The New Unified Cosmology of DC Comics: Rating, Scaling, Change

[Elizio33]

This thread is a continuation of the previous discussion regarding the tiering of DC's cosmology, following the recent confirmation that Vertigo has been fully integrated into the modern-era framework (The New History of the DC Universe).

The Unified Cosmology of DC Comics: Ratings, Scaling, Changes, etc…..

Hi, I'm Goofy, and if you hadn't caught up with ever ever-expanding world of the DC Cosmology then check this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-merge-crisis-vertigo-cosmology.181058/ Essentially, we have merged the continuity of Crisis and Vertigo Cosmology. Now, we have the tiering in...

vsbattles.com

I'm starting a new thread following the situation that developed in the previous one, where the situation became difficult to manage and VeryGoofyToddler2, chose to leave. While I understand and respect the passion driving these discussions, I believe it's best to start fresh, with a clear focus and a constructive tone.

What Was Agreed Upon:
The merging of Vertigo and Crisis cosmologies is accepted based on direct evidence.

Most participants agreed that the Sphere of the Gods is 1-A.

What Was Not Agreed:
The proposal to upgrade the Sphere of the Gods to High 1-A did not reach consensus.

My prior suggestion that the Overvoid is God (Tier 0) was also rejected.

The proposal to upgrade the True Extants of the Elemental Realms and the Dreaming to High 1-A+.

New Proposal in This Thread:
To be honest most of the DC Cosmology is fine the way it is currently with a few adjustments.

The Orrery of Worlds would remains High 1-C as a structure 4-D universes enclosed in the 11-D Bleed.

The Metaphysical Realms (Sphere of the Gods, Limbo, Monitor Sphere) would be remain 1-A.

The Highest Planes of Existence (Fifth and Sixth Dimensions) would remains 1-A+.

The True Extant of the Endless would be downgraded 1-A+ for being by-products of the Big Bang and are cosmic aspects of the Multiverse created by Perpetua.

The Greater Omniverse (referred to as "Eternity" in Vertigo or "Infinity" in The Flash (2025) would remains High 1-A.

The Source would remain High 1-A and the Great Darkness would downgraded to High 1-A. They are opposing forces defining each others.

God would be 0 as agreed in the previous thread.

Rather than treating the Overvoid and The Void (as seen in Lucifer by Mike Carey) as separate entities, I propose that we merge the two profiles, due to their shared characteristics, cosmological positioning, and function as the non-dual, featureless canvas beyond all of creation. Now that Vertigo is part of the Crisis Cosmology, this alignment is now canonically plausible. The Overvoid would be upgraded to High 1-A+.

 

[Eseseso]

This thread is a continuation of the previous discussion regarding the tiering of DC's cosmology, following the recent confirmation that Vertigo has been fully integrated into the modern-era framework (The New History of the DC Universe).

The Unified Cosmology of DC Comics: Ratings, Scaling, Changes, etc…..

Hi, I'm Goofy, and if you hadn't caught up with ever ever-expanding world of the DC Cosmology then check this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-merge-crisis-vertigo-cosmology.181058/ Essentially, we have merged the continuity of Crisis and Vertigo Cosmology. Now, we have the tiering in...

vsbattles.com

I'm starting a new thread following the situation that developed in the previous one, where the situation became difficult to manage and VeryGoofyToddler2, chose to leave. While I understand and respect the passion driving these discussions, I believe it's best to start fresh, with a clear focus and a constructive tone.

What Was Agreed Upon:
The merging of Vertigo and Crisis cosmologies is accepted based on direct evidence.

Most participants agreed that the Sphere of the Gods deserves an upgrade to at least 1-A or possibly Low 1-A.

What Was Not Agreed:
The proposal to upgrade the Sphere of the Gods to High 1-A did not reach consensus.

My prior suggestion that the Overvoid is God (Tier 0) was also rejected.

New Proposal in This Thread:
The Orrery of Worlds would remains High 1-C as a structure 4-D universes enclosed in the 11-D Bleed.

The Metaphysical Realms (Sphere of the Gods, Limbo, Monitor Sphere) would be upgraded to Low 1-A (Open to 1-A depending on interpretation and evidence).

The Highest Planes of Existence (Fifth and Sixth Dimensions) would be 1-A.

The True Extant of the Endless would be 1-A for being cosmic principles that influence every aspect of The Presence's creation.

The Greater Omniverse (referred to as "Eternity" in Vertigo or "Infinity" in The Flash (2025) would be upgraded to High 1-A.

The Source and the Great Darkness would be High 1-A. They are opposing forces defining each others.

Rather than treating the Overvoid and The Void (as seen in Lucifer by Mike Carey) as separate entities, I propose that we merge the two profiles, due to their shared characteristics, cosmological positioning, and function as the non-dual, featureless canvas beyond all of creation. Now that Vertigo is part of the Crisis Cosmology, this alignment is now canonically plausible.

