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Hello, this CRT will aim to upgrade Infinite Zamasu to Low 1-C. Before we start, I want to make something clear, these are new arguments going over all the statements and narrative behind why we believe these ratings to be true, so I recommended going into this with an open mind before just dismissing this if it seems absurd to you. With that in mind, please read the entire thread before commenting any potential arguments you may have against it, with sufficient evidence. This will be extremely controversial so no derailing would be appreciated.
To get things started, Infinite Zamasu was stated to have become the universe/macrocosm itself. Becoming abstract ideas itself, taken in the form of himself. When he was done merging with the universe, he transcended the hypertimeline entirely. Not through some special means like a time ring, or a time machine; but an omnipresent god, through pure existence. We currently have it listed as just range, but that's wrong for many reasons. Characters in Dragon Ball display range with power many times for tier 2 ratings. For example, Goku has 2-C range because his attacks, along with Beerus were capable of absolutely obliterating an entire macrocosm with shockwaves alone, and then later went on to do it with an omni directional blast. Zeno has Low 1-C range via his timeline erasing feats, which he scales to in every sense of the word, no exceptions. The point is that these characters range feats usually coincide with power, or else it would just be interdimensional, so just keep that in mind. Now as for Zamasu, not only did he transcend the timeline entirely, but he managed to get to another hypertimeline itself. This also includes traversing and in some way interacting with the higher dimensional space between timelines, which we actually do see on rare occasions. It should be recognized that it is actually not required for Zamasu to have fully merged with either timelines for a couple of reasons. First one would be that his actual energy was already affecting the entire present timeline, which is stated by Beerus, and visibly made Whis uneasy. This isn't some lingering insignificant ki, it's messing with time itself on a serious scale. I should also note that 'past' and 'present' are used to refer to the entire timeline as a whole; very important since it's presented this way almost every time. This is very important because it's a Tier 1 structure. Only tier 1 characters would be capable of having an actual notable/worrisome affect on the entire structure. Due to how complex hypertimelines are, this would scale. It doesn't stop there. Not only was Zamasu affecting a hypertimeline with just his passive energy, he was affecting two as well.
The reason for this is because of Whis and Beerus statement. The fact that Zamasu with a lesser abstract influence (only a portion of his abstraction vs the entire universe, likely more) on the present hypertimeline, that means his actual energy in the future timeline would be affecting it to a far greater degree by default. Since something happened in the future (infinite Zamasu) its affects also reached the present. So Zamasu essentially is affecting two hypertimelines at the exact same time with just his latent energy. And seeing as how he fused with the entire universe in the future. There is absolutely no reason to not assume that he would have also started spreading further in the present, until he was stopped that is. Regardless, this shows Zamasu's range, and passive energy output. And overtime feats do not matter for tier 1 and tier 2, as it's basically affecting infinity (Uncountably infinite 4D structures or Uncountably infinite 3D structures). So regardless of the verdict of whether or not he fused with the timeline entirely, Infinite Zamasu would still be granted a Low 1-C rating since it does indeed fit within the standards. Not to mention worrying an Angel who can also affect a timeline himself, let alone Beerus who is also the strongest god of destruction. It should also be noted that Zamasu interacting, transcending, and breaking into another hypertimeline itself is just more proof and consistency for the proposed rating. A hypertimeline is above infinitely more complex and greater than a standard tier 2 spacetime continuum. Going beyond it and breaking into another one at all should honestly be enough. It's already shown he has those tier 1 levels of powers just by pulling that off with raw power alone. You have to remember that Infinite Zamasu had no Time Ring, no portal powers, just pure power and existence leaving a mark on a higher dimensional timeline and corrupting it while fusing with it. Now, there is an argument that Zamasu could have also fused with the entire future timeline before going to the present timeline as well. Because first off, not only would it not make sense to go to another timeline after fusing with the first one, but it's also not something that can technically be disproven either, especially with the evidence provided; that he is indeed capable of messing with hypertimelines on a large scale with passive energy output. Both interpretations have merit (sort of), but one is clearly backed up by more evidence than the other. Which is why I'll go over the arguments against it, and provide evidence in favor of the argument.
