Reimu Hakurei vs. Marisa Kirisame

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

---

Battle takes place in the skies of New Hell (see the video above)
Marisa is in her 1st Key
Speed is Unequal
Both start 1,000 feet high from the ground and 50 feet apart.

Reimu Hakurei, Advocate of the Eight Million: ExcelsisBerny

Marisa Kirisame, Magician of Greedy Desires: Shmooply

Mima solos: Topaz404

 

[Topaz404]

I cant tell if this is serious or if this is a joke, ngl

Isnt it like
Canon that they are on generally neutral grounds in terms of beating the sand out of each other? Or does that just apply to the typical spell-card stuff?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Canon that they are on generally neutral grounds in terms of beating the sand out of each other?

Yes.

They both know practically everything about what the other can do. Marisa can even counter Fantasy Nature.

 

[Topaz404]

Then my vote goes to Mima solos (incon)

 

[Shmooply]

Marisa for being best girl, naturally.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

bump

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Marisa for being best girl, naturally.

I'll count this for now lol.

Is there any kinda' argument you wanna put forth in Marisa's case though? I can see this going either way.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

bump

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Narratively, Reimu has always been portrayed as the absolute prodigy, while Marisa (although at a comparable level) has honestly always been more of a second-stringer than anything else.

Reimu should be superior, though I admit it’s hard to define a clear winner. Both have valid counters that could put the other in serious trouble.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Marisa can even counter Fantasy Nature.

Really? How so?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Really? How so?

Conceptual Manipulation. It’s the same principle behind the mechanics of a Spell Card. Though in Marisa's case she has a feat directly attributed to countering Fantasy Nature in Imperishable Night.

Grimoire of Marisa expands upon it further, however. (Marisa is the one narrating here);

According to Marisa, Fantasy Nature was originally a latent ability Reimu possessed from birth. By “gamifying” it and assigning it a "name", it became something Marisa could win against.

Without gamifying it, Reimu would have remained unreachable. Similar implications exist for other routes in Imperishable Night, as implied in the scan above, though Marisa is the only one explicitly stated to have “gamified” it intentionally in her route.

Edit; I'll be calling it "Fantasy Nature" henceforth because that's what it was translated as in the past. It was recently retranslated to "Innate Dream" some few years back by Touhou EN Wiki. Interestingly the Kanji for it; "無想転生" is the same as Kenshiro's Musō Tensei. Wouldn't be the first time ZUN took inspiration from popular media lol.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

According to Marisa, Fantasy Nature was originally a latent ability Reimu possessed from birth. By “gamifying” it and assigning it a "name", it became something Marisa could win against.

But that would only really work in a spellcard duel, right? Like you said yourself, outside of those duels, Reimu basically can’t be touched.

Honestly, I lean toward Reimu, because in a death match she could just outright ignore whatever Marisa throws at her.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

But that would only really work in a spellcard duel, right? Like you said yourself, outside of those duels, Reimu basically can’t be touched.

I think you misinterpreted what I said.

Fantasy Nature did not previously exist as a Spell Card ability. It’s an innate ability unique to Reimu. The scans provided explicitly state this. It allows her to "float" above reality entirely. It’s not something that exists solely within the constraints of a Spell Card duel. Moreover, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Marisa's "gamifying" it would only work in a Spell Card duel. This is not at all the case, nor is this stated anywhere.

The Spell Card Rules are a codified system to allow Humans and Youkai to interact without annihilating each other or destabilizing Gensokyo. That system exists for the sake of coexistence, because Youkai rely on Humans to exist at all. Here we have a case of two humans fighting.

In the specific case I cited, I pointed it out not because Fantasy Nature was “working in a duel,” but because Marisa was able to interact with it at all by "gamifying" it. Whether or not it works in a Spellcard Duel is irrelevant.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I think you’re the one who didn’t understand what I meant.

Fantasy Nature did not previously exist as a Spell Card ability. It’s an innate ability unique to Reimu. The scans provided explicitly state this. It allows her to "float" above reality entirely. It’s not something that exists solely within the constraints of a Spell Card duel.

Okay? Like, I never said otherwise. I don’t get what that part of the text is even responding to. What I was referring to in my message is that Reimu’s intangibility ability isn’t completely invincible within the framework of spellcard battles, since it has a name, so a basic inference would be that outside of spellcard combat, Reimu’s ability would still be totally untouchable. Which is basically how I interpreted the scans you posted.

Moreover, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Marisa's "gamifying" it would only work in a Spell Card duel. This is not at all the case, nor is this stated anywhere.

The statement talks about how, to prevent Reimu from being unbeatable, Marisa gave her ability a name and set rules around it so it wouldn’t be unfair in spellcard battles. The message is totally clear, those limitations exist only within the context of spellcard combat.

