Infinite Zamasu: A dreadful upgrade

[Chariot190]

It ain't the 5D upgrade thats a problem, it's the fact Krillin is consistently scaling to these high tiers and that's what people don't like

That's more of a writing problem then a problem for this CRT

i dont like the amount of guesswork going into this, id prefer if we just used the funny light bullshit, at least that has actual statements and no real billion contradictions ad extrapolations

 

[Vietthai96]

Path 1 - Probably closer to our standards - We upscale from Zamasu:

• IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" or "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
• Future anime that scale above Zamasu's max output (like Jiren, SSB Gogeta, etc): "Low 1-C" or "2-C, likely Low 1-C"
  • Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast

I go with path 1

 

[Qawsedf234]

That would grant durability but Zamasu at no point uses that in any meaningful way for AP or offensive output, and in fact, actively contradicts that notion himself.

It can't just be durability since Dragon Ball has a UES. If you can channel energy into one stat, you can do it for all stats.

Except they can actually use that to attack or have feat, no?

Some of them like Spawn can, but the Wild and Fudo for example are just the embodiment of the cosmology afaik.

IZ while merged, 1 second before showing the fact he "breached over", (and has in fact been longer as the squad is already mid-reaction when it shows them, and there isn't a time cut either, because the end of that scene is Goku and lads getting out of the dirt, it's all real time), fires off very blatantly not HDE ki attacks, weaker than MZ's, blocked by characters weaker than MZ, and yet we're supposed to say his ki attacks got infinity times stronger?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Zamasu, over the course of his existence, was merging more and more with the timeline. He did not start at Low 1-C for all the contradictions mentioned, but he would eventually fuse with all of reality.

So why is it we're saying IZ's ki attacks got infinity times stronger, when his actual feats show he's probably actually weaker, and then saying the breach is an aspect of power, when the context suggests it isn't and an even stronger version of him could not replicate such a thing, as opposed to something to do with the extreme circumstances of what's happening to begin with or even his new physiology?

The most I see from this argument is saying that Zamasu was destroyed before he achieved Low 1-C power, which is fine, but eventually he would get Low 1-C strength after merging with the timeline.

Do we though?

Yes. Do you have an example where we rate a character who merged with existence as being weaker than the total scale of that existence?

we only give fusing with things a tier if they can utilize it in a meaningful way.

Which Zamasu can because of how Ki works in DB. It's just a UES so all things scale to each other.

I simply do not see how it's possible to say his power increased proportionally to the fusing, for arguments sake, even if that was the default standard (it isn't it's case by case), the actual showings would actively contradict that notion and would take precedence. When coupled with the overly vague nature of several other facets, all we really have is a decent range feat for him, and I suppose durability. Now if people want to argue Jiren or whoever is confirmed to be able to kill them so they scale that's one thing, but IZ has no merit to scale in AP simply because he has HDE, dude's an extreme fringe case.

The most I would really back down on is that Zamasu never achieved Low 1-C and was stopped to early by Zeno. In which Jiren and other characters were stronger than however powerful Zamasu was at the time, but if/when Zamasu completely fuses with reality he would be Low 1-C in our system to the best of my knowledge.

 

[TiltedFN]

It is, because they'd literally be infinitely weaker than Zamasu.

I mean sure, but in the context of the verses powerscaling. Why can't it just be P.I.S like we argue for other things if it's seen as a big deal? It's not like they actually scale to Zamasu in any meaningful way like I mentioned. They got overpowered both times. Who says Goku would actually be able to do anything at full power? Unless you want to argue that MZ is Low 1-C, which you had personal problems with.

 

[Qawsedf234]

. Why can't it just be P.I.S like we argue for other things?

I mean, why can't it be PIS that Jiren is stronger than Zamasu when he doesn't have the feats to support being Low 1-C? It's a non-argument in my mind. It's just an anti-feat, it doesn't dismiss the scaling automatically, it just makes the argument weaker than it was before.

 

[StekFence]

I

But if Zamasu is getting a rating via being a structure, then his dura isn’t gained from having sufficient ki. It comes from sheer size. So it would not scale. In fact, I would argue his ki prob isn’t significantly changed.

 

[Damage3245]

It ain't the 5D upgrade thats a problem, it's the fact Krillin is consistently scaling to these high tiers and that's what people don't like

That's more of a writing problem then a problem for this CRT

Well, there's that but there's also the fact that we sorta roll with scaling even when there's no explanation other than "I guess that's just how it works." Like, here we're saying "Zamasu got infinitely stronger because he fused with the hypertimeline and that transcends him to X level of power".... but no one else in Dragon Ball is fusing with hypertimelines to achieve such a huge boost in power. They don't have multiverses as their physical forms. We're just effectively saying "Eh, UES, 'strongest foe yet', Ki = all stats, etc. all add up to therefore this list of characters scale to this level too despite nothing directly proving that."

 

[StekFence]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Zamasu, over the course of his existence, was merging more and more with the timeline. He did not start at Low 1-C for all the contradictions mentioned, but he would eventually fuse with all of reality.
The most I see from this argument is saying that Zamasu was destroyed before he achieved

Also, the argument is that Zamasu is low 1-C, with him reaching the present as proof of this. So Zamasu under this framework already should have reached that point. So since you can presumably agree that this Zamasu doesn’t seem to be Low 1-C, shouldn’t he just not be this tier?

