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Baki Gaiden - Retsu Kaioh Isekai|Removing feats, calculations, and manga from the general canon Grappler Baki

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Retsu Kaioh Isekai has always been in limbo because it was unclear whether it was canon for the series or not.
I did some extensive research and ultimately learned that it's completely non-canon, and it's the only gaiden that isn't. Let's take it one step at a time.

What does Itagaki mean to this project?
He's not the author, doesn't write the script, doesn't draw it, and the work itself was released without his permission. The editor-in-chief responsible for the project explicitly states that it's an unofficial, guerrilla effort and will work to ensure Itagaki acknowledges it as his own in the future. Even the author himself, who conceived and wrote the manga, shares this opinion, calling the manga unofficial and claiming Itagaki ignored it. It turns out Itagaki didn't even know what a "parallel world" was or why people go there after death. The editors literally didn't wait for his permission, publishing the manga "strike while the iron is hot" because the public loved the idea. Even the Chinese cover mocks this, highlighting his displeased expression when he realizes the work will be released without any agreements. However, he showed no hostility toward the project, viewing it as a fan product, so the project was not cancelled. The only argument for the manga's canonical status is its appearance at the Baki Festival alongside other Gaiden installments, but this is only because it was published in the same edition as the main series.

Itagaki's influence is limited to the fact that Itagaki's name appears on the covers simply as a reference to the original concept.

All sources:

1)The main manga page on the Japanese Wikipedia, which contains general information on the manga, with sources, so anyone can explore it more personally. Incidentally, Wikipedia also considers this part non-canon, which is clear after reading everything above and below. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/バキ外伝_烈海王は異世界転生しても一向にかまわんッッ

2) The full interview with the editor, in which he admits the product is unofficial and released on a guerilla basis, but hopes to secure approval in the future (we hope and wait). The main scans of the dialogue are attached, but you can always read the interview yourself.

-cwj4pukESM6ebkNOfICIiagfLNuJMzw7n5mYG-wI2wCXcTqd7PfCT2Qt7M_coaMcWolHiWGc0mQJ9Sa0w-pXjLW.jpg
rEbMgPfki99WtweJHLinuBQTc3pCipHdBPUz6G-8LOLUJHiLrwRcwlHnfgWRzYQAOYo9rf-VlurPof3ApePv2XDG.jpg


3) A source that states that the editorial staff released the manga without permission, but this is also stated in the source above.

板垣は連載の許可について特に返答していないものの、編集部は「最終手段。非公認のまま始めます!!」としている。


4) The Chinese cover, depicting Itagaki's sad expression and announcing that the manga has not been approved, also features an abridged version of the editor's interview from point 2 by the same author, who mentions his conflicted feelings about the unofficial nature of the manga but his desire to see the project through to completion.

Also, if the image is difficult to translate, here is the relevant quote. However, this is not a necessary source, as it is a verbatim, albeit less detailed, paraphrase of the same interview. A more detailed version can be found in point 2.

情況下擅自開始!!!

所以要開始了。最終手段。在未許可的卻是「但我還是想看!!!我想要見到烈海王!!」 表情。對於這樣的板垣老師,我的心中想的終,老師露出了似乎絕對不可能說出「好啊」的

/石川真魚

5) A note from the author that the manga is unofficial and Itagaki ignored the product (2nd paragraph) This is the author's commentary on the first volume. Unfortunately, the volume is no longer available for free reading, so those who purchased the paid chapters can find this here.
PJABhzUPZL0s_nljy32XheONlcWcG4B1nYwPXETw9mY9GERqMN2I9_ZCUKU3y8gvJlHX2bN55D4GXTPDLSp3jLvV.jpg
XVxpUVC2RqxgF72I4bdjfsk-Zow9ASYvzKJPFlyNGBQ9hGWHmreTWZk3NzGz0CORuk6USO8v2Js8PRHJ42jjY2mY.jpg

ひこうにんようはなしかんなこころもくさつ非公認とはいえこの様な話を寛大な心で黙殺してくださっているいたせいげんくほらせん板垣先生、原作として協力してくださっている猪原先生、 へんしゅうかんけい しゃ かたがたコミックス編集部や関係者の方々、この単行本を買ってくださった読者のふな皆さんこのページは読まなくていいですがり、そして「一向にかまわんッッ」と言ってくれる(とう)さんに僕は多犬なる感謝をしなければいけません。烈さんの死―――それ自体は悲しむべきこと。疑いようもない。 けれどもここはどうか許されたい。