The Spell Card Rules are a codified system to allow Humans and Youkai to interact without annihilating each other or destabilizing Gensokyo. That system exists for the sake of coexistence, because Youkai rely on Humans to exist at all. Here we have a case of two humans fighting.

Thank you for the explanation I guess.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Anyways, I’m keeping my vote for Reimu until I see a better argument explaining why Marisa would even be able to touch her in a death match.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Okay? Like, I never said otherwise. I don’t get what that part of the text is even responding to. What I was referring to in my message is that Reimu’s intangibility ability isn’t completely invincible within the framework of spellcard battles, since it has a name, so a basic inference would be that outside of spellcard combat, Reimu’s ability would still be totally untouchable. Which is basically how I interpreted the scans you posted.

The statement talks about how, to prevent Reimu from being unbeatable, Marisa gave her ability a name and set rules around it so it wouldn’t be unfair in spellcard battles. The message is totally clear, those limitations exist only within the context of spellcard combat.

You're framing it as if Reimu is only vulnerable because she’s within a spellcard duel, but nothing in the source supports the idea that Fantasy Nature reverts to being untouchable outside of that context when Marisa "gamifies" Fantasy Nature. That assumption is headcanon.

Marisa “gamifying” the ability also isn’t stated to be limited to spellcard duels either. The spellcard description of Fantasy Nature in Grimoire of Marisa makes it clear that gamifying the ability was necessary to overcome it. But there’s no line in the text that says this only applies strictly within a Spellcard Duel, nor is there any indication that Reimu can disable or bypass that gamified state outside of one. If something that critical were true, it would be clearly stated, somewhere, anywhere. But there’s no textual basis for that claim at all.

Moreover, “fairness” has no actual bearing on whether "gamifying" an ability works. When you bring up “fairness,” you’re taking the Spell Card Rules themselves out of context. That’s the only time “fairness” is ever relevant to it: as a justification for the existence of Spellcard Duels in the first place (I've explained this already in my previuos post). It has nothing to do with the mechanics of Spellcards themselves or the process of "gamifying" an ability like Fantasy Nature. Spellcards are tied to names and whatnot, and our profiles already explain this.

And if Reimu were truly untouchable outside of a duel, she wouldn’t have lost after activating Fantasy Nature. The fact that Marisa was able to survive it - and that the ability was shown to have limits - demonstrates that the gamified state applies. Otherwise, Reimu wouldn’t have lost at all, which clearly isn’t what happened.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Anyways, I’m keeping my vote for Reimu until I see a better argument explaining why Marisa would even be able to touch her in a death match.

Tallied.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

You're framing it as if Reimu is only vulnerable because she’s within a spellcard duel, but nothing in the source supports the idea that Fantasy Nature reverts to being untouchable outside of that context when Marisa "gamifies" Fantasy Nature. That assumption is headcanon.

Okay, so basically the super famous ability that makes Reimu untouchable and “unfair” can be countered by something that literally every character in the verse can do. I’m definitely saving this message for future versus debates.

Marisa “gamifying” the ability also isn’t stated to be limited to spellcard duels either. The spellcard description of Fantasy Nature in Grimoire of Marisa makes it clear that gamifying the ability was necessary to overcome it. But there’s no line in the text that says this only applies strictly within a Spellcard Duel, nor is there any indication that Reimu can disable or bypass that gamified state outside of one. If something that critical were true, it would be clearly stated, somewhere, anywhere.

Basically, this entire wall of text boils down to “it’s never stated that x has a limit, so it must not have one,” which is a… let’s say curious line of reasoning, to put it mildly.

The context of the scans you yourself posted clearly refers to spellcard duels, and the scans currently on the characters’ profiles mention the definition of a spellcard as something that happens before the duel. That’s comparable to two players setting the rules of a game, which lines up with Marisa stating that limitations (like a time limit) were placed on Reimu’s innate ability so it wouldn’t be totally unfair within the context of spellcard battles.

And if Reimu were truly untouchable outside of a duel, she wouldn’t have lost after activating Fantasy Nature

You can’t use something I’m putting into question as an argument. The scans you posted never say Marisa gave rules to the ability while Reimu had it active.

I don’t get why you’re downplaying Reimu like that.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Okay, so basically the super famous ability that makes Reimu untouchable and “unfair” can be countered by something that literally every character in the verse can do. I’m definitely saving this message for future versus debates.

I can see this discussion is getting frustrating, and that’s not my intention. I am not your enemy nor, is my intention to make you upset. What I’m trying to do is interpret the source material as clearly as possible and point out what is and isn’t explicitly stated.

Basically, this entire wall of text boils down to “it’s never stated that x has a limit, so it must not have one,” which is a… let’s say curious line of reasoning, to put it mildly.