Following, though isn't the Sphere of the Gods already 1-A on the cosmology page?

 

[Elizio33]

Following, though isn't the Sphere of the Gods already 1-A on the cosmology page?

Yeah, my bad.

 

[Re5yh]

Agree with TGD downgrade, sphere is still 1-A

 

[Elizio33]

The Great Darkness would be downgraded to High 1-A and the Overvoid would be upgraded to High 1-A+.

 

[Da3ggman]

Tbh the only thing I had an issue with was 1-B SotG so now that that’s removed I’m down.

 

[Elizio33]

Tbh the only thing I had an issue with was 1-B SotG so now that that’s removed I’m down.

Yeah the Sphere of the Gods would remains 1-A.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This looks good thus far.

 

[Yellowyeti]

What level would the characters from Vertigo be at?

 

[Hayato5652]

It seems that Dreams, or in other words 1-A+, has been completely removed. May I ask the reason why?

 

[Elizio33]

The True Extant of the Endless would be downgraded to 1-A+ instead of High 1-A as they are currently portrayed as by-products of the Big Bang and are cosmic aspects of the Multiverse shaped by Perpetua.

 

[Weaver261]

Looks good to me. How Lucifer and Michael will be scaled?

 

[DollaZoon60097]

The True Extant of the Endless would be downgraded to 1-A+ instead of High 1-A as they are currently portrayed as by-products of the Big Bang and are cosmic aspects of the Multiverse shaped by Perpetua.

is glory of the first circle will remain at High 1-A? Or he would get Downgraded to 1-A+?

and also what do you think about This?

 

[GG55HH]

Why is the SOTG 1A again?

 

[Averroes1]

My prior suggestion that the Overvoid is God (Tier 0) was also rejected.

The proposal to upgrade the True Extants of the Elemental Realms and the Dreaming to High 1-A+.

Where were these rejected

 

[Hayato5652]

I agree with this thread, but I still think the superiority of the Overvoid over the Great Darkness needs more analysis and clarification.

I’m aware that this thread isn’t really meant for this kind of discussion, but I’d like to bring it up anyway:

Another topic I’d like to talk about is speed. Most characters who are labeled as 1-A don't actually have immeasurable speed, such as C.A.S. (Cosmic Armor Superman), Dark Monitor, Darkseid, Doctor Fate,Empty hand and so on.

I believe that after wrapping up the cosmology discussion, we should implement a tier, chain scaling system for characters, so that everyone benefits and no character is unfairly overlooked.

Since DC has been relatively weak in terms of speed portrayal, I think this needs to be addressed so DC can reach its best form.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

This thread is a continuation of the previous discussion regarding the tiering of DC's cosmology, following the recent confirmation that Vertigo has been fully integrated into the modern-era framework (The New History of the DC Universe).

The Unified Cosmology of DC Comics: Ratings, Scaling, Changes, etc…..

Hi, I'm Goofy, and if you hadn't caught up with ever ever-expanding world of the DC Cosmology then check this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-merge-crisis-vertigo-cosmology.181058/ Essentially, we have merged the continuity of Crisis and Vertigo Cosmology. Now, we have the tiering in...

vsbattles.com

I'm starting a new thread following the situation that developed in the previous one, where the situation became difficult to manage and VeryGoofyToddler2, chose to leave. While I understand and respect the passion driving these discussions, I believe it's best to start fresh, with a clear focus and a constructive tone.

What Was Agreed Upon:
The merging of Vertigo and Crisis cosmologies is accepted based on direct evidence.

Most participants agreed that the Sphere of the Gods is 1-A.

What Was Not Agreed:
The proposal to upgrade the Sphere of the Gods to High 1-A did not reach consensus.

My prior suggestion that the Overvoid is God (Tier 0) was also rejected.

The proposal to upgrade the True Extants of the Elemental Realms and the Dreaming to High 1-A+.

New Proposal in This Thread:
To be honest most of the DC Cosmology is fine the way it is currently with a few adjustments.

The Orrery of Worlds would remains High 1-C as a structure 4-D universes enclosed in the 11-D Bleed.

The Metaphysical Realms (Sphere of the Gods, Limbo, Monitor Sphere) would be remain 1-A.

The Highest Planes of Existence (Fifth and Sixth Dimensions) would remains 1-A+.

The True Extant of the Endless would be downgraded 1-A+ for being by-products of the Big Bang and are cosmic aspects of the Multiverse created by Perpetua.

The Greater Omniverse (referred to as "Eternity" in Vertigo or "Infinity" in The Flash (2025) would remains High 1-A.

The Source would remain High 1-A and the Great Darkness would downgraded to High 1-A. They are opposing forces defining each others.

God would be 0 as agreed in the previous thread.

