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This scan is not useable anyway because the person who translated it is a banned and demoted member
So it should probably be removed from the blog or retranslated
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A Very Abstract Dragon ball revision
- Thread starter Killerdrone123
- Start date
- Status
So it should probably be removed from the blog or retranslated
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I'm not even saying conceptual = abstract. But there was nothing there that pointed to any accepted standard.
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@XXBenShapiroXx It's still part of the basis for when Concept hax was rejected for Heroes since it was heavily reliant on just the word "abstract" being thrown around when that in of itself doesn't prove conceptual manipulation. Plus again, these are basically the exact same arguments being pushed for that was used way back then with nothing new to add beyond just saying they warp reality, which doesn't mean anything for the powers being concepts.
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This doesn't answer my question. I'm asking for the accepted standard or requirements that say abstract=/=conceptual.
You linked an opinion piece from a non mod user from a thread years ago, without mentioning the counter arguements brought up against that claim and elaborations as to how their example was more than just being abstract.
If your response is 'this was the basis for a past rejection' or effectively 'trust the system', I can't when there are no links to any standards pages or CRTs.
So I'll ask again, where does this basis come from and where is it listed as an accepted standard?
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tbf there are no standards that say something abstract does qualify for conceptual either
but the thing is if we assumed something abstract = conceptual and if this was actually an accepted thing, wouldn't that mean anyone who can interact with an abstract being have CM? it kinda talks about that here.
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Killerdrone123
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The idea is that evil energy which is the very abstract ideas of evil and is part of reality and is responsible for the birth of evil beings like janemba this evil energy can also impact physical reality break laws of nature and shape reality to its own whim which we literally see janemba doing with the afterlife and the universe as he was forming reality according to his own whim breaking natural laws
The note in the blog explains this how concept are just abstract ideas what differs it from our standards is that we need to prove that this abstract ideas can have impact on reality which we literally see evil ideas do.
Seleas also states how evil is an effective force in nature and gives birth to evil beings so he wanted to create a world where no evil exists for which he has to destroy the time scroll cause simply destroying existence won't get rid of it as it still exist in time scrolls.
If seleas wanted to make a world without evil existing he has to remove the very abstract ideas of evil i.e the very evil energy and remake existence.
Firstly vieth forgot to change the album when apotheosis was demoted Second You ignored the sparking zero scan which preety much states that zamasu himself was becoming the very justice and order of reality not just his thoughts
Xenoverse preety much confirms that justice and order are abstraction in db not to mention zamasu also has goku's positive energy which was stated to be justice itself so infinite zamasu becoming the very justice and order of reality fits in this context we also know he is capable of controlling said reality as the sz narrator confirms he can control the universe and in Xenoverse he is not just limited to a universe as he can reach time nest too.
Why this abstractions are conceptual is already explained in the note section of the blog as this abstract ideas are capable of impacting physical reality and shaping it to there own whim.
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I think you’re heavily misunderstanding what’s being argued here. The fact that they’re abstract isn’t solely what’s being argued to conceptual. A concept is essentially an abstract thing that shapes/governs/affects reality way. I don’t see why you’re nitpicking that part, and ignoring that it’s an abstract governing force. You did this too for positive energy for toei. When it’s literally stated to be the form of the ideal world, and literally is the literal abstraction of it and governs it which is why it negates negative energy (the distortion)
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@TheGodOfICE777 nothing about the positive and negative energy remotely hints at it being conceptual. Just showing them warping reality doesn’t mean anything for them being concepts and at best just gives them another abilities that has no ties to conceptual stuff.
@Killerdrone123 Ok so this is literally the same thing that was pushed for a while ago, with evil being something abstract and therefore it somehow has to be a concept when that’s not how it works. Not everything that’s abstract is a concept unless you think emotions, which are abstract in nature just by default means they’re concepts which is not how it works.
Sealas again is just trying to nuke the time scrolls in order to achieve his goal. Nothing about that is him trying to erase concepts, he’s just nuking the timelines that has these evil beings inside of it. This was argued way back then and was refuted due to the lack of any indication that’s he’s warping the concept of evil to not exist, and I don’t see anything in the blog that differs from back then.
That doesn’t remotely answer my question on if that’s even elaborated upon on what that means by “being Justice and Order” itself. Because Gowasu says this in the anime and all it translates to is him being the universe itself, which allows him to go everywhere to kill all mortals. That and the fact the guidebook that’s being used to twist the meaning of the word concept literally just describes Infinite Zamasu as his own thoughts, not his concept.
