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Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)

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I'm calling to question the very fact that since they vary in size, there is no factor of size when calling something a universe in Tensura.

You also repeat the fact that two universes can be bigger or smaller.
Something larger than the universe is also a universe, one of the two universes may be larger in size than the other, this does not mean that both universes cannot be 3-A according to vsbw standards.

For example, the universe we can observe today is 3-A according to VSBW, and the universe we can observe a thousand years from now will also be 3-A unless the standards change. The fact that the universe we can observe a thousand years from now is much larger than the universe we can observe today will not change anything.
The point about the one universe being universal in size but also being able to be conquered by the Phantom in only 20,000 years would be either they plan to take over the entire space with no proof of ftl travel and already took unknown amount of years to prep to invade the Holy Arcia Empire planet, which means 20,000 years is not a large timeframe to conquer something 93 billion light years in diameter.
I've already debunked this, do you even read your own thread?
Calculate the distance that needed to be covered based on the time, but in that case the time in question can be used if we assume that the estimate of the distance is correct. So they would have to be able to perceive the size of the world in question in order to have an idea of the distance. In that case, you're the one who claims that they can perceive the size of the world.

I would argue that safer option is that the distance in question is just the distance that needs to be covered to invade civilizations. Do you understand now?
When there is evidence claiming differing sizes of universes, in puts into question the validity of if the size is equal to a universe or not via wiki standards.
I will say it for the last time, is there any proof that a world called the universe is smaller than the universe or not? If not, the existence of a other world larger than the observable universe will never, ever proof that the structures called the universe are not 3-A according to VSBW standards.
 
Also, I don't know much about this, but doesn't the kanji used for spatial abilities and space-time abilities in Tensura express the words sky/space? In that case, does it really make sense to think that the kanji used for space/universe, even though it is already a kanji used for space, refers to space instead of universe?
 
I am going to summarize my arguments in a conclusion here so that it's all out there for anyone to read.

The Premise​

Time loops/Cycles, is it 2A?​

No one contended with the cycles/loops, so it's safe to say the agreement for it can be finalized, unless someone wishes to bring that up now.

Is it the size of a Universe?​

The main point of contention puts into question whether these "universes" are universal in size.

I brought attention to the fact that these spaces/dimensions vary in size;

Indicating these "other world" universes are larger than the Universe Velgrynd was in at that current moment.

With also a contention with the fact that the plan for that same "universe" was to conquer it in 20,000 years. Since they utilized an Underworld gate to get to the Holy Arcia Empire planet. There's no known method of travelling ftl for the Phantoms, and, to my knowledge, underworld gates appear only on select planets via space-time rifts appearing at random every 4000 years, this would mean they have no method to traverse 20,000 years in a span of time that would prove without a doubt that that universe isn't vaster than a galaxy at most.

Implies universes grow in size, which entails there a difference in size if a universe was there before another, also if time flows slower in some worlds or faster in others.

Time isn't in synch, so we cannot state the time in each "universe" is 1 to 1 with another.

Which also could allow this to give context for slower time flow since Zalario felt billions of years, which may have not been the case that tens of billions of years passed by.


We have subspace which is referred to as an Other world, where time flows slow enough for Yuuki to not be able to notice that time is even flowing.

We also concluded that dimensions vary in size in this CRT, which should add more validity to this being the case.

So clearly we have an underlying issues where "universes" can vary in size, which I bring up must mean that size isn't a factor when calling something a universe in Tensura, therefore there has to be evidence put forward that can confirm the sizes of these "universes" are indeed vsbw's classification of Universal-Size Realm

Translation​

I feel like most of the translations aren't necessary anymore, but there were a ton that haven't been translated yet such as being called Universes, and whether Zalario was perceiving time differently than the other world he was in;


Conclusion​

So considering the there were no refutations to the Cycle/Time loop premise, 2A should be removed from;
Also considering we have the main refutations regarding the sizes of these "universes" still called to question, we can conclude any rating in Tier 2 at all, unless of course someone brings up a very valid argument that those "Universes" are indeed the size of universes that would be classified under Vsbw's terms.

With what those profiles should instead have in it's place would be 3-C considering;
  • The proof of an interstellar world
  • Also if space does expand faster than the speed of light, and cardinal world and even the world of the Holy Arcia Empire would have at least 20,000 years of life, this would put the two worlds within galaxy level ranges at least.
Whether or not 3-B is dependent on how Veldanava created these worlds, either all at once or one at a time as I don't remember seeing anything that would elude to it being all at once.
Btw if was not talking about otherworlds. It was just talking about Otherworld which Cornu from.
But it may be talking about space or universe depends on context like you mentioned.

Either way, I agree with the idea of worlds varying in size — with the Velgrynd example, where her range can’t bypass a solar system, but some worlds are still small enough to be cooked by it.
 
If universes would be smaller than universes there would be no point calling them timelines in volume 17?

MTL:
Also, since parallel worlds do not coexist, it is impossible for the same being to exist twice within the same timeline.
RAW:
ないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ
OTL:
No parallel worlds overlapped each other in the universe, so there were never duplicates of the same existence within the same timeline.

Galaxy level timeline by any chance?
 
instant death and fate are not examples of that
What I mean is that having a timeline doesn't necessarily mean you should be Low 2-C. You can still be Tier 3 even if you have timelines. So I think it's a valid example to point out that the wiki has verses with Tier 3 characters who have timelines. How is this not an example?
 
What I mean is that having a timeline doesn't necessarily mean you should be Low 2-C. You can still be Tier 3 even if you have timelines. So I think it's a valid example to point out that the wiki has verses with Tier 3 characters who have timelines. How is this not an example?
A tier 3 cosmology having a timeline does not fit under our standards on what a timeline actually is. Instant Death and Fate are not examples because their 'timelines' dont qualify for actual timelines in VSBW standards. A galaxy level timeline can exist in fiction yes but it wont be considered an actual timeline in vsbw.
 
If universes would be smaller than universes there would be no point calling them timelines in volume 17?

MTL:

RAW:

OTL:


Galaxy level timeline by any chance?
Regardless of what you're quoting, even a space-time continuum with its own microscopic ecosystem of, say, a cubic centimeter in volume can be called a timeline, and to destroy that space-time continuum you would have to destroy the uncountable infinite 3-D snapshots of that microscopic ecosystem, i.e. its 4-D structure, but for now this isn't enough for Tier 2
 
a tier 3 cosmology having a timeline does not fit under our standards on what a timeline actually is
I'm not saying this
instant death and fate are not examples because their 'timelines' dont qualify for actual timelines in VSBW standards
Just trying to say, stop acting like only Tensura is getting this treatment when other verses follow the same rules. Obviously, it's a different verse and might have a different context, but the wiki still lists characters below Tier 2 despite the presence of timelines. That's what I'm trying to say.

What I meant is if there is contradiction and timelines doesn't qualify for low 2-C then obviously they can be tier 3 like those verses.
 
This long ass CRT need to conclude or else just start another CRT cuz I ain’t doing something for an hour and comeback just to see another 2+ pages that will end up like Zoro going to another universe.
 
This thread should have been separated into parts rather than a collective whole. The cycles/loops are a controversial topic by themselves but adding multiple points is bound to have a lot of discussion making it harder for people to keep track of it. By the rate that it is going now by the time the OTL of volume 21 comes out, this thread will have at least nine more pages.
 
This thread should have been separated into parts rather than a collective whole. The cycles/loops are a controversial topic by themselves but adding multiple points is bound to have a lot of discussion making it harder for people to keep track of it. By the rate that it is going now by the time the OTL of volume 21 comes out, this thread will have at least nine more pages.
Yeah.. 1000%, looking back and thinking about that now is making that notion hit super hard, that one.
 
I had them in the translation thread, but here they are again plus this last one needed.

1. 宇宙の彼方なのか、異次元の果てなのか......。唯一つ確かなのは、 災禍の化身であるという事だ。
Be it from the far reaches of space*, or the edge of another dimension... One thing's for sure - that thing's disaster incarnate.
*realistically this one could be either. 宇宙 can be both outer space and universe, and the meaning of the phrase doesn't change signiciantly between them, essentially meaning "really fuckn' far away"
2. 跳ばされた先だが、人が生息している別次元世界だったらまだマシで、何もない宇宙の終焉だったり、生命が誕生する前の大破壊の真っ最中だっ たりしても不思議ではない.
(i think someone asked me this one over discord so i'm just copypasting it here)
Although it would be ideal if the place I was launched to was a different-dimensional-world inhabited by humans, it wouldn't be strange if it was at the death of an empty universe or right in the middle of a great destruction before life was even born.
3. ただし、その秘めたる威力は――宇宙開闢以来で最大となる、絶禍の破壊力を生じさせるものだった。
However, that hidden power - It could unleash a great destructive force, the greatest seen since the birth of the universe.
4.《その通りです。 フェルドウェイの“時空跳激震覇〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。 そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。 フェルドウェイの力では、 基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》
"Precisely. We've been launched somewhere in space-time by Feldway's Chrono Saltation. Although that planet's lifespan had long since been burnt up, it still hasn't come to the end of the world. My guess is that Feldway's power is limited to destroying the Central World's Universe."
5.『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ」
『宇宙う?』
"Hmm, even though I've been watching that rainbow sphere, didn't it just swell up and disappear? If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably one world - a universe."
"A universe?"
Also this one (『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の 球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うん だ」
『宇宙う?』)
Is that relating to two possibilities, like a world OR universe, or specifying world to universe.
i think it's specifying. there are ways to indicate you're suggesting multiple different possibilities for something if you're not sure of it (like か, or とか or や between the multiple options), but none of them are used here.
it's literally just world, comma, universe (mainly because outer space makes no sense here as opposed to universe)

6. (そもそもさ、この場に三人いるっていうのも、ちょっと引っかかるんだよね。時空嵐? そんな宇宙開闢並みに珍しい事象と遭遇して、かつ無事に乗り切り、運よく知り合いのいる場所まで跳ばされるなんて、そんなの絶対に偶然じゃないもの)
(To begin with, even 3 people being here bothers me. To encounter a space-time storm - something as rare as the birth of a universe - get through it safely, and so luckily arrive at a familiar place with people we know, there's no way it's a coincidence.)
7. 俺の「虚数空間」は無限に広がっているらしく、まだ満たされていないのだそうだ。
My "Imaginary Space" seems to go on forever, and still hasn't been filled.
8. 世界を何万回でも再構築出来るほど充たされているというのに。
Even though it was sufficient to re-create the world tens of thousands of times over.
9.《―――その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を漂うように彷徨い、 この世界の終わりを見届けたのです≫ (does this mean ciel traveled physically through the universe or simply drifted?)
"After that, I aimlessly wandered* through a universe devoid of stars, and witnessed the end of the world myself."
*漂う is to drift, ように makes it into a simile acting on 彷徨い, which is to wander/roam
Edit: i also want to know what's stopping this: (宇宙は広いが、異界ほどではない。) From being "space is vast" Instead of "the universe is vast"
i have no context but uh
nothing really? 宇宙 can be either space or universe, which one makes more sense would be context dependent
 
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Precisely. We've been launched somewhere in space-time by Feldway's Chrono Saltation. Although that planet's lifespan had long since been burnt up, it still hasn't come to the end of the world. My guess is that Feldway's power is limited to destroying the Central World."
Literally all machine translations mention "Cardinal/Axis/Central World's Universe". Are you sure there really isn't the word "universe" here?
 
Literally all machine translations mention "Cardinal/Axis/Central World's Universe". Are you sure there really isn't the word "universe" here?
it's there i just forgot to actually write it down in english oops
i figured it was a verse-specific term, googled it, saw "Central World" and just wrote that down
ZuwbecK.png

i've edited the message now
 
it's there i just forgot to actually write it down in english oops
i figured it was a verse-specific term, googled it, saw "Central World" and just wrote that down
ZuwbecK.png

i've edited the message now
You scared us there....

I just realized I can see the emoji when replying...
 
So universe indeed was destroyed by Feldway and Ciel only compared her wandering to drifting across empty universe where no star blinked. 🤨
 
Be it from the far reaches of space*, or the edge of another dimension... One thing's for sure - that thing's disaster incarnate.
*realistically this one could be either. 宇宙 can be both outer space and universe, and the meaning of the phrase doesn't change signiciantly between them, essentially meaning "really fuckn' far away"

(i think someone asked me this one over discord so i'm just copypasting it here)
Although it would be ideal if the place I was launched to was a different-dimensional-world inhabited by humans, it wouldn't be strange if it was at the death of an empty universe or right in the middle of a great destruction before life was even born.

However, that hidden power - It could unleash a great destructive force, the greatest seen since the birth of the universe.

"Precisely. We've been launched somewhere in space-time by Feldway's Chrono Saltation. Although that planet's lifespan had long since been burnt up, it still hasn't come to the end of the world. My guess is that Feldway's power is limited to destroying the Central World."

"Hmm, even though I've been watching that rainbow sphere, didn't it just swell up and disappear? If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably one world - a universe."
"A universe?"

i think it's specifying. there are ways to indicate you're suggesting multiple different possibilities for something if you're not sure of it (like か, or とか or や between the multiple options), but none of them are used here.
it's literally just world, comma, universe (mainly because outer space makes no sense here as opposed to universe)


(To begin with, even 3 people being here bothers me. To encounter a space-time storm - something as rare as the birth of a universe - get through it safely, and so luckily arrive at a familiar place with people we know, there's no way it's a coincidence.)

My "Imaginary Space" seems to go on forever, and still hasn't been filled.

Even though it was sufficient to re-create the world tens of thousands of times over.

"After that, I aimlessly wandered* through a universe devoid of stars, and witnessed the end of the world myself."
*漂う is to drift, ように makes it into a simile acting on 彷徨い, which is to wander/roam

i have no context but uh
nothing really? 宇宙 can be either space or universe, which one makes more sense would be context dependent
Thank you for all your help with translating all of these. 😁
 
Yo guys this thread has now span accros 9 pages i think its time to make a thorough summary and call in staff but i don't know tho
 
This thread should have been separated into parts rather than a collective whole. The cycles/loops are a controversial topic by themselves but adding multiple points is bound to have a lot of discussion making it harder for people to keep track of it. By the rate that it is going now by the time the OTL of volume 21 comes out, this thread will have at least nine more pages.
Did preface that this was my first CRT, I'll make note of that for future reference!
 
"Precisely. We've been launched somewhere in space-time by Feldway's Chrono Saltation. Although that planet's lifespan had long since been burnt up, it still hasn't come to the end of the world. My guess is that Feldway's power is limited to destroying the Central World's Universe."
Shouldn't this be relating to "star's" lifespan, as opposed to Planet? Considering lifespan here indicates expiration, and also "burnt up", but then in a later translation which occur quite close to this one;
"After that, I aimlessly wandered* through a universe devoid of stars, and witnessed the end of the world myself."
So Hoshi星 in the first one would be star no?
 
Shouldn't this be relating to "star's" lifespan, as opposed to Planet? Considering lifespan here indicates expiration, and also "burnt up", but then in a later translation which occur quite close to this one;

So Hoshi星 in the first one would be star no?
sure
i don't have the original context for any of these
i don't know if they're referring to the same thing nor how close they appear in the story, so if there's a word change that would make more sense given knowledge from the story then it's probably correct
 
sure
i don't have the original context for any of these
i don't know if they're referring to the same thing nor how close they appear in the story, so if there's a word change that would make more sense given knowledge from the story then it's probably correct
Also, I apologize, I'm making your job much more difficult but I do have something I forgot to add into that

異界と基軸世界では流れる時間が違う為、
Because in the Otherworld and Cardinal World, the flowing time is different,
ザラリオの体感時間では数百億年以上もの永きに渡って、
In Zarario’s experienced time, over a long period of more than hundreds of billions of years,
戦い続けているようなものなのだ。
It is like he has been continuing to fight.
それなのに剣の技量が頭打ちなのは、
And yet, the reason his sword skill has hit a ceiling is
蟲魔族<[インセクター]という敵の特性に特化してしまったせいである。
Because he ended up specializing in the traits of the enemy called the Insector, the insect demon tribe.
Need confirmation of this
 
Also, I apologize, I'm making your job much more difficult but I do have something I forgot to add into that


Need confirmation of this
confirmation of what part in particular
the translation is accurate if that's what you're asking
 
confirmation of what part in particular
the translation is accurate if that's what you're asking
More so if it's a subjective perspective, or actually experiencing a timeline for through billions of years. If that makes sense
 
More so if it's a subjective perspective, or actually experiencing a timeline for through billions of years. If that makes sense
it's very explicitly according to his perception - 体感時間 is like the time his body feels has passed, 体 is body and 感 is sensation/feeling
whether that correlates accurately to how much time actually passed or if he's using some perception altering skill so that they don't match, i do not know
 
I'm gonna be debunking and rebunking this whole "TenSura is not a multiverse" mess in detail.