Rather than treating the Overvoid and The Void (as seen in Lucifer by Mike Carey) as separate entities, I propose that we merge the two profiles, due to their shared characteristics, cosmological positioning, and function as the non-dual, featureless canvas beyond all of creation. Now that Vertigo is part of the Crisis Cosmology, this alignment is now canonically plausible. The Overvoid would be upgraded to High 1-A+.

Agree.

I believe the Overvoid is not the same as the Void from the Lucifer series; rather, the Void is a part of the Overvoid. Both the Void and Yahweh’s true form are depicted as Infinite and Eternal. Yahweh’s true essence is the Presence/Source. Void and Yahweh's true form are likely same. So, If we consider the Overvoid as the Void from the Lucifer series, it would imply "Overvoid = Source/Presence" based on the concept of the Void. Therefore, I believe it would be more appropriate to integrate the Void's profile into the Presence or Source's profile.

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with this thread, but I still think the superiority of the Overvoid over the Great Darkness needs more analysis and clarification.

I’m aware that this thread isn’t really meant for this kind of discussion, but I’d like to bring it up anyway:

Another topic I’d like to talk about is speed. Most characters who are labeled as 1-A don't actually have immeasurable speed, such as C.A.S. (Cosmic Armor Superman), Dark Monitor, Darkseid, Doctor Fate,Empty hand and so on.

I believe that after wrapping up the cosmology discussion, we should implement a tier, chain scaling system for characters, so that everyone benefits and no character is unfairly overlooked.

Since DC has been relatively weak in terms of speed portrayal, I think this needs to be addressed so DC can reach its best form.

Not to mention modernizing the pages and giving them long-needed buffs in P&A as well as general hax and just cleaning up the profiles

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Can someone explain to me again why the Sphere of Gods being 1-A?i don't remember it trancends Infinite hierracies or smt

 

[Hayato5652]

Not to mention modernizing the pages and giving them long-needed buffs in P&A as well as general hax and just cleaning up the profiles

Yeah, there’s still a lot of work to be done, like the whole ability and hax section. Some characters are still listed as having HDE, but they should be update to BDE Type 2.

Another thing I need to point out is the issue of Nonduality and transduality.

Usually, characters that reach 1-A or above should have transduality. It’s kind of laughable when a character at that level still has Nonduality.

Can someone explain to me again why the Sphere of Gods being 1-A?i don't remember it trancends Infinite hierracies or smt

I R > F applies here, i think

 

[GG55HH]

I R > F applies here, i think

Does it really tho, can't non 1A beings freely enter the God sphere

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Following

 

[Osemere]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. There need to be justifications in the OP for all these tiers (based on scans with citations) as obviously that’s policy. These tiers seem pretty arbitrarily defined and handwaved as is.

2. Even if accepted, these tiers need to be reformatted into a new cosmology blog with updated justifications and citations.

3. Although it’s not yet a site wide rule (it seems like it will pass soon though), it would be courteous if someone (especially OP) were to post all the profiles affected by these revisions, along with reformatting these profiles with justifications and P&A associated with these tiers (someone already mentioned BDE and Immeasurable speed as examples).

4. Keep in mind that a lot of the lower-tier profiles on the verse have justifications that wrap into the higher tiers with no seeming continuity between them. This was mostly due to the revisions that upgraded the cosmology being done after the herald revisions, and this was noted by the threadmod who spearheaded these revisions in a Q&A thread.

Some additional things to back up point 4:

• All herald-tiers are currently tiered at 52 universes into 2-C due to scaling to Barbatos through a weakened Superman, even though Barbatos is currently 1-A because of scaling to the World Forger, even though World Forger in the multiverse is L1-A and outside is 1-A+. This needs to be resolved.
• Superman in his post-crisis and rebirth keys currently scales in his justifications to the Phantom Zone, which according to the multiverse map is a realm in the Sphere of the Gods.
• Even if you don’t take the map seriously in the aforementioned instance, the Zone is mentioned in Dark Knights Metal to be the membrane between the Dark Multiverse and the regular Multiverse, and the Dark Multiverse is currently tiered at 1-A.
• Rebirth Superman in his last key beat someone powered by an object which is stated in his justification to be powered by the Source. Even if this was an infinitesimal amount of energy from the Source, the way the tiering system works means that this would have to be far above 2-C using the current tiers of the Source and what’s mentioned here.
• Wonder Woman and other magic users would obviously have to be affected by this. Diana due to being related to the Old Gods, and consistently in her storylines being able to travel to Olympus under her own power, even as Olympus as existing in a Godsphere realm is 1-A. Other magic users who have consistently been able to travel to mystical realms must have magic at least of a 1-A potency for this reason.
• General nonsense of scaling between profiles needs to be resolved. For example, Post-Crisis Superman in his justification section for durability says he’s 2-C since he tanked a blast from Mordru, who is 2-C, even though Mordru’s profile has him above Kent Nelson who is L1-C, and Nelson is L1-C because he’s above Khalid Nassour, who is L1-C since he’s comparable to the Upside-Down Man, who is 1-A. This doesn’t make sense. Dr. Fate in his first key (which is 3-A) also powered 1/5th of a spell that combatted the Anti-Life Entity, who is 1-A on its profile.

