitsuØ1

Disagree: - @PrimeHydra64, @Re5yh, @Tatsumi504 (Not being a multiverse), @Ultimuru, @Amalyris

 

[Frey_Starlight]

another bloodbath crt for tensura downgrade. following

 

[Compsito]

Let's see how this ends

 

[HeavenlyVillain2]

Yang Kai Victims, agree with the downgrade

 

[Robo432343]

Agree with downgrading the verse to 11-C

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Im neutral on the timelines/cycle debacle but we can debate that later.

Yuuki is a reliable source.​

Ill first state this, Yuuki in-verse is considered a genius who has been researching the laws of the world ever since he got to the cardinal world. Considering he is the person who told Rimuru that the world they came from is a material world, the Cardinal world is a semi-spiritual one and that demons and spirits come from a spiritual world.


Also, the narrator even confirmed that his guess was right right after so it invalidates that point. (needs to be translated).

Velgrynd Situation​

To get to those ''Other Worlds'', She has to Transcend/Go beyond Time and Space to get to the Gap in Dimensions to then go to the different worlds. The single world statement refers to one identical world but many different worlds. I also believe that dimension is just an another way for Fuse to say universe due to the translation of ''Other-Dimensional Worlds'' to say that they are not in dimensions rather that they are dimensions.

No Multiverse?​

Saying that there is no mention of multiple universes means that their is no multiverse is fallacy in and of itself. There have been many mentions of their being Many ''Worlds'' created by Veldanava that in verse are heavily implied to be universes when the context supports it. That is also implying that the World that Rimuru, Yuuki and Hinata come from isn't a universe but just a planet which isn't really true considering that they follow different fundamental laws.

This also proves that there isn't a single universe (Second One):

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

bump x2 Can I get help translating these raws?

vsbattles.com

Majorly disagree with the rest of the post.

Edit: In volume 22 alone, the narrator calls him a genius THREE TIMES! So it invalidates most of the post.

 

[SweetDao]

That is also implying that the World that Rimuru, Yuuki and Hinata come from isn't a universe but just a planet which isn't really true considering that they follow different fundamental laws.

Nothing stop a planet-sized area to operates on different laws tho.

 

[Robo432343]

Nothing stop a planet-sized area to operates on different laws tho.

tensura does not have planet sized areas having different laws

 

[SweetDao]

tensura does not have planet sized areas having different laws

Maybe, maybe not, I'm just saying it's possible so that point isn't really a point.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

this is an insane thread to be informed of. welp, guess i'll get to reading, and will be following.

knew the cycle stuff would probably get covered again by the supporters sooner or later but..

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Nothing stop a planet-sized area to operates on different laws tho.

Only ''Other Worlds'' have different laws. The OP is saying that the cosmology is just one universe with multiple smaller space-times which have planets in them. Which is weird because that implies that earth isn't in a universe just a pocket one the size of a galaxy? Also, would be weird if the planets in the Galactic Empire World ran on different laws considering they would have to adapt to these new laws every time they conquered a planet and need to make new ships to get off them.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Following.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I disagree with Yuuki not being reliable, and due to the argument offered above by Hydra I have thought to take the stance of disagreeing with the no multiverse portion from the OP as well.

Other portions I shall wait for other arguments from those more knowledgeable to see whether I agree or not.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Will check it out later but I was about to nuke cycle 2-A stuff in near future. Let's see if the thread got same reasons or different POV. Neutral for now.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Ill first state this, Yuuki in-verse is considered a genius who has been researching the laws of the world ever since he got to the cardinal world. Considering he is the person who told Rimuru that the world they came from is a material world, the Cardinal world is a semi-spiritual one and that demons and spirits come from a spiritual world.


Also, the narrator even confirmed that his guess was right right after so it invalidates that point. (needs to be tranlated).

Yuuki being a genius doesn't mean in this particular situation he is correct, as I've just quoted that he was corrected by the narrative;

"It seems like even time doesn't flow in this place (talking about subspace)."
...
Strictly speaking, time does flow. However, since there's no way to observe it, Yuuki guesses that "time doesn't flow" or "it flows very slowly" based on his own fatigue level and the fact that he doesn't get hungry.

