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Try to calm down, there's no need to humiliate Damage like that
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Infinite Zamasu: A dreadful upgrade
- Thread starter TiltedFN
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I'll take that under consideration, have a nice day.
It's alright, I'm not humiliated. More like experiencing second-hand embarassment that a person could post those kinds of things and think they look cool doing it.
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Burden isn't on me, it's on the people making the dozen unfounded claims, it's on the OP who wants the suggestion to be passed, that's how CRT's work. You have to prove it, especially for tier 1 anything.
Not how this works. Every single facet needs to be proven by OP, it hasn't. Simply asserting something as true means quite literally nothing, only the source material does.
OP can say whatever they want, you can say whatever YOU want, but unless the anime itself says those things, tough luck, we're not here to index extrapolation or conjecture.
Yeah funny that though, I'm not asserting a thing, and precisely because of that I want evidence, because damn right we want evidence, we can only work with what's actually shown and stated, if it isn't shown or stated, we don't fill in HUGE blanks with interpretations that can be filled in with equally valid ones that don't lead to the proclaimed verdict.
But all the same, i could, in fact, assert a bunch of things, and it would be completely, equally, valid, because it'd have just as much backing as the claims being made here (Ie, that is to say, simply conjecture and extrapolation without concrete proof).
In fact I very well might begin doing so to show how the alleged verdict, isn't even remotely as concrete as one would be led to believe.
Unfortunate as it might be, it better be solidly constructed. That in and of itself is grounds to reject it.
And you say refutation. The refutation is there's no proof, it's simply "i think it is so it is", or asserting a stance on a facet that is very much open ended. We don't do that here, it either is, or it isn't, there's no real inbetween.
Lad you can't say "with all due respect", and then follow it up accusations.
Accuse people and get sent to RVR btw.
But hey if you want to chime in, why don't you give proof? Show me a statement saying it was done through raw power, show me IZ using his size to attack offensively so the size=AP argument can even be a thing, show me statements saying it was done through raw power alone (the fusing I mean), show me it altered the hypertimeline in a way beyond fusing (as to qualify for the "effected thing in meaningful way" caveat), show me the breaching of timelines was done via power not hax despite what the anime actively leads you to believe by bringing up hax methods, show me that his extreme circumstances played no part in it let alone his abilities, show me the mythical wiki rule where we auto give stats for things like this, show me direct evidence that energy in this context which by admission of everyone here isn't even just raw ki is actually just raw ki, show me statements saying his power output grew in conjunction with his fusing, show me rule where we give AP for smurf hax or existence, while you're at it, show me a statement saying he fused with the hyper timeline at all because going through the episode, I'm pretty sure we have a direct statement that he didn't fuse with the hypertimeline and simply the worlds embedded in it.
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I have nothing to prove to anyone, even less here, but I just gave an opinion because I have the impression that you are not too involved in this CRT apart from saying that you agree with this cart without even saying why, so I never wanted to be disrespectful, far from it, I just ask that you focus on this thread, reread when you have time and make your own opinion because it may end up changing your mind.
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If you don't want to be disrespectful, than don't post disrespectful comments, it's not hard.
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Ok then don't derail.
Bro, FRA is like 90% of the wiki, where have you been?
By that logic throw out every agreement too they're all FRA.
Why are you assuming people haven't already, should we assume people who agree haven't read OP either and just agreed because idk, they aren't focused and can't make an opinion?
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Saqphire
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After reading Chariot and co’s rebuttals, I’m actually inclined to disagree not just with the upgrade, but with the accepted feat itself aswell as Zeno’s feat on him, due to the simple fact that the hypertimeline was never destroyed, and nor was the ”future” timeline (otherwise Goku and co wouldnt be able to get Future Zeno to the present), and Zamasu actually merging with the hypertimeline is just extrapolation + kind of got ruined by someone pointing out how Black and IZ have the same type of vortex, but Black’s vortex is for time travelling
Killerdrone123
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Before you guys get ahead of yourself time ring which represents the timeline was destroyed pretty much confirming the fact that the very timeline was destroyed not to mention whis also says that the timeline is destroyed,zeno preety much himself says everything is gone,not to mention how they have to completely shift trunks and mai to a whole another timeline as mentioned by whis which has there own version of trunks and mai
Also no time travel shown in cell saga is way different than time travel in black Goku arc bulma literally says it in the manga that it is not time travel in general sense but more so dimensional travel and pilaf installed a plug which helped them to do dimensional travel freely without any conditions so they just simply went back to the cordinates where future trunks timeline was located before it got destroyed and just simply went back to the same co-ordinate rather than doing some classic time travel
So the feat is preety much well explained in the manga much better than anime at the very least but hypertimeline was destroyed it is stated many times and depicted as such also can we put an end to this topic it was debated hella lot back in the day with same arguments not to mention it also derails the main objective of the thread
Also no time travel shown in cell saga is way different than time travel in black Goku arc bulma literally says it in the manga that it is not time travel in general sense but more so dimensional travel and pilaf installed a plug which helped them to do dimensional travel freely without any conditions so they just simply went back to the cordinates where future trunks timeline was located before it got destroyed and just simply went back to the same co-ordinate rather than doing some classic time travel
So the feat is preety much well explained in the manga much better than anime at the very least but hypertimeline was destroyed it is stated many times and depicted as such also can we put an end to this topic it was debated hella lot back in the day with same arguments not to mention it also derails the main objective of the thread
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HelloThere1089
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*pretty
Killerdrone123
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Alright, can someone summarise for me how exactly this has been overcomplicated way beyond measure since I went to sleep?
