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Kamen Rider Geats vs Holo

Extremely important advice: Restrict Magnum Shooter for civilian Ace fights.
Holo doesn't need to get wiped from existence thanks to the funni called 1-c gun
 
Extremely important advice: Restrict Magnum Shooter for civilian Ace fights.
Holo doesn't need to get wiped from existence thanks to the funni called 1-c gun
Figured the 9-B thing clarified that, but I will add it more explicitely to the OP.
 
To the topic at hand, a metaphorical fox vs an actual giant wolf.

To start this off, Ace massively overtakes her in the skill department, or at least the know-how to deal with giant beasts like her. In his first life of his over 2 millennia "life" span, he was a Roman, so he would have been conscripted to the battlefield some time in his life. In such battlefields, Romans had to fight off against/herd and use elephants in battle, and those bois are bigger than Holo here. His extensive knowledge would allow him to easily think of ways to defeat Holo. With that out of the way...

The very big problem he will have here is that he's practically empty-handed. Not only is he outranged if he goes into fisticuffs with her, but one wrong mistake, and he'll be unable to escape Holo's paw or hold or what have you. Even though he has the AP advantage (his casual 70.8 KJ compared to Holo's 50.5), there's not much he can do to adequately attack her before she does anything substantial. No weapons lying around, and any other item he can find in and around Central Park wouldn't be enough against a behemoth like that. Her combat speed would be equalised to his, but she can still run fast enough to catch Ace if he so chooses to run away. And don't get me started on that LS diff. Don't get me wrong, Ace is an exceptional fighter, and can dodge and weave around her attacks, but if he gets hit at least once, it's highly likely she'll get to use her LS stat well, and he'd be in her mercy. Either that, or I'm heavily overestimating what Holo can do, since he still has the upper hand in AP/Dura.

Most of what Ace has on him can only be used in Rider Form, so he's limited to throwing them at her to deal some sort of ranged damage. It wouldn't be much, but they would hurt, I guess. And he has canonically done it once, too!

His Supernatural Luck can more often than not save him from hairy situations and hinder Holo throughout the battle. Protruding roots can aid in tripping and slowing her down, beehives can suddenly drop onto her from the trees, and just about anything in the surrounding that can be metaphorically thrown onto her face. But it can only do so much before Holo just powers through, dodges or something and tag Ace. His Desire amp would be very potent here, since Lamentation arc was where he was the closest to fulfilling his desire of meeting his mum, and because that opportunity slipped away from his fingers, he'd be more determined than ever to win a match like this. This wouldn't be much of a factor in usual hand-to-hand fights, but in Ace's eyes, he's fighting against a beast in what he perceives to be a life or death fight, not some martial artist that would knock him out or something. Desire Amp would kick in almost immediately, and he'd equalise any lower stats he got to Holo's, and mitigate any weaknesses he'd have here. Although, I know this shit would be contested (which I'm willing to debate lol).

There is one very impactful "weapon" he has against her; the Boostriker. Thanks to its subsonic speed, he'll be out of Holo's attack range due to outspeeding her tremendously. Not only that, but he can also "jump" into the air (or onto walls if they make it to the city) to dodge attacks and/or ram against her where she can't counterattack (like driving behind her legs or neck and ramming right at those places). This is the only use his Buckles (specifically the Boost Buckle) will have without transformation, beyond the unconventional ranged attack. Though, his summoning takes a while, and Holo might get a hit or two already, or even worse. But this is usually when supernatural luck comes to save his ass, so there's that to consider.

The better and more reliable answer to that is his limited teleportation! It's only limited because he can only teleport to and from this specific location, which is god know how high up in the sky. Given how he can just "materialise" his belt from thin air, this motion to teleport is way faster than you think. Then he can just drop from there riding his bike, and we have him on his Boostriker safely without the interference of any grubby paws!

Basically, he'll have problems fighting Holo normally, but he'll have more than what it takes to take her down when on his bike that he safely deploys from somewhere Holo has no hopes of getting to

Figured the 9-B thing clarified that, but I will add it more explicitely to the OP.
Reiwa Riders now have the tendency to have their main rider weapons in civilian form, and they count as Standard Equipment. So it has to be clarified.
 