 

[TiltedFN]

I mean, why can't it be PIS that Jiren is stronger than Zamasu when he doesn't have the feats to support being Low 1-C? It's a non-argument in my mind. It's just an anti-feat, it doesn't dismiss the scaling automatically, it just makes the argument weaker than it was before.

I mean sure, but Jiren has a lot evidence proving he indeed is the mightiest foe they've gone up against bar none. I see what you're saying though. But Goku and Vegeta really didn't have any feats against IZ or any showings to suggest that they would of been able to do anything to him regardless if they were full power or not. But yeah. I feel like you could say that to a lot of characters that don't show 2-C feats yet upscale from characters.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Some of them like Spawn can, but the Wild and Fudo for example are just the embodiment of the cosmology afaik.

The Wild just by expanding was breaching or breaking the construct which itself is 2-A so that's not an entirely good example.

 

[TheTenno07]

Well, there's that but there's also the fact that we sorta roll with scaling even when there's no explanation other than "I guess that's just how it works." Like, here we're saying "Zamasu got infinitely stronger because he fused with the hypertimeline and that transcends him to X level of power".... but no one else in Dragon Ball is fusing with hypertimelines to achieve such a huge boost in power. They don't have multiverses as their physical forms. We're just effectively saying "Eh, UES, 'strongest foe yet', Ki = all stats, etc. all add up to therefore this list of characters scale to this level too despite nothing directly proving that."

What's the point of having an UES if it can't be used for scaling?

 

[Qawsedf234]

But if Zamasu is getting a rating via being a structure, then his dura isn’t gained from having sufficient ki. It comes from sheer size. So it would not scale. In fact, I would argue his ki prob isn’t significantly changed.

From what I see from the accepted Ki Manipulation page, we treat Ki as existing in everything, including non-living objects

Genki (元げん気き?, lit. "Vigor") is the energy/life force that is projected in ki. Genki is present in the grass and trees, people and animals, inanimate objects, the atmosphere and celestial bodies

So becoming one with the multiverse means gaining access to the Genki that exists throughout all of existence.

Also, the argument is that Zamasu is low 1-C, with him reaching the present as proof of this.

I didn't agree with that as being Low 1-C evidence, just interdimensional range. So that isn't Low 1-C proof to me.

The Wild just by expanding was breaching or breaking the construct which itself is 2-A so that's not an entirely good example.

That's the 2-A key, which does have some AP to it. The Low 2-C key is just her being the universe.

 

[StekFence]

But he clearly hasn’t gotten much stronger, I don’t see how that’s congruent.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But he clearly hasn’t gotten much stronger, I don’t see how that’s congruent.

If the argument is that Zamasu didn't get access to the multiverse yet so he shouldn't be Low 1-C, I can see it. Chariot's point about the lack of evidence and Zeno being a destructive toddler holds up. But if Zamasu fuses with the multiverse, we would rate him as that multiverse level to my knowledge.

 

[StekFence]

Ah I see where you’re coming from now. Mb. I suppose it does simply boil down to the standards then. If fusing with x structure gives you its tier then yeah you just are that tier. I suppose there could be a crt but that feels like a shitshow waiting to happen.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ah I see where you’re coming from now. Mb. I suppose it does simply boil down to the standards then. If fusing with x structure gives you its tier then yeah you just are that tier. I suppose there could be a crt but that feels like a shitshow waiting to happen.

Well, DB got the Durability Negation page revised, so it can go two for two I guess

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Be DB
Change the wiki by just existing

And people say One Piece matters

 

[StekFence]

Speaking of, IZ also got the Ls standards changed I believe, since he’s not shown able to lift anything of his own size. I think that logic would prob hold here? I do feel if a guy fuses with a Structure then ap is a bit iffy to scale to it, since that’s more an active thing that should require some feats. I suppose that’s not entirely a legit argument atm

 

[Qawsedf234]

While jokes are funny, stay on topic or wait for Chariot/another mod to comment again. A major factor in DB threads getting derailed is people memeing things or making jokes that torpedo all positive efforts, everyone loses interest, and then the thread dies after like three weeks of inactivity.

 

[Chariot190]

It can't just be durability since Dragon Ball has a UES. If you can channel energy into one stat, you can do it for all stats.

Ki is a UES. But this isn't strictly ki.
He's only that high, at least in my argument there, because he fused with something that is just that innately tough. Characters still have a natural durability outside of said energy even in DB, so no, that isn't how this works here.

Some of them like Spawn can, but the Wild and Fudo for example are just the embodiment of the cosmology afaik.

Well, two wrongs don't make a right? If they need to be looked at, they need to be looked at too?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Zamasu, over the course of his existence, was merging more and more with the timeline. He did not start at Low 1-C for all the contradictions mentioned, but he would eventually fuse with all of reality.

I know you're not saying that, I'm saying that. I'm pointing out an extremely massive inconsistency and contradiction of the notion that simply because he fused with a thing, his AP got higher.
He already fused with the future timeline by the time he was throwing those attacks out, and had already breached into the past.
If we're saying he reached that level eventually, even if he didn't start off as it, he most certainly was it by the time everything I just outlined occured based on the very arguments claiming he must've reached that level at all.

If the baseline for when he merged was "breached into the past", then everyone could deflect attacks, tank attacks, his ki wasn't shown any stronger nor changed by his current state from when he was corporal, was shown weaker than MZ's even, and we also know MZ couldn't use direct power to go into the past so it implicates a more hax based approach, especially coupled with the other lines. But that's beside the point, what matters is his ki output didn't change in a meaningful way.