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Of course, all this would be valid if there wasn't the website itself confirming that the timeline was erased and that Trunks traveled to another timeline, the fact that Goku fetches Zeno the version from the future is because the machine has dimensional travel (which is possible even to go to timeless voids).
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reading through all the arguments, Chariot makes the most sense.
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Okay. From what I'm reading here. Chariot's arguments basically amount to:
"Merging with the timeline wouldn't equate to AP unless he has feats of using that AP"
"Zamasu didn't physically merge with the timeline so he doesn't scale physically"
I don't understand how anyone with any level of knowledge of Dragon Ball or its power systems would begin to make these claims. Zamasu himself still has energy. This energy, his Ki, is still felt by characters like Beerus and Whis in another timeline. And it is stated his energy is what is having an effect on time itself. In other words, Zamasu's very energy or power is having a Low 1-C effect on existence. As a UES, that means it pertains to AP as well.
On top of that, the will and thoughts stuff? Doesn't matter. Ki was accepted as synonymous with the Soul in the context of Dragon Ball. You can look at the Ki Manipulation page right now. Zamasu's soul was not destroyed by Trunks. Only his physical vessel. That means his Ki still exists. And his Ki is what is powering his will, his thoughts.
In short, due to the presence of a UES, the usage of the term 'energy' and how Ki itself is not a corporeal thing intrinsically and is accepted as pertaining to the soul itself (which Trunks did not destroy) I see zero reason to not scale Infinite Zamasu's AP to his own feat. The argument of corporeality is pointless.
"Merging with the timeline wouldn't equate to AP unless he has feats of using that AP"
"Zamasu didn't physically merge with the timeline so he doesn't scale physically"
I don't understand how anyone with any level of knowledge of Dragon Ball or its power systems would begin to make these claims. Zamasu himself still has energy. This energy, his Ki, is still felt by characters like Beerus and Whis in another timeline. And it is stated his energy is what is having an effect on time itself. In other words, Zamasu's very energy or power is having a Low 1-C effect on existence. As a UES, that means it pertains to AP as well.
On top of that, the will and thoughts stuff? Doesn't matter. Ki was accepted as synonymous with the Soul in the context of Dragon Ball. You can look at the Ki Manipulation page right now. Zamasu's soul was not destroyed by Trunks. Only his physical vessel. That means his Ki still exists. And his Ki is what is powering his will, his thoughts.
In short, due to the presence of a UES, the usage of the term 'energy' and how Ki itself is not a corporeal thing intrinsically and is accepted as pertaining to the soul itself (which Trunks did not destroy) I see zero reason to not scale Infinite Zamasu's AP to his own feat. The argument of corporeality is pointless.
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IIRC, the ones who send those aren't different than the readers. Things added there isn't really accurate by being there. (I've remember seeing them use fan translations as well, maybe i remember it wrong though :d)
I'm not saying it's wrong or anything though, just not really reliable.
CelestialVortex01
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This pretty much clears up my thoughts, I faithfully agree with the thread
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Ngl, i do lean towards chariot args and we should probably treat it as hax like do we even know if that flow of energy is even ki and not some sort of other abstract energy?. idk there seems to be too much speculation and interpretation here but again i amnot that knoweldageable about dbs and am kinda new, so probably missed some info or something.
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There is no evidence of another form of energy existing. Ki itself is already treated as abstract. It just becomes physical when converted via a vessel. Which, incidentally, is just like Infinite Zamasu firing energy lasers from his own 'body'. He converts a formless energy into a material energy just like Ki. Unless we have proof or reason to believe it's some sort of new type of energy we have no reason to assert it isn't Ki.
