Deactivating Anti-Space-Time attack mechanism limiter... | Sonic Cosmology Downgrade Part 2

[Telomera]

The dream worlds are already IN Fourth Dimensional Space, and those are the images that are flat. Universal structures are being splayed out as flat along FDS, meaning FDS has an axis that's significant enough to easily hold dream worlds like they're infinitesimal.

From what we can see in the scene, they don't look flat, so we're probably misunderstanding Tails. Maybe he was talking about how bright they looked. Screens tend to be much brighter than their surroundings

But even if we were to ignore what we're seeing and say that they did in fact look flat, that doesn't mean that they're actually, literally flat in the sense of being infinitesimally smaller than maginaryworld. If you zoom out far enough from the Milky Way, it gets to the point where the Milky Way looks flat. That doesn't mean that the universe is actually spatially uncountably larger than the Milky way or is higher dimensional compared to it. You don't need differences of uncountable infinities for the sizes of things to look like they're approaching zero.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

No, referring to Eggman’s IDW maze dimension. I should have it linked here

was talking about the being charged with chaos energy part

 

[Telomera]

Except both cutscenes describe these as the actual worlds themselves, rather than portals to them. The entire realm is also just flat out a dream to Illumina, who Solaris is significantly above due to being referred to as a higher dimensional being, when Illumina is not.

Fine I concede that they're contained by it. Ignore that, this post has a much more reasonable way to look at the situation

From what we can see in the scene, they don't look flat, so we're probably misunderstanding Tails. Maybe he was talking about how bright they looked. Screens tend to be much brighter than their surroundings

But even if we were to ignore what we're seeing and say that they did in fact look flat, that doesn't mean that they're actually, literally flat in the sense of being infinitesimally smaller than maginaryworld. If you zoom out far enough from the Milky Way, it gets to the point where the Milky Way looks flat. That doesn't mean that the universe is actually spatially uncountably larger than the Milky way or is higher dimensional compared to it. You don't need differences of uncountable infinities for the sizes of things to look like they're approaching zero.

 

[Telomera]

Funny part is that it is on this wiki. It just as an "insignificant 5-D axis" that can't be tiered standardly. There have been several threads regarding this.

Except this isn't a be-all-end-all because it entirely depends on what said 5-D space is containing.

The entire dream being flat if you entered it would actually tear apart the argument, not strengthen it.

Also you're wrong because it's specifically stated they're actual worlds and not portals to them.

The dream worlds are already IN Fourth Dimensional Space, and those are the images that are flat. Universal structures are being splayed out as flat along FDS, meaning FDS has an axis that's significant enough to easily hold dream worlds like they're infinitesimal.

By the way, do you actually buy any of this nonsense about how non euclidean geometry and warping space necessitates higher dimensions? It's outright false that non euclidean geometry requires extra dimensions. It would be good if we can get past that and instead focus on whether or not fourth dimension space is uncountably bigger than the dream worlds due to them looking flat.

 

[JJSliderman]

was talking about the being charged with chaos energy part

Ah yeah, that’s right then, thanks for finding it.

But even if we were to ignore what we're seeing and say that they did in fact look flat, that doesn't mean that they're actually, literally flat in the sense of being infinitesimally smaller than maginaryworld. If you zoom out far enough from the Milky Way, it gets to the point where the Milky Way looks flat. That doesn't mean that the universe is actually spatially uncountably larger than the Milky way or is higher dimensional compared to it. You don't need differences of uncountable infinities for the sizes of things to look like they're approaching zero.

The entirety of 4th dimension space, which already dwarfs any regular dream to an infinite degree by virtue of needing to store every dream across the infinite multiverse within it (even if those regular dreams are multiverses in themselves or infinite size or both super-dimensional and infinite), is considered a dream to Illumina, meaning that even 4-D space itself is just a dream to her, I think that speaks to at least Illumina being a higher-dimensional entity that she can so easily create this infinite multiverse that dwarfs infinite space or other multiverses.

 

[Telomera]

The entirety of 4th dimension space, which already dwarfs any regular dream to an infinite degree by virtue of needing to store every dream across the infinite multiverse within it (even if those regular dreams are multiverses in themselves or infinite size or both super-dimensional and infinite), is considered a dream to Illumina, meaning that even 4-D space itself is just a dream to her,

Dreams are literally, materially real in Sonic, so that doesn't say anything about any sort of superiority.

 

[JJSliderman]

Dreams are literally, materially real in Sonic, so that doesn't say anything about any sort of superiority.

They’re real because she makes them real with the Precioustone that she created.

 

[ShakeResounding]

By the way, do you actually buy any of this nonsense about how non euclidean geometry and warping space necessitates higher dimensions?

I'm actually fully neutral on that, as I had no part in using a tesseract as evidence and it wasn't my idea

 

[Theuser789]

so we're probably misunderstanding Tails.

The characters opinion>>>>>>>>yours. I will always take Tails's opinion 100 times out of 100 over your interpretation.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

The characters opinion>>>>>>>>yours. I will always take Tails's opinion 100 times out of 100 over your interpretation.