This was the narrative correcting Yuuki's original statement that time doesn't flow in subspace. When you bring up the fact that the narrative stated his guess was correct, he stated multiple different things prior to the confirmation, not just that time doesn't flow, such as;

"hmm, I've been observing for a while and noticed something, didn't that rainbow-colored sphere swell up and disappear there earlier? I think that's probably one world, a universe."
"Universe?"
"One world-..."
"In that sphere, time is flowing, It seems that a time flow occurs around it due to the aftereffects, but I can't observe it..."

Which directly refers to the narrative saying;

Yuuki can't interfere with the "information particles" and can't observe them. So everything is guesswork, but he fully demonstrated his genius and came up with the right answer.
But that doesn't mean anything since there's no way to return...
"then, is this one of those rainbow-colored light spheres the world we were in?"

The right answer was referring to his guess about the light spheres being worlds and having flows of time, not the subspace itself being void of time. Even if the narrative was saying his comment about time not flowing in subspace, that would be contradicted by the fact it corrected that mistake and stated there was a flow of time which Yuuki guessed wrong, so still, Yuuki in this particular instance, is not credible.
So the "right answer" is either that its a world, or universe, or that time flows in the light sphere. There's no telling what the narrative is confirming, but we can't take the term "universe" seriously here since there isn't any major evidence to support that being the case.

Velgrynd Situation​

To get to those ''Other Worlds'', She has to Transcend/Go beyond Time and Space to get to the Gap in Dimensions to then go to the different worlds. The single world statement refers to one identical world but many different worlds. I also believe that dimension is just an another way for Fuse to say universe due to the translation of ''Other-Dimensional Worlds'' to say that they are not in dimensions rather that they are dimensions.

She also has no control over when and where she goes. It was even stated to be complete chance/miracle, so using that means nothing cause all she's doing is interdimensional travel.

Spoiler: Volume 17, Chapter 2

Velgrynd traversed all of them-but not by her own free will; rather, she simply took the path she was guided to.
Page 64

Spoiler: Volume 21, Chapter 4

Velgrynd achieved it, but it was an exception by a combination of coincidence and miracle.

These other worlds in question are planets that she travels to in these other dimensions.

I already gave evidence that Other worlds are in these alternate dimension in the OP, but these other worlds she goes to all have implications of being planets, not whatever you are thinking they are.

Spoiler: Volume 17, Chapter 2

The first place she came to was a large landmass on one planet or another...
Page 61
...
In a more magic-oriented world, there was the vizier of a small kingdom.
Page 64
...
In a magic-less realm, there was a globe-trotting swindler.
Page64/65
...
In a civilized world, there was a scientist living in poverty.
Page 65

All these would refer back to this paragraph;

Spoiler: Volume 17, Chapter 2

Indeed, a wealth of civilizations could intermix in the physical worlds contained within vast spiritual realms. They could look familiar, all magic and swordfighting, or they could be bereft of magicules and locked away from all types of spells. Civilizations could be driven by a thing called science, and some of the less common realms featured human beings transformed into machines. Some worlds were small enough that a fully unleashed True Dragon could wipe them from existence; others were wastelands, fought over constantly by angels and demons with the powers of awakened demon lords.
Page 64

So clearly, the context of "world" in these instances are referring to the planets in these alternate dimensions.

Also saying dimension = universe here, is just claiming something without evidence of that being the case. We also have to realize, world doesn't mean Universe in majority of the cases, the dimensions are called worlds sometimes too, but the term Universe is hardly ever implied or stated.

No Multiverse?​

Saying that there is no mention of multiple universes means that their is no multiverse is fallacy in and of itself. There have been many mentions of their being Many ''Worlds'' created by Veldanava that in verse are heavily implied to be universes when the context supports it. That is also implying that the World that Rimuru, Yuuki and Hinata come from isn't a universe but just a planet which isn't really true considering that they follow different fundamental laws.

This also proves that there isn't a single universe (Second One):

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

bump x2 Can I get help translating these raws?

vsbattles.com

I brought that point up as secondary evidence, not primary. Considering that there is no mention of multiple universes, should add onto the defense that there is no multiverse with the primary evidence I have listed.