Those are just a few examples. There are likely way more (see Neron, Emperor Joker, Spectre, etc.) Just “fixing” the tiers based on handwaving isn’t actually solving the problems. The DC verse page doesn’t even have a “power of the verse” section that continues beyond the herald-tiers because of all this constant changing with no real structure.

 

[FroYoSans]

Does it really tho, can't non 1A beings freely enter the God sphere

No? Would you like to provide evidence of this? Other than the son of Superman (someone who like superman should definitely be upgraded) Going to it in Dark Crisis this never really happens, you need Boom Tube or for a God to take you there itself or to be granted entry by a God from outside

 

[FroYoSans]

This thread is a continuation of the previous discussion regarding the tiering of DC's cosmology, following the recent confirmation that Vertigo has been fully integrated into the modern-era framework (The New History of the DC Universe).

The Unified Cosmology of DC Comics: Ratings, Scaling, Changes, etc…..

Hi, I'm Goofy, and if you hadn't caught up with ever ever-expanding world of the DC Cosmology then check this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-merge-crisis-vertigo-cosmology.181058/ Essentially, we have merged the continuity of Crisis and Vertigo Cosmology. Now, we have the tiering in...

vsbattles.com

I'm starting a new thread following the situation that developed in the previous one, where the situation became difficult to manage and VeryGoofyToddler2, chose to leave. While I understand and respect the passion driving these discussions, I believe it's best to start fresh, with a clear focus and a constructive tone.

What Was Agreed Upon:
The merging of Vertigo and Crisis cosmologies is accepted based on direct evidence.

Most participants agreed that the Sphere of the Gods is 1-A.

What Was Not Agreed:
The proposal to upgrade the Sphere of the Gods to High 1-A did not reach consensus.

My prior suggestion that the Overvoid is God (Tier 0) was also rejected.

The proposal to upgrade the True Extants of the Elemental Realms and the Dreaming to High 1-A+.

New Proposal in This Thread:
To be honest most of the DC Cosmology is fine the way it is currently with a few adjustments.

The Orrery of Worlds would remains High 1-C as a structure 4-D universes enclosed in the 11-D Bleed.

The Metaphysical Realms (Sphere of the Gods, Limbo, Monitor Sphere) would be remain 1-A.

The Highest Planes of Existence (Fifth and Sixth Dimensions) would remains 1-A+.

The True Extant of the Endless would be downgraded 1-A+ for being by-products of the Big Bang and are cosmic aspects of the Multiverse created by Perpetua.

The Greater Omniverse (referred to as "Eternity" in Vertigo or "Infinity" in The Flash (2025) would remains High 1-A.

The Source would remain High 1-A and the Great Darkness would downgraded to High 1-A. They are opposing forces defining each others.

God would be 0 as agreed in the previous thread.

Rather than treating the Overvoid and The Void (as seen in Lucifer by Mike Carey) as separate entities, I propose that we merge the two profiles, due to their shared characteristics, cosmological positioning, and function as the non-dual, featureless canvas beyond all of creation. Now that Vertigo is part of the Crisis Cosmology, this alignment is now canonically plausible. The Overvoid would be upgraded to High 1-A+.

Question, where are is the Speed Force and Deep Change fitting in here? I think currently its rated either 1A+ or H1A

 

[FroYoSans]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. There need to be justifications in the OP for all these tiers (based on scans with citations) as obviously that’s policy. These tiers seem pretty arbitrarily defined and handwaved as is.

2. Even if accepted, these tiers need to be reformatted into a new cosmology blog with updated justifications and citations.

3. Although it’s not yet a site wide rule (it seems like it will pass soon though), it would be courteous if someone (especially OP) were to post all the profiles affected by these revisions, along with reformatting these profiles with justifications and P&A associated with these tiers (someone already mentioned BDE and Immeasurable speed as examples).

4. Keep in mind that a lot of the lower-tier profiles on the verse have justifications that wrap into the higher tiers with no seeming continuity between them. This was mostly due to the revisions that upgraded the cosmology being done after the herald revisions, and this was noted by the threadmod who spearheaded these revisions in a Q&A thread.