6) 6) Information from the volume where it's clear and obvious that Itagaki is listed only as the person responsible for the original concept, but is not listed as the author of the work. Authors are labeled accordingly below.
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To summarize: Itagaki isn't the author. He doesn't write the script. He doesn't draw it. He doesn't even contribute anything, ignoring the fundamental concept of isekai. The work "PARTISAN" was released without his consent, and the editor is merely trying to get Itagaki to acknowledge it. There's still no information indicating that the work has been acknowledged.

This leads us to the conclusion that we need to remove everything related to isekai from the universe profile, starting with calculations and references, as it's clear this work has no connection to its canonical franchise, and Itagaki makes no mention of it. What we have here is a fanwork that desperately wants to be official, but essentially remains unofficial and unacknowledged.
 
I'm gonna shoot this entire thread down with a single scan:


Do you see how this is being sold under the brand "Baki"? How it's credited as such, and even has Itagaki's name attached to it? That all means it has to be officially licensed by law, so no matter how little involvement Itagaki had with it, and this is without going into how you're using obviously humorous interviews that contradict information in your own CRT, mind you ("We published it without him having any knowledge of what it actually was" vs " He made the original concept lol"), it could still be put on the wiki.

The idea that we shouldn't even profile it and consider it something akin to fan fiction when it's published and sold the exact same way as the Baki manga, for 15 volumes, no less, baffles me.

Count me as disagreeing.

Edit: Apologies if this came off as aggressive, just kind of annoyed due to a separate thing rn.
 
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I'm gonna shoot this entire thread down with a single scan:


Do you see how this is being sold under the brand "Baki"? How it's credited as such, and even has Itagaki's name attached to it? That all means it has to be officially licensed by law, so no matter how little involvement Itagaki had with it, and this is without going into how you're using obviously humorous interviews that contradict information in your own CRT, mind you ("We published it without him having any knowledge of what it actually was" vs " He made the original concept lol"), it could still be put on the wiki.

The idea that we shouldn't even profile it and consider it something akin to fan fiction when it's published and sold the exact same way as the Baki manga, for 15 volumes, no less, baffles me.

Count me as disagreeing.

Edit: Apologies if this came off as aggressive, just kind of annoyed due to a separate thing rn.
I've dedicated a separate section to this. The fact that it's officially sold is the only argument in favor of it being considered at all. But it's still official fanfic. Ask the top admins and moderators if it's acceptable to include a product in a profile that, by both the author and the editor responsible for the product, considers it non-canonical fanfic, released guerilla-style, without Itagaki's consent. If the site's policies allow it to be considered canon, then I have no problem. But don't pretend I haven't included scans where the author and editor directly refer to the product as non-canonical fanfic that was ignored.
 
I've dedicated a separate section to this. The fact that it's officially sold is the only argument in favor of it being considered at all. But it's still official fanfic. Ask the top admins and moderators if it's acceptable to include a product in a profile that,

We allow things like Jorge Jouster, which is literally a fanfic that was then released as an official product.
by both the author and the editor responsible for the product, considers it non-canonical fanfic, released guerilla-style, without Itagaki's consent. If the site's policies allow it to be considered canon, then I have no problem. But don't pretend I haven't included scans where the author and editor directly refer to the product as non-canonical fanfic that was ignored.
Again, you're using these comedic and humorous interviews that don't make any sense from both a legal and logical standpoint based on official information. They couldn't publish it or sell it without Itagaki's approval, lest they risk a lawsuit, which no company, let alone a Japanese one where business laws are far more strict, would do so. To me, it seems more like this is some bizarre marketing thing or joke meant to promote the series and show how crazy and wacky it is from the main series.
 

We allow things like Jorge Jouster, which is literally a fanfic that was then released as an official product.

Again, you're using these comedic and humorous interviews that don't make any sense from both a legal and logical standpoint based on official information. They couldn't publish it or sell it without Itagaki's approval, lest they risk a lawsuit, which no company, let alone a Japanese one where business laws are far more strict, would do so. To me, it seems more like this is some bizarre marketing thing or joke meant to promote the series and show how crazy and wacky it is from the main series.
"We allow things like Jorge Jouster, which is literally a fanfic that was then released as an official product."

