Warp Layers and Deep Warp

[FanSyst]

I believe the description that the Warp has three layers should be removed, as it is not an accurate representation of the warp.
So we have this quote:

‘There are layers,’ said Veil, impatiently. ‘Yes, there is stratum aetheris, the shallow ways. There is stratum profundis, the greater arteries, plunging deeper. There is stratum obscurus, the root of the terror. How does this help you? No living man can navigate the deep ways. Even he could not.’ (...) Veil exhaled, his eyes widening. ‘The Seethe is an ocean. All know this – it has currents, it has depths, it has storms. Near the surface, you can see the Cartomancer’s light. You can follow it. You can use your Geller aegis, and you are kept barred from the Intelligences. But even then, you are just below the upper limits. Go deeper and the aegis shatters. The lights go out. The Eye is blinded. When men say that they traverse the warp, they boast, for no mortal does more than skim across eternity’s face, like stones thrown by a child. We do not belong there. It is poison for us, and the deeper in, the worse the poison.’

The problem is that the layers are not of infinite differences; Stratum aetheris, profundis, and obscurus is a title given to warp behaviors from the perspective of the Navigators.
The description comes from an attempt to create a map of the Warp (a reference to the Emperor's Webway Project); this stems from a doctrine that the Warp is nothing more than a mirror.

‘The immaterium. The warp. Achelieux was the best of the long generation, they told me, and having witnessed him scry the tides, I cannot dispute it. Some had already marked him for Paternova, given a few centuries more. Who knows? There is always gossip. But he was good. By the Cartomancer, he was good. And he left it all behind, all for the greater purpose.’
‘Which was?’
‘What we were doing on Herevail. How can I explain it to you?’ He pressed his fingers together and frowned. ‘There are schools of thought in the Houses. Different methods of engaging with the Seethe. Some treat it like a beast – an animal, to be tamed or ridden. Others as a ritual, a kind of dance. Or an artwork, even – can you imagine? But there is a third doctrine – that the warp is nothing more than a mirror, one that can be charted just as real space is charted.

The Khan also sees a star map with references to those layers, which are viewed merely as turbulent zones, going from the Stratum Aetheris to the Profundis, and far beyond, the Ocularis Malefica a reference to the Eye of Terror.

The Khan looked at the charts. The nearest was like no star chart he had ever seen – a riot of swirls and serpentine eddies, backing up, switching over, the courses merging into one another. Various labels had been applied in tiny High Gothic letters: Stratum Aetheris, Stratum Profundis, Viam Sedis, Ocularis Malefica.
‘Warp channels,’ the Khan said. ‘Has the ecumene seen these?’

In some parts of the novel, the Stratum Profundis is mentioned interchangeably as a synonym for the Seethe or the Deep Warp.

As the last of the warp shutters slammed down, the Khan caught a final glimpse into the roiling madness ahead, and perceived a split-moment in the heart of the storm. Far ahead, too far to catch, the remnants of Dark Glass spun and disintegrated. He saw the last of the black iron casings fly free, burning into ash.
Beyond it was the stuff of the underverse, the warp space that Veil had spoken of – the stratum profundis, the Seethe, the Deep Warp.
Then that too was gone, locked away from mortal sight, cocooned behind lead and iron and ancient sigils carved by the technomancers of Terra.

The description "The Eye is blinded" is a reference to the Navigators' eye. This can be seen in the Eye of Terror book, where a Navigator goes blind when looking outside the Astronomican or in situations where the warp presence is too strong.

But Calliden could recognise nothing around him. Without the Astronomican, he might as well have been in pitch darkness. Where was galactic north, south, east, west, zenith or nadir? How could he turn round when he didnt know which way he was pointed?
He closed both his warp eye and his realspace eyes. For a moment it was as though he had fainted. He lost conscious of the cabin and his two companions.

The Eye of Terror is not the true Warp, it is only its surface

‘Chaos.’ Lorgar tasted the word, weighing it on his tongue. ‘That is not the correct word, is it? The immaterial realm may be one of pure Chaos, but it is changed when bonded with the material universe. Diluted. Even in this Great Eye, where the gods stare into the galaxy, physical laws are broken but it is not a place of pure Chaos. It is no random ocean of seething psychic energy. It is not the warp itself, but a meshing of here and there, the firmament and the aether.’

The great demons are beyond the depths of the Warp.

 

[FanSyst]

Bump

 

[Re5yh]

Looks fine, I Agree

 

[Eseseso]

So what is the proposed change to the cosmology/tiering?

 

[FanSyst]

So what is the proposed change to the cosmology/tiering?

It does not change the tier, just remove the description that it has three layers.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Gonna have to get Ultima in here, since he basically set up this in the first place.