To ignore this is just ignoring a blatant contradiction.
It doesn't add up, in fact what we do see is the exact opposite of what's being suggested.
Doesn't help that Goku thought he could box him anyway right after he already did the low 1-C merge after already eating one of his attacks while fused based on the arguments so... Definitely isn't implicating his ki output increased by infinity times.

The most I see from this argument is saying that Zamasu was destroyed before he achieved Low 1-C power,

Then why is the argument for him breaching into the past, well, an argument?
If that's being taken as evidence, that happened long before and simultaneously as he was attacking the boys?

If we say that's proof of fusing with the hypertimeline, it also acts as proof his ki output, energy, and more stayed the same while he merged, both can co-exist, media can do whatever it wants, and that's how it'd be portrayed here.

which is fine, but eventually he would get Low 1-C strength after merging with the timeline.

What? That just means it never happened so why would he get AP for it or anyone would scale...

Yes. Do you have an example where we don't rate a character who merged with existence as being weaker than the total scale of that existence?

Maybe? Not really something I actively look into, I haven't exactly been sitting here making a note each time, and honestly shouldn't matter given we should strive to index things properly, not because of case by case precedence, but I can definitely think of a handful of abstract that are literal facets of reality or a higher dimensional concept that can't be killed, exist everywhere, and more because of it, and like, just don't have AP for it because they show lower AP and don't have a means to attack with it. Hell even simply being HDE isn't proof of scaling according to a few staff I asked because there's a 10D jojo mf there needs to be evidence they can use that to attack or whatever.
Thinking on it, back in the day we also didn't rate Giygas beyond 3-B because that's the only output he shown and more too.

Which Zamasu can because of how Ki works in DB. It's just a UES so all things scale to each other.

Frieza's base durability is a billion times higher than Goku.
Goku with ki scales to Frieza because ki can effect stats, this is also why they can even lower their statistics if need be.
But each character has their own innate stats based on physiology still.

Zamasu's durability here, has nothing to do with the UES DBZ has, but rather, due to his extremely unique physiology, something he obtained not due to power but that extreme circumstances of, well tbh whatever you want to call becoming an abstract idea is.
He isn't that durable due to the UES, he's that durable simply because he is that thing now. But, as we've seen, his actual ki output, didn't change. This isn't even alien in DBZ, some things in DBZ can be extremely durable without having ki, would you say a robot made of katchin has 4-A AP because it has 4-A durability? I would presume not, the durability doesn't actually effect the AP or other stats in this situation.

If you're arguing his ki got a infinity times higher because he merged with the timeline, why is it shown to be the exact same as it was before, weaker even? Why are we not taking the actual source material as evidence here over case by case standards?

The most I would really back down on is that Zamasu never achieved Low 1-C and was stopped to early by Zeno. In which Jiren and other characters were stronger than however powerful Zamasu was at the time, but if/when Zamasu completely fuses with reality he would be Low 1-C in our system to the best of my knowledge.

I mean that's one thing, maybe he didn't, that's a very real possibility too.
That would at least explain a handful of issues away. But for hypothetical's sake, based on the current arguments, the suggestion works on the framework that he did fuse with it (hence why people upscale like Jiren for being stronger than the "Low 1-C IZ"), and part of the evidence is the whole he went into the past bit, so to do that he "must" have fused with the hypertimeline yeah?
But if THAT'S when we're saying he became Low 1-C, then the whole argument falls apart because we know for a fact his AP, that is, his ki attacks, absolutely did not grow stronger at that time, it's legit one of the few pieces of evidence and hard proof we have in this whole situation, to ignore it just wouldn't make sense right?

 

[Qawsedf234]

He's only that high, at least in my argument there, because he fused with something that is just that innately tough. Characters still have a natural durability outside of said energy even in DB, so no, that isn't how this works here.

From what I'm seeing, we officially accept Ki as composing various aspects of the universe like planets, stars, and other items. So by fusing with the multiverse, he would also gain access to the ki that composes the multiverse.

Well, two wrongs don't make a right? If they need to be looked at, they need to be looked at too?

To my knowledge its just not wrong. We've always treated universal or cosmological fusions as being AP equivalent. I can't think of an exception to this.

To ignore this is just ignoring a blatant contradiction.
It doesn't add up, in fact what we do see is the exact opposite of what's being suggested.
Doesn't help that Goku thought he could box him anyway right after he already did the low 1-C merge after already eating one of his attacks while fused based on the arguments so... Definitely isn't implicating his ki output increased by infinity times.

To me, this isn't a contradiction; this is just increasing the time span of his merger. So instead of getting Low 1-C on screen, he was just stopped before that happened.

Then why is the argument for him breaching into the past, well, an argument?

Idk. But I disagreed with it being evidence here:

• Zamasu breaching into the main timeline is in the interdimensional range as mentioned, for the same reason SSB Gogeta and Broly have interdimensional range. On its own, it is not a Low 1-C feat but it is evidence of greater power.

The most I take it is that he's gotten stronger, but it's not a Low 1-C feat just a range feat.

What? That just means it never happened so why would he get AP for it or anyone would scale...

I mean, sure. As I noted before Goku and Vegeta's showings are a massive anti-feat. As you noted as well Zeno will knee jerk erase existence because he gets salty. Zamasu being killed before he reached Low 1-C is valid, and no one would scale to it in that case.