But before that , need a few things. @SeijiSetto or anyone else could you please translate all the Japanese RAWs in this post that are needed (not many are actually needed to translate if you have already translated them before then I will just have to find them and you don’t need to do it again.


What is a Universe

Universes (宇宙) are basically Timelines.

In Volume 21, it's stated that Feldway destroyed the "Universe of the Cardinal World", yet the Cardinal World was not destroyed yet. Later, he talks about the things happening in that destroyed Universe as "In/on that Timeline", and says that when he was transferred (By Chrono Saltation), everything was already over (Feldway destroyed the Universe and therefore the timeline ended)


  • For anyone wondering how we're sure that the "In that Timeline" is referring to "In that Universe of the Cardinal World", it's because the World had not been destroyed yet . As Ciel said, she only witnessed the "End of this World" (The word "this world" [JP: この世界] proves that it's referring to Cardinal World) much later, so the earlier statement must be referring to the Universe of the Cardinal World.
  • for the part where the Universe was destroyed but the World wasn’t , Ciel uses the term "Beyond Time and Space" (時空の彼方), meaning that the "Universe" here refers to an entire Space-Time Continuum.
  • 《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》


    その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。
    シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。
    それがフェルドウェイの望み通りだったのかもわからないが、俺にとってはどうでもいい話である。
    ──その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を
  • 漂うように彷徨さまよい、この世界の終わりを見届けたのです》

In Volume 22, we know that Yuuki and Mai observed the Worlds in the World-Gap (Gap between Worlds), and here, Yuuki says that the Light Spheres they're observing all each "One Universe" otherwise known as a world. Which the narrative Confirms as the correct conclusion.

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ?アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』
Now,for the size of the Universe? Since the literal name isn’t enough to show it, it's literally said that the Space inside a Universe of a World is expanding faster than the Speed of Light. If that's not enough to show that "Universes" are based on the real-life model of a Universe, then I don’t know what is 😭

同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。

Now, the main point of the thread, the whole thing about Parallel Worlds not existing.
Somehow , the points about "Many Parallel/Branching Universes" existing is linked to the point "Contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time can occur".


多元宇宙論のように、新しい宇宙がどんどん生まれており、幾つもの平行世界が多数重なって存在するとするならば、そこに矛盾は存在せず、二人のクロエは同時に出会う事が可能だろう。

And this theory is confirmed twice "apparently" in that same context:

世界はやはり一つしかなく、矛盾の存在を許さぬらしい。
~ Volume 11
ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。

Now, anyone ONLY reading the scans given by the OP would obviously believe that this is it, Hinata's theory is true and the earlier theory is false.

Well,this is wrong. Because this isn't the full context. Let's look at both lines at the same time, and also the line "in-between" that the OP left out (for some reason)



Sure, Hinata confirmed that her theory was correct, twice, but literally, just after Hinata said her theory was correct, the thoughts of someone Chloe says that no, it's simply that the Collapse of the World isn't allowed, but contradictions can exist as long as enough force is there. Otherwise there's no way to prove the existence of the mask.

仮令、自分が犠牲になるのだとしても。しかし問題もある。

それこそが、今クロエが口にした内容なのだ。

(でも、どうやら私の推理は正しかったみたいね……)

世界はやはり一つしかなく、矛盾の存在を許さぬらしい。

(──いいえ、違うわね。矛盾を許さぬのではなく、世界が綻ぶのを許さないだけね。そこに強制力さえあれば、矛盾すらもねじ曲げられるのよ。でなければ、あの〝仮面〟の存在が説明出来ないもの)

ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。

So, how is this possible? Why did Hinata think "her theory was correct", then someone says "no, that’s not entirely true", then it again says "She felt relieved that her theory was correct"?
Well, it's simple. It's a matter of perspective. You see those ( ) braces? Yeah, those are thoughts from a different person, NOT Hinata. Otherwise why would the ( ) text negate the outside text before and after?
Well, let's explain this. We should first know that the whole reason why Hinata even proposed the theory was because she refused to believe a thing, as it gave her despair of not being able to save the different timelines. Chloe even said "There are also problems (with that)". So we can assume that the ( ) thoughts that were contradicting Hinata are Chloe's.


ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。


世界は作り変えられている──と考える方が、まだ理解出来るのである。
そうでなければ、幾つもの世界に、何人もの自分が存在し、今、ヒナタ達が行っている行為も、全てが無駄だという事になってしまうからだ。
救われる世界があれば、滅び去る世界もある──そんな考え方は、ヒナタとしては納得がいかなかったのだ。
だからこそ、今回でクロエのループを終わらせて世界を救うのだと、ヒナタはそう決意していた。
た と え仮令、自分が犠牲になるのだとしても。
しかし問題もある。
それこそが、今クロエが口にした内容なのだ。
(でも、どうやら私の推理は正しかったみたいね……



So yeah, there was never even a REALconfirmation of Hinata being correct. Chloe, the literal person that experienced all those Time Travels herself before, said that Hinata was not entirely correct . Yet it seems that Hinata didn't listen to those ( ) thoughts for some unknown reason, and again came to her own conclusion, finding relief in her own theory that was clearly an Appeal to Emotions.



Potential Counters

  • Regarding a few counters, especially This statement saying that Chloe's time travels always took place on the same time axis.
This is actually a mistranslation. The JP RAWs merely say that the era was the same, not the time axis/time line itself. Which basically just means that she always spent her time (the same 2000 years) in the same era, repeatedly defeating Veldora, helping Luminous, etc. It does NOT mean the timeline was the same.

クロエが飛ばされる時間軸は、決まって同じ時代だったらしい。恐らくそれが、時間跳躍の限界なのだろう。

And that is literally confirmed later by Raphael, when Raphael says it can't analyze Chloe's powers because it can't analyze things (data/information) from different timelines.

As it is confirmed to be an entirely different timeline

《──ッ!! 一つの可能性が浮上しました。アルティメットスキル究 極 能 力『ヨグ・ソトース時空之王』に統合したユニークスキル『トキノタビビト時間旅行』の権能から、個体名:クロエ・オベールが『時間』を操れるようになったのだとすれば──同一時間軸から外れた現象は観測出来ない為、事象の『解析鑑定』も必ず失敗します》

あっ、それか……。

クロエが目覚めた力の正体──それこそが、時を止める、とかそういう感じの力なのか。

ラ フ ァ エ ル智慧之王としても、ユニークスキル『トキノタビビト時間旅行』の仕組みを『解析鑑定』しているらしいのだが、結果が出るにはまだまだ時間がかかりそうだとの事。クロエの『ヨグ・ソトース時空之王』には、『トキノタビビト時間旅行』をそのまま組み込んだだけみたい。

そりゃあ、観測出来ない情報を理解するのは難しいよね。

つまり、それを自分の力としたのは、クロエ自身という事になる。とんでもないなと思うのと同時に、時間を止めるとか反則だろうと叫びたくなった。

そりゃあ、百万倍に引き延ばされた知覚速度でも認識出来ない訳だ。止まった世界の事柄など、時の流れに身を任せている俺達に認識出来る訳がない。

いやいや、待てよ?

それが正しいと仮定するならば、止まった世界に到達出来ない者は、どれだけ強かろうと到達者には及ばないという事になるのでは……?

This literally does not prove anything. Since we know that Hinata didn't listen to the other person before when her theory was negated, it's correct to believe that even this time, she simply believed she was correct because Chloe's consciousness was gone. Obviously, she wouldn't actually know where it had gone since she cannot observe or analyze time. So the reliability of her statements aren’t that good.

Alright so, unless my vision is faulty, is it just me or others can also see that the person (likely Rimuru) is saying that based on "I think"? Even more so when Rimuru can't even analyze phenomena from different timelines, and literally admitted that Chloe's power was from another time line (shown previously), and even that her previous iterations in the loop were different timelines? (Also note that both of these statements are after Raphael told him that it cannot analyze phenomena from different timelines, so yeah, these statements at these instances are reliable, unlike Hinata's).

別の時間軸とはいえ、一度殺された相手には苦手意識を持ってしまうね。帝国と敵対する事になったら、用心するとしよう。
ギィについては、やっぱりかと思っただけで驚きはしなかった。

それよりも、クロノアの死の間際に何が起きたのかだが……それは多分、クロノアの『時間旅行』が発動したのだろう。しかしそれだけでは、クロエの時間軸にたど辿り着けた理由が足りない。

ひょっとすると、俺が何かした可能性もある訳だ。

  • Then there's this statement of Velgrynd saying Parallel Worlds do not exist.
Well, the problem with this one is not, per-say, the translation, but rather the exact Kanji. The JP RAWs term these "Parallel" in this specific scan is "並列", which means "Parallel as in arranged in parallel", like two parallel lines for instance.

Post in thread 'Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translation-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-7013187

同一世界は一つでありパラレルワルド並列世界など存在しないだがしかしアナザワルド別次元世界は存在しているのである


The problem with that, however, is that this kanji is never used in Volume 11. In Volume 11, the kanji used is instead 平行, which instead means simultaneously existing/existing at the same time.

多元宇宙論のように、新しい宇宙がどんどん生まれており、幾つ

もの平行世界が多数重なって存在するとするならば、そこに矛盾は 存在せず、二人のクロエは同時に出会う事が可能だろう。

  • They are called "Cycles".
That literally does not mean anything. A verse can give any name to a Universe (realm, world, timeline, reality, bubbles, spheres, etc.) and it wouldn't matter as long as there's proof that they are different timelines.

Validity of Many-Universe Theory

Now that the contentions are cleanly dealt with, that brings us the question, how true was Chloe's own theory (Many-Universe theory)? Well, it's half true and half false.

Firstly, the fact that Parallel Worlds exist is true, but the fact that contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time is not true. And it's not that "two Chloe(s) can't meet at the same time in the same timeline" but simply "two Chloe(s) can't exist in the same timeline", regardless of what era it is, even if different for both.

For a statement like "Parallel Worlds do not overlap" to even exist, Parallel Worlds need to exist. It's the same as how a statement like "Apples are not green" confirms that apples exist, even if they are not green. Because to conclude a statement, the premise must be true.

Note that the kanji used here is also 平行世界, the same as in Volume 11, so the meaning behind the term "Parallel World" in this specific instance is the same.

文明レベルも様々でそれがどの次元でどの時間軸なのかもヴェルグリンドには推し量るす術べなどないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ

つまり一度行ったからといって同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである

ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば正確な時空間座標を認識出来ているだがしかしそこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳でアルティメットスキル究極能力クトゥグア炎神之王の時空間跳躍でも跳べないのだ

Parallel worlds do exist just not in that sense.

Then there's also the whole thing about a phenomena called "Timeline Synchronization", which basically confirms the existence of multiple timelines for ALL worlds.

Basically, let's say if Individual X from Timeline X in the Cardinal World goes to Timeline X of some random other world. Then, if Individual Y from Timeline Yof the Cardinal World later goes to that same other world, the timelines between both worlds can be synchronized in such a way that Individual X and Individual Y would meet in the same timeline, aka Timeline X, and Individual Y cannot go to a timeline other than Timeline X, or, they can't go to Timeline Ywhile Individual A is in Timeline A.

Or, if in the other world, both go to different timelines, the timelines are synchronized so that they appear in the same timeline. It's something like Steins; Gate's Timeline Shifts, if I had to gave an example, where the timelines change without most realizing it.

This is basically to prevent even two different individuals from different timeline of one world to exist in the same timeline of a different world.

Otherwise contradictions would occur. Like one person asking "Oh hey, did you remember that event in our old world?", and the other person says "No? That never happened!" because the events of their previous timelines may be different.

As for the context of the scan, Amari is a subordinate of Feldway who went from Cardinal World's Timeline A's past the Other World's Timeline A's past. Now, Velgrynd previously went from Cardinal World's Timeline A's future to the Other World's Timeline B's past, but both of them did so at different times with respect to the Cardinal World's Timeline A. However, when the world realized this, a shift occurred and Velgrynd arrived at the Other World's Timeline A's past instead. From there on, since Velgrynd was from the future of the Cardinal World, Amari didn't know that Velgrynd already recognized Feldway as an enemy, as they were allies in the past, but turned enemies in the future.(not to mention she is an ultimate skill user and therefore has greater insight into the worlds laws compared to hinata as well as direct showings of the cosmology)

常に冷静沈着なあ天ま理りま正さひ彦こでさえもこの事態は想定外の出来事であるヴェルグリンドの存在を確信してはいたがまさか対処する間もなく邂逅する事になるとは思いもしなかった

ヴェルグリンドどうして貴様が?

私の名前を知っているのね

当然だ貴様は我等の王たるフェルドウェイ様と手を携え皇帝ルドラの覇道を手助けしているのではなかったのか!?

ああ基軸世界と繋がっているなら時間軸も同期出来そうね

自分の愛する者達を傷付けようとした存在をヴェルグリンドは嫌悪しているのである

そしてあ天ま理りま正さひ彦こはその感情を正確に見抜いている

(最悪だな既に我等は敵認定されているようだだが解せぬフェルドウェイ様とは味方同士のはずだが── いや待てよ?時間軸の同期だと!?)


天ま理りま正さひ彦この恐るべき頭脳が高速で回転するそしてヴェルグリンドが洩もらした言葉の端からおおよその正解を導き出した

(そうかコイツは違う時間軸からやって来たのだこちらの状況を知らぬようだがフェルドウェイ様と皇帝ルドラの話に驚いた様子はなかったという事は現時点までの知識はあると見て間違いないコルヌ様からの命令変更もない点から判断するに未来の時点で何かあったのだろうなそこで恐らく── )

基軸世界からこちらの世界の過去へと跳んだ

── それがあ 天ま 理りま 正さひ 彦こ の出した推論であった

称賛すべき頭脳の冴えである

Then there's also the fact that Yuuki confirmed that Branched Worlds (aka constantly branching parallel worlds) exist by saying that the world he observed was a branched world.

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

Size of the Universe

So there's this whole talk about the Universe not being universal in size. Literally.

There are some "people" (I won't name them) saying that it's not necessary for a thing called a Universe to be Universal in size, BECAUSE Instant Death got downgraded to 3-A despite having statements of Universes existing.

First off, Instant Death had a unique case where there were actual statements that infinite sized universes cannot exist.

Second, we never claimed the Universes were infinite in size. But they are still the size of the Universe and there are no statements otherwise. Per that, the VSBW standards of a realm called "Universe" is treated as being Universal in size:

Source

  • For the 1st and 2nd point, and the first part of the 3rd point, it's literally called "Universe", "Timeline" and "Parallel Universes".
同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。

《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》

その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。

シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。

文明レベルも様々でそれがどの次元でどの時間軸なのかもヴェルグリンドには推し量るす術べなどないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ

つまり一度行ったからといって同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである

ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば正確な時空間座標を認識出来ているだがしかしそこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳でアルティメットスキル究極能力クトゥグア炎神之王の時空間跳躍でも跳べないのだ

  • • For the second part of the 3rd point, they are also depicted as bubbles/photospheres:
Note that the first line starts with "I understood" so it doesn't hold much weight . By all other means and narrative consistency, they are inside a Dimension observing Worlds, in other words, in the World-Gap.