The next argument is basically an extension of the first one. "Why didn't Zeno know about Infinite Zamasu if he fused with the timeline". Well to get this out of the way first. The Grand Priest and Zeno are never usually outside of the palace. Zeno's Palace isn't just a normal building. It's actually a very large pocket dimension of unknown size. You could tell because it's much bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. There is a room that seemingly goes on forever, and even then The Grand Priest has to teleport them to Zeno's actual palace... inside the palace. It's clearly very distinct from the actual Zeno Realms. So Infinite Zamasu could have fused with it no problem without them knowing or being present... if The Grand Priest was still around that is (lol). Both of them aren't required to know what's going on for this reason, and frankly really have no reason to be paying attention anyway. Zeno has been shown to watch over the multiverse for signs of improvement in Mortal Level, so him not knowing about any of the events in the Future Timeline is a big issue. All the more reason for this point not to be taken too seriously, because we simply do not know. Which sort of makes it conjecture yes, but doesn't really add anything to the argument against the claim. In short, it just adds nothing for or against the argument in all honesty, it's not something that matters or should be questioned too seriously without giving yourself an aneurysm. Because we can apply that same logic to a lot of scenarios in that arc. But there could be a couple reasons to why that is the case, at the same time, it could also not be the case based on the lack of evidence. So in times like these, there must be a compromise, which I'll get to shortly.
On to a little more narrative outlook on things, from the very beginning, Zamasu's goals involved becoming the sole God of Existence due to his anger at the other gods for their failures with mortal kind's existence. This would suggest that Zamasu always planned to deal with Zeno and override his dominion of the world, of which Zeno can erase with a single gesture. When Trunks slices Zamasu apart his very will and thoughts became one with existence, the same will and thoughts that desired to override the ruling order and be the one God. With it even being stated he was trying to become 'justice and order'. We have reason to believe Zamasu was succeeding at this goal as Zeno, who is depicted later as having deeper plans for the universes and disinterest in erasing everything needlessly so long as virtuous warriors existed, resorted to erasing not only Universe 7, not only the Multiverse but the entirety of the timeline to get rid of Zamasu. This also strengthens the narrative and our claims even further. Zamasu wanting to be the sole God is still his will, and then you notice that Infinite Zamasu started to try and take over everything before his defeat; his literal thoughts. So either way you look at it, the feat would still be overtime at the absolute minimum, which still scales.
I will grant that in the manga, Zeno does erase the timeline when an event like Infinite Zamasu does not occur. However Anime Zeno and Manga Zeno are two very different characters in their motives with the Tournament of Power and their ways of handling mortal affairs. Along with that Manga Zeno did have justification for it. Manga Zamasu had access to a time machine, infinite cloning, The Time Rings and Kai Kai. He had many options to escape to another world. In short, Manga Zeno's characterization should not reflect Anime Zeno's actions and Manga Zeno's own actions had their own context to justify his level of force. Along with that we see Zamasu appear in a world parallel to Trunks' world. It is there that Whis states that he can feel an unpleasant energy leaking into the world, stated to be a result of events in Trunks' world leaking over into Goku's world. Given that it makes no sense for Zamasu to travel to other worlds before infecting his own that does create the impression that he had already successfully merged with his timeline and was aiming to gradually merge with other timelines. Something he would have knowledge of due to his familiarity with Time Rings, timeline-hopping and the involvement of mortals from another world interfering with his plans. In summary, Zamasu's very goal was to become the one God. When he merged with the world it was his very will and thoughts that did so and he was shown spreading to entire other worlds, suggesting he had already successfully infected his own. Zeno had no in-character justification for erasing Trunks' world unless Zamasu had already infected the entire timeline. Narratively speaking it does suggest that Zamasu merged with the timeline rather than merely Universe 7.
Now, considering all the narrative statements/consistency, arguments and their counters, now is for the actual proposal. I do believe this should grant infinite Zamasu a Low 1-C rating. However, this should only be a possibly rating, not a solid, or even a likely. The reason for this, is the fact that some points rely on conjecture. Not just from the positive side, but also from the opposing side, or at least arguments that have been been brought up in the past, or arguments that will be brought up. Now, while yes this is true, there are also statements, implications, and even lore heavy nuance that does warrant a Low 1-C rating. What I'm saying, is that both interpretations do have merit. But this does not mean the blatant statements should be ignored outright. And quite frankly, there would be more evidence for the rating than against it. Just as we'd have to provide evidence to counter those arguments against our claims, the opposition would have to do the same for ours. Which is why a possibly rating would be a middle ground. It's not saying that it is 100% the case, but very strong evidence can be provided for it to be very plausible. And to be frank, one of the biggest arguments that was used was shown to be completely untrue by the actual show and the evidence we provided. Regardless, we are still going for something more conservative. That is what the possibly rating is for anyways. So from this, Infinite Zamasu would receive a 'Possibly Low 1-C' rating. Scaling will be discussed in another thread entirely. It's possible it can be discussed here if things go smoothly, but I doubt that.