Maybe? Not really something I actively look into, I haven't exactly been sitting here making a note each time, and honestly shouldn't matter given we should strive to index things properly, not because of case by case precedence, but I can definitely think of a handful of abstract that are literal facets of reality or a higher dimensional concept that can't be killed, exist everywhere, and more because of it, and like, just don't have AP for it because they show lower AP and don't have a means to attack with it. Hell even simply being HDE isn't proof of scaling according to a few staff I asked because there's a 10D jojo mf there needs to be evidence they can use that to attack or whatever.
Thinking on it, back in the day we also didn't rate Giygas beyond 3-B because that's the only output he shown and more too.

Afaik, we usually rate someone embodying existence as that level of existence. I could be wrong, but unlike with HDE where its a finite volume at higher dimensional levels, being one with the universe is treated as being able to access the full scope of that cosmology's power. I just can't really think of exceptions to it, to my knowledge, any character that merges with a universe, multiverse or higher realm gets rated as that higher realm's tier.

If you're arguing his ki got a infinity times higher because he merged with the timeline, why is it shown to be the exact same as it was before, weaker even? Why are we not taking the actual source material as evidence here over case by case standards?

I mean it is a good point. Either they were always Low 1-C (which is nonsensical imo) or Zamasu didn't finish fusing with all of Trunk's Timeline before it got erased.

But if THAT'S when we're saying he became Low 1-C, then the whole argument falls apart because we know for a fact his AP, that is, his ki attacks, absolutely did not grow stronger at that time, it's legit one of the few pieces of evidence and hard proof we have in this whole situation, to ignore it just wouldn't make sense right?

Like I said, in my mind, whenever he finishes fusing with Trunk's TL he would be Low 1-C. It would just happen after Goku & friends survived his attack. If he's expanding rapidly, that means his state of existence and power are also expanding rapidly. He would still be 2-C after all until he merged with both temporal axes.

 

[Chariot190]

From what I'm seeing, we officially accept Ki as composing various aspects of the universe like planets, stars, and other items. So by fusing with the multiverse, he would also gain access to the ki that composes the multiverse.

Yep. But we also know that Zamasu's ki didn't change, we also know that his output didn't change, he isn't exactly Moro or Cell, fusing with something doesn't inherently mean he gets access to it, ESPECIALLY because we are told flatout, that his ki is still his ki, as in, nobody sensed a change with Zamasu's ki, this is particularly odd when even the slightest influx or addition of something else's ki can make it seem different.
That's even a plot point in this very saga so it's not like the studio forgot it's a thing, Goku Black and Zamasu's ki weren't identical, similar sure, but the subtle changes and additions altered it and they made note of it, we also see that with Moro, Cell, and Buu.
This implicates Zamasu isn't exactly taking that ki for himself, at least, on screen yet (Also does that even apply to the timeline? Like it applies to planets and stuff, but the timeline?).

To my knowledge its just not wrong. We've always treated universal or cosmological fusions as being AP equivalent. I can't think of an exception to this.

Do we really got a make a thread on that man... I got stuff to do...
I will if need be, might be best t figure out a solid standard in future for a few profiles of my own actually, but but can't we just actually use the actual evidence here.

To me, this isn't a contradiction; this is just increasing the time span of his merger. So instead of getting Low 1-C on screen, he was just stopped before that happened.

No like, my dude, the argument is the breach was done because he was Low 1-C.
That's part of the crux of the argument here, maybe not you specifically but that's a major baseline.
If you're saying he wasn't low 1-C when he breached, thus, the attacks he used weren't low 1-C either so no wacky contradictions and wacky circular scaling, that means we have no idea if he ever became low 1-C to begin with right?

Idk. But I disagreed with it being evidence here:

Then... How do we know he fused with the hyper timeline to become Low 1-C?
That's the only real thing to suggest he did?

If that isn't the case, and you're saying it took longer (and thus the ki slop isn't a contradiction to that notion), then how do we know when he fully merged?
If we don't know we can't say when he did or even if he managed to completely.

The most I take it is that he's gotten stronger, but it's not a Low 1-C feat just a range feat.

That's still a bit of an issue no? Why is Goku and friends tanking attacks when MZ would have straight killed them?

I mean, sure. As I noted before Goku and Vegeta's showings are a massive anti-feat. As you noted as well Zeno will knee jerk erase existence because he gets salty. Zamasu being killed before he reached Low 1-C is valid, and no one would scale to it in that case.

Maybe?

Afaik, we usually rate someone embodying existence as that level of existence. I could be wrong, but unlike with HDE where its a finite volume at higher dimensional levels, being one with the universe is treated as being able to access the full scope of that cosmology's power. I just can't really think of exceptions to it, to my knowledge, any character that merges with a universe, multiverse or higher realm gets rated as that higher realm's tier.

Idk I'll look into it ig but I know for a fact we absolutely don't do it just for the sake of it. Besides we should be trying to index things properly with the material in question, a blanket standard isn't always for the best.

I mean it is a good point. Either they were always Low 1-C (which is nonsensical imo) or Zamasu didn't finish fusing with all of Trunk's Timeline before it got erased.

So... What's the verdict chief?

Like I said, in my mind, whenever he finishes fusing with Trunk's TL he would be Low 1-C. It would just happen after Goku & friends survived his attack. If he's expanding rapidly, that means his state of existence and power are also expanding rapidly. He would still be 2-C after all until he merged with both temporal axes.