Why is controlling reality something that’s being mentioned as evidence for something or someone being a concept? This doesn’t support the ability being a concept. You can control reality via fate hax or law hax or probability hax, none of those translates to your power being conceptual.
@Killerdrone123 Ok so this is literally the same thing that was pushed for a while ago, with evil being something abstract and therefore it somehow has to be a concept when that’s not how it works. Not everything that’s abstract is a concept unless you think emotions, which are abstract in nature just by default means they’re concepts which is not how it works.
Sealas again is just trying to nuke the time scrolls in order to achieve his goal. Nothing about that is him trying to erase concepts, he’s just nuking the timelines that has these evil beings inside of it. This was argued way back then and was refuted due to the lack of any indication that’s he’s warping the concept of evil to not exist, and I don’t see anything in the blog that differs from back then.
That doesn’t remotely answer my question on if that’s even elaborated upon on what that means by “being Justice and Order” itself. Because Gowasu says this in the anime and all it translates to is him being the universe itself, which allows him to go everywhere to kill all mortals. That and the fact the guidebook that’s being used to twist the meaning of the word concept literally just describes Infinite Zamasu as his own thoughts, not his concept.
Why is controlling reality something that’s being mentioned as evidence for something or someone being a concept? This doesn’t support the ability being a concept. You can control reality via fate hax or law hax or probability hax, none of those translates to your power being conceptual.
Killerdrone123
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Who argued just cause it is abstract it is conceptual the main argument is it is an abstract force that can shape reality to its whim and the way it wants.
You realise just nuking evil people won't work cause again new evil people would be born in his newly created world he literally says he no longer wants evil to exist for that he very much needs to make sure to remove the very evil/evil energy itself.Also do you have any evidence that seleas was only talking about evil people cause nowhere it is intended. If the very idea/abstract of evil energy still exists evil people would still be born that's not really a good argument
we have literally proven how evil energy is evil ideas themselves saying it was rejected for reasons in past doesn't disapprove the notion cause if his plan was just nuking the evil people it wouldn't have worked and evil would still be there this whole seleas stuff is to argue how there is this abstract notion of evil that exist in the db world and how it governs it and is also responsible for the evil beings in the world
Again nowhere in the scans it says that zamasu was just limited to his thoughts of justice both anime and sz preety much confirms this notion that zamasu was becoming justice and order of the world not just his thoughts also I am preety sure those two would take precedence over a guide statement
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Just a quick interruption, Infinite Zamasu in the games is actually stated to be the very embodiment of justice & order itself so that would seem to imply to me that he is literally justice & order itself since you know....he embodies them
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??? I explained to you what you need for concept manipulation, a abstraction that governs something in reality that governs/shapes/affects a thing because of its nature. The very nature of it is the abstract form of the ideal world, and it’s why it literally governs and can affect the world by making the world how it’s suppose to be in relation to negative energy that does the opposite. You’re hand waving it away, but you’re not explaining why this doesn’t “hint” at anything conceptual.
Also, regarding the Sealas points nuking timelines isn’t enough to destroy the Evil in the multiverse, it’s why he aims to do it by destroying the time scrolls which contain all that info. Also, evil as an abstraction that influences reality is literally shown in Janemba, when it’s stated he’s literally apart of the world.
The Zamasu point you’re missing the point again. He’s not twisting the kanji, he’s merely showing you how it entails Zamasu being an abstract. He shows you how Zamasu influences reality, and you’re right you can influence “reality via fate hax or law hax or probability hax, none of those translates to your power being conceptual.” The thing you’re missing is that he’s doing this with his ABSTRACT existence, and not any of what you mentioned. Also, this scan here shows it’s his existence itself that’s affecting reality, and that he is literal Justice and order.
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Wonder_of_Fantasy
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This scan is from Dokkan Battle right? Just to be sure.
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It 100% is...
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Goatkan battle coming in clutch
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Yeah, Gowasu states in the anime that 「正義と秩序そのものとなろうとしているのだ」
"It is becoming justice and order itself", from my point of view this is literally embodiment of justice and order, the word “itself” indicates it.
Wonder_of_Fantasy
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Can we get a Translation Helper to confirm that this is an accurate translation?