There have been many mentions of their being Many ''Worlds'' created by Veldanava that in verse are heavily implied to be universes when the context supports it.

And what context is that? I have plenty of scans and statements of proving the opposite, and I already gave you a couple in the last point.

That is also implying that the World that Rimuru, Yuuki and Hinata come from isn't a universe but just a planet which isn't really true considering that they follow different fundamental laws.

They came from a planet, inside a dimension, with different laws. That was already hinted and implied in volume 17 that it's the dimensions themselves or the realms that have the difference in laws.

This also proves that there isn't a single universe (Second One):

Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light.
The correlation between space and time was beyond Mai's understanding. Furthermore, the probability of being able to arrive at the time and place where her beloved brother was alive was infinitesimal.

This isn't really a defeater. This is quite an odd statement to have since "same world's universe" could equally imply that all the worlds share one universe, and that universe is what's being explained.

And I could use the same argument in my OP for the translation issue, it's an outlier at best.

I also wanted to add something as I just found this when rereading some parts;

Spoiler: Volume 21, Chapter 4

In the subspace, there is always a phase fluctuation. It is not predictable, and if you are caught in it, it is impossible to predict what kind of other dimensional space you will be transported to.
Even the flow of time is distorted in this other world, so that even if you had 'Spatial Domination', it would not be realistic to return to the same point from where you were jumped.
Velgrynd achieved it, but it was an exception by a combination of coincidence and miracle.
It would have been better if he had been transported to another dimension where human beings inhabit, but it would not be surprising if he had been transported to the end of the universe where there is nothing, or to the middle of the great destruction before life was born.
No matter how spiritual life forms may be, survival in such a place is hopeless

Other world here obviously refers to subspace and the interesting thing about this, is jumping from subspace can cause serious issues, such as transporting yourself in a dimension where humans are or to the end of the universe.

Why would jumping from subspace, the gap between dimensions that supposedly encompass all of these alternate dimensions, put you to the end of THE universe, wouldn't it just be "a" universe? Even if that's semantical, the argument still stands because if there were multiple universe, which you claim are these dimensions, that means jumping from subspace shouldn't result in jumping to the end of a universe, but the end of a dimension or edge of dimension since dimension and universe are being implied to be different things here.

So we might need a translator on this, it was a few pages behind the solar system anti-feat.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

I disagree with Yuuki not being reliable, and due to the argument offered above by Hydra I have thought to take the stance of disagreeing with the no multiverse portion from the OP as well.

Other portions I shall wait for other arguments from those more knowledgeable to see whether I agree or not.

Already made a long reply to his arguments, not saying Yuuki in general is unreliable, but in this instance about this specific thing, he is.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Now when regarding these "separate timelines" claim, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a parallel universe that exists now because of the looping, but just referring to a cycle/loop that did happen, but doesn't exist anymore.

if this was true wouldn't it mean that the current timeline should cease to exist since chronoa is still time traveling?
Following

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Plus the author said yuuki couldn't tell if time was flowing because he can't interact with info particles but he still more could observe time when the worlds exploded ,so that shouldn't be enough to demote his credibility

 

[Lycoris4812]

I'm only going to say some stuff cause I'm lazy.

Now, when you first look at the chapter and read it, this claim is convincing, but that completely ignores a key piece of context that was confirmed, and that is that Chloe has been looping in the same timeline/axis.

---

So Hinata silently listened as Chloe continued. Apparently, her time travel always took place in the same era, in the same axis of time those were likely the limitations of her skill. Exactly where she was taken depended on the timing of her out-of-control episodes.

I believe this is a mistranslation.

Chloe would always travel back to the same era. Perhaps that was the limit of the time leap. As for the location she would be in, it seemed to be dependent on when Chloe lost control of her power. ~ Slime Reader

それからヒナタは、クロエの話を黙って耳にする。クロエが飛ばされる時間軸は、決まって同じ時代だったらしい。恐らくそれが、時間跳躍の限界なのだろう。飛ばされる場所は、クロエの力が暴走するタイミングによって異なる。

Need it translated properly, but it seems that its not that shes going back in the past of the same timeline, but that she's going to the same period of time. Also contradicted by how the other timeline, where Rimuru died, was in a different axis of time.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

if this was true wouldn't it mean that the current timeline should cease to exist since chronoa is still time traveling?
Following

This was answered when Luminas stored Chloe's soul in the Arc, which allowed chronoa to exist with chloe.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

agree with the downgrade

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

This was answered when Luminas stored Chloe's soul in the Arc, which allowed chronoa to exist with chloe.