 

[FanSyst]

bump

 

[Robo432343]

Gonna have to get Ultima in here, since he basically set up this in the first place.

I read somewhere that he won’t be coming here for a while

 

[FanSyst]

bump

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Yeah, i dont think we can count with Última here, i guess we will need other staff

 

[Eseseso]

It does not change the tier, just remove the description that it has three layers.

But would that change the Warp from 3 layers into 1-A to just baseline?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

But would that change the Warp from 3 layers into 1-A to just baseline?

it still have "layers" in 1-A sense becuase the qoute that come from Dark Imperium, just the names of those Layers not are Stratum aetheris, profundis, and obscurus, they are just regions/locations of the warp, and is probable that the layers of the Warp become unknown in numbers

 

[CNBA3]

I just want to understand what is qualified for “Outerversal”, is it transcendent above other infinities like dimensions that it is removed from any physicality that they can’t be interacted with?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I just want to understand what is qualified for “Outerversal”, is it transcendent above other infinities like dimensions that it is removed from any physicality that they can’t be interacted with?

There's literally a cosmology blog for Warhammer, read that shit lol

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

People need to stop relying on Ultima

Get some staff here

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I mean yeh, you could change it to ?? above baseline for having an unknown amount of 'layered infinities'. I think last Ultima and I discussed this, it was just used because its the only description of the Warp that makes direct mention of certain regions said layered infinites could apply too.

My initial interpretation was that the layered infinities of the warp are reflected each of the infinite universes the Warp connects too as a representation of it interleaving with all possible worlds.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

There's literally a cosmology blog for Warhammer, read that shit lol

Talking about this

Some should link the cosmology blog to the pages of 40k and fantasy

 

[FanSyst]

I mean yeh, you could change it to ?? above baseline for having an unknown amount of 'layered infinities'. I think last Ultima and I discussed this, it was just used because its the only description of the Warp that makes direct mention of certain regions said layered infinites could apply too.

My initial interpretation was that the layered infinities of the warp are reflected each of the infinite universes the Warp connects too as a representation of it interleaving with all possible worlds.

I currently don't have a computer, so it's difficult for me to make changes.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I currently don't have a computer, so it's difficult for me to make changes.

We haven't even came to a conclusion about what changes we would make yet?

I believe the description that the Warp has three layers should be removed, as it is not an accurate representation of the warp.
So we have this quote:

The problem is that the layers are not of infinite differences; Stratum aetheris, profundis, and obscurus is a title given to warp behaviors from the perspective of the Navigators.

I honestly don't understand what you mean here 'title given to warp behaviours from the perspective of navigators', it's an attempt to 'map' something that is unmapable in a conventional sense

The description comes from an attempt to create a map of the Warp (a reference to the Emperor's Webway Project); this stems from a doctrine that the Warp is nothing more than a mirror.

What does the warp being a 'nothing more then a mirror' have to do with your point? The literal next line after this says 'one that can be charted just as real space is charted.'

The Khan also sees a star map with references to those layers, which are viewed merely as turbulent zones, going from the Stratum Aetheris to the Profundis, and far beyond, the Ocularis Malefica a reference to the Eye of Terror.

These are maps of the Warp, not star maps. It's inconsistant here because in the first scan it says that the stratum are beyond the veil and not simply leading to the eye of terror where in this scan it implies the stratum is what leads to the eye of terror. It's just warp fuckery, the eye of terror is likely a reflection OF the deep warp in the sense that the Warp is a mirror.

In some parts of the novel, the Stratum Profundis is mentioned interchangeably as a synonym for the Seethe or the Deep Warp.

If the Stratum Profundis is mentioned interchangeably with the Deep Warp, how can it lead to the Eye of Terror in it's depths? the Eye of Terror is a reflection of the deepest parts of the Warp in Real space.

The description "The Eye is blinded" is a reference to the Navigators' eye. This can be seen in the Eye of Terror book, where a Navigator goes blind when looking outside the Astronomican or in situations where the warp presence is too strong.

The Eye of Terror is not the true Warp, it is only its surface

Agreed, the eye of terror is a significant Reality/Warp overlap. It's a place that likely connects to the stratum/layers of the warp in the sense that all the layers are slightly overlaping with real space in the eye of terror, it being a microcosm of the warp and it's depths/layers.

The great demons are beyond the depths of the Warp.

This is a reference to the void prior to existence from which the Chaos Gods in an abstract sense created the rules for the Great Game. We already have this as a further layer of 1-A from their realms/avatars that are just a projection of their greater abstract selves. Greater Daemons are shards of these abstract beings that existed prior to the Warp/Real space within which they limited themselves and set the rules up for the great game.

 

[FanSyst]

We haven't even came to a conclusion about what changes we would make yet?

A slight misunderstanding, sorry.