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(GRACE) [7-0-0] I AM THE LEGENDARY SUPER SAIYAN SON GOKU - Goku VS Goku - Dragon Ball Super Manga VS Dragon Ball GT

LegendariumOfLies

LegendariumOfLies

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GOKU - DBS MANGA (Granolah the Survivor Arc)
  • AP: 3 Universe
  • LS: >3,002,361.41 Tons

GOKU - DRAGON BALL GT - (Post-Negative Karma Ball)
  • AP: 3 Universes
  • LS: >1.12510471 Trillion Metric Tons
Battle
  • Arena: Planet Vegeta
  • Starting Distance: 20 meters
  • Both are in character
  • SPEED IS EQUALIZED
Music


Votes
ULTRA INSTINCT: @Ednaxel2, @CryoTheMayo, @Shar122, @TiltedFN, @Spinoirr, @Killerdrone123, @MintyBoi1
SUPER SAIYAN 4:
 
Last edited:
"
  • Speed: >282,229,111,000,000,000c Vs
  • Speed: Infinite

SPEED IS NOT EQUALIZED"

What????
 
Huh, interesting.

So there is absolutely nothing on the multipliers for Super Saiyan 4 or the Manga's God Forms huh?
 
Apotheosis69 said:
Huh, interesting.

So there is absolutely nothing on the multipliers for Super Saiyan 4 or the Manga's God Forms huh?
Click to expand...
I think the premise for God being beyond anything else and being better than fusing into Super Vegito or whatever still applies to the manga version? So 160,000x for God should still be usable. And Blue would be 8,000,000x as Super Saiyan x God.

I think 4 had some absurd multiplier accepted but I forget how high it was.
 
GT
According to this blog Post-Karma SS4 Goku is 1.63 Billion times his Episode 29 Base self. Who should be ~5,000x Episode 1-5 Base Goku (superior to his Episode 23 self) who matches EoZ SS3 Goku. Buu goes something like:

SS3 Goku = Kid Buu > (400x) > Base Goku > (100x) > Buuhan = 1x 2-C > Base Goku (1%) > Ultimate Gohan (Buu copy) > Super Buu (50% Buuhan) = 0.5x 2-C

So you can wank Toei SS3 Goku to 40,000x 2-C. Base Goku scales to this at the start of GT
Base GT Goku by Episode 23 is 5,000x that so 200,000,000x 2-C.

So when they say SFPSS4 Goku is 1.63 billion times that it's 200,000,000 x 1.63 billion or 326 Quadrillion times 2-C.

Super
The manga lacks its own scaling chain so I'll have to just provide my own ratings.

SSG = 160,000x (Superior to Potara Fusion at that time, beyond Goku's comprehension. So beyond Super Vegito 3.)
SSB = 8,000,000x

BoG God Goku = 1x 2-C​
RoF SSB Goku = 50x 2-C​

Post-Gravity SS2 Vegeta > SS Black > (50x) > Base Black > FPSS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku > (4x) > SS2 Vegeta meaning Vegeta grew over 200x stronger before fighting Black.

Post-Gravity SSG Vegeta = 200x 2-C​
Post-Zenkai SS1 Black > Post-Gravity SSB Vegeta = 10,000x 2-C​
SSR Black = Post-Training SSB Goku/Vegeta = 10,000 (SS1) x 160,000 (God) = 1,600,000,000x 2-C​

ToP happens. I've got some wanky as hell arguments here but I'll be lax.

SSBE Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan = SS1 Kefla > (50x) > Base Kefla = SS1 Kale ~ SSB Goku ~ Golden Freeza
SSBE Vegeta fights harder than anyone else besides UIS Goku in the ToP according to Jiren. This scales him above Super Saiyan Kefla. Making SSBE and UIS a 50x multipier.