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@TheGodOfICE777 I already explained that things being abstract doesn't automatically entail concepts. The human emotions themselves are considered abstract, but they're not conceptual in anyway shape or form. Same with Zamasu's literal thoughts being one with the universe. As for Sealas, what do you think destroying the time scrolls means in Heroes? Because them being gone means a timeline is destroyed. That's the whole point of what the time scrolls are for, so destroying them to get rid of evil doesn't remotely say anything about Evil being a concept. His abstract existence being his literal thoughts merging with the universe, not an actual concept. And if you're going to keep quoting the justice and order stuff, is that remotely elaborated upon on what that means or is it just more of him being the universe to enact justice on mortals? Because you need more evidence to suggest that he's the literal concept of it.
@Dagoth_OwO Again is this remotely elaborated upon or no? Because being an embodiment of something without elaboration doesn't really mean much. We have statements of characters being the embodiment of power over others but they're not literal abstract concepts, it's another figure of speech for them just being powerful entities.
@Killerdrone123 Shaping reality in of itself isn't proof it's conceptual. If they're literally warping the fundamental concepts of evil itself or anything akin to that then you have an argument for it, but just having reality warping feats doesn't mean much.
I'm saying "evil people" as a general sense but my point still remains that he's trying to achieve this via nuking the time scrolls since they are what allows timelines to exist in DBH, which is efficient with getting his work done given it helps to nuke everything that exists. As for the proof on evil energy being ideas, you mean the part with Janemba? Because again something being abstract doesn't mean concepts. Emotions are abstract in nature, you don't get concept manipulation for affecting emotions.
This scan here where it uses the kanji for thoughts merging with the world says otherwise. Plus again, is the order and justice stuff remotely elaborated upon or no? Because you're going to need that elaborated on to argue this is something that's a literal concept.
@Dagoth_OwO Again is this remotely elaborated upon or no? Because being an embodiment of something without elaboration doesn't really mean much. We have statements of characters being the embodiment of power over others but they're not literal abstract concepts, it's another figure of speech for them just being powerful entities.
@Killerdrone123 Shaping reality in of itself isn't proof it's conceptual. If they're literally warping the fundamental concepts of evil itself or anything akin to that then you have an argument for it, but just having reality warping feats doesn't mean much.
I'm saying "evil people" as a general sense but my point still remains that he's trying to achieve this via nuking the time scrolls since they are what allows timelines to exist in DBH, which is efficient with getting his work done given it helps to nuke everything that exists. As for the proof on evil energy being ideas, you mean the part with Janemba? Because again something being abstract doesn't mean concepts. Emotions are abstract in nature, you don't get concept manipulation for affecting emotions.
This scan here where it uses the kanji for thoughts merging with the world says otherwise. Plus again, is the order and justice stuff remotely elaborated upon or no? Because you're going to need that elaborated on to argue this is something that's a literal concept.
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When did I ever say being abstract = concept? You’re strawmanning my position bad, like I even clarified this. Never said abstract entails being a concept.
Yes, I acknowledge human emotions are abstract, but are they an abstraction that governs reality? No, it’s not. That’s the difference.
The makeup of the actual time scroll it is metaphysical in its essence, and yeah it does record history. I believe the blog’s intention is to show that Evil is an abstraction that influences reality, and isn’t just a typical abstract thing. It’s why Janemba is used as an example of this.
A concept again is merely an abstraction that governs reality, and influences it due to its abstract nature. So we’ve established he’s an abstract being, and him being the literal form of Justice and order itself, and as an abstraction and form of Justice and order (similar with positive energy also being the form of the ideal world that embodies Justice). He’s shown to govern and influence the world by controlling and distorting it due to being Justice and order itself. His existence is responsible and influences it within the universe itself.
Also, if you think this still isn’t somehow enough, could you give me an example of what you’d think would actually qualify, and why this evidence isn’t enough, instead of merely telling me it’s not enough.
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You didn't explain anything. You linked an opinion piece from a three year old thread and have still yet to link any sort of accepted standards to this claim. Not only that you continue to talk about this point as if "it's abstract therefore automatically conceptual" is our argument. It's not. It wasn't in the thread three years ago, as the post immediately after the one you linked explained, and it's not now. Our argument isn't 'abstract therefore conceptual'. We've said this multiple times and you still keep building entire arguments around it.