Some additional things to back up point 4:

• All herald-tiers are currently tiered at 52 universes into 2-C due to scaling to Barbatos through a weakened Superman, even though Barbatos is currently 1-A because of scaling to the World Forger, even though World Forger in the multiverse is L1-A and outside is 1-A+. This needs to be resolved.
• Superman in his post-crisis and rebirth keys currently scales in his justifications to the Phantom Zone, which according to the multiverse map is a realm in the Sphere of the Gods.
• Even if you don’t take the map seriously in the aforementioned instance, the Zone is mentioned in Dark Knights Metal to be the membrane between the Dark Multiverse and the regular Multiverse, and the Dark Multiverse is currently tiered at 1-A.
• Rebirth Superman in his last key beat someone powered by an object which is stated in his justification to be powered by the Source. Even if this was an infinitesimal amount of energy from the Source, the way the tiering system works means that this would have to be far above 2-C using the current tiers of the Source and what’s mentioned here.
• Wonder Woman and other magic users would obviously have to be affected by this. Diana due to being related to the Old Gods, and consistently in her storylines being able to travel to Olympus under her own power, even as Olympus as existing in a Godsphere realm is 1-A. Other magic users who have consistently been able to travel to mystical realms must have magic at least of a 1-A potency for this reason.
• General nonsense of scaling between profiles needs to be resolved. For example, Post-Crisis Superman in his justification section for durability says he’s 2-C since he tanked a blast from Mordru, who is 2-C, even though Mordru’s profile has him above Kent Nelson who is L1-C, and Nelson is L1-C because he’s above Khalid Nassour, who is L1-C since he’s comparable to the Upside-Down Man, who is 1-A. This doesn’t make sense. Dr. Fate in his first key (which is 3-A) also powered 1/5th of a spell that combatted the Anti-Life Entity, who is 1-A on its profile.

Those are just a few examples. There are likely way more (see Neron, Emperor Joker, Spectre, etc.) Just “fixing” the tiers based on handwaving isn’t actually solving the problems. The DC verse page doesn’t even have a “power of the verse” section that continues beyond the herald-tiers because of all this constant changing with no real structure.

1. Most of these "changes" aren't actually different from where the DC cosmology was already agreed to, for instance all of the SoG, Limbo, Monitor Sphere, 5th Dimension, 6th Dimension, etc, aren't changes at all

4. Yeah updating literally every profile with justification and everything is gonna be a pain but thats what happens when an entire nearly century long comic book company has a giant cosmology revision, I mean even before when the cosmology was barely upgraded (as in no 1-A and above stuff) all the main members of the League minus Wally, Barry and maybe Diana were all stuck in 2-C despite scaling to higher characters, it's gonna be problematic to adjust everything until an actual cosmology is fully agreed upon and we don't just change it again in a few weeks or months

 

[Chezztercakey]

Ok, so uhhhh now that im back i do have some things in mind that do need some questioning/explanation on (and could possibly harm the damage of Great Darkness)

• The Great Darkness

TGD and Overvoid/Source are accepted as being connected to one another in a way, although with the new dc stuff, that could be possibly put under scrutiny, as there is an unrelated conceptual space between the two now (possibly)

the division between TGD and Overvoid holds and utilizes pre-created (made that word up but i think it works) ideas and works that is needed for the source/overvoid, while also being needed to the great darkness

Another weird thing is that in the comic that i posted images of, it shows that The Great Darkness is not truly indivisible, as someone gets absorbed by it, doesnt have anything happen to them, gets up, and runs away from TGD saving themself from it

(Why does the running image not only go hard, but is also badass)

So uhh, while i dont entirely think this downgrades The Great Darkness/The Void, it not only sparks question on if its truly one with/in sync/in unity with The Source/Overvoid, but also questions if its truly indivisible and truly unreachable in of itself (again, i am no expert on DC at all, and i could be completely wrong about this, so correct me on anything if im wrong about anything i posted since im willing to hear critics about anything i say)

(also yes i know this is a copy of what i said in the last thread but since it was not addressed at all i might as well post it here since it could damage TGD High 1-A scaling)

 

[FroYoSans]

Ok, so uhhhh now that im back i do have some things in mind that do need some questioning/explanation on (and could possibly harm the damage of Great Darkness)

• The Great Darkness

TGD and Overvoid/Source are accepted as being connected to one another in a way, although with the new dc stuff, that could be possibly put under scrutiny, as there is an unrelated conceptual space between the two now (possibly)

the division between TGD and Overvoid holds and utilizes pre-created (made that word up but i think it works) ideas and works that is needed for the source/overvoid, while also being needed to the great darkness

Another weird thing is that in the comic that i posted images of, it shows that The Great Darkness is not truly indivisible, as someone gets absorbed by it, doesnt have anything happen to them, gets up, and runs away from TGD saving themself from it

(Why does the running image not only go hard, but is also badass)

So uhh, while i dont entirely think this downgrades The Great Darkness/The Void, it not only sparks question on if its truly one with/in sync/in unity with The Source/Overvoid, but also questions if its truly indivisible and truly unreachable in of itself (again, i am no expert on DC at all, and i could be completely wrong about this, so correct me on anything if im wrong about anything i posted since im willing to hear critics about anything i say)

