• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Pokemon: Ho-Oh & Lugia Upgrades

ProfessorKukui4Life

ProfessorKukui4Life

Messages
17,167
Reaction score
5,027
Making this because I took note of the current ratings for the Legendary Birds, and thought this would be worth bringing back up. I made a thread for this years ago, also, so this isn't something entirely new....buut, here goes nothing.

Anyways, the point of this thread, is to basically "re-upgrade" Ho-Oh, and by extension Lugia, back to at least High 6-B. A big while back, during the "Pokemon: I Choose You!" movie, Ho-Oh has a feat where one if it's feathers, the Rainbow Wing, creates a large dark storm over the mountain range after it gets corrupted, using it's energy here:



Around that time, a calc was made for the feat that made it reach High 6-B. A new calc could be made, if desired, but otherwise thats where the feat expectedly stands at. And since this was done with just a single one of Ho-Oh's feathers, arguably a weakened feather at that, obviously this would be a notable re-upgrade if it comes to pass.

I would like to say, because this will most likely be brought up, the feat's only issue at the time was the whole "KE vs CAPE" situation to my knowledge. CAPE more often becomes the go-to method for storm feats, if KE can't be proven somehow. In this particular case, KE should be able to be applied based on how we see the feat be performed. Unlike typical storm creation, the clouds from the storm were moving towards the Rainbow Wing's energy beam, rather than being created and generated forth, suggesting the clouds were pulled towards it. Because of that, KE should be fine to use with this, and if so, the upgrade can stand. But im not a calc group member, so thoughts on this regarding that would be appreciated.

Thats all. Other legendaries would be affected by this too if this is accepted, like the legendary birds & dogs.
 
I'd like to raise an issue with the scaling. I'm actually not entirely sure the legendary birds scale to this since the Lugia in the Movie 2,000 is notably weaker than others of its kind we've met, such as the one in the Hoopa movie, but I'll focus on the more obvious issue, the legendary beasts, who are scaled to the legendary birds based on nothing but the fact they're both legendaries in adjacent regions.

Outside of the scaling which is kind of a separate issue, the revision itself looks good.
 
Last edited:
Random-Helper323 said:
I'd like to raise an issue with the scaling. I'm actually not entirely sure the legendary birds scale to this since the Lugia in the Movie 2,000 is notably weaker than others of its kind we've met, such as the one in the Hoopa movie, but I'll focus on the more obvious issue, the legendary beasts, who are scaled to the legendary birds based on nothing but the fact they're both legendaries in adjacent regions.

Outside of the scaling which is kind of a separate issue, the revision itself looks good.
Click to expand...

I’ve had similar thoughts regarding Lugia, but here’s my thing to that as well.

I’ve come to notice that a lot of our tiering for Legendaries is based off extremely big conservative tiering. Or, in other words, their tiers comes from feats that are super casual for them, and are far from what’s actually considered to be their true levels of power.

For example, in Lugias case, its current tier comes from a feat that’s done just by literally flapping its wings. Alternatively, even Ho Ohs feat as well, like I mentioned here, is from just a single feather. Either one you want to take, both tier 6 feats are extremely casual feats for the both of them and don’t actually display a serious demonstration of what their full power would be. So while Lugia from the Hoopa movie showed much higher scaling for battling Hoopa, I wouldn’t say the 2000 movie Lugia is automatically weaker. An argument can be made to say battling Hoopa actually demonstrates Lugia using more serious levels of power than what we’ve seen prior. You know, an actual ceiling of Lugias true power.

So one could either do something like a varies rating, or Lugia/Ho-Oh just end up getting better scaling all together. That’s what I think regarding this.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I’ve had similar thoughts regarding Lugia, but here’s my thing to that as well.

I’ve come to notice that a lot of our tiering for Legendaries is based off extremely big conservative tiering. Or, in other words, their tiers comes from feats that are super casual for them, and are far from what’s actually considered to be their true levels of power.

For example, in Lugias case, its current tier comes from a feat that’s done just by literally flapping its wings. Alternatively, even Ho Ohs feat as well, like I mentioned here, is from just a single feather. Either one you want to take, both tier 6 feats are extremely casual feats for the both of them and don’t actually display a serious demonstration of what their full power would be. So while Lugia from the Hoopa movie showed much higher scaling for battling Hoopa, I wouldn’t say the 2000 movie Lugia is automatically weaker. An argument can be made to say battling Hoopa actually demonstrates Lugia using more serious levels of power than what we’ve seen prior. You know, an actual ceiling of Lugias true power.