I'm not bringing this up to argue 'abstract=concept' as I said, but to show this 'these arguments are the same/been dealt with' card is not at all a viable quick shut down. I can't trust the system of the site with the 'these have been debunked already' because I can't trust that these arguments were properly understood and countered back then. It's been three entire years and you are still fundamentally misunderstanding our point. The post you linked to fundamentally misunderstood our point.
As for Sealas I have no idea what point you are trying to make. The time scrolls isn't a counter argument, it's the argument.
Sealas could accurately recreate an entirely new timeline that was accurate down to the last blade of grass but could not stop Evil from existing and concluded the only he could keep Evil from existing was reforging all of existence by destroying the time scrolls. Not by destroying timelines, which he is very much capable of doing via scaling, because even destroyed and erased timelines like Future Trunks' could be contained in a time scroll. Agios could reduce all of reality down to a single timeline herself but still decides destroying the scrolls is a better way to erase everything despite blatantly having the raw power to do it.
Evil, be in Evil Ideas with Janemba or general evil people or evilness, would still remain even if Sealas blew everything up and recreated it. The only way to actively alter and prevent Evil from existing was via the time scrolls. Evil energy in general of all different sorts is capable of governing and altering all of reality while also being entirely independent of reality's existence or not.
The sandbox quite literally proves all this while also having an entire section dedicated to why the abstract and its effects qualify for conceptual manipulation. None of your arguments remotely touch on the actual points in the sandbox as if you didn't read them and just looked for the word concept and when you didn't see it you called it a day. It's all 'this isn't enough for me' and 'I'm not seeing', but when you have been apparently misunderstanding our argument for three years and have yet to provide meaningful quotations of site standards for these things, those are fundamentally boneless retorts.
The note section literally directly links to the CM page and the Wikipedia page for concept to explain why the lack of the concept name drop doesn't matter here due to the effects these abstractions are shown to have physically and metaphysically on reality.
I'll let the other supporters touch on the IZ and Janemba points.
Killerdrone123
He/Him- 2,771
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This is telling me a completely different story.Now what janemba is doing is literally similar to this we know that evil energy is literally abstract evil ideas that are responsible for the birth of the evil entities and is part of reality janemba is literally manipulating this evil energy present in the world which is a fundamental energy/abstract to enact changes in reality and break laws of the world.This very much fits the definition mentioned above
The Evil energy part also explains how it is an abstract governing force present in reality which is responsible for the birth of evil beings .
seleas can nuke the whole world himself and recreate down to the very grass blade he needed to destroy the time scroll cause he wanted to destroy the very evil itself or the very fundamental aspect of evil as simply destroying the world won't help.
The seleas part is more so to explain how evil is an abstract governing force of reality that can enact changes in reality and is responsible for the birth of evil beings.
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The analogy you're proposing doesn't work in this case, because it's explicitly stated that Zamasu left his physical form and became justice and order itself. It's not a way to show how powerful he is, but rather that he has transcended the physical plane and achieved total abstraction, embodying justice and order—and at no point in the series is the opposite suggested, as you're trying to imply.
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Infinite Zamasu's definitely not just "Zamasu's own thoughts".
What happened is that he was his own ideals before merging with the universe. Keyword, before merging with the universe.
However, after he merged with it, he became justice and order itself, capable of controlling the universe, as stated multiple times. It's stated in Dragon Ball Super, in guidebooks, and it's stated in games like Dokkan Battle, which are canon to continuities like Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Heroes.
It couldn't be clearer than that.
What happened is that he was his own ideals before merging with the universe. Keyword, before merging with the universe.
However, after he merged with it, he became justice and order itself, capable of controlling the universe, as stated multiple times. It's stated in Dragon Ball Super, in guidebooks, and it's stated in games like Dokkan Battle, which are canon to continuities like Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Heroes.
It couldn't be clearer than that.
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Okay, that just reffers to how he will rule the universe with his own laws and justice. I don't know why you all take the most far-fetched hypothesis out there, aka ''Zamasu became one with the abstract laws of reality and has conceptual manipulation!''.
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@TheGodOfICE777 You're arguing for a blog that's constantly throwing around the term "abstract" as one of the main arguments for it being conceptual in nature.
They're not literally metaphysical in its existence, they're still a physical scroll that contains a timeline inside of them, and as shown in the series, destroying any of them results in an entire timeline being erased. What about this is remotely any indication of Evil being a concept that exists in the dragon ball series as opposed to Sealas trying to get rid of anything or anyone that can be evil by just erasing everything?