He isn't a supergenius for nothing after all

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm actually fully neutral on that, as I had no part in using a tesseract as evidence and it wasn't my idea

Having spatial manipulation would result in impossible geometry, but the other evidence (such as the image of a tesseract) is enough for a 4D spatial rating in my view just based on historical evidence on the site.

 

[Telomera]

They’re real because she makes them real with the Precioustone that she created.

OK? That doesn't change the fact that your argument only makes sense if she views them as an "unreal" dream which would require further context to prove since dreams are in fact real in this world.

Having spatial manipulation would result in impossible geometry, but the other evidence (such as the image of a tesseract) is enough for a 4D spatial rating in my view just based on historical evidence on the site.

Do you think that's actually sufficient evidence though? It's only a lower dimensional cross section of a tesseract and doesn't even act like a tesseract. Sonic just jumps into it normally and then it materializes into a normal 3D room

 

[JJSliderman]

OK? That doesn't change the fact that your argument only makes sense if she views them as an "unreal" dream which would require further context to prove since dreams are in fact real in this world.

Dreams are in fact, only real when they are made real by specific elements. Sometimes the chaos emeralds, sometimes the phantom Ruby, sometimes the Precioustone or Reverie. Dreams aren’t real by default.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you think that's actually sufficient evidence though?

From what I've seen on site, it's consistently accepted by all staff as being a valid piece of evidence for four spatial dimensions as long as the tesseract itself is sufficiently real.

 

[Telomera]

The characters opinion>>>>>>>>yours. I will always take Tails's opinion 100 times out of 100 over your interpretation.

I'm not suggesting that we throw out his opinion. I'm suggesting that we throw out your interpretation of his opinion. Does him saying that it looks like it's being projected onto a screen mean that it looks flat, or that it looks bright, or it looks artificial somehow? Normally if those worlds were that far away, they would be impossible to identify and would be too dark to distinguish, so it looks like they're artificially being displayed in a way that makes them easier to see.

But even if we ignore all of that (we shouldn't), that doesn't change the fact that "looking flat" doesn't actually indicate that it's uncountably infinitely smaller. The Milky Way looks flat if you look at it far away, that doesn't mean that it's uncountably smaller than the universe spatially.

 

[JJSliderman]

But even if we ignore all of that (we shouldn't), that doesn't change the fact that "looking flat" doesn't actually indicate that it's uncountably infinitely smaller. The Milky Way looks flat if you look at it far away, that doesn't mean that it's uncountably smaller than the universe spatially.

It is in fact, uncountably infinitely smaller because it has to be. Maginaryworld stores EVERY dream across the ENTIRE multiverse within 4th dimension space, said multiverse already being infinite cuz of TailsTube (and maybe crossworlds) and the multiverse also working off many worlds theory to add even more worlds, all those worlds creating new dreamworlds, and even those dream worlds having dream worlds offshooting from them via evidence from Dream Team and Shuffle.

 

[Telomera]

From what I've seen on site, it's consistently accepted by all staff as being a valid piece of evidence for four spatial dimensions as long as the tesseract itself is sufficiently real.

DDM voiced his disapproval of Sonic's tiering so he might view it differently. Not sure though. What about the other evidence? Does the dream worlds "looking flat" justify higher tiering? I pointed to a counterexample where a galaxy (or perhaps a flat earth model) can "look flat" if you look at it from far away even though it's not actually infinitesimally small.

 

[Theuser789]

One staff disagreement already. Let's just have staff comment quickly so we don't go over 15 pages this time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Does the dream worlds "looking flat" justify higher tiering?

On it's own, no. However, that's also not the sole piece of evidence for the Dream World being fourth dimensional, but a piece of supporting evidence.

 

[Telomera]

On it's own, no. However, that's also not the sole piece of evidence for the Dream World being fourth dimensional, but a piece of supporting evidence.

It's already been accepted here though that Japanese descriptions using the term "次元" are insufficient proof for anything actually involving geometric dimensions though. In fact, we have a Sonic writer here talking about how they used that kanji without actually referring to spatial dimensions. That just leaves the tesseract argument, yeah?

 

[JJSliderman]

It's already been accepted here though that Japanese descriptions using the term "次元" are insufficient proof for anything actually involving geometric dimensions though. In fact, we have a Sonic writer here talking about how they used that kanji without actually referring to spatial dimensions. That just leaves the tesseract argument, yeah?

No, Solaris himself is also a higher dimensional being, plus Otherworld is a super-dimensional space.

Moreover what else could 4th dimension be but geometric, it’s likely not referring to being the 4th out of infinite parallel universes cuz that’s arbitrary.

 

[Theuser789]

It's already been accepted here though that Japanese descriptions using the term "次元" are insufficient proof for anything actually involving geometric dimensions though. In fact, we have a Sonic writer here talking about how they used that kanji without actually referring to spatial dimensions. That just leaves the tesseract argument, yeah?

Just add Qaw as disagreeing with the thread in your OP. He said his opinion.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's already been accepted here though that Japanese descriptions using the term "次元" are insufficient proof for anything actually involving geometric dimensions though.

