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The End of All Illusions 2/2 (Instant Death Cosmology Revision)

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SweetDao said:
Depend, because it's a slightly different case I think? Here's what Qawsedf234 said on the thread I made on QnA.
Click to expand...

What Qawsedf says makes sense from a simplified perspective, but the problem is that the dimensional difference isn't strictly quantitative, it's structural and more ontological in nature (referring to the degrees of movement an entity has within a system).

That's why I believe that, even with that statement, the verse should still be considered 2-B, because a four-dimensional space-time system is inherently beyond any three-dimensional quantitative measure.

That's also why I said that a non-continuous space-time falls somewhere between High 3-A and Low 2-C, but since that tier doesn't exist here, the most logical approach would be to generalize it to Low 2-C due to its four-dimensional nature.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
That's why I believe that, even with that statement, the verse should still be considered 2-B, because a four-dimensional space-time system is inherently beyond any three-dimensional quantitative measure.

That's also why I said that a non-continuous space-time falls somewhere between High 3-A and Low 2-C, but since that tier doesn't exist here, the most logical approach would be to generalize it to Low 2-C due to its four-dimensional nature.
Click to expand...
While I'm sure you're making sound arguments and sense, the main issue is that I'm unsure if that's how the standards works here. If it is, I'm fine with it, if not... Well, the three options still stands.
 
SweetDao said:
While I'm sure you're making sound arguments and sense, the main issue is that I'm unsure if that's how the standards works here. If it is, I'm fine with it, if not... Well, the three options still stands.
Click to expand...

Yeah, don't worry, I understand that. We can wait for a staff member.

If option 2 isn't accepted, I think option 3 is a good compromise, but it'd be nice if it could use a "likely" instead of a "possibly."
 
I agree with option 3. Even though there is a statement of infinity being completely abstract concept I think we can cut the verse some slack.
 
wait, what about this scan? it talk about a world with 4 spatial axes, if we add 1 time dimension then the verse is 5D in its totality??
 
Vietthai96 said:
wait, what about this scan? it talk about a world with 4 spatial axes, if we add 1 time dimension then the verse is 5D in its totality??
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As of now, we consider The Abyss as only existing within a single Celestial Foundation, which are SS sized at best, so that wouldn't help tbf. Also, I think the way the 4D works here is kinda broken, since it doesn't seem to encompass all of three-dimensionality
 
SweetDao said:
5. The Impossible Question.

Infinity can't exist in the verse, at all. It's solely an abstract concept and can't be implemented in reality. As such, and according to our standards, the verse, no matter how impressive, shouldn't get past 3-A in terms of scaling.
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.__.

Wow. Truly ******* amazing. Probably one of the biggest UNO reverse cards I've seen used against a verse thought of as Tier 1. Anyway, gags aside, this CRT seems fine and I think Option 3 is the best.
 
Gewsbumpz_dude said:
.__.

Wow. Truly ******* amazing. Probably one of the biggest UNO reverse cards I've seen used against a verse thought of as Tier 1. Anyway, gags aside, this CRT seems fine and I think Option 3 is the best.
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This just shows that many stories could be on the same path as this one and it's just a matter of time before it's unmasked Mr. Akuto Sai Cough-cough

I agree with option 3
 
Changing my vote from neutral to agreeing with option 3. Infinity not being a tangible part of the verse is damning. It is real shame Light Novel/Web Novel verses are really controversial now because translation companies only do bare the minimum or just straight up change the meanings :/
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Option 3 seems like it would be best to me. The series outright refuting infinity is stunning.

Interesting to see Yogiri being back to 2-B or lower, while Rimuru was also downgraded to 5-B? Not looking good for the LN verses.
Click to expand...
Thank you for coming! Do you have any opinion regarding Environmental Destruction for Yogiri?
 
Alright, i think i'm going with option 3 with possibly/likely 2-B, since the verse did show different space-time thing despite that infinity can be applied statement, cuz i don't like ignoring those evidences personally
 
@SweetDao "Paella" is this character also knowledgeable about higher universes which UEG destroyed?