(also yes i know this is a copy of what i said in the last thread but since it was not addressed at all i might as well post it here since it could damage TGD High 1-A scaling)

I don't know enough about Great Darkness to help you as I haven't really cared about, I would like to know what issue you're getting those scans from though and who that person is, because that could change everything, if he's like powered by something special or is someone special, etc

 

[Chezztercakey]

I don't know enough about Great Darkness to help you as I haven't really cared about, I would like to know what issue you're getting those scans from though and who that person is, because that could change everything, if he's like powered by something special or is someone special, etc

The scans are from The New Gods Vol.1 #6 (2025) and the character in most of the images is the black racer

 

[GG55HH]

No? Would you like to provide evidence of this? Other than the son of Superman (someone who like superman should definitely be upgraded) Going to it in Dark Crisis this never really happens, you need Boom Tube or for a God to take you there itself or to be granted entry by a God from outside

Even with him, supes is a 3d being yeah? How is he getting there without 1A help?

 

[Xearesay]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. There need to be justifications in the OP for all these tiers (based on scans with citations) as obviously that’s policy. These tiers seem pretty arbitrarily defined and handwaved as is.

2. Even if accepted, these tiers need to be reformatted into a new cosmology blog with updated justifications and citations.

3. Although it’s not yet a site wide rule (it seems like it will pass soon though), it would be courteous if someone (especially OP) were to post all the profiles affected by these revisions, along with reformatting these profiles with justifications and P&A associated with these tiers (someone already mentioned BDE and Immeasurable speed as examples).

4. Keep in mind that a lot of the lower-tier profiles on the verse have justifications that wrap into the higher tiers with no seeming continuity between them. This was mostly due to the revisions that upgraded the cosmology being done after the herald revisions, and this was noted by the threadmod who spearheaded these revisions in a Q&A thread.

Some additional things to back up point 4:

• All herald-tiers are currently tiered at 52 universes into 2-C due to scaling to Barbatos through a weakened Superman, even though Barbatos is currently 1-A because of scaling to the World Forger, even though World Forger in the multiverse is L1-A and outside is 1-A+. This needs to be resolved.
• Superman in his post-crisis and rebirth keys currently scales in his justifications to the Phantom Zone, which according to the multiverse map is a realm in the Sphere of the Gods.
• Even if you don’t take the map seriously in the aforementioned instance, the Zone is mentioned in Dark Knights Metal to be the membrane between the Dark Multiverse and the regular Multiverse, and the Dark Multiverse is currently tiered at 1-A.
• Rebirth Superman in his last key beat someone powered by an object which is stated in his justification to be powered by the Source. Even if this was an infinitesimal amount of energy from the Source, the way the tiering system works means that this would have to be far above 2-C using the current tiers of the Source and what’s mentioned here.
• Wonder Woman and other magic users would obviously have to be affected by this. Diana due to being related to the Old Gods, and consistently in her storylines being able to travel to Olympus under her own power, even as Olympus as existing in a Godsphere realm is 1-A. Other magic users who have consistently been able to travel to mystical realms must have magic at least of a 1-A potency for this reason.
• General nonsense of scaling between profiles needs to be resolved. For example, Post-Crisis Superman in his justification section for durability says he’s 2-C since he tanked a blast from Mordru, who is 2-C, even though Mordru’s profile has him above Kent Nelson who is L1-C, and Nelson is L1-C because he’s above Khalid Nassour, who is L1-C since he’s comparable to the Upside-Down Man, who is 1-A. This doesn’t make sense. Dr. Fate in his first key (which is 3-A) also powered 1/5th of a spell that combatted the Anti-Life Entity, who is 1-A on its profile.

Those are just a few examples. There are likely way more (see Neron, Emperor Joker, Spectre, etc.) Just “fixing” the tiers based on handwaving isn’t actually solving the problems. The DC verse page doesn’t even have a “power of the verse” section that continues beyond the herald-tiers because of all this constant changing with no real structure.

I couldn’t agree with this more.

 

[Antvasima]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. There need to be justifications in the OP for all these tiers (based on scans with citations) as obviously that’s policy. These tiers seem pretty arbitrarily defined and handwaved as is.

2. Even if accepted, these tiers need to be reformatted into a new cosmology blog with updated justifications and citations.

3. Although it’s not yet a site wide rule (it seems like it will pass soon though), it would be courteous if someone (especially OP) were to post all the profiles affected by these revisions, along with reformatting these profiles with justifications and P&A associated with these tiers (someone already mentioned BDE and Immeasurable speed as examples).