Wonder_of_Fantasy
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I’m now confident enough to agree with Chariot's findings.
The very fact that the Time Machine could return to the Hypertimeline at all seems like a major contradiction to the idea that Zeno destroyed it too, rather than just Future Universe 7 within said Hypertimeline.
The very fact that the Time Machine could return to the Hypertimeline at all seems like a major contradiction to the idea that Zeno destroyed it too, rather than just Future Universe 7 within said Hypertimeline.
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Totally wrong, this is a summary of the previous sagas, the translations that they put on their own website come from them, it's an official DB website, where it tells character stories, summaries of the sagas, announcements about the franchise, and other things, the part of Zeno erasing the timeline is shown in both the manga and the anime, so there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
The only thing that isn't reliable here is when someone says that Zeno didn't erase the timeline, the site is totally reliable, nothing is posted there without authorization or by a fan.
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Time Machines in Dragon Ball are space-time machines. They hop between parallel worlds or 'dimensions'. All they did was go to where Trunks' timeline used to be.
CelestialVortex01
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Killerdrone123
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Proceeds to clearly ignore what I said about it
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The fact that the machine gets back there through dimensional travel and can go into timeless voids, the timeline is fully confirmed by multiple times having been destroyed, and the time ring disappearing with it only explains obvious, Chariot's, not a good source of knowledge when it comes to DB, and all that was left of the timeline was nothing less than a void left by Zeno'oh himself.
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I'm not that much into Dragon Ball anymore but from what I recall, didn't Goku, Vegeta and Trunk's ki was blocked when came in direct contact with Zamasu? Shouldn't that suggest there is some sort of physical activity happening there?
This shouldn't be possible if it was all abstract, no?
This shouldn't be possible if it was all abstract, no?
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What the ****-**** is going on here?
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That's a pretty big issue when there shouldn't be a place it used to be to go back to if we're talking destruction a Low 1-C scale.
Dimensional travel, to what dimension though?
Yeah, but we're not talking about timelines, we're talking a hypertimeline. 4D time and 5D time aren't the same thing.
Mayhaps a point, but then that leads to a dozen other problems.
Why? Because I don't extrapolate?
Give solid proof, it's required, if one can not do so, there's nothing to argue.
Would look the same even if he didn't destroy the hypertimeline. This is exactly what I mean, you're extrapolating.
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They travel between voids and there is no evidence the hypertimeline still exists. As it stands the hypertimeline being erased is what is accepted. So arguing this is pointless.
Killerdrone123
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As it stands timeline represented by the time rings is the one that is hypertimeline bulma scan preety much tells us the fact they aren't doing conventional time travel as she very much says it is just going into parallel worlds so no they aren't using literal time travel to go into trunks timeline
Wonder_of_Fantasy
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That is right. Was the Time Ring destroyed in the anime at the same time too?
Also the manga and anime had drastically different events happen in this arc. IZ didn’t even do the Giygas abstractify thing like he did in the anime. So to use the manga scan as corroborating evidence to argue timeline erasure in the same instance as Zeno did in the anime strikes me as odd.
More importantly, at what point do we see the Time Ring destroyed in the anime? Is it right after the Zeno EE or later?
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Alright. Can people stop arguing about whether or not the timeline was erased? This is a completely irrelevant point that has nothing to do with the CRT. If you take issue with it, go downgrade Zeno.
CelestialVortex01
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Killerdrone123
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I used manga scans to explain the time travel context in Goku black arc which is not conventional time travel as we think off
Manga just provide better explanations to same stuff
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Anyone?
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I'm not the one who raised that argument in the first place. So Chariot and Viet should be the people to respond to it.
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Dude, not how this works, you have to prove it was destroyed, i don't have to prove it wasn't.
Accepted, and now being contested.
Any and all facets of a feat are liable to be discussed and even re-examined if they are relevant and pertain to the discussion at hand within a CRT, you can look that one up yourself in the guidelines.
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It started out chill with Qawsed's initial proposal, but then it got chaotic with back and forth arguments left and right. Also, the "Creating/Destroying infinite sized objects within a finite amount of time would still divide to infinite" mainly applies to creating, destroying, or devouring cosmologies. It doesn't really apply to self size expansion feats as Zamasu doesn't become Low 1-C until he is Low 1-C sized. I'm still fine with him eventually reaching that tier, but I do not think anyone other than Zeno and Super Shenron via wishes would upscale to that end point. The 2-C end of course is the part that Beerus was unimpressed by and can be used for everyone upscaling from.
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I don't think you can argue something that is not relevant to the upgrade and is accepted by the wiki.
You can always make another thread for it I believe.
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