So one could either do something like a varies rating, or Lugia/Ho-Oh just end up getting better scaling all together. That’s what I think regarding this.
Click to expand...
If we are getting Lugia's rating from the flapping wings entry, then every Lugia should scale to it.

Scaling the birds to this feather feat is another thing
 
Ezaru said:
If we are getting Lugia's rating from the flapping wings entry, then every Lugia should scale to it.

Scaling the birds to this feather feat is another thing
Click to expand...

I really don’t see the difference though when Ho-Ohs feat is every much as casual as Lugias. It’s from one single feather of Ho-Ohs, and every Ho-Oh has rainbow wings.
 
It's established in the games that individual feathers do have some kind of power (the Rainbow and Silver Wings in the Gen 2 games and their remakes), so it's not unique or unreasonable to treat this as a thing that can happen, and the fact the shed feathers allow for some connection to the bird in question supports the notion that the feather has a tiny fragment of the bird's power.

Update: the feather also floats and glows when near the bird in the remakes.
 
Last edited:
Random-Helper323 said:
It's established in the games that individual feathers do have some kind of power (the Rainbow and Silver Wings in the Gen 2 games and their remakes), so it's not unique or unreasonable to treat this as a thing that can happen, and the fact the shed feathers allow for some connection to the bird in question supports the notion that the feather has a tiny fragment of the bird's power.

Update: the feather also floats and glows when near the bird in the remakes.
Click to expand...

This should also be easier for this to fall in line, especially since the canon split was reversed
 
Hypertornado099 said:
This Ho-Oh is different from the other ones however, the birds don't scale to Ho-Oh in this movie
Click to expand...
In my thoughts, there are two ways to make this work.

Option 1: Scale Ho-Oh's feat only to Lugia, but either treat the 2000 Lugia as a weakling for his kind or treat the birds totaling him as PIS.

Option 2: Acknowledge that all the birds' Tier 6 feats are the most casual feats imaginable and thus do not represent their upper limit whatsoever, and just scale all of them higher.
 
Last edited:
Different Legendary Pokemon of the same species can have different power levels, even in the same canon

In the anime there's an Articuno strong enough to take Journey's Pikachu's super effective Thunderbolt, a super effective Pyro Ball from Cinderace and Lucario's Aura Sphere (who at this point of time is comparable to Pikachu), and is strong enough to KO Ash and Goh's Pokemon even while using a not very effective move. This puts Articuno above almost every single legendary in the whole series, including Lugia, who's stronger than other Articuno

And then there's the Hoopa movie, which like, shows multiple legendary Pokemon like Rayquaza being not equal to other legendaries of the same species shown in different episodes, I could elaborate more if you needed a better explanation

I know I didn't list a lot of examples, but its not like there's anything that proves the opposite of what I said
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Different Legendary Pokemon of the same species can have different power levels, even in the same canon

In the anime there's an Articuno strong enough to take Journey's Pikachu's super effective Thunderbolt, a super effective Pyro Ball from Cinderace and Lucario's Aura Sphere (who at this point of time is comparable to Pikachu), and is strong enough to KO Ash and Goh's Pokemon even while using a not very effective move. This puts Articuno above almost every single legendary in the whole series, including Lugia, who's stronger than other Articuno

And then there's the Hoopa movie, which like, shows multiple legendary Pokemon like Rayquaza being not equal to other legendaries of the same species shown in different episodes, I could elaborate more if you needed a better explanation

I know I didn't list a lot of examples, but its not like there's anything that proves the opposite of what I said
Click to expand...

Well, here’s the thing.

Firstly, even if different multiples of legendaries have different levels of power, that doesn’t actually make them “different” from each other, as that’s just a reflection on their feats rather than any real differentiation between them. The Rainbow Wing feat from Ho-Oh should still apply to every Ho-Oh, especially because of how insanely casual this feat is for it arguably not even being a fraction of Ho-Ohs power doing the feat.