There is one very impactful "weapon" he has against her; the Boostriker. Thanks to its subsonic speed, he'll be out of Holo's attack range due to outspeeding her tremendously. Not only that, but he can also "jump" into the air (or onto walls if they make it to the city) to dodge attacks and/or ram against her where she can't counterattack (like driving behind her legs or neck and ramming right at those places). This is the only use his Buckles (specifically the Boost Buckle) will have without transformation, beyond the unconventional ranged attack. Though, his summoning takes a while, and Holo might get a hit or two already, or even worse. But this is usually when supernatural luck comes to save his ass, so there's that to consider.
Oh yeah, I forgot he has that. Actually, why is that mentioned nowhere in his speed section?

Now I wonder whether it would be fair to unequalize speed. That way he's faster on the bike and she's faster on foot :unsure:
 
I’m gonna be dead honest, I’d remove the Boost Striker.

If you did speed equal or speed unequal, Ace will always be faster than Holo. Un/equalizing the speed will determine just how fast the Boost Striker is when compared to her
 
Okay so my take on the fight. Ace has a crazy skill advantage and fighting larger enemies isn’t a problem for him. His decent AP advantage is also notable. His main concern in Holo just jumping on him, wild ass pic btw, but Ace’s teleportation would circumvent that. He could simply teleport in and out of the arena.
 
Even though he has the AP advantage (his casual 70.8 KJ compared to Holo's 50.5)
His decent AP advantage is also notable.
I noticed just now, but you missed that her linked AP blog has several calcs in it all of which got approved.

50 kJ is the AP for her casual attack, basically her just flicking he head. In the blog linked on her AP there are several AP calcs for her. Her peak AP is actually 730 kJ.

So Geats has a speed advantage with his bike, but Holo is stronger.
 
50 kJ is the AP for her casual attack, basically her just flicking he head. In the blog linked on her AP there are several AP calcs for her. Her peak AP is actually 730 kJ.
Shit, I missed that number since I have the habit of checking the last parts of the blog to check for values and such.
Now this is a big problem normally, but basically:
His Supernatural Luck can more often than not save him from hairy situations and hinder Holo throughout the battle. Protruding roots can aid in tripping and slowing her down, beehives can suddenly drop onto her from the trees, and just about anything in the surrounding that can be metaphorically thrown onto her face. But it can only do so much before Holo just powers through, dodges or something and tag Ace. His Desire amp would be very potent here, since Lamentation arc was where he was the closest to fulfilling his desire of meeting his mum, and because that opportunity slipped away from his fingers, he'd be more determined than ever to win a match like this. This wouldn't be much of a factor in usual hand-to-hand fights, but in Ace's eyes, he's fighting against a beast in what he perceives to be a life or death fight, not some martial artist that would knock him out or something. Desire Amp would kick in almost immediately, and he'd equalise any lower stats he got to Holo's, and mitigate any weaknesses he'd have here. Although, I know this shit would be contested (which I'm willing to debate lol).
She still has to go through his luck and getting his lower stats equalised to hers, which by that moment, Ace would be able to combat her without worrying about being one shot.
 
His Supernatural Luck can more often than not save him from hairy situations and hinder Holo throughout the battle. Protruding roots can aid in tripping and slowing her down, beehives can suddenly drop onto her from the trees, and just about anything in the surrounding that can be metaphorically thrown onto her face. But it can only do so much before Holo just powers through, dodges or something and tag Ace.
Problem with that is twofold:
  1. Holo has incredible senses, which would not let her walk into those kinds of things.
  2. None of the things you mentioned would slow her at all. Between thick fur, great bodymass with huge momentum, animal intimidation and the determination of a wild beast those things wouldn't do anything.
Desire Amp would kick in almost immediately, and he'd equalise any lower stats he got to Holo's, and mitigate any weaknesses he'd have here. Although, I know this shit would be contested (which I'm willing to debate lol).
You're right that would be contested.
So, which feats does he have of almost immediately getting x10 stronger and durable in his civilian form?
There is one very impactful "weapon" he has against her; the Boostriker. Thanks to its subsonic speed, he'll be out of Holo's attack range due to outspeeding her tremendously. Not only that, but he can also "jump" into the air (or onto walls if they make it to the city) to dodge attacks and/or ram against her where she can't counterattack (like driving behind her legs or neck and ramming right at those places). This is the only use his Buckles (specifically the Boost Buckle) will have without transformation, beyond the unconventional ranged attack. Though, his summoning takes a while, and Holo might get a hit or two already, or even worse. But this is usually when supernatural luck comes to save his ass, so there's that to consider.
Holo isn't a wise wolf for nothing. Seeing that two-wheeled carriage she will realize that there are environments more opportune for her to fight in than others.
Ultimately, a motorcycle is less agile than a legged creature and even with jumping needs a battlefield that is even and relatively unobstructed to do relatively wide turns in. A tight alley or similar could force him to confront her whole body.