理解出来たのは、マイ達は次元の狭間に漂っているままだということ。

ユウキが謎の『結界』を張っているお陰で、異界でも『魔力感知』が発動していたのだ。

一寸先は闇というが、本当に『結界』の外は未知の世界だった。

遠くで光り輝く虹が視えたりするが、そこに至るまでに何があるのかまったく視えないのである。

ごく近くで虹色の球が膨らみ、弾けて消えた。

何が起きたのかサッパリ不明だが、とんでもない状況なのだろうと推察される。

マイは外の出来事を理解するのを諦めて、『結界』内に視線を戻した

Later they're said that these spheres are "Branched Worlds" (aka branched timelines).

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

As for why they are only observing individual timelines in the World-Gap and not Worlds (a collection of them) in their entirety, it's mainly again the World (System) doing it. We already know from before about how contradictions cannot exist and timeline synchronization happen.

And we also know that one cannot observe phenomena from another timeline (explained above) nor any temporal intervention without the ability to intervene themselves(Temporal Manipulation), which basically mean they cannot observe other timelines because they cannot observe time. They only see the Universe (Photosphere) that is the timeline the world has synchronized to them.

So, by all means, the Cycle of Time is still 2-A. where each Timeline is Universal in size.


Addressing fragile and small worlds.



We know from this scan that Space itself has a property of expansion at FTL rate. This means even a small world can't be less than Universal in size.

the fact that the words used are "even in the" means they apply to other universes too
the ftl expansion is due to co-relation between time and space (time flows and space spreads). So since time and space exist in all worlds (suspended world stops time and space across all worlds), ftl expansion applies to all worlds too

Additionally, these aren't really "small" to begin with, but rather ones with less Magicule density.



The whole volume is about Velgrynd traveling to "weak worlds" where the concept of strength is far inferior due to less Magicule density.



just because a world is shown to have interstellar or intergalactic forces does NOT mean its size should be limited to that. Once again, FTL expansion plays a role here.



Now, does that mean all possible worlds are of the same size? Well, no.



First off, Spiritual Worlds are vaster than Physical Worlds.



And no, this doesn't refer to planets and space kinda shit. Spiritual Worlds are literally worlds where Space itself is magical, or infused with magicules. While Physical worlds are those that lack magicules.

Velgrynd went through a multitude of worlds, where she said that there where a few worlds that were weak/small enough that a true dragon could destroy them. With the kanji meaning both at the same time

Let’s check the context of this sentence.



A world without magicules is just that much frailer.

The worlds velgrynd was traveling through were the PHYSICAL worlds that are contained within VAST spiritual worlds.

A physical world is a world without any magicules at all. Rimuru is from our universe, and our universe is a part of a physical world.



Meaning that a true dragon can destroy weak universes. With the smallest and weakest universe known being ours due to being a physical world. A world without magicules
See here


Spiritual worlds are so vast that they can contain physical worlds inside them. Physical worlds are therefore small and weak worlds in comparison to a spiritual one which velgrynd is used to .and not actually small in the sense of being smaller than a universe

We know Velgrynd went to a "weak world" and Timeline synchronization applied there too, meaning these weak worlds also have timelines/cycle of time.



Thus, even worlds as a whole are 2-A.



Whole Spiritual worlds being higher will evidentially be higher into 2-A, even without taking in context about hypertimeline (which are still accepted based on the worldline just not accepted as 5D rn)

As we know, a world with magicules is more durable. Central/axis/base world is the name of the world/universe.

And this world is filled with magicules.making it the most durable world in existence due to containing the most magicules.



the planet alone is so durable that it can withstand the auras of something that can destroy star systems. Only rocks blow away. (Which is already an equal feat to breakdown nostalgia ) (if both truly were solar system level) which would mean that somehow velzard and guys aura alone (which is the output of magical energy) somehow matches the “greatest energy since the birth of the universe “

Due to being protected by veldanava it cannot be destroyed by anyone at that point. It has relics protecting it, with the relics being even more durable than the universe. As feldway who destroyed the universe could not destroy them.

The main counter argument seemed to be that solar system level destruction was stronger than velgrynd who can destroy weak universes and therefore those universes she can destroy are at max solar system size. Which idk why they are correlated when AP ≠DC. An attack can have more AP and less Range.



Even a semi-spiritual world which does have magicules enhancing it and is therefore enhanced, is considered fragile by velgrynd due to having less magicules than she is used to. By the same logic a physical world would also be weak/small due to not being enhanced whatsoever

So we can conclude that they can destroy weak worlds (physical worlds) due to nothing protecting them as well as thier smaller size (still minimum universal)

As for velgrynd attack being weaker than a “solar system level” attack.said attack contained







1.) Turn null/nhillity collapse (energy that created the world) and can destroy it (tho the amount was obviously less than what created the world)

その理由は、『虚無崩壊』のエネルギーを体内で循環させていたからだ。


ゼギオンの身体中を血潮の如く駆け巡るのは、一歩制御を誤ったならば世界を滅ぼしかねないほど


に、危険極まりない力だった。




2.)diablo skill that reproduces the collapse of a world (universe) (and more turn null) he can destroy the whole labyrinth just by fighting seriously which is 100 dimensions at minimum while even velgrynd destroyed 50. So he alone already has a better feat.

総力戦になったら倒せる可能性もあるのだが、戦場が地上へと移った場合、大いなる犠牲は免れな
い。

それ以前に、迷宮そのものが崩壊しそうだった。そうなれば、被害規模は計り知れないものとなる

だろうし、リムルが帰還した時に悲しむ事になる

ディアブロの〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟は、世界が崩壊する様

を再現して局所的破壊を巻き起こす、究極の幻想・元素系破滅魔法である。能力スキルと技術アー

ツ、そして魔法の複合技で、言うまでもなくディアブロのオリジナルにして最強最悪の奥義であっ
た。




3.)zeigon got a new skill.and zelanus power. zelanus someone who could destroy labyrinth dimensions with pure strength and also comparable to diablo (he is also stronger than true dragons who can destroy weak worlds)Ziegon is also able to create his own world with it being the same nature as a spiritual world.(in other words, it is also durable) enhanced by magicules

迷宮の天井にヒビが入る。


想像を絶する力で、強引に迷宮の階層を破られたのだ。

迷宮内部は、階層ごとに次元層が異なっている。普通ならばこれを破るなど不可能なのだが、現実

離れした力があればその限りではなかった。

現に、天井知らずの威力で階層をぶち抜ける者が、魔物の国にも何名か在籍しているのである。

しかし、目の前で起きている現象は異質だった。単純な力だけで次元を裂いているように、ディー

ノの目には映ったのである。






4.)dino who is veldanava sword and a mediator of the world who protects the world.




All that was then combined into one spell which made it even stronger.This spell was focused on purely on the CENTER . With Diablo spell aiming for LOCAL destruction.this was not a spell based on range. Yet its pure destructive energy allowed it to instantly destroy the place they were aiming for,and continue with enough strength to swallow up the solar system. so it is clearly the durability of the world and not range. AP ≠ Dc. The attack had more AP but less range.




むしろ、ここまで難易度の高い儀式奥義で、ぶっつけ本番にタイミングを合わせろなどと、無茶を


言われずに済んでよかったと胸を撫で下ろしているほどだった。



『わかった。全力でいくぜ!』



そう応じて、ディーノは精神を研ぎ澄ましていく。



最高の一撃を放つべく、意識を集中させて──その瞬間、ディーノの六対十二枚の白と黒の翼が輝


いた。



ディーノの双剣──黄金の剣エクスカリバーと闇銀の剣カリバーンに、絶大な力が収束した。



『天魔双撃覇フォールンクルセイド!!』


白光刃と黒影刃が残光を残し、正四面体の中心にて見事に交差する。



そして──まさにその瞬間、満開の華が同時に咲き狂ったのだ。



『陽光黒炎覇加速励起プロミネンスアクセラレーション──ッ!!』



『──〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟─


『──〝幻想増殖波動嵐デヴァステイターストーム〟!!』


ベニマルが放った陽光黒炎覇加速励起プロミネンスアクセラレーションは、言わずと知れた最強奥


義だ。


ディアブロの〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟は、世界が崩壊する様


を再現して局所的破壊を巻き起こす、究極の幻想・元素系破滅魔法である。能力スキルと技術アー


ツ、そして魔法の複合技で、言うまでもなくディアブロのオリジナルにして最強最悪の奥義であっ
た。


そしてゼギオンの〝幻想増殖波動嵐デヴァステイターストーム〟だが、こちらもゼラヌスから託さ


れた力を取り込んだ事で、ゼギオンの最強奥義であった〝幻想次元波動嵐ディメンションストーム


〟がより凶悪に進化していた。



各々が、各々の持てる最大の力を発揮した形だ。


寸すん分ぶん違たがわず放たれた超絶技の数々が、正しく絶妙なるタイミングにて、ディーノの放


った技に被せるように正四面体の中心部に到達していた。



そこに座する迷宮廃棄部分にて、色無き極光が花開いて、亜空間を美しく彩っている。


それは、手向けに相応しく美しかった。


.ただし、その秘めたる威力は──宇宙開かい闢びゃく以来で最大となる、絶禍の破壊力を生じさせ
るものだった。


威力を逃さぬように構築された正四面体内部を、破壊の災禍が埋め尽くしていく。



────四重複合絶技カルテットスキル:絶撃追憶滅光崩ブレイクダウンノスタルジア────



四名の力が一つに合わさり、かつてない究極の破壊を生み出したのだ。
 
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I'm gonna be debunking and rebunking this whole "TenSura is not a multiverse" mess in detail.

But before that , need a few things. @SeijiSetto or anyone else could you please translate all the Japanese RAWs in this post that are needed (not many are actually needed to translate if you have already translated them before then I will just have to find them and you don’t need to do it again.


What is a Universe

Universes (宇宙) are basically Timelines.

In Volume 21, it's stated that Feldway destroyed the "Universe of the Cardinal World", yet the Cardinal World was not destroyed yet. Later, he talks about the things happening in that destroyed Universe as "In/on that Timeline", and says that when he was transferred (By Chrono Saltation), everything was already over (Feldway destroyed the Universe and therefore the timeline ended)


  • For anyone wondering how we're sure that the "In that Timeline" is referring to "In that Universe of the Cardinal World", it's because the World had not been destroyed yet . As Ciel said, she only witnessed the "End of this World" (The word "this world" [JP: この世界] proves that it's referring to Cardinal World) much later, so the earlier statement must be referring to the Universe of the Cardinal World.
  • for the part where the Universe was destroyed but the World wasn’t , Ciel uses the term "Beyond Time and Space" (時空の彼方), meaning that the "Universe" here refers to an entire Space-Time Continuum.
  • 《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》


    その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。
    シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。
    それがフェルドウェイの望み通りだったのかもわからないが、俺にとってはどうでもいい話である。
    ──その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を
  • 漂うように彷徨さまよい、この世界の終わりを見届けたのです》

In Volume 22, we know that Yuuki and Mai observed the Worlds in the World-Gap (Gap between Worlds), and here, Yuuki says that the Light Spheres they're observing all each "One Universe" otherwise known as a world. Which the narrative Confirms as the correct conclusion.

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ?アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』
Now,for the size of the Universe? Since the literal name isn’t enough to show it, it's literally said that the Space inside a Universe of a World is expanding faster than the Speed of Light. If that's not enough to show that "Universes" are based on the real-life model of a Universe, then I don’t know what is 😭

同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。

Now, the main point of the thread, the whole thing about Parallel Worlds not existing.
Somehow , the points about "Many Parallel/Branching Universes" existing is linked to the point "Contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time can occur".


多元宇宙論のように、新しい宇宙がどんどん生まれており、幾つもの平行世界が多数重なって存在するとするならば、そこに矛盾は存在せず、二人のクロエは同時に出会う事が可能だろう。

And this theory is confirmed twice "apparently" in that same context:

世界はやはり一つしかなく、矛盾の存在を許さぬらしい。
~ Volume 11
ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。

Now, anyone ONLY reading the scans given by the OP would obviously believe that this is it, Hinata's theory is true and the earlier theory is false.

Well,this is wrong. Because this isn't the full context. Let's look at both lines at the same time, and also the line "in-between" that the OP left out (for some reason)



Sure, Hinata confirmed that her theory was correct, twice, but literally, just after Hinata said her theory was correct, the thoughts of someone Chloe says that no, it's simply that the Collapse of the World isn't allowed, but contradictions can exist as long as enough force is there. Otherwise there's no way to prove the existence of the mask.

仮令、自分が犠牲になるのだとしても。しかし問題もある。

それこそが、今クロエが口にした内容なのだ。

(でも、どうやら私の推理は正しかったみたいね……)

世界はやはり一つしかなく、矛盾の存在を許さぬらしい。

(──いいえ、違うわね。矛盾を許さぬのではなく、世界が綻ぶのを許さないだけね。そこに強制力さえあれば、矛盾すらもねじ曲げられるのよ。でなければ、あの〝仮面〟の存在が説明出来ないもの)

ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。

So, how is this possible? Why did Hinata think "her theory was correct", then someone says "no, that’s not entirely true", then it again says "She felt relieved that her theory was correct"?
Well, it's simple. It's a matter of perspective. You see those ( ) braces? Yeah, those are thoughts from a different person, NOT Hinata. Otherwise why would the ( ) text negate the outside text before and after?
Well, let's explain this. We should first know that the whole reason why Hinata even proposed the theory was because she refused to believe a thing, as it gave her despair of not being able to save the different timelines. Chloe even said "There are also problems (with that)". So we can assume that the ( ) thoughts that were contradicting Hinata are Chloe's.


ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。


世界は作り変えられている──と考える方が、まだ理解出来るのである。
そうでなければ、幾つもの世界に、何人もの自分が存在し、今、ヒナタ達が行っている行為も、全てが無駄だという事になってしまうからだ。
救われる世界があれば、滅び去る世界もある──そんな考え方は、ヒナタとしては納得がいかなかったのだ。
だからこそ、今回でクロエのループを終わらせて世界を救うのだと、ヒナタはそう決意していた。
た と え仮令、自分が犠牲になるのだとしても。
しかし問題もある。
それこそが、今クロエが口にした内容なのだ。
(でも、どうやら私の推理は正しかったみたいね……



So yeah, there was never even a REALconfirmation of Hinata being correct. Chloe, the literal person that experienced all those Time Travels herself before, said that Hinata was not entirely correct . Yet it seems that Hinata didn't listen to those ( ) thoughts for some unknown reason, and again came to her own conclusion, finding relief in her own theory that was clearly an Appeal to Emotions.



Potential Counters

  • Regarding a few counters, especially This statement saying that Chloe's time travels always took place on the same time axis.
This is actually a mistranslation. The JP RAWs merely say that the era was the same, not the time axis/time line itself. Which basically just means that she always spent her time (the same 2000 years) in the same era, repeatedly defeating Veldora, helping Luminous, etc. It does NOT mean the timeline was the same.

クロエが飛ばされる時間軸は、決まって同じ時代だったらしい。恐らくそれが、時間跳躍の限界なのだろう。

And that is literally confirmed later by Raphael, when Raphael says it can't analyze Chloe's powers because it can't analyze things (data/information) from different timelines.