But more importantly, this matter of different legendaries with different power levels is moreso just a discussion about how to generally treat the more common legendaries that aren’t Arceus or the god tiers. We could have that discussion first somewhere else if wanting to put this thread on hold, but for the matter of this specific thread, it’s really not focused on that particular issue.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Firstly, even if different multiples of legendaries have different levels of power, that doesn’t actually make them “different” from each other, as that’s just a reflection on their feats rather than any real differentiation between them. The Rainbow Wing feat from Ho-Oh should still apply to every Ho-Oh, especially because of how insanely casual this feat is for it arguably not even being a fraction of Ho-Ohs power doing the feat.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying their different species, I'm saying they can have different stats despite being the same species. There are more than 1 legendary Pokemon of the same species, mind you. The feat being uber casual doesn't make it scale to every other Ho-Oh

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
But more importantly, this matter of different legendaries with different power levels is moreso just a discussion about how to generally treat the more common legendaries that aren’t Arceus or the god tiers. We could have that discussion first somewhere else if wanting to put this thread on hold, but for the matter of this specific thread, it’s really not focused on that particular issue.
Click to expand...
I brought this up because you mentioned in this thread that this CRT that other legendaries would be affected too. So yeah this thread is in fact focused on that
 
Hypertornado099 said:
I'm not saying their different species, I'm saying they can have different stats despite being the same species. There are more than 1 legendary Pokemon of the same species, mind you. The feat being uber casual doesn't make it scale to every other Ho-Oh
Click to expand...

Yes, but having different stats is one thing. Not scaling to a casual feat would be another. It’s not as if there’s a variant of Ho-Oh that’s inferior to this feat or, like, around the level of mid stages. The rainbow wings feat should be the bare minimum of where Ho-Ohs tier can start at, generally speaking.

If this were more serious like scaling to the Primal Trio or something, that would be a different story.

Hypertornado099 said:
I brought this up because you mentioned in this thread that this CRT that other legendaries would be affected too. So yeah this thread is in fact focused on that
Click to expand...

Other legendaries would be effected because they scale from Ho-Oh is my point. Ho-Oh = Lugia. The legendary birds scale from Lugia, the legendary dog trio is comparable to them, etc.

But if there’s a problem with this because of the scaling of the legendaries in general, then we should first get a consensus on how to treat legendaries in general in order to reach a conclusion for this.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Other legendaries would be effected because they scale from Ho-Oh is my point. Ho-Oh = Lugia. The legendary birds scale from Lugia, the legendary dog trio is comparable to them, etc.

But if there’s a problem with this because of the scaling of the legendaries in general, then we should first get a consensus on how to treat legendaries in general in order to reach a conclusion for this.
Click to expand...
Ok, that can be discussed in another CRT
 
Calc was rejected by Bambu though.
It should be re-done probably.

Also,
Ho-Oh's wings have 29 outer feathers. It has 25 fore-feathers and finally at least 14 tail feathers.
That's anywhere from a 29x to a 68x multiplier.
 
Arceus0x said:
Calc was rejected by Bambu though.
It should be re-done probably.

Also,
Ho-Oh's wings have 29 outer feathers. It has 25 fore-feathers and finally at least 14 tail feathers.
That's anywhere from a 29x to a 68x multiplier.
Click to expand...

IIRC, the calc was only rejected because back then we were strict with having storm feats using CAPE, which doesn’t apply here because there’s an argument for this using KE.

A recalc wouldn’t hurt though if it’s necessary.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
IIRC, the calc was only rejected because back then we were strict with having storm feats using CAPE, which doesn’t apply here because there’s an argument for this using KE.

A recalc wouldn’t hurt though if it’s necessary.
Click to expand...
I may try n figure it out later.
 
Just to note, I believe Executor used 2/3rds of the height because Ash and co. were almost to the very top of the mountain, since that’s where you have to go to meet Ho-Oh.

But, as I said, I’m not a calc group member so take what I say regarding appropriate values with a grain of salt.

Maybe @Executor_N0 could be of help with this (if someone can tag him anyway)?
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Just to note, I believe Executor used 2/3rds of the height because Ash and co. were almost to the very top of the mountain, since that’s where you have to go to meet Ho-Oh.
Click to expand...
doesn't really justify 2/3rds and the height from which our POV was located was alligned with the mountain peak.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Don't say stuff like that. It's inappropriate.
Click to expand...
it's a meme bro
ppkh1tbtn9s31.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Arceus0x
  • Locked
The Ho-Oh upscale
Replies
31
Views
3K
Arceus0x
Arceus0x
ProfessorKukui4Life
Pokemon: Mew (And others) Upgrade
Replies
8
Views
1K
Mbpoops
Mbpoops
LIFE_OF_KING
Destroying a planet and KE
Replies
2
Views
838
Floxy178
Floxy178
Breadbear83
Lifting strength formula for spinning a spear at high speed
Replies
13
Views
689
LaserPrecision
LaserPrecision
Totentanz2440
Saiga Riki-Oh upgrade, 9-A -> 7-B
Replies
24
Views
1K
Totentanz2440
Totentanz2440
Back
Top