Another thing to consider is Holo's immortality. She will be much tankier here than her stats suggest.
 
Goku solos both
image.png


Anyways following.
 
Okay so, Holo is 10x stronger while Ace would be ~3x stronger with BoostStriker. It really just depends on time now: Can Ace buy himself enough time for Desire Amps to kick in?

Desire amps rely on two factors. The threat of an enemy and the willingness of their user. Holo is much stronger than Ace, so threat is there. As for Will, Ace in this arc was beyond determined to find his mother. It was to the point where he even had to fight his friends and his “father” to the death to find any way to see her.

So for the potency of a Desire Amp. All Desire users are weaker than Ace as he’s essentially the God of Desires within the show. Through this,
  • Kamen Rider Tycoon had to fight against the Saboten Knight Jyamato. At this point, their attacks did very little and were no sold. After a Desire Amp, Tycoon was able to not only outpace but also deal immense damage to the Jyamato.
  • Later on, Tycoon fought against Bishop and Rook. Both of comparable to one another, Bishop needed Tycoon to use Command Twin, a form that amped the user by, I kid you not, 900x. Later on, Tycoon was able to utterly tank an attack from Rook while in base.

Before you ask, Desire amp scales off of the opponent. So if the opponents are 2x stronger, the user gets 2x stronger, 3x then 5x and so on. So they won’t get a higher end amp unless they need to. Also, as for the numbers and why they aren’t on Ace profile, it’s cause it’s outdated. We’re currently working on a revamp to split the page.
 
Okay so, Holo is 10x stronger while Ace would be ~3x stronger with BoostStriker.
3x Stronger?
Kamen Rider Tycoon had to fight against the Saboten Knight Jyamato. At this point, their attacks did very little and were no sold. After a Desire Amp, Tycoon was able to not only outpace but also deal immense damage to the Jyamato.
I don't think that sounds like it would be equivalent to a x10 boost. Also, if the user doesn't get stronger than the opponent how can outpacing happen?
Later on, Tycoon fought against Bishop and Rook. Both of comparable to one another, Bishop needed Tycoon to use Command Twin, a form that amped the user by, I kid you not, 900x. Later on, Tycoon was able to utterly tank an attack from Rook while in base.
WIth base do you mean civilian or transformed base?
Because that's a bit of a difference. Boosting your physical body alone is harder than that + superpower and supertech stuff. More levers to move that can aid in becoming stronger.
So unless his civilian form became 900x stronger, I don't think that would apply to this scenario.
 
You're right that would be contested.
So, which feats does he have of almost immediately getting x10 stronger and durable in his civilian form?

Pawn Jyamatos are the mooks of Geats. They can kill average humans easily, and they're capable of bringing down Kamen Riders (they don't have a profile yet, but they'd be about 8-B if so). They also apparently get stronger over the course, so they still pose a threat regardless of the arcs. That said, Geats and a few of his peers can actually square up against them while being able to take their hits without much issue. So like, basically a 9-B fighting against a few 8-Bs works thanks to Desire. It gets crazy, especially when Ace canonically defeated a bunch of Pawn Jyamatos before he even became a Rider in this latest life (yes, they have defeated other Pawn Jyamatos like this in certain parts of the series, but this is one of the craziest ones).
So basically, yes, Desire Amp isn't exclusive to Ace in his civilian form or even Ace at all.