As it is confirmed to be an entirely different timeline

《──ッ!! 一つの可能性が浮上しました。アルティメットスキル究 極 能 力『ヨグ・ソトース時空之王』に統合したユニークスキル『トキノタビビト時間旅行』の権能から、個体名:クロエ・オベールが『時間』を操れるようになったのだとすれば──同一時間軸から外れた現象は観測出来ない為、事象の『解析鑑定』も必ず失敗します》

あっ、それか……。

クロエが目覚めた力の正体──それこそが、時を止める、とかそういう感じの力なのか。

ラ フ ァ エ ル智慧之王としても、ユニークスキル『トキノタビビト時間旅行』の仕組みを『解析鑑定』しているらしいのだが、結果が出るにはまだまだ時間がかかりそうだとの事。クロエの『ヨグ・ソトース時空之王』には、『トキノタビビト時間旅行』をそのまま組み込んだだけみたい。

そりゃあ、観測出来ない情報を理解するのは難しいよね。

つまり、それを自分の力としたのは、クロエ自身という事になる。とんでもないなと思うのと同時に、時間を止めるとか反則だろうと叫びたくなった。

そりゃあ、百万倍に引き延ばされた知覚速度でも認識出来ない訳だ。止まった世界の事柄など、時の流れに身を任せている俺達に認識出来る訳がない。

いやいや、待てよ?

それが正しいと仮定するならば、止まった世界に到達出来ない者は、どれだけ強かろうと到達者には及ばないという事になるのでは……?

This literally does not prove anything. Since we know that Hinata didn't listen to the other person before when her theory was negated, it's correct to believe that even this time, she simply believed she was correct because Chloe's consciousness was gone. Obviously, she wouldn't actually know where it had gone since she cannot observe or analyze time. So the reliability of her statements aren’t that good.

Alright so, unless my vision is faulty, is it just me or others can also see that the person (likely Rimuru) is saying that based on "I think"? Even more so when Rimuru can't even analyze phenomena from different timelines, and literally admitted that Chloe's power was from another time line (shown previously), and even that her previous iterations in the loop were different timelines? (Also note that both of these statements are after Raphael told him that it cannot analyze phenomena from different timelines, so yeah, these statements at these instances are reliable, unlike Hinata's).

別の時間軸とはいえ、一度殺された相手には苦手意識を持ってしまうね。帝国と敵対する事になったら、用心するとしよう。
ギィについては、やっぱりかと思っただけで驚きはしなかった。

それよりも、クロノアの死の間際に何が起きたのかだが……それは多分、クロノアの『時間旅行』が発動したのだろう。しかしそれだけでは、クロエの時間軸にたど辿り着けた理由が足りない。

ひょっとすると、俺が何かした可能性もある訳だ。

  • Then there's this statement of Velgrynd saying Parallel Worlds do not exist.
Well, the problem with this one is not, per-say, the translation, but rather the exact Kanji. The JP RAWs term these "Parallel" in this specific scan is "並列", which means "Parallel as in arranged in parallel", like two parallel lines for instance.

Post in thread 'Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translation-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-7013187

同一世界は一つでありパラレルワルド並列世界など存在しないだがしかしアナザワルド別次元世界は存在しているのである


The problem with that, however, is that this kanji is never used in Volume 11. In Volume 11, the kanji used is instead 平行, which instead means simultaneously existing/existing at the same time.

多元宇宙論のように、新しい宇宙がどんどん生まれており、幾つ

もの平行世界が多数重なって存在するとするならば、そこに矛盾は 存在せず、二人のクロエは同時に出会う事が可能だろう。

  • They are called "Cycles".
That literally does not mean anything. A verse can give any name to a Universe (realm, world, timeline, reality, bubbles, spheres, etc.) and it wouldn't matter as long as there's proof that they are different timelines.

Validity of Many-Universe Theory

Now that the contentions are cleanly dealt with, that brings us the question, how true was Chloe's own theory (Many-Universe theory)? Well, it's half true and half false.

Firstly, the fact that Parallel Worlds exist is true, but the fact that contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time is not true. And it's not that "two Chloe(s) can't meet at the same time in the same timeline" but simply "two Chloe(s) can't exist in the same timeline", regardless of what era it is, even if different for both.

For a statement like "Parallel Worlds do not overlap" to even exist, Parallel Worlds need to exist. It's the same as how a statement like "Apples are not green" confirms that apples exist, even if they are not green. Because to conclude a statement, the premise must be true.

Note that the kanji used here is also 平行世界, the same as in Volume 11, so the meaning behind the term "Parallel World" in this specific instance is the same.

文明レベルも様々でそれがどの次元でどの時間軸なのかもヴェルグリンドには推し量るす術べなどないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ

つまり一度行ったからといって同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである

ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば正確な時空間座標を認識出来ているだがしかしそこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳でアルティメットスキル究極能力クトゥグア炎神之王の時空間跳躍でも跳べないのだ

Parallel worlds do exist just not in that sense.

Then there's also the whole thing about a phenomena called "Timeline Synchronization", which basically confirms the existence of multiple timelines for ALL worlds.

Basically, let's say if Individual X from Timeline X in the Cardinal World goes to Timeline X of some random other world. Then, if Individual Y from Timeline Yof the Cardinal World later goes to that same other world, the timelines between both worlds can be synchronized in such a way that Individual X and Individual Y would meet in the same timeline, aka Timeline X, and Individual Y cannot go to a timeline other than Timeline X, or, they can't go to Timeline Ywhile Individual A is in Timeline A.

Or, if in the other world, both go to different timelines, the timelines are synchronized so that they appear in the same timeline. It's something like Steins; Gate's Timeline Shifts, if I had to gave an example, where the timelines change without most realizing it.

This is basically to prevent even two different individuals from different timeline of one world to exist in the same timeline of a different world.

Otherwise contradictions would occur. Like one person asking "Oh hey, did you remember that event in our old world?", and the other person says "No? That never happened!" because the events of their previous timelines may be different.

As for the context of the scan, Amari is a subordinate of Feldway who went from Cardinal World's Timeline A's past the Other World's Timeline A's past. Now, Velgrynd previously went from Cardinal World's Timeline A's future to the Other World's Timeline B's past, but both of them did so at different times with respect to the Cardinal World's Timeline A. However, when the world realized this, a shift occurred and Velgrynd arrived at the Other World's Timeline A's past instead. From there on, since Velgrynd was from the future of the Cardinal World, Amari didn't know that Velgrynd already recognized Feldway as an enemy, as they were allies in the past, but turned enemies in the future.(not to mention she is an ultimate skill user and therefore has greater insight into the worlds laws compared to hinata as well as direct showings of the cosmology)

常に冷静沈着なあ天ま理りま正さひ彦こでさえもこの事態は想定外の出来事であるヴェルグリンドの存在を確信してはいたがまさか対処する間もなく邂逅する事になるとは思いもしなかった

ヴェルグリンドどうして貴様が?

私の名前を知っているのね

当然だ貴様は我等の王たるフェルドウェイ様と手を携え皇帝ルドラの覇道を手助けしているのではなかったのか!?

ああ基軸世界と繋がっているなら時間軸も同期出来そうね

自分の愛する者達を傷付けようとした存在をヴェルグリンドは嫌悪しているのである

そしてあ天ま理りま正さひ彦こはその感情を正確に見抜いている

(最悪だな既に我等は敵認定されているようだだが解せぬフェルドウェイ様とは味方同士のはずだが── いや待てよ?時間軸の同期だと!?)


天ま理りま正さひ彦この恐るべき頭脳が高速で回転するそしてヴェルグリンドが洩もらした言葉の端からおおよその正解を導き出した

(そうかコイツは違う時間軸からやって来たのだこちらの状況を知らぬようだがフェルドウェイ様と皇帝ルドラの話に驚いた様子はなかったという事は現時点までの知識はあると見て間違いないコルヌ様からの命令変更もない点から判断するに未来の時点で何かあったのだろうなそこで恐らく── )

基軸世界からこちらの世界の過去へと跳んだ

── それがあ 天ま 理りま 正さひ 彦こ の出した推論であった

称賛すべき頭脳の冴えである

Then there's also the fact that Yuuki confirmed that Branched Worlds (aka constantly branching parallel worlds) exist by saying that the world he observed was a branched world.

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

Size of the Universe

So there's this whole talk about the Universe not being universal in size. Literally.

There are some "people" (I won't name them) saying that it's not necessary for a thing called a Universe to be Universal in size, BECAUSE Instant Death got downgraded to 3-A despite having statements of Universes existing.

First off, Instant Death had a unique case where there were actual statements that infinite sized universes cannot exist.

Second, we never claimed the Universes were infinite in size. But they are still the size of the Universe and there are no statements otherwise. Per that, the VSBW standards of a realm called "Universe" is treated as being Universal in size:

Source

  • For the 1st and 2nd point, and the first part of the 3rd point, it's literally called "Universe", "Timeline" and "Parallel Universes".
同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。

《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》

その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。

シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。

文明レベルも様々でそれがどの次元でどの時間軸なのかもヴェルグリンドには推し量るす術べなどないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ

つまり一度行ったからといって同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである

ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば正確な時空間座標を認識出来ているだがしかしそこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳でアルティメットスキル究極能力クトゥグア炎神之王の時空間跳躍でも跳べないのだ

  • • For the second part of the 3rd point, they are also depicted as bubbles/photospheres:
Note that the first line starts with "I understood" so it doesn't hold much weight . By all other means and narrative consistency, they are inside a Dimension observing Worlds, in other words, in the World-Gap.

理解出来たのは、マイ達は次元の狭間に漂っているままだということ。

ユウキが謎の『結界』を張っているお陰で、異界でも『魔力感知』が発動していたのだ。

一寸先は闇というが、本当に『結界』の外は未知の世界だった。

遠くで光り輝く虹が視えたりするが、そこに至るまでに何があるのかまったく視えないのである。

ごく近くで虹色の球が膨らみ、弾けて消えた。

何が起きたのかサッパリ不明だが、とんでもない状況なのだろうと推察される。

マイは外の出来事を理解するのを諦めて、『結界』内に視線を戻した

Later they're said that these spheres are "Branched Worlds" (aka branched timelines).

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

As for why they are only observing individual timelines in the World-Gap and not Worlds (a collection of them) in their entirety, it's mainly again the World (System) doing it. We already know from before about how contradictions cannot exist and timeline synchronization happen.

And we also know that one cannot observe phenomena from another timeline (explained above) nor any temporal intervention without the ability to intervene themselves(Temporal Manipulation), which basically mean they cannot observe other timelines because they cannot observe time. They only see the Universe (Photosphere) that is the timeline the world has synchronized to them.

So, by all means, the Cycle of Time is still 2-A. where each Timeline is Universal in size.


Addressing fragile and small worlds.



We know from this scan that Space itself has a property of expansion at FTL rate. This means even a small world can't be less than Universal in size.


Additionally, these aren't really "small" to begin with, but rather ones with less Magicule density.



The whole volume is about Velgrynd traveling to "weak worlds" where the concept of strength is far inferior due to less Magicule density.



just because a world is shown to have interstellar or intergalactic forces does NOT mean its size should be limited to that. Once again, FTL expansion plays a role here.



Now, does that mean all possible worlds are of the same size? Well, no.



First off, Spiritual Worlds are vaster than Physical Worlds.



And no, this doesn't refer to planets and space kinda shit. Spiritual Worlds are literally worlds where Space itself is magical, or infused with magicules. While Physical worlds are those that lack magicules.

Velgrynd went through a multitude of worlds, where she said that there where a few worlds that were weak/small enough that a true dragon could destroy them. With the kanji meaning both at the same time

Let’s check the context of this sentence.



A world without magicules is just that much frailer.

The worlds velgrynd was traveling through were the PHYSICAL worlds that are contained within VAST spiritual worlds.

A physical world is a world without any magicules at all. Rimuru is from our universe, and our universe is a part of a physical world.



Meaning that a true dragon can destroy weak universes. With the smallest and weakest universe known being ours due to being a physical world. A world without magicules
See here


Spiritual worlds are so vast that they can contain physical worlds inside them. Physical worlds are therefore small and weak worlds in comparison to a spiritual one which velgrynd is used to .and not actually small in the sense of being smaller than a universe

We know Velgrynd went to a "weak world" and Timeline synchronization applied there too, meaning these weak worlds also have timelines/cycle of time.



Thus, even worlds as a whole are 2-A.



Whole Spiritual worlds being higher will evidentially be higher into 2-A, even without taking in context about hypertimeline (which are still accepted based on the worldline just not accepted as 5D rn)

As we know, a world with magicules is more durable. Central/axis/base world is the name of the world/universe.

And this world is filled with magicules.making it the most durable world in existence due to containing the most magicules.



the planet alone is so durable that it can withstand the auras of something that can destroy star systems. Only rocks blow away. (Which is already an equal feat to breakdown nostalgia ) (if both truly were solar system level) which would mean that somehow velzard and guys aura alone (which is the output of magical energy) somehow matches the “greatest energy since the birth of the universe “

Due to being protected by veldanava it cannot be destroyed by anyone at that point. It has relics protecting it, with the relics being even more durable than the universe. As feldway who destroyed the universe could not destroy them.

The main counter argument seemed to be that solar system level destruction was stronger than velgrynd who can destroy weak universes and therefore those universes she can destroy are at max solar system size. Which idk why they are correlated when AP ≠DC. An attack can have more AP and less Range.



Even a semi-spiritual world which does have magicules enhancing it and is therefore enhanced, is considered fragile by velgrynd due to having less magicules than she is used to. By the same logic a physical world would also be weak/small due to not being enhanced whatsoever

So we can conclude that they can destroy weak worlds (physical worlds) due to nothing protecting them as well as thier smaller size (still minimum universal)

As for velgrynd attack being weaker than a “solar system level” attack.said attack contained







1.) Turn null/nhillity collapse (energy that created the world) and can destroy it (tho the amount was obviously less than what created the world)

その理由は、『虚無崩壊』のエネルギーを体内で循環させていたからだ。


ゼギオンの身体中を血潮の如く駆け巡るのは、一歩制御を誤ったならば世界を滅ぼしかねないほど


に、危険極まりない力だった。




2.)diablo skill that reproduces the collapse of a world (universe) (and more turn null) he can destroy the whole labyrinth just by fighting seriously which is 100 dimensions at minimum while even velgrynd destroyed 50. So he alone already has a better feat.

総力戦になったら倒せる可能性もあるのだが、戦場が地上へと移った場合、大いなる犠牲は免れな
い。

それ以前に、迷宮そのものが崩壊しそうだった。そうなれば、被害規模は計り知れないものとなる

だろうし、リムルが帰還した時に悲しむ事になる

ディアブロの〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟は、世界が崩壊する様

を再現して局所的破壊を巻き起こす、究極の幻想・元素系破滅魔法である。能力スキルと技術アー

ツ、そして魔法の複合技で、言うまでもなくディアブロのオリジナルにして最強最悪の奥義であっ
た。




3.)zeigon got a new skill.and zelanus power. zelanus someone who could destroy labyrinth dimensions with pure strength and also comparable to diablo (he is also stronger than true dragons who can destroy weak worlds)Ziegon is also able to create his own world with it being the same nature as a spiritual world.(in other words, it is also durable) enhanced by magicules

迷宮の天井にヒビが入る。


想像を絶する力で、強引に迷宮の階層を破られたのだ。

迷宮内部は、階層ごとに次元層が異なっている。普通ならばこれを破るなど不可能なのだが、現実

離れした力があればその限りではなかった。

現に、天井知らずの威力で階層をぶち抜ける者が、魔物の国にも何名か在籍しているのである。

しかし、目の前で起きている現象は異質だった。単純な力だけで次元を裂いているように、ディー

ノの目には映ったのである。






4.)dino who is veldanava sword and a mediator of the world who protects the world.




All that was then combined into one spell which made it even stronger.This spell was focused on purely on the CENTER . With Diablo spell aiming for LOCAL destruction.this was not a spell based on range. Yet its pure destructive energy allowed it to instantly destroy the place they were aiming for,and continue with enough strength to swallow up the solar system. so it is clearly the durability of the world and not range. AP ≠ Dc. The attack had more AP but less range.