This doesn't answer the question,if the world is being remade everytime she timetravel, the moment chronoa went into the past everything should have been remade but thats not the case here

 

[TheHyperGuy]

I believe this is a mistranslation.

I really don't like the idea of the OTL being discredited as much as the community is doing that, but even then it's backed contextually.

Also time axis kanji is present -> 時間軸 time axis; time basis; timeline. So slime reader not having that in nor even the word timeline, clearly shows a biased translation.

Edit:

それからヒナタは、クロエの話を黙って耳にする。クロエが飛ばされる時間軸は、決まって同じ時代だったらしい。恐らくそれが、時間跳躍の限界なのだろう。飛ばされる場所は、クロエの力が暴走するタイミングによって異なる。

Hinata then silently listens to Chloe's story. It seems that the time axis to which Chloe is sent to is always the same era. Perhaps that is the limit of time leap. The place to which she is sent depends on the timing of the outburst of Chloe's power.

This is using Deepl, so the translation doesn't seem to be much different from the OTL

Also contradicted by how the other timeline, where Rimuru died, was in a different axis of time.

That would just be referring back to the argument I made in the OP that cylces = timelines or time axis in this case, but those two phrases are interchangeable.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

This doesn't answer the question,if the world is being remade everytime she timetravel, the moment chronoa went into the past everything should have been remade but thats not the case here

Which part are you referring to specifically? Because, even if you try to discredit the idea of the world being remade, you still have to tackle the fact it was confirmed on multiple occasions.

We also know there are paradoxes such as the mask given to chloe and shizu, so I'll reread the chronoa stuff to see what I can come up with, but you also have to know she is a manas, not just a soul of chloe now, she should be held to a different standard.

 

[Robo432343]

you're not allowed to use OTL
so the entire OTL argument is gone...

 

[Tempestdragon6]

A lot of invalid vote huh

 

[Lycoris4812]

I really don't like the idea of the OTL being discredited as much as the community is doing that, but even then it's backed contextually.

It should be considered that there are dozens of mistranslations we have.

Also time axis kanji is present -> 時間軸 time axis; time basis; timeline.

Yeah? Its there, but it doesn't say its the same axis of time every time travel.

So slime reader not having that in nor even the word timeline, clearly shows a biased translation.

Define biased, because nothing suggests it's biased at all.

That would just be referring back to the argument I made in the OP that cylces = timelines or time axis in this case, but those two phrases are interchangeable.

If it were the same time axis every time, it wouldn't be called a different time axis.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Need it translated properly, but it seems that its not that shes going back in the past of the same timeline, but that she's going to the same period of time. Also contradicted by how the other timeline, where Rimuru died, was in a different axis of time.

It's a different axis of time that ceased to exist. From the preset to the future, everything gets reconstructed once her time travel is successful. That's how I understand it—not that it's a different timeline that exists simultaneously.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

It should be considered that there are dozens of mistranslations we have.

Sent the deepl translation, which should suffice for now.

Also, having multiple mistranslations doesn't invalidate the entire source, we just take it on a case by case. Most of the mistranslations aren't even really all that damaging as far as I've seen on the fandom wiki for tensura, plus they even messed up one of their claims.

Yeah? Its there, but it doesn't say its the same axis of time every time travel.

Sent in the edit.

Define biased, because nothing suggests it's biased at all.

It's a fan translation which clearly disregarded the kanji for timeline or axis of time. Also the infamous;

The universe is vast, but not as vast as the other worlds.

When nothing suggest the an other world is larger than a universe anywhere else in the series.

If it were the same time axis every time, it wouldn't be called a different time axis.

Well it isn't the same cycle is it? So if it isn't the same cycle, then it isn't the same timeline either. The even talk about separate cycles in volume 11, chapter 5, so the use of differentiating the timelines/cycles doesn't mean anything, and I also refuted why in OP

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sent the deepl translation, which should suffice for now.