So how do we know when that occurred then? You're saying him breaching into the past is simply range, which I actually agree with, there's a lot of caveats to that scene as it is. And because he hadn't merged at that point, the whole funny ki fiasco isn't actually a contradiction, ok, maybe, but then what? How do we know when he completely merged? That was the only real "benchmark" we had, outside of that there's no info given for progress, and if that isn't being taken to mean he merged fully so he was low 1-C, then what is? It's just as likely that Zeno popped him because he's a lil baby toddler who went nuclear because "that's annoying" - actual quote.

If we aren't going the breach route, we need to figure out and get proof of when he completed the merge, otherwise imo, eventually low 1-C is the best that can happen, and nobody, not even himself really, is scaling off something that never actually happened, just would if given enough time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

fusing with something doesn't inherently mean he gets access to it

In Dragon Ball, when has fusion ever not given you access to something? The most I can think about would be botched Fusion Dance examples, which wouldn't apply to Zamasu merging with space-time.

I will if need be, might be best t figure out a solid standard in future for a few profiles of my own actually, but but can't we just actually use the actual evidence here.

I mean you can argue that he doesn't fully merge with the timeline and that's fine, but the current standard is that if he completed the merger then he scales to the cosmology.

If you're saying he wasn't low 1-C when he breached, thus, the attacks he used weren't low 1-C either so no wacky contradictions and wacky circular scaling, that means we have no idea if he ever became low 1-C to begin with right?

My original backing to Low 1-C was that he was fusing with the timeline, got vaguely stronger and Zeno felt like he needed to delete everything to stop it. But all of those are seemingly questionable to some degree, so him completing the multiversal fusion is also questionable.

Idk I'll look into it ig but I know for a fact we absolutely don't do it just for the sake of it

It's not for the sake of it, since it's treated as notably affecting the structure and being able to control the structure as your body. Which is why it's always scaled afaik.

So... What's the verdict chief?

If we aren't going the breach route, we need to figure out and get proof of when he completed the merge, otherwise imo, eventually low 1-C is the best that can happen, and nobody, not even himself really, is scaling off something that never actually happened, just would if given enough time.

Well, if Zamasu can't be proven as fully merging with the multiverse then the only change for Dragon Ball is that IZ gets "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" and no one scales to the Low 1-C end.

 

[Robo432343]

One of the fodder characters was able to deflect Infinite Zamasu's attack

 

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

Fully aware that this may cause more chaos here, but in regards to Infinite Zamasu’s beams being blocked and survived by people far weaker than a 5th dimensional hypertimeline…

Ki in Dragon Ball is highly dependent on the mind. This is stated and shown multiple times, with Akira Toriyama even stating that a key part of Ki is Shoki (正気), or “right-mindedness”/sanity.

Infinite Zamasu is mindless. He is just screaming and laughing, firing beams at everything and then not doing anything else afterwards. Despite the heroes being fine, he doesn’t fire again and just laughs even though he has them dead to rights. The mouth beams he fires should not be treated like his full power. (This is also why I don’t think Krillin and Goten/Trunks/Fat Gotenks should scale to this off of fighting a Cell Max actively developing a functioning mind, but this thread’s got enough tangents going on).

 

[Hasty12345]

One of the fodder characters was able to deflect Infinite Zamasu's attack

Low 1-C barrier, what's wrong with that?

 

[Chariot190]

In Dragon Ball, when has fusion ever not given you access to something?

Here apparently, or the the wrong fusions thinking on it.
It has nothing to do with getting something, he is getting stuff, HDE, a bunch of hax, the goals to be one with the world, the ki though? Why?
We can't just assume he's getting it especially with evidence on the contrary.

The most I can think about would be botched Fusion Dance examples, which wouldn't apply to Zamasu merging with space-time.

That's kind of what I mean, you just acknowledged that in DBZ there is multiple types of "fusing", and not always do you gain actual benefits, it depends on the type of fusion in question and how it happens.

So why does Zamasu's work in this way? His fusing is very much unique to his own, it wouldn't inherently have the same rules, benefits, or even detriments as others, we would have to judge it on its own merits.
Not getting into the fact I'm pretty sure the timeline doesn't even have ki, iirc the highest thing we got is suns do. Time itself is a bit of an extra step, like we know space itself or voids don't inherently have ki either, it isn't everything full-stop.

I mean you can argue that he doesn't fully merge with the timeline and that's fine, but the current standard is that if he completed the merger then he scales to the cosmology.

But there is no current standard, it's very much case by case. Sometimes we do it, but sometimes is not everytime tho. There's no rule anywhere either that I can find, which, is why, maybe we do need a thread on that topic to actually make standards so people aren't just doing their own thing. Ill idk, I'll ask around ig.

My original backing to Low 1-C was that he was fusing with the timeline, got vaguely stronger and Zeno felt like he needed to delete everything to stop it. But all of those are seemingly questionable to some degree, so him completing the multiversal fusion is also questionable.

That is true, don't really enjoy rating things off a bunch of maybes tbh.

It's not for the sake of it, since it's treated as notably affecting the structure and being able to control the structure as your body. Which is why it's always scaled afaik.

But... He can't do that? He legit ong can't DO anything with the structure in an offensive way, he can't punch, he can't kick, he can't even move his body, when it comes to ki absorption I don't even think the timeline has ki for him to take anyway. And when his only known method is ki attacks, is that not a problem?

Well, if Zamasu can't be proven as fully merging with the multiverse then the only change for Dragon Ball is that IZ gets "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" and no one scales to the Low 1-C end.