SSBE Vegeta & UIS Goku = 80,000,000,000 times 2-C​

Gotta go out of order here to scale UI. In short, during the Moro Saga Piccolo states that Fusion is useless against him due to copying Spirit Fission. Spirit Fission requires tagging and harming the target. Moro easily counters Vegeta's Spirit Fission by just dodging. So that means Piccolo (and Goku who reacts with shock to his statement) believe Moro-73 would be relative enough to tag Blue Fusion. And VSBW accepts Base Fusions as above the strongest forms of the fusees. So lowballing it would be:

SSB Gogeta > (8,000,000x) > Base Gogeta = Goku/Vegeta Blue > (8,000,000x) > Base Goku/Vegeta​

Ultra Instinct Goku stomps Moro-73 and then matches UI Moro so the LOWBALL would be...8,000,000 x 8,000,000 or...64 trillion times Base.

80 billion * 64 trillion = 5.12 Septillion times 2-C

Soooooooooo GT Goku would be 326 Quadrillion but ToP UI Goku would be 5.12 Septillion. And this is Granolah Saga Goku.

Okay say I ignore the UI > Blue Fusion multiplier argument. Say we treat UI as 50x Blue, same as UIS. The DBS Broly LN calls the clash between SS1 Broly and SS1 Gogeta 'unprecedented power' scaling them above UI Goku and Jiren. So >80 billion times 2-C. SSB Gogeta and FPSS Broly would be 12.8 Quadrillion times at minimum.

Moro-73 scales relative enough to Gogeta Blue for Spirit Fission to work then gains UI and UI Goku matches that. Post-Moro Saga, Goku and Vegeta aren't aware of anyone on their level scaling SSBE Vegeta above FPSS Broly. And all of that is me ignoring the idea that Piccolo and Goku are factoring in a hypothetical Moro Saga Gogeta Blue. Not Broly Saga. EDIT: And just remembered. Goku states Moro-73 is the toughest opponent he's had. Scaling him above Broly.

How do I scale UI Moro from base then? Let's just assume it's only 50x (Even though UIS would be 50 x Blue or 400 million times base and UI is superior...) you would get UI Moro at 640 Quadrillion times.

So even if I pretend UI is equal to UIS in power that would still get Moro-73 to 12,8 Quadrillion times. UI Goku stomps him then matches UI Moro who would be at minimum 640 Quadrillion times.


Summary
GT Goku would be 326 Quadrillion times 2-C in SFPSS4.

DBS Manga Goku would be 5.12 Septillion times 2-C with ToP UI. Even if I severely lowball things (UIS = UI in power, Moro-73 going UI is only 50x base even though UIS is 400 million times base for Goku, etc) I would still get Moro Saga UI Goku to 640 Quadrillion times 2-C. And this is without getting into Granolah Saga scaling.

Suffice to say DBS Manga Goku is going to one shot. Even if we lowball things he would still one shot.
 
I mean... do the characters in later arcs ever get compared to their previous arcs' higher forms...

Example: Granolah Arc Base = Moro Arc SSJ, etc

Cus THAT is what makes or breaks it, to me at least
 
Apotheosis69 said:
I mean... do the characters in later arcs ever get compared to their previous arcs' higher forms...

Example: Granolah Arc Base = Moro Arc SSJ, etc

Cus THAT is what makes or breaks it, to me at least
Click to expand...
Black
FPSS2 Trunks matches SS3 Goku.
Base Black stomps FPSS2 Trunks.
Post-Gravity Training SS1 Vegeta stomps Pre-Zenkai SS Black.
Post-Zenkai SS Black beats SSB Vegeta.
SSB Vegeta then beats up SSR Black after training.

Broly/Moro
SS1 Broly vs SS1 Gogeta is stated to be an 'unprecedented clash of power' scaling them above UI Goku vs Jiren.
Moro-73 is scaled above Broly by Goku.
Post-Moro Goku and Vegeta know no one on their level in the universe. Meaning SSBE Vegeta scales above Broly.

SH
Gamma 1 & 2 are compared to Moro Saga Goku & Vegeta (say either SSB & SSB or SSBE & UIS)
Ultimate Gohan and Gamma 1 are shown to be relative.
SS1 Goten and SS1 Trunks fight alongside Gamma 1 & 2 against Cell Max.
SS1 Vegeta is shown sparring with Post-Training Base Broly.
SH Epilogue SS1 Gohan can fight SS1 Goten and Trunks simultaneously.