Gonna buzzer this one, NO machine translation is allowed. Zero. Nadda. Gotta get it translated by someone here.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Which part are you referring to specifically? Because, even if you try to discredit the idea of the world being remade, you still have to tackle the fact it was confirmed on multiple occasions.

We also know there are paradoxes such as the mask given to chloe and shizu, so I'll reread the chronoa stuff to see what I can come up with, but you also have to know she is a manas, not just a soul of chloe now, she should be held to a different standard.

The problem is what I pointed out ,if the previous timelines/cycles dont exist anymore,the current timeline shouldn't either since chronoa has gone to the past to help past versions of Chloe
Also there statements like these are contradicting Hinata's guess work

Humanity was born, interlocked in parallel worlds of other dimensions

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Gonna buzzer this one, NO machine translation is allowed. Zero. Nadda. Gotta get it translated by someone here.

Things really changed in this wiki it seems, I just got my account set up and now everything is unusable. Welp, with the existence of 時間軸, the OTL has more credibility than Slime Reader.

 

[Lycoris4812]

It's a fan translation which clearly disregarded the kanji for timeline or axis of time. Also the infamous;

Again, doesn't mean biased at all.

When nothing suggest the an other world is larger than a universe anywhere else in the series.

Doesn't invalidate the translation. It was translated multiple times by vsbw translators. Also, if you say spiritual worlds are other worlds, then there's some proof cause they contain material worlds.

Edit:

Hinata then silently listens to Chloe's story. It seems that the time axis to which Chloe is sent to is always the same era. Perhaps that is the limit of time leap. The place to which she is sent depends on the timing of the outburst of Chloe's power.
This is using Deepl, so the translation doesn't seem to be much different from the OTL

So Hinata silently listened as Chloe continued. Apparently, her time travel always took place in the same era, in the same axis of time those were likely the limitations of her skill. Exactly where she was taken depended on the timing of her out-of-control episodes.

Do you see the difference? She is sent to the same period of time vs she is sent to the same axis of time. Its mtl so it probably has some errors in the grammar; but the translators should fix it up.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The problem is what I pointed out ,if the previous timelines/cycles dont exist anymore,the current timeline shouldn't either since chronoa has gone to the past to help past versions of Chloe

Nothing here really matters or defeats the arguments. The timelines don't exist, anymore. They did at one point, but they were remade, so they now don't.

Also, where's the disconnect here? Chronoa and Chloe being together doesn't contradict anything, since we have the Arc, and Chronoa becoming a Manas. I don't see what your comment is supposed to prove or imply here.

Are you saying Chronoa shouldn't exist? Or are you saying the timeline shouldn't at all therefore there is no tensura, since that timeline is what the series follows.

Also there statements like these are contradicting Hinata's guess work

Already discussed in OP, Parallel worlds don't exist. So what's the point of bringing this up?

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Again, doesn't mean biased at all.

Means that they mistranslated, sure, not "biased".

Doesn't invalidate the translation. It was translated multiple times by vsbw translators. Also, if you say spiritual worlds are other worlds, then there's some proof cause they contain material worlds.

But I'm putting into question the existence of Other universes entirely, the translation that the Vsbw team came up with implies other spaces of universal size, which is all based on what you choose to use Uchū宇宙 as.

So if what I said about no other universes, or universal sized spaces, existing is correct, then that calls out that translation being true.

Do you see the difference? She is sent to the same period of time vs she is sent to the same axis of time. Its mtl so it probably has some errors in the grammar; but the translators should fix it up.

Understand the argument, but it is heavily implied in the chapter that it is the same timeline. I'll grab some quotes real quick.

 

[Bahaha]

However based on the same OTL, each alternative dimensions have multiple timelines (at least greater than one) in it. How would that work?

 

[Lycoris4812]

But I'm putting into question the existence of Other universes entirely, the translation that the Vsbw team came up with implies other spaces of universal size, which is all based on what you choose to use Uchū宇宙 as.

Its direct translation is universe. For outer space you need two more kanji right behind it.

