Many incoherence for The Elements as a Independent Concept (Isekai Mahou wa Okureteru)

[Aglaio]

Premise​

In one of @Celestial_Pegasus threads it is explained that The Elements is an independent conceptual thing, but I find that odd and will discuss it here.

Feats in Question​

• The Elements are the source of anything and everything; from the heat you feel to the cool sensation when you touch water.
• The Elements is a wide concept that envelops the world, while existing outside of it.

Why it's incoherence?​

The Elements have no object. In accordance with Page Conceptual Manipulation, it is explained that every concept must have an object in its dominance, therefore, The Elements that does not explicitly have an object must be seen as something else and not a concept.

The Elements are not abstract either. Despite being called the "Source of Anything and Everything", The Elements is not abstract because it can still be felt. This shows that it is a concrete object, not an abstract one. Moreover, the fact that it does not have a bound object further explains that the form of The Elements is not abstract, so it would be appropriate if we eliminate the interpretation of The Elements as an Independent Concept because it does not define the characteristics of the concept according to our terminological framework.

Furthermore. The word 'concept' in The Elements actually refers to an idea, which is a synonym for the word concept itself. In this sense, the use of the phrase “concept known as The Elements” does not represent The Elements as an abstract concept, but rather a way to refer to the idea called The Elements. So we can reconstruct the sentence as “A wide idea known as The Elements,” a description that is even more consistent given the previous points that have discredited the notion of The Elements as a conceptual property.

Lastly. The Elements work in a rigid way, meaning that they are not flexible because the story explains that The Elements are a part of the Law of Parallel Worlds theory which explains the unique laws in each world. It is also known that these laws can only be used in one world, meaning The Elements cannot be used in other universes unless they are connected. If The Elements were independent, it would still be able to be used everywhere in a comprehensive and unrestricted way.

Conclusion​

Yup, The Elements doesn't present anything similar to a concept: no object, not abstract, too rigid, and the other semantics explained in the previous section.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You linked the cosmology page, but ignored parts of it.

To say the Elements aren't abstract because they can be felt, ignores how the mystical works in the series, the mystical only exists because humans believe they do, and humans inherently have the ability to sense mana. Of course The Elements can be sensed, magic is inherent to all intelligent life.

Also you ignored how magic works, a magical flame can't be outed by water, because it is conceptual, this is clearly an abstract thing.

As for your last point I really don't get, each world operates under different laws, the Elements are the law of the isekai world, the Elements still work in Suimei's world, if you say that's cause the two are connected and it doesn't work elsewhere, I don't think that discredits the Elements being concepts, The Elements exists outside their world within the transcendent plane of the astral plane, where everything exists. The theory of parallel world being proposed hasn't been fully explored because nobody has fully explored all the other words, so I wouldn't place a whole lot of stock to it.

We already know the Elements exists in a transcendent plane, where everything exists, which has no substance, and is whatever you believe it to be, and it's been stated to be conceptual. So overall I don't think anything has been disproven here.

 

[Aglaio]

You linked the cosmology page, but ignored parts of it.

To say the Elements aren't abstract because they can be felt, ignores how the mystical works in the series, the mystical only exists because humans believe they do, and humans inherently have the ability to sense mana. Of course The Elements can be sensed, magic is inherent to all intelligent life.

Also you ignored how magic works, a magical flame can't be outed by water, because it is conceptual, this is clearly an abstract thing.

As for your last point I really don't get, each world operates under different laws, the Elements are the law of the isekai world, the Elements still work in Suimei's world, if you say that's cause the two are connected and it doesn't work elsewhere, I don't think that discredits the Elements being concepts, The Elements exists outside their world within the transcendent plane of the astral plane, where everything exists. The theory of parallel world being proposed hasn't been fully explored because nobody has fully explored all the other words, so I wouldn't place a whole lot of stock to it.

We already know the Elements exists in a transcendent plane, where everything exists, which has no substance, and is whatever you believe it to be, and it's been stated to be conceptual. So overall I don't think anything has been disproven here.

In the end, I still didn't find the answer about the object in The Elements to be a Concept according to the text in the following page.

What you mentioned about mystery is basically still about the unconfirmed thinking of certain individuals: "there's a way of thinking that says that such...", so it's important to elaborate further because that form of narrative could be just a possibility among other possibilities. After all, we also discovered that The Elements are tied to physical reality because they are the source of heat and coolness when touching water, so a more significant explanation is needed.

That fire can't be extinguished with water is proof that it's fundamental (but remember, fundamental doesn't automatically make it abstract), and it's even explicitly explained that The Elements are the "Source of anything and everything" which clearly occupies a higher position in the power-system hierarchy there than conventional attributes like fire.

Can you give me more explicit evidence? I tried to find a narrative in your thread that mentions that The Elements exist in the Astral Plane and didn't find it except something along the lines of "the overflowing curse of hatred that has nowhere to go in the transient world ends up coagulating in the astral plane". Other evidence suggests that the Elements are present outside and envelop the world from there, so there are two claims here that are both contradictory.

When Felmenia tried to use Magicka in the Suimei world, it did work but without the presence of The Elements which made the results weak. This is also consistent because in Felmenia's world the witches draw The Elements with their Mana to create Magicka, so what happens when The Elements are not present? Either they can't be used or their performance is reduced because the source of Magic power is no longer there. On several occasions in your thread, it was also mentioned that Mana is a universal thing and is the main source for Magic, so it would not be surprising if at any time Felmenia is able to use Magicka in the Suimei world without The Elements because she still has Mana.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Humans creates Gods by drilling their faith into the colorless power from the astral plane, that kinda proves the mysteries come from humans if humans can create Gods no? Also besides Suimei's statement, there is the statement that magic is inherent to the universe and all intelligent life, this is consistent with humans creating the mysteries.

Also the Elements are the source of everything in the universe, to say that a conceptual thing being the source of heat and coolness, is obvious, how does this disprove its conceptual status? Obviously a conceptual thing would be the source of physical things.

The Elements and magic are stated to be conceptual multiple times, if it's stated to be the source of anything and everything and is stated to be conceptual, why would we ignore the conceptual statement? Having been stated that it's the source of everything, everything is the object of this concept.

Dark Magic exists within the Elements, where its again stated to be a wide concept btw, and Dark Magic is the gathering of the negative thoughts of humanity, which gets ejected from the world and ends up in The Elements. Liliana using her dark magic pulled in the sinful figure, a coagulation of malice, which came from The Astral Plane. Also again that the concept of the world itself ejects humanity's negative thoughts because its harmful, and it ends up in a transcendent plane, just reiterates that those lines of thinking ie that mysteries exists because of humans, are very credible.

Also idk how you think its contradictory for the Elements to be both within and outside the world, this is nothing new, we have characters like Alucard who exist everywhere and nowhere, and abilities like Nonduality.

Mana is a universal thing, magic is not, magic is a function of the Elements, which is the law of the isekai world, mana however is something even the Gods that exist in the astral plane are made up of. The universality of magic refers to its universe, but that changes nothing, just because its effects aren't literally everywhere that exists doesn't mean it can't be a concept.

Frankly this thread is weird to me, Isekai Mahou is an obscure verse that very few people care about and its the first thing you post here, that said I am not saying anything that isn't already on the official explanation page.