Edit: Its been decided that "2-C, up to Low 1-C" is appropriate.
Edit 2: After a long discussion @Qawsedf234 presented 3 options
Agree: Qawsedf234 (He is fine with three scenarios)
Neutral:
Disagree: Dalesean027
The OP was edit by Vietthai96 due to new option presented by Qawsedf234 and new vote tally
To get things started, Infinite Zamasu was stated to have become the universe/macrocosm itself. Becoming abstract ideas itself, taken in the form of himself. When he was done merging with the universe, he transcended the hypertimeline entirely. Not through some special means like a time ring, or a time machine; but an omnipresent god, through pure existence. We currently have it listed as just range, but that's wrong for many reasons. Characters in Dragon Ball display range with power many times for tier 2 ratings. For example, Goku has 2-C range because his attacks, along with Beerus were capable of absolutely obliterating an entire macrocosm with shockwaves alone, and then later went on to do it with an omni directional blast. Zeno has Low 1-C range via his timeline erasing feats, which he scales to in every sense of the word, no exceptions. The point is that these characters range feats usually coincide with power, or else it would just be interdimensional, so just keep that in mind. Now as for Zamasu, not only did he transcend the timeline entirely, but he managed to get to another hypertimeline itself. This also includes traversing and in some way interacting with the higher dimensional space between timelines, which we actually do see on rare occasions. It should be recognized that it is actually not required for Zamasu to have fully merged with either timelines for a couple of reasons. First one would be that his actual energy was already affecting the entire present timeline, which is stated by Beerus, and visibly made Whis uneasy. This isn't some lingering insignificant ki, it's messing with time itself on a serious scale. I should also note that 'past' and 'present' are used to refer to the entire timeline as a whole; very important since it's presented this way almost every time. This is very important because it's a Tier 1 structure. Only tier 1 characters would be capable of having an actual notable/worrisome affect on the entire structure. Due to how complex hypertimelines are, this would scale. It doesn't stop there. Not only was Zamasu affecting a hypertimeline with just his passive energy, he was affecting two as well.
The reason for this is because of Whis and Beerus statement. The fact that Zamasu with a lesser abstract influence (only a portion of his abstraction vs the entire universe, likely more) on the present hypertimeline, that means his actual energy in the future timeline would be affecting it to a far greater degree by default. Since something happened in the future (infinite Zamasu) its affects also reached the present. So Zamasu essentially is affecting two hypertimelines at the exact same time with just his latent energy. And seeing as how he fused with the entire universe in the future. There is absolutely no reason to not assume that he would have also started spreading further in the present, until he was stopped that is. Regardless, this shows Zamasu's range, and passive energy output. And overtime feats do not matter for tier 1 and tier 2, as it's basically affecting infinity (Uncountably infinite 4D structures or Uncountably infinite 3D structures). So regardless of the verdict of whether or not he fused with the timeline entirely, Infinite Zamasu would still be granted a Low 1-C rating since it does indeed fit within the standards. Not to mention worrying an Angel who can also affect a timeline himself, let alone Beerus who is also the strongest god of destruction. It should also be noted that Zamasu interacting, transcending, and breaking into another hypertimeline itself is just more proof and consistency for the proposed rating. A hypertimeline is above infinitely more complex and greater than a standard tier 2 spacetime continuum. Going beyond it and breaking into another one at all should honestly be enough. It's already shown he has those tier 1 levels of powers just by pulling that off with raw power alone. You have to remember that Infinite Zamasu had no Time Ring, no portal powers, just pure power and existence leaving a mark on a higher dimensional timeline and corrupting it while fusing with it. Now, there is an argument that Zamasu could have also fused with the entire future timeline before going to the present timeline as well. Because first off, not only would it not make sense to go to another timeline after fusing with the first one, but it's also not something that can technically be disproven either, especially with the evidence provided; that he is indeed capable of messing with hypertimelines on a large scale with passive energy output. Both interpretations have merit (sort of), but one is clearly backed up by more evidence than the other. Which is why I'll go over the arguments against it, and provide evidence in favor of the argument.