Problem with that is twofold:
  1. Holo has incredible senses, which would not let her walk into those kinds of things.
  2. None of the things you mentioned would slow her at all. Between thick fur, great bodymass with huge momentum, animal intimidation and the determination of a wild beast those things wouldn't do anything.
I kinda doubt that. You know his luck means business when even minor unluckiness rendered 8-B Jyamatos (they might even be 1-C by now, dunno how we'll scale them in the later arcs) unable to fight (also with the supporting feat of a Rider in civilian form killing Jyamatos). If they can be put out of commission like that, I don't see how Holo wouldn't just follow in their footsteps, tho it isn't impossible; just not easy. Even if she somehow avoids all that it can throw, it also simultaneously aids him in combat, so she'd be annoyed regardless.

Also, I don't see how animal intimidation would work against non-living things or unusual coincidences and phenomena tampering with this match. And good luck trying to be as determined as Geats is, especially taking into account his circumstances in this specific arc.
His Desire amp would be very potent here, since Lamentation arc was where he was the closest to fulfilling his desire of meeting his mum, and because that opportunity slipped away from his fingers, he'd be more determined than ever to win a match like this. This wouldn't be much of a factor in usual hand-to-hand fights, but in Ace's eyes, he's fighting against a beast in what he perceives to be a life or death fight, not some martial artist that would knock him out or something.

Holo isn't a wise wolf for nothing. Seeing that two-wheeled carriage she will realize that there are environments more opportune for her to fight in than others.
Ultimately, a motorcycle is less agile than a legged creature and even with jumping needs a battlefield that is even and relatively unobstructed to do relatively wide turns in. A tight alley or similar could force him to confront her whole body.
While the wolf is wise, the fox is cunning. And also more wise apparently. I think Spice and Wolf's setting is a rural one, and although she does have centuries of wisdom, that's nothing against 2 millennia worth of it, especially ones that span throughout different times like the Roman age, the Edo period, and even the industrial revolution or something. The fact that she'll consider the motorcycle a two-wheeled carriage means a whole lot of difference in the wisdom department. Also I doubt it'd be hard to get to the cities from Central Park, and if he has some sort of disadvantage in the park, he can easily make a beeline to the city. Though then again, he has a sky view from the area he'll summon the bike in, so he can just map out where he needs to go.

Also he can just avoid places that give him less space altogether by just jumping really.

Another thing to consider is Holo's immortality. She will be much tankier here than her stats suggest.
More like harder to completely put down. While he has no knowledge of the wheat being her source of immortality, he might accidentally run it over via his luck if it ever pops out of her body or something. If she does get up from type 2, he won't make the same mistake twice.

EDIT: Can you tell me how the immortality type 2 works?
 
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It really just comes down to time. Whether or not you think Holo could kill Ace before Ace can use Desires to amp himself to her level.
 
Pawn Jyamatos are the mooks of Geats. They can kill average humans easily, and they're capable of bringing down Kamen Riders (they don't have a profile yet, but they'd be about 8-B if so). They also apparently get stronger over the course, so they still pose a threat regardless of the arcs. That said, Geats and a few of his peers can actually square up against them while being able to take their hits without much issue. So like, basically a 9-B fighting against a few 8-Bs works thanks to Desire. It gets crazy, especially when Ace canonically defeated a bunch of Pawn Jyamatos before he even became a Rider in this latest life (yes, they have defeated other Pawn Jyamatos like this in certain parts of the series, but this is one of the craziest ones).
So basically, yes, Desire Amp isn't exclusive to Ace in his civilian form or even Ace at all.
Eh, but then Geats isn't 9-B? If he can fight 8-B people, then he should be upgraded to 8-B...
I kinda doubt that. You know his luck means business when even minor unluckiness rendered 8-B Jyamatos (they might even be 1-C by now, dunno how we'll scale them in the later arcs) unable to fight (also with the supporting feat of a Rider in civilian form killing Jyamatos). If they can be put out of commission like that, I don't see how Holo wouldn't just follow in their footsteps, tho it isn't impossible; just not easy. Even if she somehow avoids all that it can throw, it also simultaneously aids him in combat, so she'd be annoyed regardless.

Also, I don't see how animal intimidation would work against non-living things or unusual coincidences and phenomena tampering with this match. And good luck trying to be as determined as Geats is, especially taking into account his circumstances in this specific arc.
Animal intimidation was brought up against bees.