That thread was about how fan translations suggesting it should be higher dimensional was not supported within the context of the dialogue and later plot. You'd have to show the same level of evidence with Sonic, that the Dream World is operating on a higher level without being higher dimensional.

In fact, we have a Sonic writer here talking about how they used that kanji without actually referring to spatial dimensions.

That was about Metal Sonic being higher dimensional compared to Sonic. This is an example of what the previous linked thread was talking about, where the literal translation is ignoring the context of the statement. But since Kanji is context sensitive, this isn't counter evidence against the Dream World. You'd have to show the Dream World's context doesn't support that translation.

 

[Telomera]

You'd have to show the same level of evidence with Sonic, that the Dream World is operating on a higher level without being higher dimensional.
...
But since Kanji is context sensitive, this isn't counter evidence against the Dream World. You'd have to show the Dream World's context doesn't support that translation.

The profiles as well as the opposition operate under the assumption that "fourth dimensional space" refers to 4+1-dimensional space. Why is the burden of proof on me to disprove that assumption?

 

[Theuser789]

The profiles as well as the opposition operate under the assumption that "fourth dimensional space" refers to 4+1-dimensional space. Why is the burden of proof on me to disprove that assumption?

Dude, he disagrees with you. At least add him to the OP before arguing.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

The profiles as well as the opposition operate under the assumption that "fourth dimensional space" refers to 4+1-dimensional space. Why is the burden of proof on me to disprove that assumption?

ur downgradin that vro not them...

 

[Thermor]

Dude, he disagrees with you. At least add him to the OP before arguing.

Honestly actions like this made me believe OP just wants to downgrade the verse out of attempt looking being smart, not genuine.

 

[Telomera]

ur downgradin that vro not them...

That's not how it works. The opposition and the profiles are making a claim about what "fourth dimensional space" is. Therefore, the burden of proof is on them to justify that claim.

 

[Kurokitomo]

I dont have a horse on the race besides not considering tails a valid source of information is wild. A lot of this smaller dream argument and "looking flat" screams cherrypicking.

Edit: I misunderstood. My sincere apologies




Let's save whatever claim we cant back up, or pull out of our ass for anywhere else.

Honestly actions like this made me believe OP just wants to downgrade the verse out of attempt looking being smart, not genuine.

 

[Robo432343]

this has enough staff disagreements

 

[PedjaTarzan]

That's not how it works. The opposition and the profiles are making a claim about what "fourth dimensional space" is. Therefore, the burden of proof is on them to justify that claim.

if the profiles have an explanation or scans regardin that claim you are who needs to disproove it, if not then ya u may be right

 

[Telomera]

this has enough staff disagreements

The only staff disagreeing is Qawsedf. KLOL's vote doesn't count

 

[Telomera]

I dont have a horse on the race besides not considering tails a valid source of information is wild.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Kurokitomo]

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Alrighty. My apologies.

 

[Theuser789]

if the profiles have an explanation or scans regardin that claim you are who needs to disproove it, if not then ya u may be right

This is correct. A downgrade CRT needs to explain why the current used sources are wrong, not that the claim doesn't feel enough for you. Unless you have the authority to evaluate ratings, like staff.

 

[Qawsedf234]

opposition operate under the assumption that "fourth dimensional space" refers to 4+1-dimensional space. Why is the burden of proof on me to disprove that assumption?

Because the official translation, the one used in the linked thread as well, has it be fourth dimensional. You'd have to show that the translation was done incorrectly which is what the other thread was about. You can't say that it could be wrong, you'd have to show it is wrong.

this has enough staff disagreements

It doesn't.

 

[Telomera]

This is correct. A downgrade CRT needs to explain why the current used sources are wrong, not that the claim doesn't feel enough for you. Unless you have the authority to evaluate ratings, like staff.

Whatever. Would you at least agree that the arguments essentially boil down to the "fourth dimension space" statements and the tesseract looking thingy? Qawsedf said that the worlds looking "flat" is at best supporting evidence and that space being warped isn't exclusive to higher dimensional structures at all, although you are free to disagree with him.

 

[JJSliderman]

Whatever. Would you at least agree that the arguments essentially boil down to the "fourth dimension space" statements and the tesseract looking thingy? Qawsedf said that the worlds looking "flat" is at best supporting evidence and that space being warped isn't exclusive to higher dimensional structures at all, although you are free to disagree with him.

No because you keep ignoring otherworld’s super-dimensional statement.

Cyberspace is also on a different dimensional plane according to Sage.

 

[Telomera]

Because the official translation, the one used in the linked thread as well, has it be fourth dimensional. You'd have to show that the translation was done incorrectly which is what the other thread was about. You can't say that it could be wrong, you'd have to show it is wrong.

It doesn't.

"Dimension" has different meanings in English as well. It being translated as "fourth dimension space" is still vague and not remotely the same as the translation saying "geometrically four-dimensional space." I am not arguing that the translation is wrong, but rather that it is too vague.

 

[Theuser789]

Would you at least agree that the arguments essentially boil down to the "fourth dimension space" statements and the tesseract looking thingy?

No, I don't, because your debunk is half-baked because you completely ignored the Egg-Field that would still keep everything at 5-D even if you were right.