- I'm also going to hammer in this a little more, just so you can see just how consistent this actually is. Yes the statements do say that Infinite Zamasu was trying to/has merged with the universe sure. But let me ask you something, why would this imply a limit? Where does this imply that this is the maximum range Zamasu can extend? Normally you'd be correct to take this statement at face value and be skeptical about anything higher; but that's only if all the mountains of evidence didn't exist. But what If I told you that coming to this conclusion is not objectively, but factually incorrect? Well you'd probably say that's absurd. Well let me explain why it's not. We all know that Zamasu was able to transcend the future timeline and go to the present timeline right? There you go. That right there proves that Zamasu fusing with a universe is absolutely not his limit, and never should have been considered to be, especially when used as an argument against the initial premise. Now despite all the arguments for Zamasu fusing with the timeline regardless, you have to realize that that claim of being his "limit" is already untrue. What does Infinite Zamasu do? He spreads his influence, his being, his very essence passively across spacetime. He corrupts. We have to also acknowledge that Zamasu would of also had to breach the inbetween space of these timelines, something we have seen before briefly. This is already FAR greater than the range of a simple macrocosm. The space holding these hypertimelines and separating them would be of a higher dimensionality than the timeline itself. Due to not knowing the distance between these hypertimelines, or just spacetimes in general, we assume it could be infinite, or even greater. The fact that Zamasu left, fused, and traversed a construct infinitely more complex than just a standard hypertimeline already tells you all you need to know about the validity of the argument. It's straight up wrong. He isn't, or ever has been limited to a single spacetime. He can influence constructs far greater than that. Scaling him to the hypertimeline with the information I've provided should be much much more believable. Most have that contention that we didn't see it or the statements, when in reality, we witnessed something far more impressive. Like I said, he's simultaneously corrupting two hypertimelines and all the contents in between with raw power and essence. So please keep this in mind as you proceed with further arguments. And mind you, since we know what Infinite Zamasu's ability and nature is, why would we assume he would have just stopped instead of spreading? I mean come on, he's seen as an Immediate threat and actually worries a being who can affect time, these high level beings including Zeno himself, and just the overall narrative. What would Zamasu have just not spread anymore? Just stayed as a face? Why? What true reason do we have to believe that that was the limit of his influence when we are blatantly told it's not? He was stopped by the omnipotent God of the verse. Just ignoring all of the implications for an at least overtime feat is nonsensical. There is one more point that is absolutely necessary to get across to understand the nuance of the argument. It's that Whis and Beerus have absolutely zero context of what is actually happening. They don't know that Zamasu turned into this astral state and started taking over everything. Hell, they don't even know that Zamasu is like actually in the present right now. All they know is that something that happened in the future. Whis feels the uneasy energy making his skin tingle, and Beerus deduces that whatever happened, it's literally having a tangible effect on time itself. The present. The timeline. That is a very important detail because it shows that Beerus just knows this amount of energy is enough to start effecting the entire timeline, or that he senses something is happening to time itself. So much so, that it was enough for Beerus and Whis to go there immediately, likely to see if Goku and Vegeta were there to ask them what was actually going on, or to get context if something was happening in the future to where the influence was crossing over to their reality. Either way, this paints to the mere energy from Zamasu as extremely dangerous, and time altering. This is not treated as some localized threat in any respect whatsoever.
The next argument is basically an extension of the first one. "Why didn't Zeno know about Infinite Zamasu if he fused with the timeline". Well to get this out of the way first. The Grand Priest and Zeno are never usually outside of the palace. Zeno's Palace isn't just a normal building. It's actually a very large pocket dimension of unknown size. You could tell because it's much bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. There is a room that seemingly goes on forever, and even then The Grand Priest has to teleport them to Zeno's actual palace... inside the palace. It's clearly very distinct from the actual Zeno Realms. So Infinite Zamasu could have fused with it no problem without them knowing or being present... if The Grand Priest was still around that is (lol). Both of them aren't required to know what's going on for this reason, and frankly really have no reason to be paying attention anyway. Zeno has been shown to watch over the multiverse for signs of improvement in Mortal Level, so him not knowing about any of the events in the Future Timeline is a big issue. All the more reason for this point not to be taken too seriously, because we simply do not know. Which sort of makes it conjecture yes, but doesn't really add anything to the argument against the claim. In short, it just adds nothing for or against the argument in all honesty, it's not something that matters or should be questioned too seriously without giving yourself an aneurysm. Because we can apply that same logic to a lot of scenarios in that arc. But there could be a couple reasons to why that is the case, at the same time, it could also not be the case based on the lack of evidence. So in times like these, there must be a compromise, which I'll get to shortly.