4. Keep in mind that a lot of the lower-tier profiles on the verse have justifications that wrap into the higher tiers with no seeming continuity between them. This was mostly due to the revisions that upgraded the cosmology being done after the herald revisions, and this was noted by the threadmod who spearheaded these revisions in a Q&A thread.

Some additional things to back up point 4:

• All herald-tiers are currently tiered at 52 universes into 2-C due to scaling to Barbatos through a weakened Superman, even though Barbatos is currently 1-A because of scaling to the World Forger, even though World Forger in the multiverse is L1-A and outside is 1-A+. This needs to be resolved.
• Superman in his post-crisis and rebirth keys currently scales in his justifications to the Phantom Zone, which according to the multiverse map is a realm in the Sphere of the Gods.
• Even if you don’t take the map seriously in the aforementioned instance, the Zone is mentioned in Dark Knights Metal to be the membrane between the Dark Multiverse and the regular Multiverse, and the Dark Multiverse is currently tiered at 1-A.
• Rebirth Superman in his last key beat someone powered by an object which is stated in his justification to be powered by the Source. Even if this was an infinitesimal amount of energy from the Source, the way the tiering system works means that this would have to be far above 2-C using the current tiers of the Source and what’s mentioned here.
• Wonder Woman and other magic users would obviously have to be affected by this. Diana due to being related to the Old Gods, and consistently in her storylines being able to travel to Olympus under her own power, even as Olympus as existing in a Godsphere realm is 1-A. Other magic users who have consistently been able to travel to mystical realms must have magic at least of a 1-A potency for this reason.
• General nonsense of scaling between profiles needs to be resolved. For example, Post-Crisis Superman in his justification section for durability says he’s 2-C since he tanked a blast from Mordru, who is 2-C, even though Mordru’s profile has him above Kent Nelson who is L1-C, and Nelson is L1-C because he’s above Khalid Nassour, who is L1-C since he’s comparable to the Upside-Down Man, who is 1-A. This doesn’t make sense. Dr. Fate in his first key (which is 3-A) also powered 1/5th of a spell that combatted the Anti-Life Entity, who is 1-A on its profile.

Those are just a few examples. There are likely way more (see Neron, Emperor Joker, Spectre, etc.) Just “fixing” the tiers based on handwaving isn’t actually solving the problems. The DC verse page doesn’t even have a “power of the verse” section that continues beyond the herald-tiers because of all this constant changing with no real structure.

Good points. We need to handle this revision very properly if it is applied.

 

[FroYoSans]

Even with him, supes is a 3d being yeah? How is he getting there without 1A help?

He's the literal cosmic lich pin of DC, the metaverse itself revolves around him and his story. Or you could just say Mr Mxy does some hand wavey shit to allow him to do so, but we don't really see that so the best answer is just that Superman is unrionically built different

 

[GG55HH]

He's the literal cosmic lich pin of DC, the metaverse itself revolves around him and his story. Or you could just say Mr Mxy does some hand wavey shit to allow him to do so, but we don't really see that so the best answer is just that Superman is unrionically built different

Yeah, none of this is explaining why Superman can just go to 1A realms

 

[Chezztercakey]

Another thing i have is, would God/Unknowable/Presence still be Tier 0 with

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-u...mics-ratings-scaling-changes-etc.181495/#-god

There's also this response as well which goes over all the connections and contradictions to God in DC as well

So uhh is anyone (like Xearsay, Elizio, and FroYo) gonna go over this stuff here or does anything in the old thread stay in the old thread

 

[Re5yh]

Another thing i have is, would God/Unknowable/Presence still be Tier 0 with

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-u...mics-ratings-scaling-changes-etc.181495/#-god

There's also this response as well which goes over all the connections and contradictions to God in DC as well

So uhh is anyone (like Xearsay, Elizio, and FroYo) gonna go over this stuff here or does anything in the old thread stay in the old thread

Yeah, God would still be tier 0 since he is beyond the Overvoid

 

[Osemere]

Yeah, none of this is explaining why Superman can just go to 1A realms

Even if I don’t agree with any particular rating, Barry Allen in the current Flash book says the Multiverse map isn’t necessarily structured in terms of energy or time, but in the “sources of change”, the reality-bending gravity of story. Current DC has Superman as the principal embodiment of the universal force of “life” which expands and “multiplies”, with Darkseid being the opposite, which constrains the force of life and the growth of everything.

Darkseid after seeing his “story” from the outside realizes that he is always destined to lose in every fight he has had or ever will have, which is why he leaves and basically makes his own DC Universe where the dynamic is flipped (the Absolute Universe). So Superman doing things which might be beyond what he is inherently is explicitly supported in modern DC through him being empowered by a universal force of narrative which can bend reality through its potency of story.