There is a lot of other stuff I've omitted even in my scaling chain. Like my ToP wank. Or the way Moro Saga UIS Goku is FTE to Ultimate Gohan. And I haven't even touched anything in the Granolah Saga. For example Base Goku w/ UI technique is shown dodging blasts that Vegeta has to go SS1 to dodge. Or UI SSB Goku fighting Awakened Gas at length when Gas stomped Granolah who previously beat UI Goku and UE Vegeta.

Plenty of direct comparisons, clear form to form scaling, etc.
 
I think the only issue would be trying to counter GT Goku's immortality which is kinda busted. The only way Super could really harm GT would be via his Hakai but that's it, and that's only if we count the possibly EE rating for him, which if we don't GT Goku can just regenerate from. I still can't think of any realistic way GT Goku could win so I'd give it to Super
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I think the only issue would be trying to counter GT Goku's immortality which is kinda busted. The only way Super could really harm GT would be via his Hakai but that's it, and that's only if we count the possibly EE rating for him, which if we don't GT Goku can just regenerate from. I still can't think of any realistic way GT Goku could win so I'd give it to Super
Click to expand...
Counted
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I think the only issue would be trying to counter GT Goku's immortality which is kinda busted. The only way Super could really harm GT would be via his Hakai but that's it, and that's only if we count the possibly EE rating for him, which if we don't GT Goku can just regenerate from. I still can't think of any realistic way GT Goku could win so I'd give it to Super
Click to expand...
I think wincons like knocking them out for one hour or incapacitating them for over a day would let him win regardless of having EE. The power gap should make it simple enough for him to just God Bind him or something for a day.

Anyways, I'll throw in my vote behind Super as well. Way too strong to be harmed, can one shot, has access to Hakai if he really needs it, should be able to incap/KO GT long enough otherwise.
 
It does feel like a stomp, as the only thing GT Goku has is his Immortality and regen, which allows him to last a bit, but Hakai is Hakai. And with such a huge AP disadvantage and little to no hax, there's no way he can win.
 
Funny thing is this would be inconclusive with speed unequalized, because one has AP and the other has infinite speed
Can SSJ4 Goku do anything to win with infinite speed in the first place?
 
Positive Energy stuff like this Wouldn't work to counter hakai with power null?
Click to expand...

i think GTku thanks to his Immortality, can do RE Against some superku Technique or abilities like hakai, god bind and deconstruction hax since Ssj4 work this way.
and if we ignore RE part, Because of his immortality this can help GTku stamina. When he takes repeated hits and severe damage, he can still regenerate and even come back after death, and that too without interruption and endlessly, unlike Superku, who loses ki and cannot recover it during a fight. And seems like according to his profile in stamina section, Have no weakness for stamina and his ki hardly will losed, which we even see in entire show that he has really good control and discharge ki.

But with all of this,
this literally can't help sheer massive gap Ap and speed Between both Fra.
so we can say because of his saiyan physiology he can do AD and zenkai again and again with help of immortality and become relative to him.

but thats doesn't stop Superku AD too, which during future arc his base form jumped to 3 universe to 2-C in at least 1~3 hours,
Which makes it debatable which AD is superior imo

and also his hax like Instinctive action, dura neg and sealing

so, so far they wincon is :

Super Goku
  • Greater AP and SPEED (according a few posts above)
  • More offences hax (mafuba, ultra instinct, dura neg)

GT Goku
  • Immortality
  • Better Stamina
  • Better RE
about their skill fighting, well, i don't have coment about that
 
TheNothing84 said:
Positive Energy stuff like this Wouldn't work to counter hakai with power null?


i think GTku thanks to his Immortality, can do RE Against some superku Technique or abilities like hakai, god bind and deconstruction hax since Ssj4 work this way.
and if we ignore RE part, Because of his immortality this can help GTku stamina. When he takes repeated hits and severe damage, he can still regenerate and even come back after death, and that too without interruption and endlessly, unlike Superku, who loses ki and cannot recover it during a fight. And seems like according to his profile in stamina section, Have no weakness for stamina and his ki hardly will losed, which we even see in entire show that he has really good control and discharge ki.