And if 8-B beings aren't strong enough to deal with a root, then that's an anti-feat for them or PIS. There is no reasonable way a root would impact the movement of a 2.5 tons 9-B entity in the slightest.
While the wolf is wise, the fox is cunning. And also more wise apparently. I think Spice and Wolf's setting is a rural one, and although she does have centuries of wisdom, that's nothing against 2 millennia worth of it, especially ones that span throughout different times like the Roman age, the Edo period, and even the industrial revolution or something. The fact that she'll consider the motorcycle a two-wheeled carriage means a whole lot of difference in the wisdom department. Also I doubt it'd be hard to get to the cities from Central Park, and if he has some sort of disadvantage in the park, he can easily make a beeline to the city. Though then again, he has a sky view from the area he'll summon the bike in, so he can just map out where he needs to go.

Also he can just avoid places that give him less space altogether by just jumping really.
Yeah, but Holo isn't forced to follow him anywhere. So he can run away from the fight if it's in-character for him to just chicken out, sure, but Holo for one won't be obsessed with chasing him anywhere.
EDIT: Can you tell me how the immortality type 2 works?
The series doesn't focus deeply on the supernatural aspects, but from what one can gather, Holo's true body is the wheat she inhabits. She can even completely deconstruct her human/wolf form and life exclusively as the wheat. (She can technically also possess others under extremely specific circumstances, but I haven't added that yet)
In general, as long as the wheat exists she won't ever die.
However, she has no regeneration, so if you can injure her enough for her vitals to stop working she is incapped. But anything less won't put her down.
 
Eh, but then Geats isn't 9-B? If he can fight 8-B people, then he should be upgraded to 8-B...
That’s due to Desire Amps. As we said before, Ace’s profile is outdated. We’re actually trying to revamp it a bit before this match. If you want, you can look at our draft to see what we expect to change and apply it to this match.

The new profile will specify that the desire amp will vary in power and actually change some ratings. Specially, that 8-B feats in now a 8-C feat, and such
 
Eh, I see. If the profile's that outdated there probably is no point to this match. Too bad.
 
Eh, but then Geats isn't 9-B? If he can fight 8-B people, then he should be upgraded to 8-B...
Basically, it'd result into circular scaling. It wouldn't make sense to scale Ace to the Pawn Jyamatos when they themselves have been shown to be able to be a consistent threat to Riders to the point of being able to kill them. It would become like Ace < Pawn Jyamato but Ace transformed ~= Pawn Jyamato, and mess up the scaling a lot, especially since Rider forms are consistently more powerful than their civilian forms. If it were any other series, we can take these civilian fights as outliers, but the lore reason that is Desire Empowerment allows any Geats Riders to go against more powerful enemies when determined or pushed to a corner. Hence Ace stays in 9-B. Otherwise, a ******* human would be 1-C (since this arc has Riders be that high of a tier).

Animal intimidation was brought up against bees.
I don't think Holo's kind of intimidation would bring such a reaction to the bees. Mind you, they've dealt with shit like honey badgers constantly raiding their crib for honey, and their defense mechanism would just be to sting any living being threatening their sanctuary. Trying to do that to them would just end up being an inconvenience to Holo.

And if 8-B beings aren't strong enough to deal with a root, then that's an anti-feat for them or PIS. There is no reasonable way a root would impact the movement of a 2.5 tons 9-B entity in the slightest.
My intention wasn't that the enemy would get easily defeated by luck shenanigans, but that shit like that would befall them if they aren't careful. The AP part of this would definitely be an outlier, but mainly it's that via this quote in the wiki:

Meaning that things that normally shouldn't happen is going to happen, and it won't be easy to deal with them if unprepared. I'm not saying it's impossible to go through his luck (and we've kinda agreed that Holo would power through in the end or something, idk), but time would be lost in dealing with the shit his luck concocts, no matter how short they may be. The time better spent getting Geats is instead spent on trying to wipe away the paint covering your face and invading your eye sockets, to throw in an example when they get to the city part.

Yeah, but Holo isn't forced to follow him anywhere. So he can run away from the fight if it's in-character for him to just chicken out, sure, but Holo for one won't be obsessed with chasing him anywhere.
Uhh SBA states otherwise:

Also I imagine Ace would just be dangling a chance for Holo to successfully attack him right in front of her, then when she tries to take it, he'll just ever so slightly outpace her or go behind and smack her in the head. Then rinse and repeat till he gets to where he needs to be to adequately fight her with his bike. It doesn't stop him from fighting her at any point once he has his bike though.