Maybe, but all the same, I do think we should at least figure out the whole standards on this, maybe in a diff thread tho.

Low 1-C barrier, what's wrong with that?

The fact that character is very much not Low 1-C, has numerous anti-feats, caps, and scales below characters that actively show limits and caps below the aforementioned tier and based on the daizenshuu, to block an attack you would at least ki of some degree of comparability to the ki attack in question. Now maybe he threw ALL his ki into it, but even all his ki combined shouldn't equate even an infinitesimal percentage.

 

[TiltedFN]

But... He can't do that? He legit ong can't DO anything with the structure in an offensive way, he can't punch, he can't kick, he can't even move his body, when it comes to ki absorption I don't even think the timeline has ki for him to take anyway. And when his only known method is ki attacks, is that not a problem?

The point is that he IS the structure. It became his very being after merging himself with it. How do you punch or kick in a state like that?
He IS the structure, hence it's under his "control". It's still treated as affecting the structure. I mean he's literally interacting with the literal space and time of reality, it's fabric. And seeing as how Ki still embodies Zamasu's being, it's no different in this case.

 

[StekFence]

The point is that he IS the structure. It became his very being after merging himself with it. How do you punch or kick in a state like that?

I guess like eternity in marvel. There’s some characters who are just humanoid even being a cosmological structure

 

[TiltedFN]

I guess like eternity in marvel. There’s some characters who are just humanoid even being a cosmological structure

But like, that isn't a requirement as Qaw pointed out. How many characters even do that? And like lol, Marvel characters are a whole different ball game when it comes to those things and their mechanics. Can't eternity be human sized as well? Or just like not the size of the universe? I'm looking at a panel of him comparable in size to doctor strange right now. Very weird comparison considering the difference between them and with their "M-Bodies". But regardless, becoming the structure via merging your essence and ki with it is still effecting its fabric lol. You are that thing now.

 

[Chariot190]

The point is that he IS the structure. It became his very being after merging himself with it. How do you punch or kick in a state like that?

That's a very good question. How IS he going to use it to attack? You should probably figure that out first.

He IS the structure, hence it's under his "control".

What control? How is he using it offensively? How can he channel that power into a manner of offense? How can he anything actually. Dude legit doesn't do anything.
It's most certainly isn't ki, we flatout see his ki didn't get stronger, weaker even, and bro above just brought up a very good point in that one of the basic tenants of ki, and the ability to channel it properly, wasn't actually utilized properly by IZ so that's another caveat that needs to be taken into account.

It's still treated as affecting the structure.

Fusing with it, and actually affecting it, are very much not the same thing.
Like the past especially, quite literally nothing changed, nothing was effected, noting was shown to change, all we got is a portal which, apparently, we aren't treating as anything but range nor proof of AP, and then the lads sensing him coming in through the portal and... That's it actually you already conceded they didn't have context, knew what exactly was going on, and they never do elaborate and what it entails anyway. Which cycles back into that whole "conjecture" argument we've been having.

I mean he's literally interacting with the literal space and time of reality, it's fabric.

Note the keyword on the page is in a meaningful way, I would argue hat he's not actually effecting it at all, he's simply fusing with it.

And seeing as how Ki still embodies Zamasu's being, it's no different in this case.

We are not cycling back into the hax argument, or well actually we are give you're not 180'ing back into things already argued extensively.

Like are we really gonna do this again? Nothing there is new, you know my thoughts on that, why force me to repeat myself? Bring new information to the table, the argument wasn't convincing me before why would you think it'd change now?

And that isn't even true, if Zamasu is embodied by just ki, we need to remove his abstract slop because he isn't actually that, he's ki apparently. And ki isn't abstract.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I guess like eternity in marvel. There’s some characters who are just humanoid even being a cosmological structure

Quick correction, Abstract Entities like Eternity are purely abstract and have no physical attributes, their humanoid forms are manifestations of other people’s conceptualizations of their existence (hence they appear differently depending on who perceives them and often appear as sound waves or weather patterns), hence battling them is tantamount to battling one’s own thoughts.

 

[StekFence]

Fair nuff, I suppose like in Dokkan Battle, TEQ LR Merged Zamasu when using his Domain, becomes IZ, and has an avatar which is just a Zamasu shaped green gas thing that physically fights when he isn’t using a Super attack or Ultra Super attack.

 

[Chariot190]

Also to add on, Whis flat out says even getting on Zeno's nerves slightly is enough to get him to destroy all of existence
they also say that destroying all of reality is a feat that basically only he can do and it's why he's the strongest and why everyone is scared of him so, ya know...

 

[TiltedFN]

That's a very good question. How IS he going to use it to attack? You should probably figure that out first.

Not really, since it has no bearing on anything. He doesn't need to use his body to attack. All that matters, is that he is the construct now.

What control? How is he using it offensively? How can he channel that power into a manner of offense? How can he anything actually. Dude legit doesn't do anything.
It's most certainly isn't ki, we flatout see his ki didn't get stronger, weaker even, and bro above just brought up a very good point in that one of the basic tenants of ki, and the ability to channel it properly, wasn't actually utilized properly by IZ so that's another caveat that needs to be taken into account.

Same point as before. Also, that point actually helps the skepticism about the scaling. Its simple, if people are arguing that IZ being mindless couldn't project his power correctly, that just means it isn't an anti feat for Goku and Vegeta to block it (even though they got overwhelmed anyway) or whoever's barrier that was to block it. Those become less of anti feats if you think they are if you come at it from this angel, so by all means. Take that into account as well. But his overall AP would still be Low 1-C so it doesn't even matter for later scaling since he gets overtaken anyways.