The context of the scans you yourself posted clearly refers to spellcard duels, and the scans currently on the characters’ profiles mention the definition of a spellcard as something that happens before the duel. That’s comparable to two players setting the rules of a game, which lines up with Marisa stating that limitations (like a time limit) were placed on Reimu’s innate ability so it wouldn’t be totally unfair within the context of spellcard battles.

This isn’t a case of two players mutually setting the rules of a game. Marisa “gamifying” Reimu’s ability is a wholly one-sided action - she's literally imposing it to make Fantasy Nature counterable/beatable/winnable. Nowhere does the source say that Marisa "gamifying" Fantasy Nature requires Reimu’s consent or is part of a negotiation. In fact, Marisa named it precisely to circumvent the fact that it’s unbeatable.

Also, I’m not arguing “it’s never stated that X has a limit, so it must not.” I’m emphasizing that nowhere does the source say this gamified state only applies within spellcard duels, or that Reimu can bypass or ignore it outside those duels. None of the points you’ve made in this snippet convince me otherwise or offer a clear, consistent explanation backed by the source. And me asserting my stance on this not even a dig at you either, so please don't take offense.

You can’t use something I’m putting into question as an argument. The scans you posted never say Marisa gave rules to the ability while Reimu had it active.

I don’t get why you’re downplaying Reimu like that.

Debating is naturally about questioning and examining claims from all sides. When you raise points in question, it’s fair for me to respond to those points. That’s just how a discussion works. If we don’t end up agreeing, that’s okay.

I’m happy to continue discussing this, but I think we might be at an impasse.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I can see this discussion is getting frustrating, and that’s not my intention. I am not your enemy nor, is my intention to make you upset. What I’m trying to do is interpret the source material as clearly as possible and point out what is and isn’t explicitly stated.

Yeah, I get that. I'm not expecting us to agree on everything, that’s how this hobby works after all. Maybe it seems like I’m upset or frustrated, but I’m not, that’s just the way I usually argue, so don’t worry.

Marisa “gamifying” Reimu’s ability is a wholly one-sided action - she's literally imposing it to make Fantasy Nature counterable/beatable/winnable. Nowhere does the source say that Marisa "gamifying" Fantasy Nature requires Reimu’s consent or is part of a negotiation. In fact, Marisa named it precisely to circumvent the fact that it’s unbeatable.

Look, I didn’t write that trying to imply Reimu has to agree to it… I used the example of two players picking the rules of a game just to illustrate how I interpret the creation of spellcards (as a kind of preparatory phase before the duel where attacks and their “meanings” are defined). What I’m getting at is that there’s no reason to think that in a death battle, outside the spellcard system, Marisa (or any other character) could do the same thing. That’d honestly be silly considering how much emphasis is placed on that ability being unfair and completely busted.

I’m emphasizing that nowhere does the source say this gamified state only applies within spellcard duels, or that Reimu can bypass or ignore it outside those duels. None of the points you’ve made in this snippet convince me otherwise or offer a clear, consistent explanation backed by the source.

I mean, it’s the most logical and reasonable conclusion based on the limited evidence. In battleboarding, the most realistic assumption is usually taken based on the information at hand, right?

Debating is naturally about questioning and examining claims from all sides. When you raise points in question, it’s fair for me to respond to those points. That’s just how a discussion works.

I think you didn't understand what I meant, but it's okay, dw.

I’m happy to continue discussing this, but I think we might be at an impasse.

Yeah I think it's better just agree to disagree and wait for more input.

I mantain my vote for the crimson hakurei.

 

[Diabul]

I'm with Excelsis with this one. I've never taken that part as Marisa overcoming it. She just made a non-spell card ability into a spell card so that it could properly be used in spell card battles.

But let's go with something different instead, what can Marisa do against Reimu's luck? I'm not aware of anything that would help her overcome that.

 

[Steve1775]

Mate I'm 99% percent sure that Reimu has like a very very potent level of luck, even without that can't she just go dark reimu mode or smth

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

can't she just go dark reimu mode or smth

Soooo that actually is deserving of a key on it's own. Profile also hasn't been updated with this yet.

Reimu was empowered by vengeful spirits for that to happen at all. It's moreso Empowerment than anything, but it is an Amp.

 

[Steve1775]

Soooo that actually is deserving of a key on it's own. Profile also hasn't been updated with this yet.

Reimu was empowered by vengeful spirits for that to happen at all. It's moreso Empowerment than anything, but it is an Amp.

I still can't believe dark Reimu mode is actually a thing now. It feels funny in a way. Also correct me but why does reimu have that sort of thing. I'd thought it made sense for someone like Marisa to get it considering how close to the youkai bridge she's been implied to be getting at

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Soooo that actually is deserving of a key on it's own. Profile also hasn't been updated with this yet.