 

[Chezztercakey]

Even if I don’t agree with any particular rating, Barry Allen in the current Flash book says the Multiverse map isn’t necessarily structured in terms of energy or time, but in the “sources of change”, the reality-bending gravity of story. Current DC has Superman as the principal embodiment of the universal force of “life” which expands and “multiplies”, with Darkseid being the opposite, which constrains the force of life and the growth of everything.

Darkseid after seeing his “story” from the outside realizes that he is always destined to lose in every fight he has had or ever will had, which is why he leaves and basically makes his own DC Universe where the dynamic is flipped (the Absolute Universe). So Superman doing things which might be beyond what he is inherently is explicitly supported in modern DC through him being empowered by a universal force of narrative which can bend reality through its potency of story.

question tho, doesnt reverse flash and dark flash scale/connect to the speedforce, if so, wouldnt they also be 1-A or higher

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. There need to be justifications in the OP for all these tiers (based on scans with citations) as obviously that’s policy. These tiers seem pretty arbitrarily defined and handwaved as is.

2. Even if accepted, these tiers need to be reformatted into a new cosmology blog with updated justifications and citations.

3. Although it’s not yet a site wide rule (it seems like it will pass soon though), it would be courteous if someone (especially OP) were to post all the profiles affected by these revisions, along with reformatting these profiles with justifications and P&A associated with these tiers (someone already mentioned BDE and Immeasurable speed as examples).

4. Keep in mind that a lot of the lower-tier profiles on the verse have justifications that wrap into the higher tiers with no seeming continuity between them. This was mostly due to the revisions that upgraded the cosmology being done after the herald revisions, and this was noted by the threadmod who spearheaded these revisions in a Q&A thread.

Some additional things to back up point 4:

• All herald-tiers are currently tiered at 52 universes into 2-C due to scaling to Barbatos through a weakened Superman, even though Barbatos is currently 1-A because of scaling to the World Forger, even though World Forger in the multiverse is L1-A and outside is 1-A+. This needs to be resolved.
• Superman in his post-crisis and rebirth keys currently scales in his justifications to the Phantom Zone, which according to the multiverse map is a realm in the Sphere of the Gods.
• Even if you don’t take the map seriously in the aforementioned instance, the Zone is mentioned in Dark Knights Metal to be the membrane between the Dark Multiverse and the regular Multiverse, and the Dark Multiverse is currently tiered at 1-A.
• Rebirth Superman in his last key beat someone powered by an object which is stated in his justification to be powered by the Source. Even if this was an infinitesimal amount of energy from the Source, the way the tiering system works means that this would have to be far above 2-C using the current tiers of the Source and what’s mentioned here.
• Wonder Woman and other magic users would obviously have to be affected by this. Diana due to being related to the Old Gods, and consistently in her storylines being able to travel to Olympus under her own power, even as Olympus as existing in a Godsphere realm is 1-A. Other magic users who have consistently been able to travel to mystical realms must have magic at least of a 1-A potency for this reason.
• General nonsense of scaling between profiles needs to be resolved. For example, Post-Crisis Superman in his justification section for durability says he’s 2-C since he tanked a blast from Mordru, who is 2-C, even though Mordru’s profile has him above Kent Nelson who is L1-C, and Nelson is L1-C because he’s above Khalid Nassour, who is L1-C since he’s comparable to the Upside-Down Man, who is 1-A. This doesn’t make sense. Dr. Fate in his first key (which is 3-A) also powered 1/5th of a spell that combatted the Anti-Life Entity, who is 1-A on its profile.

Those are just a few examples. There are likely way more (see Neron, Emperor Joker, Spectre, etc.) Just “fixing” the tiers based on handwaving isn’t actually solving the problems. The DC verse page doesn’t even have a “power of the verse” section that continues beyond the herald-tiers because of all this constant changing with no real structure.

What makes World Forge being L1A outside the 6th Dimension again?didnt he needed Myx and BatMite power just to destroys the Multiverse?

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Even if I don’t agree with any particular rating, Barry Allen in the current Flash book says the Multiverse map isn’t necessarily structured in terms of energy or time, but in the “sources of change”, the reality-bending gravity of story. Current DC has Superman as the principal embodiment of the universal force of “life” which expands and “multiplies”, with Darkseid being the opposite, which constrains the force of life and the growth of everything.

Darkseid after seeing his “story” from the outside realizes that he is always destined to lose in every fight he has had or ever will had, which is why he leaves and basically makes his own DC Universe where the dynamic is flipped (the Absolute Universe). So Superman doing things which might be beyond what he is inherently is explicitly supported in modern DC through him being empowered by a universal force of narrative which can bend reality through its potency of story.

Didnt this was always the case ever since Doomsday Clock and even previous hint?like Superman in 1991 already stated to be a Nexus being in Nexus Planet who's existence is so dangerous that his mere Will could change the Pre Ordained Flow of Time/History itself to the point' the Quintessence directly judged him (and Hal Jordan Spectre defend him in Cosmic court)