むしろ、ここまで難易度の高い儀式奥義で、ぶっつけ本番にタイミングを合わせろなどと、無茶を


言われずに済んでよかったと胸を撫で下ろしているほどだった。



『わかった。全力でいくぜ!』



そう応じて、ディーノは精神を研ぎ澄ましていく。



最高の一撃を放つべく、意識を集中させて──その瞬間、ディーノの六対十二枚の白と黒の翼が輝


いた。



ディーノの双剣──黄金の剣エクスカリバーと闇銀の剣カリバーンに、絶大な力が収束した。



『天魔双撃覇フォールンクルセイド!!』


白光刃と黒影刃が残光を残し、正四面体の中心にて見事に交差する。



そして──まさにその瞬間、満開の華が同時に咲き狂ったのだ。



『陽光黒炎覇加速励起プロミネンスアクセラレーション──ッ!!』



『──〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟─


『──〝幻想増殖波動嵐デヴァステイターストーム〟!!』


ベニマルが放った陽光黒炎覇加速励起プロミネンスアクセラレーションは、言わずと知れた最強奥


義だ。


ディアブロの〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟は、世界が崩壊する様


を再現して局所的破壊を巻き起こす、究極の幻想・元素系破滅魔法である。能力スキルと技術アー


ツ、そして魔法の複合技で、言うまでもなくディアブロのオリジナルにして最強最悪の奥義であっ
た。


そしてゼギオンの〝幻想増殖波動嵐デヴァステイターストーム〟だが、こちらもゼラヌスから託さ


れた力を取り込んだ事で、ゼギオンの最強奥義であった〝幻想次元波動嵐ディメンションストーム


〟がより凶悪に進化していた。



各々が、各々の持てる最大の力を発揮した形だ。


寸すん分ぶん違たがわず放たれた超絶技の数々が、正しく絶妙なるタイミングにて、ディーノの放


った技に被せるように正四面体の中心部に到達していた。



そこに座する迷宮廃棄部分にて、色無き極光が花開いて、亜空間を美しく彩っている。


それは、手向けに相応しく美しかった。


.ただし、その秘めたる威力は──宇宙開かい闢びゃく以来で最大となる、絶禍の破壊力を生じさせ
るものだった。


威力を逃さぬように構築された正四面体内部を、破壊の災禍が埋め尽くしていく。



────四重複合絶技カルテットスキル:絶撃追憶滅光崩ブレイクダウンノスタルジア────



四名の力が一つに合わさり、かつてない究極の破壊を生み出したのだ。
bro cooked left no crumbs
 
I'm gonna be debunking and rebunking this whole "TenSura is not a multiverse" mess in detail.

But before that , need a few things. @SeijiSetto or anyone else could you please translate all the Japanese RAWs in this post that are needed (not many are actually needed to translate if you have already translated them before then I will just have to find them and you don’t need to do it again.


What is a Universe

Universes (宇宙) are basically Timelines.

In Volume 21, it's stated that Feldway destroyed the "Universe of the Cardinal World", yet the Cardinal World was not destroyed yet. Later, he talks about the things happening in that destroyed Universe as "In/on that Timeline", and says that when he was transferred (By Chrono Saltation), everything was already over (Feldway destroyed the Universe and therefore the timeline ended)


  • For anyone wondering how we're sure that the "In that Timeline" is referring to "In that Universe of the Cardinal World", it's because the World had not been destroyed yet . As Ciel said, she only witnessed the "End of this World" (The word "this world" [JP: この世界] proves that it's referring to Cardinal World) much later, so the earlier statement must be referring to the Universe of the Cardinal World.
  • for the part where the Universe was destroyed but the World wasn’t , Ciel uses the term "Beyond Time and Space" (時空の彼方), meaning that the "Universe" here refers to an entire Space-Time Continuum.
  • 《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》


    その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。
    シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。
    それがフェルドウェイの望み通りだったのかもわからないが、俺にとってはどうでもいい話である。
    ──その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を
  • 漂うように彷徨さまよい、この世界の終わりを見届けたのです》

In Volume 22, we know that Yuuki and Mai observed the Worlds in the World-Gap (Gap between Worlds), and here, Yuuki says that the Light Spheres they're observing all each "One Universe" otherwise known as a world. Which the narrative Confirms as the correct conclusion.

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ?アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』
Now,for the size of the Universe? Since the literal name isn’t enough to show it, it's literally said that the Space inside a Universe of a World is expanding faster than the Speed of Light. If that's not enough to show that "Universes" are based on the real-life model of a Universe, then I don’t know what is 😭

同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。

Now, the main point of the thread, the whole thing about Parallel Worlds not existing.
Somehow , the points about "Many Parallel/Branching Universes" existing is linked to the point "Contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time can occur".


多元宇宙論のように、新しい宇宙がどんどん生まれており、幾つもの平行世界が多数重なって存在するとするならば、そこに矛盾は存在せず、二人のクロエは同時に出会う事が可能だろう。

And this theory is confirmed twice "apparently" in that same context:

世界はやはり一つしかなく、矛盾の存在を許さぬらしい。
~ Volume 11
ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。

Now, anyone ONLY reading the scans given by the OP would obviously believe that this is it, Hinata's theory is true and the earlier theory is false.

Well,this is wrong. Because this isn't the full context. Let's look at both lines at the same time, and also the line "in-between" that the OP left out (for some reason)



Sure, Hinata confirmed that her theory was correct, twice, but literally, just after Hinata said her theory was correct, the thoughts of someone Chloe says that no, it's simply that the Collapse of the World isn't allowed, but contradictions can exist as long as enough force is there. Otherwise there's no way to prove the existence of the mask.

仮令、自分が犠牲になるのだとしても。しかし問題もある。

それこそが、今クロエが口にした内容なのだ。

(でも、どうやら私の推理は正しかったみたいね……)

世界はやはり一つしかなく、矛盾の存在を許さぬらしい。

(──いいえ、違うわね。矛盾を許さぬのではなく、世界が綻ぶのを許さないだけね。そこに強制力さえあれば、矛盾すらもねじ曲げられるのよ。でなければ、あの〝仮面〟の存在が説明出来ないもの)

ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。

So, how is this possible? Why did Hinata think "her theory was correct", then someone says "no, that’s not entirely true", then it again says "She felt relieved that her theory was correct"?
Well, it's simple. It's a matter of perspective. You see those ( ) braces? Yeah, those are thoughts from a different person, NOT Hinata. Otherwise why would the ( ) text negate the outside text before and after?
Well, let's explain this. We should first know that the whole reason why Hinata even proposed the theory was because she refused to believe a thing, as it gave her despair of not being able to save the different timelines. Chloe even said "There are also problems (with that)". So we can assume that the ( ) thoughts that were contradicting Hinata are Chloe's.


ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。


世界は作り変えられている──と考える方が、まだ理解出来るのである。
そうでなければ、幾つもの世界に、何人もの自分が存在し、今、ヒナタ達が行っている行為も、全てが無駄だという事になってしまうからだ。
救われる世界があれば、滅び去る世界もある──そんな考え方は、ヒナタとしては納得がいかなかったのだ。
だからこそ、今回でクロエのループを終わらせて世界を救うのだと、ヒナタはそう決意していた。
た と え仮令、自分が犠牲になるのだとしても。
しかし問題もある。
それこそが、今クロエが口にした内容なのだ。
(でも、どうやら私の推理は正しかったみたいね……



So yeah, there was never even a REALconfirmation of Hinata being correct. Chloe, the literal person that experienced all those Time Travels herself before, said that Hinata was not entirely correct . Yet it seems that Hinata didn't listen to those ( ) thoughts for some unknown reason, and again came to her own conclusion, finding relief in her own theory that was clearly an Appeal to Emotions.



Potential Counters

  • Regarding a few counters, especially This statement saying that Chloe's time travels always took place on the same time axis.
This is actually a mistranslation. The JP RAWs merely say that the era was the same, not the time axis/time line itself. Which basically just means that she always spent her time (the same 2000 years) in the same era, repeatedly defeating Veldora, helping Luminous, etc. It does NOT mean the timeline was the same.

クロエが飛ばされる時間軸は、決まって同じ時代だったらしい。恐らくそれが、時間跳躍の限界なのだろう。

And that is literally confirmed later by Raphael, when Raphael says it can't analyze Chloe's powers because it can't analyze things (data/information) from different timelines.

As it is confirmed to be an entirely different timeline

《──ッ!! 一つの可能性が浮上しました。アルティメットスキル究 極 能 力『ヨグ・ソトース時空之王』に統合したユニークスキル『トキノタビビト時間旅行』の権能から、個体名:クロエ・オベールが『時間』を操れるようになったのだとすれば──同一時間軸から外れた現象は観測出来ない為、事象の『解析鑑定』も必ず失敗します》

あっ、それか……。

クロエが目覚めた力の正体──それこそが、時を止める、とかそういう感じの力なのか。

ラ フ ァ エ ル智慧之王としても、ユニークスキル『トキノタビビト時間旅行』の仕組みを『解析鑑定』しているらしいのだが、結果が出るにはまだまだ時間がかかりそうだとの事。クロエの『ヨグ・ソトース時空之王』には、『トキノタビビト時間旅行』をそのまま組み込んだだけみたい。

そりゃあ、観測出来ない情報を理解するのは難しいよね。

つまり、それを自分の力としたのは、クロエ自身という事になる。とんでもないなと思うのと同時に、時間を止めるとか反則だろうと叫びたくなった。

そりゃあ、百万倍に引き延ばされた知覚速度でも認識出来ない訳だ。止まった世界の事柄など、時の流れに身を任せている俺達に認識出来る訳がない。

いやいや、待てよ?

それが正しいと仮定するならば、止まった世界に到達出来ない者は、どれだけ強かろうと到達者には及ばないという事になるのでは……?

This literally does not prove anything. Since we know that Hinata didn't listen to the other person before when her theory was negated, it's correct to believe that even this time, she simply believed she was correct because Chloe's consciousness was gone. Obviously, she wouldn't actually know where it had gone since she cannot observe or analyze time. So the reliability of her statements aren’t that good.

Alright so, unless my vision is faulty, is it just me or others can also see that the person (likely Rimuru) is saying that based on "I think"? Even more so when Rimuru can't even analyze phenomena from different timelines, and literally admitted that Chloe's power was from another time line (shown previously), and even that her previous iterations in the loop were different timelines? (Also note that both of these statements are after Raphael told him that it cannot analyze phenomena from different timelines, so yeah, these statements at these instances are reliable, unlike Hinata's).

別の時間軸とはいえ、一度殺された相手には苦手意識を持ってしまうね。帝国と敵対する事になったら、用心するとしよう。
ギィについては、やっぱりかと思っただけで驚きはしなかった。

それよりも、クロノアの死の間際に何が起きたのかだが……それは多分、クロノアの『時間旅行』が発動したのだろう。しかしそれだけでは、クロエの時間軸にたど辿り着けた理由が足りない。

ひょっとすると、俺が何かした可能性もある訳だ。

  • Then there's this statement of Velgrynd saying Parallel Worlds do not exist.
Well, the problem with this one is not, per-say, the translation, but rather the exact Kanji. The JP RAWs term these "Parallel" in this specific scan is "並列", which means "Parallel as in arranged in parallel", like two parallel lines for instance.

Post in thread 'Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translation-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-7013187

同一世界は一つでありパラレルワルド並列世界など存在しないだがしかしアナザワルド別次元世界は存在しているのである


The problem with that, however, is that this kanji is never used in Volume 11. In Volume 11, the kanji used is instead 平行, which instead means simultaneously existing/existing at the same time.

多元宇宙論のように、新しい宇宙がどんどん生まれており、幾つ

もの平行世界が多数重なって存在するとするならば、そこに矛盾は 存在せず、二人のクロエは同時に出会う事が可能だろう。

  • They are called "Cycles".
That literally does not mean anything. A verse can give any name to a Universe (realm, world, timeline, reality, bubbles, spheres, etc.) and it wouldn't matter as long as there's proof that they are different timelines.

Validity of Many-Universe Theory

Now that the contentions are cleanly dealt with, that brings us the question, how true was Chloe's own theory (Many-Universe theory)? Well, it's half true and half false.

Firstly, the fact that Parallel Worlds exist is true, but the fact that contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time is not true. And it's not that "two Chloe(s) can't meet at the same time in the same timeline" but simply "two Chloe(s) can't exist in the same timeline", regardless of what era it is, even if different for both.

For a statement like "Parallel Worlds do not overlap" to even exist, Parallel Worlds need to exist. It's the same as how a statement like "Apples are not green" confirms that apples exist, even if they are not green. Because to conclude a statement, the premise must be true.

Note that the kanji used here is also 平行世界, the same as in Volume 11, so the meaning behind the term "Parallel World" in this specific instance is the same.

文明レベルも様々でそれがどの次元でどの時間軸なのかもヴェルグリンドには推し量るす術べなどないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ

つまり一度行ったからといって同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである

ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば正確な時空間座標を認識出来ているだがしかしそこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳でアルティメットスキル究極能力クトゥグア炎神之王の時空間跳躍でも跳べないのだ

Parallel worlds do exist just not in that sense.

Then there's also the whole thing about a phenomena called "Timeline Synchronization", which basically confirms the existence of multiple timelines for ALL worlds.

Basically, let's say if Individual X from Timeline X in the Cardinal World goes to Timeline X of some random other world. Then, if Individual Y from Timeline Yof the Cardinal World later goes to that same other world, the timelines between both worlds can be synchronized in such a way that Individual X and Individual Y would meet in the same timeline, aka Timeline X, and Individual Y cannot go to a timeline other than Timeline X, or, they can't go to Timeline Ywhile Individual A is in Timeline A.

Or, if in the other world, both go to different timelines, the timelines are synchronized so that they appear in the same timeline. It's something like Steins; Gate's Timeline Shifts, if I had to gave an example, where the timelines change without most realizing it.

This is basically to prevent even two different individuals from different timeline of one world to exist in the same timeline of a different world.

Otherwise contradictions would occur. Like one person asking "Oh hey, did you remember that event in our old world?", and the other person says "No? That never happened!" because the events of their previous timelines may be different.

As for the context of the scan, Amari is a subordinate of Feldway who went from Cardinal World's Timeline A's past the Other World's Timeline A's past. Now, Velgrynd previously went from Cardinal World's Timeline A's future to the Other World's Timeline B's past, but both of them did so at different times with respect to the Cardinal World's Timeline A. However, when the world realized this, a shift occurred and Velgrynd arrived at the Other World's Timeline A's past instead. From there on, since Velgrynd was from the future of the Cardinal World, Amari didn't know that Velgrynd already recognized Feldway as an enemy, as they were allies in the past, but turned enemies in the future.(not to mention she is an ultimate skill user and therefore has greater insight into the worlds laws compared to hinata as well as direct showings of the cosmology)

常に冷静沈着なあ天ま理りま正さひ彦こでさえもこの事態は想定外の出来事であるヴェルグリンドの存在を確信してはいたがまさか対処する間もなく邂逅する事になるとは思いもしなかった

ヴェルグリンドどうして貴様が?

私の名前を知っているのね

当然だ貴様は我等の王たるフェルドウェイ様と手を携え皇帝ルドラの覇道を手助けしているのではなかったのか!?

ああ基軸世界と繋がっているなら時間軸も同期出来そうね

自分の愛する者達を傷付けようとした存在をヴェルグリンドは嫌悪しているのである

そしてあ天ま理りま正さひ彦こはその感情を正確に見抜いている

(最悪だな既に我等は敵認定されているようだだが解せぬフェルドウェイ様とは味方同士のはずだが── いや待てよ?時間軸の同期だと!?)


天ま理りま正さひ彦この恐るべき頭脳が高速で回転するそしてヴェルグリンドが洩もらした言葉の端からおおよその正解を導き出した

(そうかコイツは違う時間軸からやって来たのだこちらの状況を知らぬようだがフェルドウェイ様と皇帝ルドラの話に驚いた様子はなかったという事は現時点までの知識はあると見て間違いないコルヌ様からの命令変更もない点から判断するに未来の時点で何かあったのだろうなそこで恐らく── )

基軸世界からこちらの世界の過去へと跳んだ

── それがあ 天ま 理りま 正さひ 彦こ の出した推論であった

称賛すべき頭脳の冴えである

Then there's also the fact that Yuuki confirmed that Branched Worlds (aka constantly branching parallel worlds) exist by saying that the world he observed was a branched world.