But with all of this,
this literally can't help sheer massive gap Ap and speed Between both Fra.
so we can say because of his saiyan physiology he can do AD and zenkai again and again with help of immortality and become relative to him.

but thats doesn't stop Superku AD too, which during future arc his base form jumped to 3 universe to 2-C in at least 1~3 hours,
Which makes it debatable which AD is superior imo

and also his hax like Instinctive action, dura neg and sealing

so, so far they wincon is :

Super Goku
  • Greater AP and SPEED (according a few posts above)
  • More offences hax (mafuba, ultra instinct, dura neg)

GT Goku
  • Immortality
  • Better Stamina
  • Better RE
about their skill fighting, well, i don't have coment about that
Click to expand...
If I am not wrong positive energy can only nullify abilities it has shown to nullify which would include all abilities of negative energy but negative energy doesn't have ee so i don't think it would be wise to think it can nullify hakai which is a fundamental ee(history ee)
 
Killerdrone123 said:
If I am not wrong positive energy can only nullify abilities it has shown to nullify which would include all abilities of negative energy but negative energy doesn't have ee so i don't think it would be wise to think it can nullify hakai which is a fundamental ee(history ee)
Click to expand...
oh, i see. nevermind then
 
Also, if it’s Post-Negative Karma Ball, why is Super Full Power SSJ4 considered? It should just be ordinary Full Power SSJ4, since the extra 10x comes from an external Ki amp (Son Family + Trunks Ki). So it should only be the 20.4 x (million) multiplier.

That said, Goku absorbed the Revenge Death Ball Final, so Superku throwing around any Ki Attacks could result in GT gaining massive amounts of strength (and technically God Ki but we’re ignoring that) in the middle of the fight.

Though, as they both specialize in physical combat, it’s unlikely to happen before GTku gets hit by a punch.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I think wincons like knocking them out for one hour or incapacitating them for over a day would let him win regardless of having EE. The power gap should make it simple enough for him to just God Bind him or something for a day.

Anyways, I'll throw in my vote behind Super as well. Way too strong to be harmed, can one shot, has access to Hakai if he really needs it, should be able to incap/KO GT long enough otherwise.
Click to expand...
Shar122 said:
Super Goku FRA
Click to expand...
TiltedFN said:
Super Goku FRA
Click to expand...
Spinoirr said:
Super Goku FRA
Click to expand...
Killerdrone123 said:
Super Goku fra
Click to expand...
Counted
 
Dragonball truly has utterly absurd scaling chains lol,



DBS Goku FRA tho, massively out scales in AP, and still outhaxes, speed equalized makes UI very dangerous as well
 
LegendariumOfLies said:
I could unequalize the speed, but would that even do anything?
Click to expand...
Like Kazuma said it'd just change it to an incon result.

See in theory GT with Infinite Speed and his LS could launch Super into space but Super can just IT back before he dies of oxygen deprivation anyways and this is in-character so GT wouldn't do that anyways and any act of trying to pin him down with LS for long periods would just result in GT dying to a gut punch, point blank ki blast, whatever else.

On the other hand Super has the range and AP to create unavoidable attacks once he realises he can't catch GT. And no matter how fast GT is he won't be able to reasonably escape a macrocosm-wide attack. Aside from maybe hiding in Subspace. Except Super also wouldn't do something like that in-character since it'd mean threatening everyone else in the universe.

The only way you'd argue one way or the other is getting into very tenuous territory regarding GT's AD and I don't personally recognise the merits given how massive the gap is and the fact that GT has no feats of breaching such a massive gap in a single fight like that. He isn't DBS Broly.

With that said I do agree it's currently a stomp and changing it to speed unequalised would just make it an inconclusive result.
 
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