If you're going to keep using the justice and ideals stuff as concept, for Infinite Zamasu to remotely count as an Abstract Concept of Justice and Order, you'd need to prove that when they're talking about him being Justice and Order, he has to literally become these concepts and control them as a fundamental part of reality to where he not only has blatant showings of controlling the literal concept of what Justice and Order is, but if he were to die, the concept of Justice and Order itself would be gone. Merely warping reality or distorting timelines doesn't tell us anything on if he's literally controlling Justice and Order as a concept and is more just the fact he's literally merging with the timelines and spreading himself to other realities. He has to actually control these concepts itself.
@XXBenShapiroXx The arguments can be shut down if it was already discussed in the past and was rejected with little to no differences on what's being argued in the first place. If you think that the 3 year old thread that argued for the same stuff isn't viable and there actually is something new to be brought here, by all means I'd love to see what new arguments have been found that wasn't addressed prior. The Positive and Negative Energy I've already disagreed on and everything on the Heroes section doesn't have anything new to bring to the table.
Where does it remotely say anything about "down to the blade of grass could change but evil would still exist"? Because none of the scans in the blog remotely mentions anything like that, just that he wants to burn the time scrolls so that everything related to evil can die. Also that section you're talking about is twisting the meaning of concept and trying to push for a meaning that isn't there and I've posted what the actual japanese kanji for concept is. Maybe don't try to accuse me of not reading the blog when you didn't read the section I talked about where 念 does NOT translate to concept in japanese, and showed that 概念 is the actual meaning for concept.
@Killerdrone123 Did you read what Ultima said? Because he didn't say warping reality is enough for conceptual manipulation. It's to control something that defines and governs a fundamental aspect of reality itself. The Janemba stuff doesn't remotely talk about him controlling the literal evils itself or the fact that he governs a fundamental aspect, just that he's messing with the laws of the other world.
How exactly does "simply destroying the world won't help" when his goal is literally to burn the time scrolls, which results in destroying the world? The fact he's obsessed with wanting to burn the time scrolls in order to achieve his dream of getting rid of evil implies it can do the job just fine.
@LordDestroit10K He left his physical form to merge with the universe, and the justice and order stuff needs more elaboration on if he's actually controlling these concepts in any meaningful way or if it's Gowasu or the DB narrators just saying he's spreading his own twisted sense of justice across the world.
They're not literally metaphysical in its existence, they're still a physical scroll that contains a timeline inside of them, and as shown in the series, destroying any of them results in an entire timeline being erased. What about this is remotely any indication of Evil being a concept that exists in the dragon ball series as opposed to Sealas trying to get rid of anything or anyone that can be evil by just erasing everything?
If you're going to keep using the justice and ideals stuff as concept, for Infinite Zamasu to remotely count as an Abstract Concept of Justice and Order, you'd need to prove that when they're talking about him being Justice and Order, he has to literally become these concepts and control them as a fundamental part of reality to where he not only has blatant showings of controlling the literal concept of what Justice and Order is, but if he were to die, the concept of Justice and Order itself would be gone. Merely warping reality or distorting timelines doesn't tell us anything on if he's literally controlling Justice and Order as a concept and is more just the fact he's literally merging with the timelines and spreading himself to other realities. He has to actually control these concepts itself.
@XXBenShapiroXx The arguments can be shut down if it was already discussed in the past and was rejected with little to no differences on what's being argued in the first place. If you think that the 3 year old thread that argued for the same stuff isn't viable and there actually is something new to be brought here, by all means I'd love to see what new arguments have been found that wasn't addressed prior. The Positive and Negative Energy I've already disagreed on and everything on the Heroes section doesn't have anything new to bring to the table.
Where does it remotely say anything about "down to the blade of grass could change but evil would still exist"? Because none of the scans in the blog remotely mentions anything like that, just that he wants to burn the time scrolls so that everything related to evil can die. Also that section you're talking about is twisting the meaning of concept and trying to push for a meaning that isn't there and I've posted what the actual japanese kanji for concept is. Maybe don't try to accuse me of not reading the blog when you didn't read the section I talked about where 念 does NOT translate to concept in japanese, and showed that 概念 is the actual meaning for concept.
@Killerdrone123 Did you read what Ultima said? Because he didn't say warping reality is enough for conceptual manipulation. It's to control something that defines and governs a fundamental aspect of reality itself. The Janemba stuff doesn't remotely talk about him controlling the literal evils itself or the fact that he governs a fundamental aspect, just that he's messing with the laws of the other world.