Fusing with it, and actually affecting it, are very much not the same thing.
Like the past especially, quite literally nothing changed, nothing was effected, noting was shown to change, all we got is a portal which, apparently, we aren't treating as anything but range nor proof of AP, and then the lads sensing him coming in through the portal and... That's it actually you already conceded they didn't have context, knew what exactly was going on, and they never do elaborate and what it entails anyway. Which cycles back into that whole "conjecture" argument we've been having.

I mean they kind of are. If you are interacting with spacetime, and fusing your very essence into it when it wasn't there before, that is a form of affecting spacetime and turning it into something different. And again on the Beerus statement, them not having context is good since it literally just means it's more supported that this energy is effecting the present timeline itself.

 

[TiltedFN]

Also to add on, Whis flat out says even getting on Zeno's nerves slightly is enough to get him to destroy all of existence
they also say that destroying all of reality is a feat that basically only he can do and it's why he's the strongest and why everyone is scared of him so, ya know...

I mean we've seen Zeno's guards actually get on his nerves to the point where he threatened them multiple times and he did nothing but warn them, so it's clearly something hyperbolic here; at the very least overexaggerated to get the point across.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Same point as before. Also, that point actually helps the skepticism about the scaling. Its simple, if people are arguing that IZ being mindless couldn't project his power correctly, that just means it isn't an anti feat for Goku and Vegeta to block it (even though they got overwhelmed anyway) or whoever's barrier that was to block it.

It was Gowasu and Shin's barrier btw

 

[Chariot190]

Not really, since it has no bearing on anything. He doesn't need to use his body to attack. All that matters, is that he is the construct now.

You know you need to actually have attack potency to have attack potency right? Otherwise it's ED, or maybe not even a stat.

Same point as before. Also, that point actually helps the skepticism about the scaling. Its simple, if people are arguing that IZ being mindless couldn't project his power correctly, that just means it isn't an anti feat for Goku and Vegeta to block it (even though they got overwhelmed anyway) or whoever's barrier that was to block it.

It also means why in the hell would we EVER assume Zamasu is capable of even using that alleged power?
You need to actually be able to make use of it get that rating, and no, this I can straight up confirm is a precedence we have and wiki standards, we don't give TOTK Zelda 2-C AP for having the Full Triforce literally fused into her body because she has no idea how to draw upon its full power or make use of it, so yeah sure she has this ludicrously infinite higher D power source literally apart of her spirit and she's able to suckle upon it in some sort of way, but she's simply 5-A atm and it basically just acts as a cool battery.

Need to prove they can channel or make use of whatever energy source they got working with lad.

Those become less of anti feats if you think they are if you come at it from this angel, so by all means. Take that into account as well. But his overall AP would still be Low 1-C so it doesn't even matter for later scaling since he gets overtaken anyways.

See above.
And if that's the case, why would they ever be comparing the later characters to the ki pool, instead of what he could actually do?

I mean they kind of are. If you are interacting with spacetime, and fusing your very essence into it when it wasn't there before, that is a form of affecting spacetime and turning it into something different.

Except you aren't turning it into anything, you're just fusing with it. And again, smurf hax do be a thing.
We seem to have very different interpretations on what affect actually entails, especially "in a meaningful way",

And again on the Beerus statement, them not having context is good since it literally just means it's more supported that this energy is effecting the present timeline itself.

Nope. That is objectively false, Beerus outright never mentions energy, only Whis does, ad of course he does, he can sense it through the portal that opened up not even 1 second ago. He says and I quote, "Something happened in the future, it's affecting the present".
What does this entail? How is it affecting the present? It obviously isn't doing much, we know he didn't fuse with the present, because if he did, Zeno would have needed to bust that too to kill him, which, he didn't.
Nothing was shown to have changed. Nothing is shown different after the fact, so "meaningful way" gets thrown out the way if we can't even tell what happened.
Then there's the context of the scene itself, all Beerus knows, is that he can sense Zamasu somehow, and then he isn't dead or sealed in the future so something must have happened.
And mind you, this is after a portal already opened into the past, which is why he can sense him to begin with.

So what do we actually know?
Beerus deduces it's Zamasu and something happened in the future. Beerus doesn't know how or why, a fact you conceded on, a fact that causes him to go to earth even on the fly to learn more, in your own words.
And that it's affecting the present (Note they don't say timeline or time itself, this could easily be speaking generally).
And that is legit it. He doesn't say what you say he is. His knowledge doesn't encompass what you claim it would. They don't elaborate. They don't say anything worth any merit. This is, Grade A extrapolation as with most of the arguments here.
Beerus doesn't know a damn thing, all we know for sure is he can sense Zamasu, which makes sense given a giant portal just opened up so of course they could sense him, you might have had a point if they sensed him before the portal opened and said that, but the flow of events doesn't support your stance.

I mean we've seen Zeno's guards actually get on his nerves to the point where he threatened them multiple times and he did nothing but warn them, so it's clearly something hyperbolic here; at the very least overexaggerated to get the point across.

Unfortunately, the Zamasu example is very much not one of those generous times towards his caretakers.
And no, it isn't that line is in direct response to him being slightly miffed and destroying 6 universes, that like, that literally happened, there's no exaggeration, they're speaking from experience.

 

[TiltedFN]

You know you need to actually have attack potency to have attack potency right? Otherwise it's ED, or maybe not even a stat.