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

Size of the Universe

So there's this whole talk about the Universe not being universal in size. Literally.

There are some "people" (I won't name them) saying that it's not necessary for a thing called a Universe to be Universal in size, BECAUSE Instant Death got downgraded to 3-A despite having statements of Universes existing.

First off, Instant Death had a unique case where there were actual statements that infinite sized universes cannot exist.

Second, we never claimed the Universes were infinite in size. But they are still the size of the Universe and there are no statements otherwise. Per that, the VSBW standards of a realm called "Universe" is treated as being Universal in size:

Source

  • For the 1st and 2nd point, and the first part of the 3rd point, it's literally called "Universe", "Timeline" and "Parallel Universes".
同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。

《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》

その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。

シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。

文明レベルも様々でそれがどの次元でどの時間軸なのかもヴェルグリンドには推し量るす術べなどないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ

つまり一度行ったからといって同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである

ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば正確な時空間座標を認識出来ているだがしかしそこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳でアルティメットスキル究極能力クトゥグア炎神之王の時空間跳躍でも跳べないのだ

  • • For the second part of the 3rd point, they are also depicted as bubbles/photospheres:
Note that the first line starts with "I understood" so it doesn't hold much weight . By all other means and narrative consistency, they are inside a Dimension observing Worlds, in other words, in the World-Gap.

理解出来たのは、マイ達は次元の狭間に漂っているままだということ。

ユウキが謎の『結界』を張っているお陰で、異界でも『魔力感知』が発動していたのだ。

一寸先は闇というが、本当に『結界』の外は未知の世界だった。

遠くで光り輝く虹が視えたりするが、そこに至るまでに何があるのかまったく視えないのである。

ごく近くで虹色の球が膨らみ、弾けて消えた。

何が起きたのかサッパリ不明だが、とんでもない状況なのだろうと推察される。

マイは外の出来事を理解するのを諦めて、『結界』内に視線を戻した

Later they're said that these spheres are "Branched Worlds" (aka branched timelines).

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

As for why they are only observing individual timelines in the World-Gap and not Worlds (a collection of them) in their entirety, it's mainly again the World (System) doing it. We already know from before about how contradictions cannot exist and timeline synchronization happen.

And we also know that one cannot observe phenomena from another timeline (explained above) nor any temporal intervention without the ability to intervene themselves(Temporal Manipulation), which basically mean they cannot observe other timelines because they cannot observe time. They only see the Universe (Photosphere) that is the timeline the world has synchronized to them.

So, by all means, the Cycle of Time is still 2-A. where each Timeline is Universal in size.


Addressing fragile and small worlds.



We know from this scan that Space itself has a property of expansion at FTL rate. This means even a small world can't be less than Universal in size.

the fact that the words used are "even in the" means they apply to other universes too
the ftl expansion is due to co-relation between time and space (time flows and space spreads). So since time and space exist in all worlds (suspended world stops time and space across all worlds), ftl expansion applies to all worlds too

Additionally, these aren't really "small" to begin with, but rather ones with less Magicule density.



The whole volume is about Velgrynd traveling to "weak worlds" where the concept of strength is far inferior due to less Magicule density.



just because a world is shown to have interstellar or intergalactic forces does NOT mean its size should be limited to that. Once again, FTL expansion plays a role here.



Now, does that mean all possible worlds are of the same size? Well, no.



First off, Spiritual Worlds are vaster than Physical Worlds.



And no, this doesn't refer to planets and space kinda shit. Spiritual Worlds are literally worlds where Space itself is magical, or infused with magicules. While Physical worlds are those that lack magicules.

Velgrynd went through a multitude of worlds, where she said that there where a few worlds that were weak/small enough that a true dragon could destroy them. With the kanji meaning both at the same time

Let’s check the context of this sentence.



A world without magicules is just that much frailer.

The worlds velgrynd was traveling through were the PHYSICAL worlds that are contained within VAST spiritual worlds.

A physical world is a world without any magicules at all. Rimuru is from our universe, and our universe is a part of a physical world.



Meaning that a true dragon can destroy weak universes. With the smallest and weakest universe known being ours due to being a physical world. A world without magicules
See here


Spiritual worlds are so vast that they can contain physical worlds inside them. Physical worlds are therefore small and weak worlds in comparison to a spiritual one which velgrynd is used to .and not actually small in the sense of being smaller than a universe

We know Velgrynd went to a "weak world" and Timeline synchronization applied there too, meaning these weak worlds also have timelines/cycle of time.



Thus, even worlds as a whole are 2-A.



Whole Spiritual worlds being higher will evidentially be higher into 2-A, even without taking in context about hypertimeline (which are still accepted based on the worldline just not accepted as 5D rn)

As we know, a world with magicules is more durable. Central/axis/base world is the name of the world/universe.

And this world is filled with magicules.making it the most durable world in existence due to containing the most magicules.



the planet alone is so durable that it can withstand the auras of something that can destroy star systems. Only rocks blow away. (Which is already an equal feat to breakdown nostalgia ) (if both truly were solar system level) which would mean that somehow velzard and guys aura alone (which is the output of magical energy) somehow matches the “greatest energy since the birth of the universe “

Due to being protected by veldanava it cannot be destroyed by anyone at that point. It has relics protecting it, with the relics being even more durable than the universe. As feldway who destroyed the universe could not destroy them.

The main counter argument seemed to be that solar system level destruction was stronger than velgrynd who can destroy weak universes and therefore those universes she can destroy are at max solar system size. Which idk why they are correlated when AP ≠DC. An attack can have more AP and less Range.



Even a semi-spiritual world which does have magicules enhancing it and is therefore enhanced, is considered fragile by velgrynd due to having less magicules than she is used to. By the same logic a physical world would also be weak/small due to not being enhanced whatsoever

So we can conclude that they can destroy weak worlds (physical worlds) due to nothing protecting them as well as thier smaller size (still minimum universal)

As for velgrynd attack being weaker than a “solar system level” attack.said attack contained







1.) Turn null/nhillity collapse (energy that created the world) and can destroy it (tho the amount was obviously less than what created the world)

その理由は、『虚無崩壊』のエネルギーを体内で循環させていたからだ。


ゼギオンの身体中を血潮の如く駆け巡るのは、一歩制御を誤ったならば世界を滅ぼしかねないほど


に、危険極まりない力だった。




2.)diablo skill that reproduces the collapse of a world (universe) (and more turn null) he can destroy the whole labyrinth just by fighting seriously which is 100 dimensions at minimum while even velgrynd destroyed 50. So he alone already has a better feat.

総力戦になったら倒せる可能性もあるのだが、戦場が地上へと移った場合、大いなる犠牲は免れな
い。

それ以前に、迷宮そのものが崩壊しそうだった。そうなれば、被害規模は計り知れないものとなる

だろうし、リムルが帰還した時に悲しむ事になる

ディアブロの〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟は、世界が崩壊する様

を再現して局所的破壊を巻き起こす、究極の幻想・元素系破滅魔法である。能力スキルと技術アー

ツ、そして魔法の複合技で、言うまでもなくディアブロのオリジナルにして最強最悪の奥義であっ
た。




3.)zeigon got a new skill.and zelanus power. zelanus someone who could destroy labyrinth dimensions with pure strength and also comparable to diablo (he is also stronger than true dragons who can destroy weak worlds)Ziegon is also able to create his own world with it being the same nature as a spiritual world.(in other words, it is also durable) enhanced by magicules

迷宮の天井にヒビが入る。


想像を絶する力で、強引に迷宮の階層を破られたのだ。

迷宮内部は、階層ごとに次元層が異なっている。普通ならばこれを破るなど不可能なのだが、現実

離れした力があればその限りではなかった。

現に、天井知らずの威力で階層をぶち抜ける者が、魔物の国にも何名か在籍しているのである。

しかし、目の前で起きている現象は異質だった。単純な力だけで次元を裂いているように、ディー

ノの目には映ったのである。






4.)dino who is veldanava sword and a mediator of the world who protects the world.




All that was then combined into one spell which made it even stronger.This spell was focused on purely on the CENTER . With Diablo spell aiming for LOCAL destruction.this was not a spell based on range. Yet its pure destructive energy allowed it to instantly destroy the place they were aiming for,and continue with enough strength to swallow up the solar system. so it is clearly the durability of the world and not range. AP ≠ Dc. The attack had more AP but less range.




むしろ、ここまで難易度の高い儀式奥義で、ぶっつけ本番にタイミングを合わせろなどと、無茶を


言われずに済んでよかったと胸を撫で下ろしているほどだった。



『わかった。全力でいくぜ!』



そう応じて、ディーノは精神を研ぎ澄ましていく。



最高の一撃を放つべく、意識を集中させて──その瞬間、ディーノの六対十二枚の白と黒の翼が輝


いた。



ディーノの双剣──黄金の剣エクスカリバーと闇銀の剣カリバーンに、絶大な力が収束した。



『天魔双撃覇フォールンクルセイド!!』


白光刃と黒影刃が残光を残し、正四面体の中心にて見事に交差する。



そして──まさにその瞬間、満開の華が同時に咲き狂ったのだ。



『陽光黒炎覇加速励起プロミネンスアクセラレーション──ッ!!』



『──〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟─


『──〝幻想増殖波動嵐デヴァステイターストーム〟!!』


ベニマルが放った陽光黒炎覇加速励起プロミネンスアクセラレーションは、言わずと知れた最強奥


義だ。


ディアブロの〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟は、世界が崩壊する様


を再現して局所的破壊を巻き起こす、究極の幻想・元素系破滅魔法である。能力スキルと技術アー


ツ、そして魔法の複合技で、言うまでもなくディアブロのオリジナルにして最強最悪の奥義であっ
た。


そしてゼギオンの〝幻想増殖波動嵐デヴァステイターストーム〟だが、こちらもゼラヌスから託さ


れた力を取り込んだ事で、ゼギオンの最強奥義であった〝幻想次元波動嵐ディメンションストーム


〟がより凶悪に進化していた。



各々が、各々の持てる最大の力を発揮した形だ。


寸すん分ぶん違たがわず放たれた超絶技の数々が、正しく絶妙なるタイミングにて、ディーノの放


った技に被せるように正四面体の中心部に到達していた。



そこに座する迷宮廃棄部分にて、色無き極光が花開いて、亜空間を美しく彩っている。


それは、手向けに相応しく美しかった。


.ただし、その秘めたる威力は──宇宙開かい闢びゃく以来で最大となる、絶禍の破壊力を生じさせ
るものだった。


威力を逃さぬように構築された正四面体内部を、破壊の災禍が埋め尽くしていく。



────四重複合絶技カルテットスキル:絶撃追憶滅光崩ブレイクダウンノスタルジア────



四名の力が一つに合わさり、かつてない究極の破壊を生み出したのだ。
The Tensura Situation just got MORE INSANE
 
I'm gonna be debunking and rebunking this whole "TenSura is not a multiverse" mess in detail.

But before that , need a few things. @SeijiSetto or anyone else could you please translate all the Japanese RAWs in this post that are needed (not many are actually needed to translate if you have already translated them before then I will just have to find them and you don’t need to do it again.


What is a Universe

Universes (宇宙) are basically Timelines.

In Volume 21, it's stated that Feldway destroyed the "Universe of the Cardinal World", yet the Cardinal World was not destroyed yet. Later, he talks about the things happening in that destroyed Universe as "In/on that Timeline", and says that when he was transferred (By Chrono Saltation), everything was already over (Feldway destroyed the Universe and therefore the timeline ended)


  • For anyone wondering how we're sure that the "In that Timeline" is referring to "In that Universe of the Cardinal World", it's because the World had not been destroyed yet . As Ciel said, she only witnessed the "End of this World" (The word "this world" [JP: この世界] proves that it's referring to Cardinal World) much later, so the earlier statement must be referring to the Universe of the Cardinal World.
  • for the part where the Universe was destroyed but the World wasn’t , Ciel uses the term "Beyond Time and Space" (時空の彼方), meaning that the "Universe" here refers to an entire Space-Time Continuum.
  • 《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》


    その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。
    シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。
    それがフェルドウェイの望み通りだったのかもわからないが、俺にとってはどうでもいい話である。
    ──その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を
  • 漂うように彷徨さまよい、この世界の終わりを見届けたのです》

In Volume 22, we know that Yuuki and Mai observed the Worlds in the World-Gap (Gap between Worlds), and here, Yuuki says that the Light Spheres they're observing all each "One Universe" otherwise known as a world. Which the narrative Confirms as the correct conclusion.

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ?アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』
Now,for the size of the Universe? Since the literal name isn’t enough to show it, it's literally said that the Space inside a Universe of a World is expanding faster than the Speed of Light. If that's not enough to show that "Universes" are based on the real-life model of a Universe, then I don’t know what is 😭

同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。

Now, the main point of the thread, the whole thing about Parallel Worlds not existing.
Somehow , the points about "Many Parallel/Branching Universes" existing is linked to the point "Contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time can occur".


多元宇宙論のように、新しい宇宙がどんどん生まれており、幾つもの平行世界が多数重なって存在するとするならば、そこに矛盾は存在せず、二人のクロエは同時に出会う事が可能だろう。

And this theory is confirmed twice "apparently" in that same context:

世界はやはり一つしかなく、矛盾の存在を許さぬらしい。
~ Volume 11
ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。

Now, anyone ONLY reading the scans given by the OP would obviously believe that this is it, Hinata's theory is true and the earlier theory is false.

Well,this is wrong. Because this isn't the full context. Let's look at both lines at the same time, and also the line "in-between" that the OP left out (for some reason)



Sure, Hinata confirmed that her theory was correct, twice, but literally, just after Hinata said her theory was correct, the thoughts of someone Chloe says that no, it's simply that the Collapse of the World isn't allowed, but contradictions can exist as long as enough force is there. Otherwise there's no way to prove the existence of the mask.

仮令、自分が犠牲になるのだとしても。しかし問題もある。

それこそが、今クロエが口にした内容なのだ。

(でも、どうやら私の推理は正しかったみたいね……)

世界はやはり一つしかなく、矛盾の存在を許さぬらしい。

(──いいえ、違うわね。矛盾を許さぬのではなく、世界が綻ぶのを許さないだけね。そこに強制力さえあれば、矛盾すらもねじ曲げられるのよ。でなければ、あの〝仮面〟の存在が説明出来ないもの)

ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。

So, how is this possible? Why did Hinata think "her theory was correct", then someone says "no, that’s not entirely true", then it again says "She felt relieved that her theory was correct"?
Well, it's simple. It's a matter of perspective. You see those ( ) braces? Yeah, those are thoughts from a different person, NOT Hinata. Otherwise why would the ( ) text negate the outside text before and after?
Well, let's explain this. We should first know that the whole reason why Hinata even proposed the theory was because she refused to believe a thing, as it gave her despair of not being able to save the different timelines. Chloe even said "There are also problems (with that)". So we can assume that the ( ) thoughts that were contradicting Hinata are Chloe's.


ヒナタは自分の推論の正しさに安堵すると同時、この先の展開を思ってあん暗たん澹たる気持ちになった。この先は完全に、他人任せの運頼みになると悟ったのだ。


世界は作り変えられている──と考える方が、まだ理解出来るのである。
そうでなければ、幾つもの世界に、何人もの自分が存在し、今、ヒナタ達が行っている行為も、全てが無駄だという事になってしまうからだ。
救われる世界があれば、滅び去る世界もある──そんな考え方は、ヒナタとしては納得がいかなかったのだ。
だからこそ、今回でクロエのループを終わらせて世界を救うのだと、ヒナタはそう決意していた。
た と え仮令、自分が犠牲になるのだとしても。
しかし問題もある。
それこそが、今クロエが口にした内容なのだ。
(でも、どうやら私の推理は正しかったみたいね……



So yeah, there was never even a REALconfirmation of Hinata being correct. Chloe, the literal person that experienced all those Time Travels herself before, said that Hinata was not entirely correct . Yet it seems that Hinata didn't listen to those ( ) thoughts for some unknown reason, and again came to her own conclusion, finding relief in her own theory that was clearly an Appeal to Emotions.