How exactly does "simply destroying the world won't help" when his goal is literally to burn the time scrolls, which results in destroying the world? The fact he's obsessed with wanting to burn the time scrolls in order to achieve his dream of getting rid of evil implies it can do the job just fine.
@LordDestroit10K He left his physical form to merge with the universe, and the justice and order stuff needs more elaboration on if he's actually controlling these concepts in any meaningful way or if it's Gowasu or the DB narrators just saying he's spreading his own twisted sense of justice across the world.
MeiouHades
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No, that is not what it refers to, you know as well as anyone that it doesn't. That's not a serious interpretation.
Killerdrone123
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"Is able to manipulate some abstract essence that defines and governs some aspect of physical reality and can thus enact changes in the latter as a result,"
Focus on the point how he says some abstract essence that defines and govern a fundamental aspect of reality.
The whole evil energy part explains this how evil energy is fundamental aspect of reality that is responsible for the birth of evil beings and governs the whole essence of evil in db,Janemba was manipulating this very essence to bring changes in the physical reality and reform it.
There is a reason why there is a whole paragraph for evil energy explaining why evil energy is an abstract governing force which is responsible for evil in the world of db remove it and there would be no more evil or evil people being born in the world or physical reality
You realise that seleas goal was to create a world without evil for that simply nuking the entire world won't be enough as he wants to destroy the the evil energy which would be present in time scrolls also seleas main goal was to recreate a world without evil not to nuke things up so him simply creating world just how it was before won't help as the this fundamental evil energy would still exist and create evil people,for that to not be the case he has to create a world where this evil energy won't exist
Again we are telling you the seleas thing is just to prove how this whole idea of evil energy being an abstract governing force exist in db and is responsible for evil beings and people remove it and there would be no more evil people
LoudestProcedure
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I feel like I have to needlessly repeat myself on this point. Of course, being an abstraction is gonna be used as an argument to show it’s a concept because a concept is an abstraction that influences reality.
I don’t understand why you keep separating the context. I’m actually baffled at how you continuously keep doing this. Abstract =/= concept. Abstract that governs reality = concept.
They are metaphysical in its existence. Yes, destroying it destroys the timeline, but destroying the timeline doesn’t destroy it. Uh, because the idea of evil would be gone from all across the multiverse, and all infinite timelines would come back just without evil itself not existing? I don’t see how that’s blatantly not removing the idea of evil itself. Even if you ignore this point you were literally hammering us on about how negative energy has to warp reality due to its abstract nature similarly to Janemba, and then we demonstrated that you shifted the goalpost again.
It’s in the blog IZ is shown to be able to take control of the world, and even with the statement I showed earlier he’s showing influencing it as a fundamental part of reality. It’s literally stated his Justice and order is universe distorting, which means that his existence as justice and order literally changes the reality of the universe, and it’s attributed to his abstract justice and order.
Now in regards to the point if he were to die then yeah it would mean that the Universe itself would disappear, since he’s positive energy (justice and order) itself which is the form of the ideal world that embodies justice.
I agree that merely warping reality and distorting timelines on its own doesn’t mean anything on its own. The distinction you’re missing here is that by becoming the positive energy/justice and order itself, and by becoming completely abstract his justice and order is the thing that is distorting the universe. The justice and order here is influencing reality itself.
Wonder_of_Fantasy
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Because Zamasu has no feats of controlling the concepts. Only embodying them, which fits Abstract Existence. All he actually does is time travel to Goku's timeline, shoot lasers, and merge with the universe.
And it’s even more dubious to assume he governs anything fundamental when Zeno literally erased him from existence without issue. He has no feats.
I disagree with this arbitrarily drawn connection. At this point, the phrase “he became justice and order” has lost all meaning. The entire arc makes it clear his idea of justice is warped, and now it's being further distorted by mixing it with GT’s metaphysics, which operate on a completely different framework.
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That's a very nice bad faith argument there. Unfortunately your far-fetched hypothesis is not to be taken at face value.
Guess I have conceptual manipulation + fused with abstract laws!!!!
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He never truly fused with it. He was killed off long before he achieved that state. So naturally he never reached that potential form of his.