If this product was connected to the original story in a non-unilateral way (the original work directly referenced it), I have no problem with it. But we're talking about a work that references Itagaki's work without receiving any acknowledgement in return.


Again, you're using these comedic and humorous interviews that don't make any sense from both a legal and logical standpoint based on official information. They couldn't publish it or sell it without Itagaki's approval, lest they risk a lawsuit, which no company, let alone a Japanese one where business laws are far more strict, would do so. To me, it seems more like this is some bizarre marketing thing or joke meant to promote the series and show how crazy and wacky it is from the main series.

You say Itagaki approved it, when the editor directly involved with the work himself says he didn't. And then the author directly states the same thing, claiming it's a fanfic that was ignored.

Again: Itagaki doesn't cite the work. He's not the writer. The editor claims it's fanfic that was forcibly released. The author claims it's non-canonical. Sources report it was released without approval.

If the argument "He's not the author. He doesn't cite it. He's not involved in the development. He doesn't know what isekai means. He doesn't acknowledge it. The editors and the author claim it's non-canonical" isn't an argument in favor of non-canonical, then I don't even know what constitutes non-canonical, since it violates every possible point of continuity and canonicity, except for the fact that it's being sold.

I feel like we've reached a dead end.

Call the moderators, let them judge the understanding of the canon.
 
If this product was connected to the original story in a non-unilateral way (the original work directly referenced it), I have no problem with it. But we're talking about a work that references Itagaki's work without receiving any acknowledgement in return.
The original never referenced it in the slightest, it's quite literally fan fiction that was published for being good.
You say Itagaki approved it, when the editor directly involved with the work himself says he didn't. And then the author directly states the same thing, claiming it's a fanfic that was ignored.

Again: Itagaki doesn't cite the work. He's not the writer. The editor claims it's fanfic that was forcibly released. The author claims it's non-canonical. Sources report it was released without approval.

If the argument "He's not the author. He doesn't cite it. He's not involved in the development. He doesn't know what isekai means. He doesn't acknowledge it. The editors and the author claim it's non-canonical" isn't an argument in favor of non-canonical, then I don't even know what constitutes non-canonical, since it violates every possible point of continuity and canonicity, except for the fact that it's being sold.
All of this ultimately doesn't matter (though I've already voice my opinions on taking the interviews seriously). It's an officially licensed, published, and sold product under the Baki brand, by the same company as the OG Baki. Itagaki owns the IP, and for them to do any of the things mentioned previously, they have to have his approval in order for it to not be illegal. No matter what an interview or little blurb on the book says, that's how it is, and that's that.
I feel like we've reached a dead end.

Call the moderators, let them judge the understanding of the canon.
Yeah, that seems to be the case; best to leave it to the mods.
 
I think we can still keep the Isekai on the Baki page but have it in a separate section of calculations for the feats. I also think that we should add profiles of the Isekai characters and only have the Isekai feats scale to the Isekai, not the main series. I also saw that Garouden has a calculation there too but it's technically not canon to Baki too.
 
We've had things like media released officially, by publishers and on official websites, and content that violated copyright by using things without permission from the copyright holders.

The "The Blue and White" verse was removed because of that.

But isn't that a rather strange situation?
Itagaki isn't the author. He doesn't write the script. He doesn't draw it. He doesn't even contribute anything, ignoring the fundamental concept of isekai.
We don't prohibit the indexing of anime games even if they have no connection to the author.

We also allow the indexing of animals that deviate from the original manga even without the author's involvement.

At least I think we do that?

-

I think the issue is that it depends on how much ownership Baki has with the publishers. Because when you publish a manga with a publisher, at least in Japan, you don't exactly have 100% control over it. Like, if your manga gets canceled, you can't go to the publisher or publish independently (at least I think that's how it works).

I think that in order to remove this kind of thing from the wiki there has to be a real "copyright infringement," which doesn't seem to be the case since it was the editors themselves who allowed it to happen?

Another example is Dragon Ball Evolution. Fox obtained the rights for the live-action adaptation of the manga directly from Shueisha (DB publisher)/Toei. Akira Toriyama was basically ignored during production and he hated the movie. But even so, it's an "official" work that we indexed on the wiki.

I think we'd have to see if Baki Publishing retains the rights to the manga.
 
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