 

[Robo432343]

smh this is why we should wait for @EldemadeDityjon's thread

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Yuuki being a genius doesn't mean in this particular situation he is correct, as I've just quoted that he was corrected by the narrative;


This was the narrative correcting Yuuki's original statement that time doesn't flow in subspace. When you bring up the fact that the narrative stated his guess was correct, he stated multiple different things prior to the confirmation, not just that time doesn't flow, such as;

Which directly refers to the narrative saying;

The right answer was referring to his guess about the light spheres being worlds and having flows of time, not the subspace itself being void of time. Even if the narrative was saying his comment about time not flowing in subspace, that would be contradicted by the fact it corrected that mistake and stated there was a flow of time which Yuuki guessed wrong, so still, Yuuki in this particular instance, is not credible.
So the "right answer" is either that its a world, or universe, or that time flows in the light sphere. There's no telling what the narrative is confirming, but we can't take the term "universe" seriously here since there isn't any major evidence to support that being the case.


She also has no control over when and where she goes. It was even stated to be complete chance/miracle, so using that means nothing cause all she's doing is interdimensional travel.

Spoiler: Volume 17, Chapter 2

Velgrynd traversed all of them-but not by her own free will; rather, she simply took the path she was guided to.
Page 64

Spoiler: Volume 21, Chapter 4

Velgrynd achieved it, but it was an exception by a combination of coincidence and miracle.

These other worlds in question are planets that she travels to in these other dimensions.

I already gave evidence that Other worlds are in these alternate dimension in the OP, but these other worlds she goes to all have implications of being planets, not whatever you are thinking they are.

Spoiler: Volume 17, Chapter 2

The first place she came to was a large landmass on one planet or another...
Page 61
...
In a more magic-oriented world, there was the vizier of a small kingdom.
Page 64
...
In a magic-less realm, there was a globe-trotting swindler.
Page64/65
...
In a civilized world, there was a scientist living in poverty.
Page 65

All these would refer back to this paragraph;

Spoiler: Volume 17, Chapter 2

Indeed, a wealth of civilizations could intermix in the physical worlds contained within vast spiritual realms. They could look familiar, all magic and swordfighting, or they could be bereft of magicules and locked away from all types of spells. Civilizations could be driven by a thing called science, and some of the less common realms featured human beings transformed into machines. Some worlds were small enough that a fully unleashed True Dragon could wipe them from existence; others were wastelands, fought over constantly by angels and demons with the powers of awakened demon lords.
Page 64

So clearly, the context of "world" in these instances are referring to the planets in these alternate dimensions.

Also saying dimension = universe here, is just claiming something without evidence of that being the case. We also have to realize, world doesn't mean Universe in majority of the cases, the dimensions are called worlds sometimes too, but the term Universe is hardly ever implied or stated.



I brought that point up as secondary evidence, not primary. Considering that there is no mention of multiple universes, should add onto the defense that there is no multiverse with the primary evidence I have listed.


And what context is that? I have plenty of scans and statements of proving the opposite, and I already gave you a couple in the last point.


They came from a planet, inside a dimension, with different laws. That was already hinted and implied in volume 17 that it's the dimensions themselves or the realms that have the difference in laws.



This isn't really a defeater. This is quite an odd statement to have since "same world's universe" could equally imply that all the worlds share one universe, and that universe is what's being explained.

And I could use the same argument in my OP for the translation issue, it's an outlier at best.

I also wanted to add something as I just found this when rereading some parts;

Spoiler: Volume 21, Chapter 4

In the subspace, there is always a phase fluctuation. It is not predictable, and if you are caught in it, it is impossible to predict what kind of other dimensional space you will be transported to.
Even the flow of time is distorted in this other world, so that even if you had 'Spatial Domination', it would not be realistic to return to the same point from where you were jumped.
Velgrynd achieved it, but it was an exception by a combination of coincidence and miracle.
It would have been better if he had been transported to another dimension where human beings inhabit, but it would not be surprising if he had been transported to the end of the universe where there is nothing, or to the middle of the great destruction before life was born.
No matter how spiritual life forms may be, survival in such a place is hopeless

Other world here obviously refers to subspace and the interesting thing about this, is jumping from subspace can cause serious issues, such as transporting yourself in a dimension where humans are or to the end of the universe.