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The point is that zamasu became these things. Said things being, 'justice, will, ideas, law, positive energy'. And in becoming this abstraction, was able to literally warp reality. So the non existent feats you speak of are actually right in front of you. The claim of zeno erasing zamasu, therefore meaning zamasu has no feats and is some kind of anti feat is irrelevant.
It hasn't lost all meaning. Just because that's the conclusion you personally came to doesn't mean that's what's actually happening here. Zamasu had his own ideals sure, but they are still his. He truly believed what he did was correct and that everyone else in the cosmos was wrong. But in the grand scheme of things this really isn't all that important because he still became justice/positive energy itself and merged with reality. Also you forget this is heroes, which GT exist in. Its not as simple as mixing the metaphysics, were going off of established things in the verse. Consistent mechanics and lore clearly. They operate on the same framework.
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@Nami_Kami Zamasu becoming the universe or not is not pertinent to this thread. Aside from that, it's been proven to be true multiple times. Please stop derailing.
You're free to believe he's not 2-C, we respect your opinion, but again, it's got nothing to do with what we're discussing here.
You're free to believe he's not 2-C, we respect your opinion, but again, it's got nothing to do with what we're discussing here.
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You know GT exist in Heroes right? We are arguing for the DB games for a reason not GT or Super respectively, since CC goku. which possesses the exact same type of Positive energy akin to Xeno Goku, and Zamasu taking over his body, and obviously possesses Positive energy (which he now embodies) and fusing with the whole universe itself, becoming it's own very notion of Justice and order, and governing the whole universe, as the Positive energy is said to be the ideal form of the natural world/what laws of nature are, supported by the fact that in one of the scans it is said that he's controlling the whole universe itself, which suffices that he indeed has control over the known abstract ideas/concept, and he himself is a concept that fuses with the universe, the exact metaphysical framework is shared over throughout the DB games (as it's stated that histories are parallel to one another)
It's already accepted that he fuses with the whole universe in the wiki, and very well established in the canon, and that's not the point of this thread, please stop derailing.
This doesn't change the fact that the narrator (an omniscient source) stated it himself that infinite Zamasu becomes the very justice and order, I would understand that if it's just one statement pointing to as such it would seem as a bit flowery, but if there's many supporting materials that stated it many times, I don't think it can be disregarded it as just flowery language, as it's already established that Zamasu becomes the very whims of justice and order and fuses with the whole universe.
Wonder_of_Fantasy
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I simply disagree. I don’t believe Infinite Zamasu literally became the literal embodiment of justice, law, or even positive energy. Even if we entertain the idea that he embodies positive energy, I think it's a glaring contradiction. He’s been consistently portrayed as evil, genocidal, and obsessed with erasing all mortal life. That’s fundamentally opposite of how positive energy is framed here and in the blog.
Also, claiming he became positive energy requires solid, explicit evidence, which I haven’t seen. It feels like a leap in logic based on implication from other entries in the verse rather than fact. Given the level of scrutiny this claim deserves, direct evidence is necessary.
Saying “that’s just your conclusion” doesn’t actually refute or argue anything. It just tries to sidestep the argument by framing it as a matter of opinion. If we’re going to dismiss counterpoints as “your interpretation,” then by that same logic, your claim that Zamasu became justice/positive energy is also just an interpretation. You also can’t selectively apply subjectivity only when it’s convenient. Be more serious please.
I also think that it absolutely does matter that Zamasu’s beliefs were his own and that his version of justice/order was fundamentally flawed. The fact that his “justice” was twisted and genocidal directly contradicts the idea that he became the pure, universal embodiment of justice = positive energy. And his deluded ideology is extremely relevant to what he actually became. Ignoring that misses the point entirely.
Holy misinformation. Gowasu said it, not the narrator. Also the fact that he says "is trying to become" here doesn't make it automatically so.
Which makes me think that this was a false translation after all. Is it "trying to become" or "it is becoming"?
Again, can a Translation Helper confirm that the translation in this snip is accurate?
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We are not strictly talking about the DBS anime, it's stated that the narrator in the games that he sought to become the order and justice. In the process or not, I doesn't change the fact that will eventually become the justice and order.
Even The narration treats Zamasu’s transformation seriously, and there's many implication that the very notion of justice and order are treated as literal whims in Heroes.
Wonder_of_Fantasy
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Even here it says "tried to become", which doesn't mean he did!
Edit; It even says "tried to" not once, but twice in that scan. Which tells me he didn't actually become it.
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