Potential Counters

  • Regarding a few counters, especially This statement saying that Chloe's time travels always took place on the same time axis.
This is actually a mistranslation. The JP RAWs merely say that the era was the same, not the time axis/time line itself. Which basically just means that she always spent her time (the same 2000 years) in the same era, repeatedly defeating Veldora, helping Luminous, etc. It does NOT mean the timeline was the same.

クロエが飛ばされる時間軸は、決まって同じ時代だったらしい。恐らくそれが、時間跳躍の限界なのだろう。

And that is literally confirmed later by Raphael, when Raphael says it can't analyze Chloe's powers because it can't analyze things (data/information) from different timelines.

As it is confirmed to be an entirely different timeline

《──ッ!! 一つの可能性が浮上しました。アルティメットスキル究 極 能 力『ヨグ・ソトース時空之王』に統合したユニークスキル『トキノタビビト時間旅行』の権能から、個体名:クロエ・オベールが『時間』を操れるようになったのだとすれば──同一時間軸から外れた現象は観測出来ない為、事象の『解析鑑定』も必ず失敗します》

あっ、それか……。

クロエが目覚めた力の正体──それこそが、時を止める、とかそういう感じの力なのか。

ラ フ ァ エ ル智慧之王としても、ユニークスキル『トキノタビビト時間旅行』の仕組みを『解析鑑定』しているらしいのだが、結果が出るにはまだまだ時間がかかりそうだとの事。クロエの『ヨグ・ソトース時空之王』には、『トキノタビビト時間旅行』をそのまま組み込んだだけみたい。

そりゃあ、観測出来ない情報を理解するのは難しいよね。

つまり、それを自分の力としたのは、クロエ自身という事になる。とんでもないなと思うのと同時に、時間を止めるとか反則だろうと叫びたくなった。

そりゃあ、百万倍に引き延ばされた知覚速度でも認識出来ない訳だ。止まった世界の事柄など、時の流れに身を任せている俺達に認識出来る訳がない。

いやいや、待てよ?

それが正しいと仮定するならば、止まった世界に到達出来ない者は、どれだけ強かろうと到達者には及ばないという事になるのでは……?

This literally does not prove anything. Since we know that Hinata didn't listen to the other person before when her theory was negated, it's correct to believe that even this time, she simply believed she was correct because Chloe's consciousness was gone. Obviously, she wouldn't actually know where it had gone since she cannot observe or analyze time. So the reliability of her statements aren’t that good.

Alright so, unless my vision is faulty, is it just me or others can also see that the person (likely Rimuru) is saying that based on "I think"? Even more so when Rimuru can't even analyze phenomena from different timelines, and literally admitted that Chloe's power was from another time line (shown previously), and even that her previous iterations in the loop were different timelines? (Also note that both of these statements are after Raphael told him that it cannot analyze phenomena from different timelines, so yeah, these statements at these instances are reliable, unlike Hinata's).

別の時間軸とはいえ、一度殺された相手には苦手意識を持ってしまうね。帝国と敵対する事になったら、用心するとしよう。
ギィについては、やっぱりかと思っただけで驚きはしなかった。

それよりも、クロノアの死の間際に何が起きたのかだが……それは多分、クロノアの『時間旅行』が発動したのだろう。しかしそれだけでは、クロエの時間軸にたど辿り着けた理由が足りない。

ひょっとすると、俺が何かした可能性もある訳だ。

  • Then there's this statement of Velgrynd saying Parallel Worlds do not exist.
Well, the problem with this one is not, per-say, the translation, but rather the exact Kanji. The JP RAWs term these "Parallel" in this specific scan is "並列", which means "Parallel as in arranged in parallel", like two parallel lines for instance.

Post in thread 'Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translation-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-7013187

同一世界は一つでありパラレルワルド並列世界など存在しないだがしかしアナザワルド別次元世界は存在しているのである


The problem with that, however, is that this kanji is never used in Volume 11. In Volume 11, the kanji used is instead 平行, which instead means simultaneously existing/existing at the same time.

多元宇宙論のように、新しい宇宙がどんどん生まれており、幾つ

もの平行世界が多数重なって存在するとするならば、そこに矛盾は 存在せず、二人のクロエは同時に出会う事が可能だろう。

  • They are called "Cycles".
That literally does not mean anything. A verse can give any name to a Universe (realm, world, timeline, reality, bubbles, spheres, etc.) and it wouldn't matter as long as there's proof that they are different timelines.

Validity of Many-Universe Theory

Now that the contentions are cleanly dealt with, that brings us the question, how true was Chloe's own theory (Many-Universe theory)? Well, it's half true and half false.

Firstly, the fact that Parallel Worlds exist is true, but the fact that contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time is not true. And it's not that "two Chloe(s) can't meet at the same time in the same timeline" but simply "two Chloe(s) can't exist in the same timeline", regardless of what era it is, even if different for both.

For a statement like "Parallel Worlds do not overlap" to even exist, Parallel Worlds need to exist. It's the same as how a statement like "Apples are not green" confirms that apples exist, even if they are not green. Because to conclude a statement, the premise must be true.

Note that the kanji used here is also 平行世界, the same as in Volume 11, so the meaning behind the term "Parallel World" in this specific instance is the same.

文明レベルも様々でそれがどの次元でどの時間軸なのかもヴェルグリンドには推し量るす術べなどないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ

つまり一度行ったからといって同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである

ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば正確な時空間座標を認識出来ているだがしかしそこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳でアルティメットスキル究極能力クトゥグア炎神之王の時空間跳躍でも跳べないのだ

Parallel worlds do exist just not in that sense.

Then there's also the whole thing about a phenomena called "Timeline Synchronization", which basically confirms the existence of multiple timelines for ALL worlds.

Basically, let's say if Individual X from Timeline X in the Cardinal World goes to Timeline X of some random other world. Then, if Individual Y from Timeline Yof the Cardinal World later goes to that same other world, the timelines between both worlds can be synchronized in such a way that Individual X and Individual Y would meet in the same timeline, aka Timeline X, and Individual Y cannot go to a timeline other than Timeline X, or, they can't go to Timeline Ywhile Individual A is in Timeline A.

Or, if in the other world, both go to different timelines, the timelines are synchronized so that they appear in the same timeline. It's something like Steins; Gate's Timeline Shifts, if I had to gave an example, where the timelines change without most realizing it.

This is basically to prevent even two different individuals from different timeline of one world to exist in the same timeline of a different world.

Otherwise contradictions would occur. Like one person asking "Oh hey, did you remember that event in our old world?", and the other person says "No? That never happened!" because the events of their previous timelines may be different.

As for the context of the scan, Amari is a subordinate of Feldway who went from Cardinal World's Timeline A's past the Other World's Timeline A's past. Now, Velgrynd previously went from Cardinal World's Timeline A's future to the Other World's Timeline B's past, but both of them did so at different times with respect to the Cardinal World's Timeline A. However, when the world realized this, a shift occurred and Velgrynd arrived at the Other World's Timeline A's past instead. From there on, since Velgrynd was from the future of the Cardinal World, Amari didn't know that Velgrynd already recognized Feldway as an enemy, as they were allies in the past, but turned enemies in the future.(not to mention she is an ultimate skill user and therefore has greater insight into the worlds laws compared to hinata as well as direct showings of the cosmology)

常に冷静沈着なあ天ま理りま正さひ彦こでさえもこの事態は想定外の出来事であるヴェルグリンドの存在を確信してはいたがまさか対処する間もなく邂逅する事になるとは思いもしなかった

ヴェルグリンドどうして貴様が?

私の名前を知っているのね

当然だ貴様は我等の王たるフェルドウェイ様と手を携え皇帝ルドラの覇道を手助けしているのではなかったのか!?

ああ基軸世界と繋がっているなら時間軸も同期出来そうね

自分の愛する者達を傷付けようとした存在をヴェルグリンドは嫌悪しているのである

そしてあ天ま理りま正さひ彦こはその感情を正確に見抜いている

(最悪だな既に我等は敵認定されているようだだが解せぬフェルドウェイ様とは味方同士のはずだが── いや待てよ?時間軸の同期だと!?)


天ま理りま正さひ彦この恐るべき頭脳が高速で回転するそしてヴェルグリンドが洩もらした言葉の端からおおよその正解を導き出した

(そうかコイツは違う時間軸からやって来たのだこちらの状況を知らぬようだがフェルドウェイ様と皇帝ルドラの話に驚いた様子はなかったという事は現時点までの知識はあると見て間違いないコルヌ様からの命令変更もない点から判断するに未来の時点で何かあったのだろうなそこで恐らく── )

基軸世界からこちらの世界の過去へと跳んだ

── それがあ 天ま 理りま 正さひ 彦こ の出した推論であった

称賛すべき頭脳の冴えである

Then there's also the fact that Yuuki confirmed that Branched Worlds (aka constantly branching parallel worlds) exist by saying that the world he observed was a branched world.

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

Size of the Universe

So there's this whole talk about the Universe not being universal in size. Literally.

There are some "people" (I won't name them) saying that it's not necessary for a thing called a Universe to be Universal in size, BECAUSE Instant Death got downgraded to 3-A despite having statements of Universes existing.

First off, Instant Death had a unique case where there were actual statements that infinite sized universes cannot exist.

Second, we never claimed the Universes were infinite in size. But they are still the size of the Universe and there are no statements otherwise. Per that, the VSBW standards of a realm called "Universe" is treated as being Universal in size:

Source

  • For the 1st and 2nd point, and the first part of the 3rd point, it's literally called "Universe", "Timeline" and "Parallel Universes".
同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。

《その通りです。フェルドウェイの〝時空跳激震覇クロノサルテーション〟で、我々は時空の彼方へと跳ばされました。そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりましたが、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。フェルドウェイの力では、基軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》

その時間軸で何が起きたのか、正確にはわかっていない。

シエルさんが跳ばされた時点で、全ての物事は終わっていたからだ。

文明レベルも様々でそれがどの次元でどの時間軸なのかもヴェルグリンドには推し量るす術べなどないまた平行世界が重なり合って存在する事はないので同一時間軸に同じ存在が重複するのは不可能だ

つまり一度行ったからといって同じ場所に行けるという訳ではないのである

ヴェルグリンドが存在する次元の同一時間帯ならば正確な時空間座標を認識出来ているだがしかしそこにはその時点のヴェルグリンドが存在している訳でアルティメットスキル究極能力クトゥグア炎神之王の時空間跳躍でも跳べないのだ

  • • For the second part of the 3rd point, they are also depicted as bubbles/photospheres:
Note that the first line starts with "I understood" so it doesn't hold much weight . By all other means and narrative consistency, they are inside a Dimension observing Worlds, in other words, in the World-Gap.

理解出来たのは、マイ達は次元の狭間に漂っているままだということ。

ユウキが謎の『結界』を張っているお陰で、異界でも『魔力感知』が発動していたのだ。

一寸先は闇というが、本当に『結界』の外は未知の世界だった。

遠くで光り輝く虹が視えたりするが、そこに至るまでに何があるのかまったく視えないのである。

ごく近くで虹色の球が膨らみ、弾けて消えた。

何が起きたのかサッパリ不明だが、とんでもない状況なのだろうと推察される。

マイは外の出来事を理解するのを諦めて、『結界』内に視線を戻した

Later they're said that these spheres are "Branched Worlds" (aka branched timelines).

『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

As for why they are only observing individual timelines in the World-Gap and not Worlds (a collection of them) in their entirety, it's mainly again the World (System) doing it. We already know from before about how contradictions cannot exist and timeline synchronization happen.

And we also know that one cannot observe phenomena from another timeline (explained above) nor any temporal intervention without the ability to intervene themselves(Temporal Manipulation), which basically mean they cannot observe other timelines because they cannot observe time. They only see the Universe (Photosphere) that is the timeline the world has synchronized to them.

So, by all means, the Cycle of Time is still 2-A. where each Timeline is Universal in size.


Addressing fragile and small worlds.



We know from this scan that Space itself has a property of expansion at FTL rate. This means even a small world can't be less than Universal in size.

the fact that the words used are "even in the" means they apply to other universes too
the ftl expansion is due to co-relation between time and space (time flows and space spreads). So since time and space exist in all worlds (suspended world stops time and space across all worlds), ftl expansion applies to all worlds too

Additionally, these aren't really "small" to begin with, but rather ones with less Magicule density.



The whole volume is about Velgrynd traveling to "weak worlds" where the concept of strength is far inferior due to less Magicule density.



just because a world is shown to have interstellar or intergalactic forces does NOT mean its size should be limited to that. Once again, FTL expansion plays a role here.



Now, does that mean all possible worlds are of the same size? Well, no.



First off, Spiritual Worlds are vaster than Physical Worlds.



And no, this doesn't refer to planets and space kinda shit. Spiritual Worlds are literally worlds where Space itself is magical, or infused with magicules. While Physical worlds are those that lack magicules.

Velgrynd went through a multitude of worlds, where she said that there where a few worlds that were weak/small enough that a true dragon could destroy them. With the kanji meaning both at the same time

Let’s check the context of this sentence.



A world without magicules is just that much frailer.

The worlds velgrynd was traveling through were the PHYSICAL worlds that are contained within VAST spiritual worlds.

A physical world is a world without any magicules at all. Rimuru is from our universe, and our universe is a part of a physical world.



Meaning that a true dragon can destroy weak universes. With the smallest and weakest universe known being ours due to being a physical world. A world without magicules
See here


Spiritual worlds are so vast that they can contain physical worlds inside them. Physical worlds are therefore small and weak worlds in comparison to a spiritual one which velgrynd is used to .and not actually small in the sense of being smaller than a universe

We know Velgrynd went to a "weak world" and Timeline synchronization applied there too, meaning these weak worlds also have timelines/cycle of time.



Thus, even worlds as a whole are 2-A.



Whole Spiritual worlds being higher will evidentially be higher into 2-A, even without taking in context about hypertimeline (which are still accepted based on the worldline just not accepted as 5D rn)

As we know, a world with magicules is more durable. Central/axis/base world is the name of the world/universe.

And this world is filled with magicules.making it the most durable world in existence due to containing the most magicules.



the planet alone is so durable that it can withstand the auras of something that can destroy star systems. Only rocks blow away. (Which is already an equal feat to breakdown nostalgia ) (if both truly were solar system level) which would mean that somehow velzard and guys aura alone (which is the output of magical energy) somehow matches the “greatest energy since the birth of the universe “

Due to being protected by veldanava it cannot be destroyed by anyone at that point. It has relics protecting it, with the relics being even more durable than the universe. As feldway who destroyed the universe could not destroy them.

The main counter argument seemed to be that solar system level destruction was stronger than velgrynd who can destroy weak universes and therefore those universes she can destroy are at max solar system size. Which idk why they are correlated when AP ≠DC. An attack can have more AP and less Range.



Even a semi-spiritual world which does have magicules enhancing it and is therefore enhanced, is considered fragile by velgrynd due to having less magicules than she is used to. By the same logic a physical world would also be weak/small due to not being enhanced whatsoever

So we can conclude that they can destroy weak worlds (physical worlds) due to nothing protecting them as well as thier smaller size (still minimum universal)

As for velgrynd attack being weaker than a “solar system level” attack.said attack contained







1.) Turn null/nhillity collapse (energy that created the world) and can destroy it (tho the amount was obviously less than what created the world)

その理由は、『虚無崩壊』のエネルギーを体内で循環させていたからだ。


ゼギオンの身体中を血潮の如く駆け巡るのは、一歩制御を誤ったならば世界を滅ぼしかねないほど


に、危険極まりない力だった。




2.)diablo skill that reproduces the collapse of a world (universe) (and more turn null) he can destroy the whole labyrinth just by fighting seriously which is 100 dimensions at minimum while even velgrynd destroyed 50. So he alone already has a better feat.