Why would jumping from subspace, the gap between dimensions that supposedly encompass all of these alternate dimensions, put you to the end of THE universe, wouldn't it just be "a" universe? Even if that's semantical, the argument still stands because if there were multiple universe, which you claim are these dimensions, that means jumping from subspace shouldn't result in jumping to the end of a universe, but the end of a dimension or edge of dimension since dimension and universe are being implied to be different things here.

So we might need a translator on this, it was a few pages behind the solar system anti-feat.

First off, the narrator doesn't debunk that the Worlds aren't Universes in fact they continue talking about Worlds as universes. The confirmation came right after the narrator ''Debunking'' Yuuki's guess on time not flowing in subspace. So, Yuuki is still a reliable speaker when talking about if something is or isn't a universe. Also, we should be taking it serious here as Fuse gives us a direct statement that Worlds=Universes and Yuuki (Verifiable Genius who researches the nature of worlds from their laws down to their structure of being spiritual or not) gives an educated guess while observing them seeing their properties as well as noting the nature of time in a void while not having the means to manipulate information is backed up by the narrator. Especially with the context of it being a place beyond the space-times of the worlds.


It doesn't really matter if she can't control it or not. She is traveling to different worlds by (Going beyond space and time --> through subspace ----> Into an another world). Also they are all translation issues the word that normally is used in tensura for is ''planet''. It is nowhere in the RAWs except for a single place. in slime reader it was used twice.


Also, first place she came to was a ''large landmass'' (landmass doesn't even appear in the raws and other synonyms only appear in chapter 1 and 5) doesn't really mean anything considering that she is homing on Rudra's soul so it wouldn't make sense for her to be a galaxy away or deep into outer space.(also land As well as ''In a Magic-Oriented World, there was a kingdom'' means ''in a Magic-Oriented Universe, there was a kingdom'' so that is still not sufficient to say that it is a planet. Also, Civilizations don't help either considering that she is traveling to these Worlds and meeting people and different stages of civilisations doesn't in inherently mean planets.

Yes, They are HEAVILY implied to be universes even without Yuuki directly telling Mai and Laplace. To get to a different one, you have to go beyond time and space to subspace and then to the world that you know the coordinates of. They have dimensional walls, they have different laws and different causality, separate timelines and expanding space. That is almost textbook, implications of universes. And as shown earlier, Dimensions are synonymous with ''Other Worlds''.

And, everything that shows that it is a universe isn't an outlier is called world building. ''Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light.'' for example, why would Mai say same world's universe if she meant a single universe? Same by definition means there is at least another thing to compare it to.
And where is that translation from? Because that isn't from the OTL since that is in a week and if it is MTL they are banned banned when making a CRT.

And finally, Also, even if the multiverse theory goes. The Anti Magic mask that went through Countless/Infinite cycles and had and should have an equal amount of ''Time Compression/Thickness'' shows that they still have an effect even if those timelines or loops were erased or changed and considering that the Great Spirit of Time governs time in ''All Possible/Conceivable Worlds''.

Also, the reason why we don't use OTL is because of how much YenPress gives their own ''creative liberties''. A.k.a Complex Number of Spatial Dimensions for Infinity Prison when it should be infinite sized space, Faster than Light pre-ifrit Rimuru, Treyni's invisible blade having wind attribute which can somehow slash dimensions when it should be spatial attribute and all of this: https://tensura.fandom.com/wiki/Mistranslations

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Nothing here really matters or defeats the arguments. The timelines don't exist, anymore. They did at one point, but they were remade, so they now don't.

Also, where's the disconnect here? Chronoa and Chloe being together doesn't contradict anything, since we have the Arc, and Chronoa becoming a Manas. I don't see what your comment is supposed to prove or imply here.

Are you saying Chronoa shouldn't exist? Or are you saying the timeline shouldn't at all therefore there is no tensura, since that timeline is what the series follows.

Chronoa timetravels mean there multiple timelines existing at once ,the past where Chronoa went and the current timeline,if you are saying parallel timelines don't exist this should be impossible

Already discussed in OP, Parallel worlds don't exist. So what's the point of bringing this up?

To show you that something suggests otherwise?