Context?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Mate I'm 99% percent sure that Reimu has like a very very potent level of luck

It's worth mentioning that Marisa does in fact win their duels against Reimu at times. Though unlike Reimu, Marisa has to work her ass off to even be a match.

 

[Steve1775]

It's worth mentioning that Marisa does in fact win their duels against Reimu at times. Though unlike Reimu, Marisa has to work her ass off to even be a match.

Tbf does Reimu actually put her all into every spellcard with how lazy she is. I mean HSiFS made her lose to Okina once then she proceeded to lock in and instantly learn Boundary hax

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Context?

She becomes Shadow the Hedgehog in one of the latest Cheating Detective Satori chapters:

Pretty Sure that Dark Reimu just oneshots Marisa with Dark Fantasy Seal. Since, Mizuchi blitzed and oneshot Marisa at the Moriya Shrine in earlier chapters (The entire Moriya gang were Mizuchi victims too lol). I don't think Marisa would fare any better against Dark Reimu.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

She becomes Shadow the Hedgehog in one of the latest Cheating Detective Satori chapters:

Pretty Sure that Dark Reimu just oneshots Marisa with Dark Fantasy Seal. Since, Mizuchi blitzed and oneshot Marisa at the Moriya Shrine in earlier chapters (The entire Moriya gang were Mizuchi victims too lol). I don't think Marisa would fare any better against Dark Reimu.

Naaaaah. This is wild. She looks awesome.

What is "Dark Fantasy Seal"?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Tbf does Reimu actually put her all into every spellcard with how lazy she is. I mean HSiFS made her lose to Okina once then she proceeded to lock in and instantly learn Boundary hax

It's less laziness and moreso the fact that she's naturally talented. "Going with the flow" is quite literally what her luck hax is, though both she and ZUN call it her "intuition". She only tries when she feels she has to, in a sense? Not that she can't mind you.

As for the bit about Okina, yeah Reimu just straight up said "stop it" mid fight and Okina was like "okay I'm leaving byeee". Okina also powernulled her with her Doorhax (which is something I never thought I'd be saying lol). She had to source power from the boundary between seasons to resist Okina's hax in the Extra Stage, which she apparently also doesn't understand how that worked. I guess you could amount that to her AD.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

What is "Dark Fantasy Seal"?

She literally did some DBZ shit. It's in Cheating Detective Satori, Chapter 41:

 

[Steve1775]

It's less laziness and moreso the fact that she's naturally talented. "Going with the flow" is quite literally what her luck hax is, though both she and ZUN call it her "intuition". She only tries when she feels she has to, in a sense? Not that she can't mind you.

As for the bit about Okina, yeah Reimu just straight up said "stop it" mid fight and Okina was like "okay I'm leaving byeee". Okina also powernulled her with her Doorhax (which is something I never thought I'd be saying lol). She had to source power from the boundary between seasons to resist Okina's hax in the Extra Stage, which she apparently also doesn't understand how that worked. I guess you could amount that to her AD.

Fair point about the former, but she really wouldn't have been this sort of lazy if she weren't too ridiculously gifted no?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

She literally did some DBZ shit. It's in Cheating Detective Satori, Chapter 41:

Reimu is like Frieza at this point. 1 push-up = massive godly trascendental amp out of nowhere

 

[Steve1775]

Wait hold on. Doesn't Reimu have passive 4d powerbull or smth. Wouldn't she stomp with that. If not then Reimu could just RE or AD the fight

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Doesn't Reimu have passive 4d powerbull or smth

Yes.

Wouldn't she stomp with that.

It's a wincon for sure.

If not then Reimu could just RE or AD the fight

Also a wincon.

That said, Marisa is definitely aware of Reimu’s whole deal. She talks about her Intuition in Curiosities of Lotus Asia, which suggests she understands how it works. They’ve also sparred frequently, though these are competitive duels rather than life-or-death battles. The point is, Marisa knows what Reimu would do, and vice versa. The same goes for Reimu’s ability to float, since Marisa is the one who shares how Fantasy Nature works.

 

[Steve1775]

Yes.


It's a wincon for sure.


Also a wincon.

That said, Marisa is definitely aware of Reimu’s whole deal. She talks about her Intuition in Curiosities of Lotus Asia, which suggests she understands how it works. They’ve also sparred frequently, though these are competitive duels rather than life-or-death battles. The point is, Marisa knows what Reimu would do, and vice versa. The same goes for Reimu’s ability to float, since Marisa is the one who shares how Fantasy Nature works.

Alright good...now how does Marisa counter the powerbull, or the massive RE/AD of Reimu because knowing and actually countering are different things.