総力戦になったら倒せる可能性もあるのだが、戦場が地上へと移った場合、大いなる犠牲は免れな
い。

それ以前に、迷宮そのものが崩壊しそうだった。そうなれば、被害規模は計り知れないものとなる

だろうし、リムルが帰還した時に悲しむ事になる

ディアブロの〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟は、世界が崩壊する様

を再現して局所的破壊を巻き起こす、究極の幻想・元素系破滅魔法である。能力スキルと技術アー

ツ、そして魔法の複合技で、言うまでもなくディアブロのオリジナルにして最強最悪の奥義であっ
た。




3.)zeigon got a new skill.and zelanus power. zelanus someone who could destroy labyrinth dimensions with pure strength and also comparable to diablo (he is also stronger than true dragons who can destroy weak worlds)Ziegon is also able to create his own world with it being the same nature as a spiritual world.(in other words, it is also durable) enhanced by magicules

迷宮の天井にヒビが入る。


想像を絶する力で、強引に迷宮の階層を破られたのだ。

迷宮内部は、階層ごとに次元層が異なっている。普通ならばこれを破るなど不可能なのだが、現実

離れした力があればその限りではなかった。

現に、天井知らずの威力で階層をぶち抜ける者が、魔物の国にも何名か在籍しているのである。

しかし、目の前で起きている現象は異質だった。単純な力だけで次元を裂いているように、ディー

ノの目には映ったのである。






4.)dino who is veldanava sword and a mediator of the world who protects the world.




All that was then combined into one spell which made it even stronger.This spell was focused on purely on the CENTER . With Diablo spell aiming for LOCAL destruction.this was not a spell based on range. Yet its pure destructive energy allowed it to instantly destroy the place they were aiming for,and continue with enough strength to swallow up the solar system. so it is clearly the durability of the world and not range. AP ≠ Dc. The attack had more AP but less range.




むしろ、ここまで難易度の高い儀式奥義で、ぶっつけ本番にタイミングを合わせろなどと、無茶を


言われずに済んでよかったと胸を撫で下ろしているほどだった。



『わかった。全力でいくぜ!』



そう応じて、ディーノは精神を研ぎ澄ましていく。



最高の一撃を放つべく、意識を集中させて──その瞬間、ディーノの六対十二枚の白と黒の翼が輝


いた。



ディーノの双剣──黄金の剣エクスカリバーと闇銀の剣カリバーンに、絶大な力が収束した。



『天魔双撃覇フォールンクルセイド!!』


白光刃と黒影刃が残光を残し、正四面体の中心にて見事に交差する。



そして──まさにその瞬間、満開の華が同時に咲き狂ったのだ。



『陽光黒炎覇加速励起プロミネンスアクセラレーション──ッ!!』



『──〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟─


『──〝幻想増殖波動嵐デヴァステイターストーム〟!!』


ベニマルが放った陽光黒炎覇加速励起プロミネンスアクセラレーションは、言わずと知れた最強奥


義だ。


ディアブロの〝終末世界への鎮魂歌エンド・オブ・ワールド・レクイエム〟は、世界が崩壊する様


を再現して局所的破壊を巻き起こす、究極の幻想・元素系破滅魔法である。能力スキルと技術アー


ツ、そして魔法の複合技で、言うまでもなくディアブロのオリジナルにして最強最悪の奥義であっ
た。


そしてゼギオンの〝幻想増殖波動嵐デヴァステイターストーム〟だが、こちらもゼラヌスから託さ


れた力を取り込んだ事で、ゼギオンの最強奥義であった〝幻想次元波動嵐ディメンションストーム


〟がより凶悪に進化していた。



各々が、各々の持てる最大の力を発揮した形だ。


寸すん分ぶん違たがわず放たれた超絶技の数々が、正しく絶妙なるタイミングにて、ディーノの放


った技に被せるように正四面体の中心部に到達していた。



そこに座する迷宮廃棄部分にて、色無き極光が花開いて、亜空間を美しく彩っている。


それは、手向けに相応しく美しかった。


.ただし、その秘めたる威力は──宇宙開かい闢びゃく以来で最大となる、絶禍の破壊力を生じさせ
るものだった。


威力を逃さぬように構築された正四面体内部を、破壊の災禍が埋め尽くしていく。



────四重複合絶技カルテットスキル:絶撃追憶滅光崩ブレイクダウンノスタルジア────



四名の力が一つに合わさり、かつてない究極の破壊を生み出したのだ。
✋Absolute Cinema🤚
 
So in light of Feldway's reply, I'm going to go into details on why this has a lot of issues and then put this in my main conclusion reply as to keep all of that together.

I'm gonna be debunking and rebunking this whole "TenSura is not a multiverse" mess in detail.
Let's talk about why a lot of points made, which I'll over cover the one's that are new and if something needs a reply.

Hinata's Theory of the World​

Sure, Hinata confirmed that her theory was correct, twice, but literally, just after Hinata said her theory was correct, the thoughts of someone Chloe says that no, it's simply that the Collapse of the World isn't allowed, but contradictions can exist as long as enough force is there. Otherwise there's no way to prove the existence of the mask.
So, how is this possible? Why did Hinata think "her theory was correct", then someone says "no, that’s not entirely true", then it again says "She felt relieved that her theory was correct"?
Well, it's simple. It's a matter of perspective. You see those ( ) braces? Yeah, those are thoughts from a different person, NOT Hinata. Otherwise why would the ( ) text negate the outside text before and after?
So this is, respectfully speaking, a lack of comprehending what's going on. Hinata theory wasn't falsified by anyone, that was he own thoughts running in continuation.

By the looks of it, my theory seems to be correct…

There really was only one world, and it did not allow the existence of a paradox.

—No, that’s not entirely true. It’s not that it doesn’t allow the existence of a paradox. It just stops the world from collapsing. If there was something strong enough, such as the creation of the mask, then even the paradox couldn’t destroy it, and instead only twist its existence. Otherwise, there’s no way to explain the existence of the peculiar mask.
This simply shows Hinata's thoughts running into the next sentence split between a narrative line. You can easily cut that narrative line out and have this
By the looks of it, my theory seems to be correct—No, that’s not entirely true. It’s not that it doesn’t allow the existence of a paradox. It just stops the world from collapsing. If there was something strong enough, such as the creation of the mask, then even the paradox couldn’t destroy it, and instead only twist its existence. Otherwise, there’s no way to explain the existence of the peculiar mask.
This wasn't chloe's thoughts because we knew Hinata was thinking up the theories as they went along, majority of Volume 11 chapter 5 was Hinata's thoughts, Chloe speaking to Hinata in Quotations and Hinata speaking directly to Chloe is within <>. So this is just misunderstanding who's saying what.

Also, this doesn't say that her theory is untrue because paradox's exist, is that it's not "entirely" true because those paradox can exist, but it's not a common thing. But it also unravels/collapses the world if two people exist in the same timeline, which still means that branching realities can't exist since the theory they give for multiverse would allow two chloes.

AND it's later reconfirmed that she was right with her theory.
Apart from proving her theories to be true, she was also hit by a great sense of unease and pressure.
And was also confirmed by Luminas;
“Anyhow, Chloe will lose consciousness soon, right? That is probably what happens when two of the same entity exist at the same place in spacetime continuity. Hinata, I believe your theory is correct.”
The issue you are bringing up is a converse fallacy of accident. The mask is an exception to this contradiction situation because of special properties of the mask.
If there was something strong enough, such as the creation of the mask, then even the paradox couldn’t destroy it, and instead only twist its existence. Otherwise, there’s no way to explain the existence of the peculiar mask.
So the mask is just unaffected by time, for what it seems, in regards to these loops.
So yeah, there was never even a REALconfirmation of Hinata being correct. Chloe, the literal person that experienced all those Time Travels herself before, said that Hinata was not entirely correct . Yet it seems that Hinata didn't listen to those ( ) thoughts for some unknown reason, and again came to her own conclusion, finding relief in her own theory that was clearly an Appeal to Emotions.
So this is just false.
I did mention, being called a separate timeline doesn't mean much since it could be referring to the cycle itself, not an actually branched reality considering that the branching timeline, is still put into question.

Alright so, unless my vision is faulty, is it just me or others can also see that the person (likely Rimuru) is saying that based on "I think"? Even more so when Rimuru can't even analyze phenomena from different timelines, and literally admitted that Chloe's power was from another time line (shown previously), and even that her previous iterations in the loop were different timelines? (Also note that both of these statements are after Raphael told him that it cannot analyze phenomena from different timelines, so yeah, these statements at these instances are reliable, unlike Hinata's).
It was Luminas, if you are going to argue against this, make sure to know that the chapter is about. Rimuru never showed up in the cycles, only until chronoa and veldora fought. And no, that line was in volume 11 while the other timeline line was in volume 12.

So not only did you fail to realize certain aspects of the story, but you falsely understood who was thinking at the time of Hinata saying her theory was correct.

Even if you disagree with the idea that Hinata's theory was stated true being a narrative confirmation, you still have to realize that two chloes cannot exist which should be allowed if branching realities exist.
And it's not that "two Chloe(s) can't meet at the same time in the same timeline" but simply "two Chloe(s) can't exist in the same timeline", regardless of what era it is, even if different for both.
This doesn't even negate anything since Chloe was in the past, and came to the point where Chloe was being born, which was the time when she disappeared. So past chloe can exist in the same timeline, but as soon as chloe is summoned in said timeline, it creates two beings of the same soul, which means the chloe of the future/past, cannot exist because young chloe takes priority.
“Anyhow, Chloe will lose consciousness soon, right? That is probably what happens when two of the same entity exist at the same place in spacetime continuity. Hinata, I believe your theory is correct.”

‹Right. And then, Chloe’s younger self will be physically transported to that time period since she’ll have just been summoned.›
So when Chloe is summoned, that forces the other chloe to not exist anymore.

Parallel Worlds/timelines​

Firstly, the fact that Parallel Worlds exist is true, but the fact that contradictions like two Chloe(s) meeting at the same time is not true. And it's not that "two Chloe(s) can't meet at the same time in the same timeline" but simply "two Chloe(s) can't exist in the same timeline", regardless of what era it is, even if different for both.

For a statement like "Parallel Worlds do not overlap" to even exist, Parallel Worlds need to exist. It's the same as how a statement like "Apples are not green" confirms that apples exist, even if they are not green. Because to conclude a statement, the premise must be true.
No, because "parallel" worlds are redefined as Other world;

There was one world, and there were no parallel worlds. But there were other worlds.
...
Since there are clear differences in the origins and laws of the world, it is concluded that it is not a parallel world, but for some reason the names are similar.
There are NO parallel worlds. Meaning parallel worlds do not exist. So simply saying "parallel" doesn't conclude actual parallel worlds, but other worlds.
This was a line in volume 16, before the journey inter-dimensionally. And considering I've given evidence that parallel worlds were redefined to other worlds, simply bringing up lines from previous volumes doesn't retcon something after it.

Then there's also the fact that Yuuki confirmed that Branched Worlds (aka constantly branching parallel worlds) exist by saying that the world he observed was a branched world.
He said it was a derivative world;
  • 派生 (はせい / hasei) = derivative, derived, branching off
  • 世界 (せかい / sekai) = world
Branching off is a translation but derivative just means imitation or not the actual thing, which could refer that it's not their actual world but one that isn't theres, this will require a translator;
『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うんだ』

『宇宙ぅ?』

『一つの世界──って……』

『あの球の中では、時間が流れている。その余波で周辺にも時間流が発生するっぽいけど、それを観測出来ないんだよね……』

厳密に言えば、時間は流れてはいた。ただし、それを観測する術がないので、ユウキは自分の疲労度や空腹にならないという状況などから判断して、『時間は流れていない』もしくは『かなりゆったりと流れている』のではないかと推測していたのだった。

ユウキは〝情報子〟に干渉出来ないし、それを観測する事も不可能だ。だから全ては推測になるのだが、その天才性を遺憾なく発揮して、正解を導き出していたのだ。

だからと言って、帰還する手立てがないので意味はないのだが……。

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの?』

『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』

観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。
So, by all means, the Cycle of Time is still 2-A. where each Timeline is Universal in size.
So until you dispute the stuff I said here, this just isn't the case.

Universe sized​

In Volume 21, it's stated that Feldway destroyed the "Universe of the Cardinal World", yet the Cardinal World was not destroyed yet. Later, he talks about the things happening in that destroyed Universe as "In/on that Timeline", and says that when he was transferred (By Chrono Saltation), everything was already over (Feldway destroyed the Universe and therefore the timeline ended)
I want to note that the cardinal world, is a planet. No one has refuted my last evidence which shows Mai making a 3D cardinal world and it was called a miniature of Earth, and the OTL does planet.

On command, Mai stood up and projected a three-dimensional image of the entire Cardinal World at the center of the round table.
It was a miniature figure of the earth.
From a god’s perspective, the stronghold of the demon lords was shown.
First, Mai was ordered to project a three-dimensional view of the entire key world in the center of the seating.
This was, in essence, a miniature of the planet as perhaps seen by God, the bases of each demon lord depicted on it.“These are the domains and strongholds of the Octagram, the group of demon lords opposing us. There are six of them in total…”

So clearly the Cardinal world is a planet, right? Well I had other reason in prior replies.

So the argument of Feldway destroying the universe but not he world would make no sense that a universe is destroyed but a planet inside it isn't, that's because like in multiple replies now, the universe isn't gone.
  • For anyone wondering how we're sure that the "In that Timeline" is referring to "In that Universe of the Cardinal World", it's because the World had not been destroyed yet . As Ciel said, she only witnessed the "End of this World" (The word "this world" [JP: この世界] proves that it's referring to Cardinal World) much later, so the earlier statement must be referring to the Universe of the Cardinal World.
  • for the part where the Universe was destroyed but the World wasn’t , Ciel uses the term "Beyond Time and Space" (時空の彼方), meaning that the "Universe" here refers to an entire Space-Time Continuum.
End of the world relates to the end of time and space, or the end of the universe;

It would have been better if he had been transported to another dimension where human beings inhabit, but it would not be surprising if he had been transported to the end of the universe where there is nothing, or to the middle of the great destruction before life was born.
(This one was prior to rimuru's situation but still applies.)
...
<This is the world of the end. It is also known as "the end of time and space.>
...
And this is where I ended up, here, at the end of time and space.
A place where the end of time and space meet in the distant future.
...
This colorless, wide-open space doesn't make sense to me, even if it's called "the end of time and space".
...
You mean to say that the destination of the jump was "beyond time", and from there time passed and you reached "the end of time and space"?
...
In this "end of time and space", no time is flowing, so even Chloe probably can't go back to the past.
..
<- After that, I wandered around in a universe where not even a star twinkled, and watched the end of the world.>
...
I had no idea what he was talking about, like he had witnessed the end of the world.
...
Does that mean that this place is really the end of the world?

So end of the world = end of the universe = end of time and space, since each are referring to the same instance of Rimuru being in a place where there is nothing. It would make no narrative sense to be referring to 3 different situations when we are only told about Rimuru's situation.

So the world not being destroyed is in reference to the Universe since it's still there, with evidence I brought up prior.

Addressing fragile and small worlds.
This was already addressed in this CRT

Second, we never claimed the Universes were infinite in size. But they are still the size of the Universe and there are no statements otherwise. Per that, the VSBW standards of a realm called "Universe" is treated as being Universal in size:
I've brought many contentions to the sizes which you fail to address. So I won't humor these claims until you refute the contentions I brought forward.

Then after this, you brought up completely unrelated things, probably to push your own premise to try to get something accepted, so I don't see any reason to reply to that in this CRT
 
Wait so, I'm not knowledgeable about Slime or anything, but does that mean we're assuming the initial world of Rimuru (before he got isekaied) isn't 3-A/Low 2-C too?
 
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