If not I think instead of 3-A. Baseline you can scale them to Low 2-C since they are considered as Universes. Well unless I'm missing out something.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Baseline you can scale them to Low 2-C since they are considered as Universes.
Click to expand...
Time in a Low 2-C structure is considered to be infinite. This is the entire reason the verse is getting debunked to 3-A because according to Paella, infinity is just an abstract concept and can't exist physically. So there is no way those universes are reaching Low 2-C.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
@SweetDao "Paella" is this character also knowledgeable about higher universes which UEG destroyed?

If not I think instead of 3-A. Baseline you can scale them to Low 2-C since they are considered as Universes. Well unless I'm missing out something.
Click to expand...
Interesting comment. I don't think Paella "knows" of Higher Universes (which, again, is a made-up term, just in case), but she's definitely, to some extent, knowledgeable about the "world".
From the beginning, it was supposed to be impossible to destroy Ishtar’s body itself. The gods were protected by an eternal power. No attack should have been able to inflict even a scratch upon her. Yet, the Great Demon King flatly ignored this fact and delivered his strikes.

“That sort of thing is just a marking. Since the rules only said it ‘cannot be destroyed’, so there’s no need for me to abide by them.”

“It can’t be…… the principles of the ‘world’ are absolute……”

“How should I express it……? It’s impossible for you to beat me so long as you are trapped in that ‘world’. I just don’t think you can win against me, let alone a middle echelon of the Demon World, you know?”

Ishtar became speechless.

All phenomena are shifting on the “world”.

For that reason, if something is recognized by the “world” as constant, there would be no method to reverse it.

Such is the basic premise and the law of the “world”.

Yet this Great Demon King was exercising her impact without the need of going through the “world”.

Ishtar had never seen an existence like her until now. She graciously accepted her defeat.

She could not see any chance of winning. She knew it very well.
Click to expand...
Moreover, context wise (for the quote about infinity), she was against a God (or someone having God's level of power, I don't recall) who could control "Space and Time, which enable him to control infinity" or something.

While the guy only used the Spatial part of his power against her at that moment, Paella also knows about Time Travel and such so imo, that shouldn't change much.
(I'll add that in a short story, she "fought" against a being boasting about being part of the Demon God Federation, which is basically an organization that gather every "Omnipotent and Omniscient Demon God" from each universe. Guy claims there exist a hierarchy of omnipotence (universe, multiverse, higher-universe,...) and that his level isn't weak either. Paella did state during that story that she already fought people who claimed they were omnipotent, but ultimately they were nothing but jokes.)

Also, imo, the biggest problem is that be it the Sea of Star or other "universes" they all exist within the same stretch of space as everything else.

The statement is also universal enough (Infinity doesn't exist BECAUSE it's an abstract concept). I understand the thing with the Sea of Star and above tho, tbf, since they work on different laws, maybe they could act differently regarding that statement, but realistically, I'm not sure since nothing proved something infinity could exist in those world either.
 
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I commented on the QnA before the thread was made. Reading over it my thoughts are:
  • 3-A, possibly 2-B is fine. The author more or less debunks the idea of infinity pretty hard in there own series, but to my understanding it also just outright breaks how our tiering system works with time. I think it's an alright middle ground.
  • The LS downgrade is fine
  • If the EE doesn't scale to AP, then it would be classified as environmental destruction. So "X, Y, Z with this power"
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I commented on the QnA before the thread was made. Reading over it my thoughts are:
  • 3-A, possibly 2-B is fine. The author more or less debunks the idea of infinity pretty hard in there own series, but to my understanding it also just outright breaks how our tiering system works with time. I think it's an alright middle ground.
  • The LS downgrade is fine
  • If the EE doesn't scale to AP, then it would be classified as environmental destruction. So "X, Y, Z with this power"
Click to expand...
Thank you 🙏
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I commented on the QnA before the thread was made. Reading over it my thoughts are:
  • 3-A, possibly 2-B is fine. The author more or less debunks the idea of infinity pretty hard in there own series, but to my understanding it also just outright breaks how our tiering system works with time. I think it's an alright middle ground.
  • The LS downgrade is fine
  • If the EE doesn't scale to AP, then it would be classified as environmental destruction. So "X, Y, Z with this power"
Click to expand...
But wait, if infinite is just a metaphor in the verse, wouldn't the space between universes also not be infinite, which is one of the biggest requirements of 2-C and above ?