On to a little more narrative outlook on things, from the very beginning, Zamasu's goals involved becoming the sole God of Existence due to his anger at the other gods for their failures with mortal kind's existence. This would suggest that Zamasu always planned to deal with Zeno and override his dominion of the world, of which Zeno can erase with a single gesture. When Trunks slices Zamasu apart his very will and thoughts became one with existence, the same will and thoughts that desired to override the ruling order and be the one God. With it even being stated he was trying to become 'justice and order'. We have reason to believe Zamasu was succeeding at this goal as Zeno, who is depicted later as having deeper plans for the universes and disinterest in erasing everything needlessly so long as virtuous warriors existed, resorted to erasing not only Universe 7, not only the Multiverse but the entirety of the timeline to get rid of Zamasu. This also strengthens the narrative and our claims even further. Zamasu wanting to be the sole God is still his will, and then you notice that Infinite Zamasu started to try and take over everything before his defeat; his literal thoughts. So either way you look at it, the feat would still be overtime at the absolute minimum, which still scales.
I will grant that in the manga, Zeno does erase the timeline when an event like Infinite Zamasu does not occur. However Anime Zeno and Manga Zeno are two very different characters in their motives with the Tournament of Power and their ways of handling mortal affairs. Along with that Manga Zeno did have justification for it. Manga Zamasu had access to a time machine, infinite cloning, The Time Rings and Kai Kai. He had many options to escape to another world. In short, Manga Zeno's characterization should not reflect Anime Zeno's actions and Manga Zeno's own actions had their own context to justify his level of force. Along with that we see Zamasu appear in a world parallel to Trunks' world. It is there that Whis states that he can feel an unpleasant energy leaking into the world, stated to be a result of events in Trunks' world leaking over into Goku's world. Given that it makes no sense for Zamasu to travel to other worlds before infecting his own that does create the impression that he had already successfully merged with his timeline and was aiming to gradually merge with other timelines. Something he would have knowledge of due to his familiarity with Time Rings, timeline-hopping and the involvement of mortals from another world interfering with his plans. In summary, Zamasu's very goal was to become the one God. When he merged with the world it was his very will and thoughts that did so and he was shown spreading to entire other worlds, suggesting he had already successfully infected his own. Zeno had no in-character justification for erasing Trunks' world unless Zamasu had already infected the entire timeline. Narratively speaking it does suggest that Zamasu merged with the timeline rather than merely Universe 7.
Now, considering all the narrative statements/consistency, arguments and their counters, now is for the actual proposal. I do believe this should grant infinite Zamasu a Low 1-C rating. However, this should only be a possibly rating, not a solid, or even a likely. The reason for this, is the fact that some points rely on conjecture. Not just from the positive side, but also from the opposing side, or at least arguments that have been been brought up in the past, or arguments that will be brought up. Now, while yes this is true, there are also statements, implications, and even lore heavy nuance that does warrant a Low 1-C rating. What I'm saying, is that both interpretations do have merit. But this does not mean the blatant statements should be ignored outright. And quite frankly, there would be more evidence for the rating than against it. Just as we'd have to provide evidence to counter those arguments against our claims, the opposition would have to do the same for ours. Which is why a possibly rating would be a middle ground. It's not saying that it is 100% the case, but very strong evidence can be provided for it to be very plausible. And to be frank, one of the biggest arguments that was used was shown to be completely untrue by the actual show and the evidence we provided. Regardless, we are still going for something more conservative. That is what the possibly rating is for anyways. So from this, Infinite Zamasu would receive a 'Possibly Low 1-C' rating. Scaling will be discussed in another thread entirely. It's possible it can be discussed here if things go smoothly, but I doubt that.
Edit: Its been decided that "2-C, up to Low 1-C" is appropriate.
Edit 2: After a long discussion @Qawsedf234 presented 3 options
Agree: Qawsedf234 (He is fine with three scenarios)
- Scenario 1: DarkDragonMedeus Damage3245 (Leaning toward option 1) Maverick_Zero_X
- Scenario 2: Vietthai96 LordGriffin1000
- Scenario 3: LordGriffin1000
Neutral:
Disagree: Dalesean027
The OP was edit by Vietthai96 due to new option presented by Qawsedf234 and new vote tally
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