The series doesn't focus deeply on the supernatural aspects, but from what one can gather, Holo's true body is the wheat she inhabits. She can even completely deconstruct her human/wolf form and life exclusively as the wheat. (She can technically also possess others under extremely specific circumstances, but I haven't added that yet)
In general, as long as the wheat exists she won't ever die.
However, she has no regeneration, so if you can injure her enough for her vitals to stop working she is incapped. But anything less won't put her down.
Where does the wheat pouch go in her wolf form? I suppose there wouldn't be wheat lying around in Central Park, so that's the only go-to for her immo 2.
Anyways, Ace can incap her if he gets the edge in combat. Also, Kamen Rider Physiology (which Geats has as an ability) has listed Explosion Manip as part of the ability set. Obviously this doesn't mean Ace punching someone casually would immediately make them explode, but his weapons do count in making boom booms. Turns out attacking with Boostriker can also cause explosions... So make of it what you will.
 
Eh, I see. If the profile's that outdated there probably is no point to this match.
Oof, oh well.
Also, Lamentation arc wouldn't be touch till a while later anyways, the revision is going to split Geats into two profiles (till Conspiracy last part) so yea.
 
Basically, it'd result into circular scaling. It wouldn't make sense to scale Ace to the Pawn Jyamatos when they themselves have been shown to be able to be a consistent threat to Riders to the point of being able to kill them. It would become like Ace < Pawn Jyamato but Ace transformed ~= Pawn Jyamato, and mess up the scaling a lot, especially since Rider forms are consistently more powerful than their civilian forms. If it were any other series, we can take these civilian fights as outliers, but the lore reason that is Desire Empowerment allows any Geats Riders to go against more powerful enemies when determined or pushed to a corner. Hence Ace stays in 9-B. Otherwise, a ******* human would be 1-C (since this arc has Riders be that high of a tier).


I don't think Holo's kind of intimidation would bring such a reaction to the bees. Mind you, they've dealt with shit like honey badgers constantly raiding their crib for honey, and their defense mechanism would just be to sting any living being threatening their sanctuary. Trying to do that to them would just end up being an inconvenience to Holo.


My intention wasn't that the enemy would get easily defeated by luck shenanigans, but that shit like that would befall them if they aren't careful. The AP part of this would definitely be an outlier, but mainly it's that via this quote in the wiki:


Meaning that things that normally shouldn't happen is going to happen, and it won't be easy to deal with them if unprepared. I'm not saying it's impossible to go through his luck (and we've kinda agreed that Holo would power through in the end or something, idk), but time would be lost in dealing with the shit his luck concocts, no matter how short they may be. The time better spent getting Geats is instead spent on trying to wipe away the paint covering your face and invading your eye sockets, to throw in an example when they get to the city part.


Uhh SBA states otherwise:


Also I imagine Ace would just be dangling a chance for Holo to successfully attack him right in front of her, then when she tries to take it, he'll just ever so slightly outpace her or go behind and smack her in the head. Then rinse and repeat till he gets to where he needs to be to adequately fight her with his bike. It doesn't stop him from fighting her at any point once he has his bike though.


Where does the wheat pouch go in her wolf form? I suppose there wouldn't be wheat lying around in Central Park, so that's the only go-to for her immo 2.
Anyways, Ace can incap her if he gets the edge in combat. Also, Kamen Rider Physiology (which Geats has as an ability) has listed Explosion Manip as part of the ability set. Obviously this doesn't mean Ace punching someone casually would immediately make them explode, but his weapons do count in making boom booms. Turns out attacking with Boostriker can also cause explosions... So make of it what you will.
normal kicks/punches can cause explosions ep1 (magnum on top) his kicks can cause them to go boom ( we also see buffa beat a Jyamatos rider in entry form) when ace is not throwing the fight when he was fighting a Jyamatos rider as human his best feat is "" not dying"' / punching and kicking for the "push back"
 
normal kicks/punches can cause explosions ep1 (magnum on top) his kicks can cause them to go boom ( we also see buffa beat a Jyamatos rider in entry form) when ace is not throwing the fight when he was fighting a Jyamatos rider as human his best feat is "" not dying"' / punching and kicking for the "push back"
Outdated profile, wait till revision.
 
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