I'm not against 2-C and higher as a possibly, I'm just asking for clarification because this situation is weird.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
I'm not against 2-C and higher as a possibly, I'm just asking for clarification because this situation is weird.
Click to expand...
He's saying that, just like everyone else, compromising to accept that "2-B should be the accurate rating normally" seems the best way to go. Basically just bypassing the statement to a degree.
 
I’m not that knowledgeable about the verse, but I have been looking through this thread (agree with option 3 btw) and I’m just wondering, how far into 3-A are we putting Yogurt? Like, are we simply scaling to him to the amount of universes, or are we also including time (I.e. however many “snapshots” theoretically exist within each universe)
 
IDK3465 said:
how far into 3-A are we putting Yogurt? Like, are we simply scaling to him to the amount of universes, or are we also including time (I.e. however many “snapshots” theoretically exist within each universe)
Click to expand...
Honestly, I'm not sure, I don't think it's quantifiable. The biggest quantity we have is "close to infinity". But that's solely accounting for the parallel worlds and not everything else.
 
I'll wait for a bit regarding Yogiri's ED (if some staff members want to give more input). If not, I'll just apply the cosmology rating and retry that one on a separate, smaller and simpler thread.
 
SweetDao said:
Yogiri is a law of the Ultimate Ensemble World. Therefore, no matter what, his range would scale to the whole cosmology. This is only for the "passive" part of his ability, however, since we have proof that he needs to be aware of worlds to affect them actively.

The biggest problem is his AP section. Recently, it was accepted that Yogiri is more or less doing something similar to an Existence Erasure. Due to its specific nature, it can't scale to his AP (logic), however, one might bring the fact that "he said he could always destroy all the worlds and everything in between to reach home". This is true, however, this is not the normal usage of his power. As you can see here, if we take the example of the Moon, killing it "normally" wouldn't do anything since it would act and stay the same in the sky. However, if needed, his power can also "destroy it" instead of just letting it hang above. Since this isn't a normal usage of his power, I would suggest including an "Environmental Destruction" rating on his profile, rather than an "AP with Hax".

Basically, it would go with something like this:

10-C physically, at least 4-A with Environmental Destruction, possibly higher.
(4-A here is a placeholder at the lowest possible rating one could give.)
Click to expand...
Are there other examples of things being destroyed instead of "dying"?

Because these two examples at least seem more like speculation on the character's part.
 
FinePoint said:
Are there other examples of things being destroyed instead of "dying"?
Click to expand...
The first example that comes to mind is Yogiri "killing" the space of a pocket dimension, destroying it as a result.

He made a moon fall from the sky, although the exact phrasing may induce ambiguity.

In the early volumes (when he didn't destroy a pocket dimension yet iirc), he stated that killing space would eventually result as the world being destroyed.

Killing some sharp branches made them crumbled.

Sometimes, the object destroyed just becomes "brittle" but sometimes it just instantly break.

That's the ones I have in mind. The point is, since his power is indexed as "Conceptual EE" (killing the magical power/concept of an individual/object, resulting in the said of the individual or object), it's out of necessity that we have to index the "physical consequences" of his power as ED. All the important mention of "destroying world" are still due to him destroying space tho.

The "consequences" of what happens after he uses his power is to his own choosing most of the time (unless it's his passive ability, which is another topic).
 
SweetDao said:
The first example that comes to mind is Yogiri "killing" the space of a pocket dimension, destroying it as a result.

He made a moon fall from the sky, although the exact phrasing may induce ambiguity.

In the early volumes (when he didn't destroy a pocket dimension yet iirc), he stated that killing space would eventually result as the world being destroyed.

Killing some sharp branches made them crumbled.

Sometimes, the object destroyed just becomes "brittle" but sometimes it just instantly break.

That's the ones I have in mind. The point is, since his power is indexed as "Conceptual EE" (killing the magical power/concept of an individual/object, resulting in the said of the individual or object), it's out of necessity that we have to index the "physical consequences" of his power as ED. All the important mention of "destroying world" are still due to him destroying space tho.
Click to expand...
In that case it seems fine as ED.
 
is the new AP justifucation figured out? since all that stuff about universes embeded in higher dimension ones, etc are no longer needed
 
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