Again, what does using his entire body have to do with anything? You can still have attack potency of a high level without doing what you're describing. It just depends on the potency. Attack with your body while being a construct, and attacking with your own potency (assuming you can use it via SS) are two different things.

It also means why in the hell would we EVER assume Zamasu is capable of even using that alleged power?
You need to actually be able to make use of it get that rating, and no, this I can straight up confirm is a precedence we have and wiki standards, we don't give TOTK Zelda 2-C AP for having the Full Triforce literally fused into her body because she has no idea how to draw upon its full power or make use of it, so yeah sure she has this ludicrously infinite higher D power source literally apart of her spirit and she's able to suckle upon it in some sort of way, but she's simply 5-A atm and it basically just acts as a cool battery.

Need to prove they can channel or make use of whatever energy source they got working with lad.

I mean, for the sake of argument, it would still be Zamasu's overall attack potency rating, but the striking strength would just be worse if you go down this route. Since it relies on Zamasu just not being able to focus all of his energy into an attack, or have his attacks hit as hard as they could.

See above.
And if that's the case, why would they ever be comparing the later characters to the ki pool, instead of what he could actually do?

They would just be comparing later characters to the overall "ki pool". Multiple characters comment on Jirens strength for example, saying it's the strongest energy they have EVER felt. Everybody could sense Zamasu's power, and literally everyone just reaffirms what each other say.

Except you aren't turning it into anything, you're just fusing with it. And again, smurf hax do be a thing.
We seem to have very different interpretations on what affect actually entails, especially "in a meaningful way",

Zamasu fusing with said construct, and said construct becomes him. It's not "just" fusing with it. It's his very being.
And I guess we do. But to me, it seems pretty clear that becoming that thing is still effecting it. Especially on the level of fusing with the fabric of space and time.

Nope. That is objectively false, Beerus outright never mentions energy, only Whis does, ad of course he does, he can sense it through the portal that opened up not even 1 second ago. He says and I quote, "Something happened in the future, it's affecting the present".
What does this entail? How is it affecting the present? It obviously isn't doing much, we know he didn't fuse with the present, because if he did, Zeno would have needed to bust that too to kill him, which, he didn't.
Nothing was shown to have changed. Nothing is shown different after the fact, so "meaningful way" gets thrown out the way if we can't even tell what happened.
Then there's the context of the scene itself, all Beerus knows, is that he can sense Zamasu somehow, and then he isn't dead or sealed in the future so something must have happened.
And mind you, this is after a portal already opened into the past, which is why he can sense him to begin with.

So what do we actually know?
Beerus deduces it's Zamasu and something happened in the future. Beerus doesn't know how or why, a fact you conceded on, a fact that causes him to go to earth even on the fly to learn more, in your own words.
And that it's affecting the present (Note they don't say timeline or time itself, this could easily be speaking generally).
And that is legit it. He doesn't say what you say he is. His knowledge doesn't encompass what you claim it would. They don't elaborate. They don't say anything worth any merit. This is, Grade A extrapolation as with most of the arguments here.
Beerus doesn't know a damn thing, all we know for sure is he can sense Zamasu, which makes sense given a giant portal just opened up so of course they could sense him, you might have had a point if they sensed him before the portal opened and said that, but the flow of events doesn't support your stance.

I mean Beerus knows it's the energy since his statement is an immediate follow up to what Whis said. You keep saying, "Through the portal" when It's literally just Zamasu invading their timeline, that's the entire point.
And It's already known that he was stopped before he could continue effecting the present.
I mean it does have merit since the statement literally lines up to what we literally see on screen before Zamasu shows up in the present timeline. Zamasu starts merging with space and time, breaches the space between timelines (yes I know what Qaw said, but I'm still mentioning it since it's part of the process), Whis notices the energy, Beerus deduces it's Zamasu, and that it is Immediately having an effect on time. I mean it's pretty simple when you look at the concept on what's happening with Zamasu in the first place. I'm using what's told to us to form this conclusion. Stop acting like it's just something that comes from nowhere. That is quite literally not the case whatsoever.
What does sensing Zamasu before he arrived in the PT have to do with anything? They sensed him when he start invading the damn timeline and when he tangibly showed up in the present. Why would they sense him before he started to mess with their timeline? That isn't something that needs to happen just because you say it does.

Unfortunately, the Zamasu example is very much not one of those generous times towards his caretakers.
And no, it isn't that line is in direct response to him being slightly miffed and destroying 6 universes, that like, that literally happened, there's no exaggeration, they're speaking from experience.

We're not even sure if Whis knew the reason Zeno destroyed 6 universes at all. Whis just mentions not to get on his nerves because he can erase shit if he gets pissed at you. They're speaking from experience sure because it already happened. It's just something we don't have a lot of context on to where it can be applied in any meaningful way here. What was the reason? What was Zeno's expression like? Did he do it instantly? Who ticked him off? Was he lenient for any amount of time? Did he have any consideration before doing what he did? It means very little when the only time we see Zeno seem pretty annoyed is when he snaps at his Guards, and maybe a couple times in the tournament of power when people we're cheating. But like, that's his all out tournament (Which he did have a plan for anyway).

 

[eibwen]

Does dragon ball shows UES on abstract stuff? Like applying UES on zamasu here, does that mean time and space itself have ki? Was goku drawing out time&space ki to make his big energy ball? Even if you say mind, idea, thoughts are abstract I do still think it should be case by case