Dragon Ball Heroes & XV: Part 2

[Vietthai96]

Well, it is me again.........idk what to say so just let's get into the main thing shall we

1. More proofs for Time Power's Conceptual Manipulation

CM1 for Time Power was accepted in this thread already. But i want to solidify it further.



Here is the Imgur album with scans and explanations under those scans. TLDR for anyone who is lazy to read

• Time Power was stated to be able to affect things at fundamental level
• Time Power responsible for the existence of all dimensions, with realms like Subspace, which is devoid the concept of time and space, and Room of Time and Spirit which have different concept of time, among those dimensions
• Concepts are fundamental things and Time Power can affect thing at fundamental level
• Thus Time Power can affect and manipulate Concept, which in this case is concept of time and space

More proofs for Type 1

As we know in the verse terminology page, History is part of「Time」, which is fundamental metaphysical aspect of the verse



Now in the new XV stuff, History is stated to transcend the universe and everything, and History is part of Time. This means「Time」and Time Power also transcend the universe and everything


2. Restoration and Resurrection
Anyway Time Power already have restoration, But this ability is also used for another purpose, which is healing



Scans and explanations are in the album, but in short. The restoration ability of Time Power can be used to restore damages and injuries via rewinding time; while technically isn't Healing, its effects can be considered as such, thus can be somewhat considered an unconventional way of healing

Well, next is the potency of this "healing". It is at the level of High-Godly (History, Information Type 2 & Concept Type 1). As this ability is powerful to the point it can restore things that was erased by Time Power itself; TP can erase things at Historical, Informational Type 2 and Conceptual Type 1

This affects the following pages:

• Time Power, of course. And it will have HGR Negation because to this power can nullify its own abilities
• Time Power Unleashed Mechikabura also get affected; while his is actually a regeneration, as he claimed, he will still have possibly/likely HGR due to Time Power Unleashed state, which use Time Power and likely his regeneration can be affected by Time Power

3. Soul Manipulation
First is in DBH multiverse, we have more direct stuff that prove Ki = Soul/Spirit = Energy = Life-Force



Here is the scans

This also mean Time Power also should have Soul Manipulation like Ki, since it is superior to Ki and Time Power's energy contain Ki in it, which allows its users to shot Ki Blasts.

4. Paraconsistent Physiology Type 2

The verse already has Type 1 accepted on some pages. But now we have more

First, from the verse terminology page again, History is many things: causality, fate, space, time, and dimension. It also obviously contains other things in it, like the living people with life and dead people in the Afterlife

Second, again, the newest Xenoverse stuff has「History」is stated to transcend the universe and everything, mean everything is within History and transcended by it

Now we have「Nonexistent History」, which is pretty much the negation of normal history. With history containing and transcending everything, then the nonexistent history is the negation of everything. This form a system that contains all logical duals in the verse: History (Everything) & Nonexistent History (Non/Not-Everything)

So anything that already has Paraconsistent Physiology Type 1 will get Paraconsistent Physiology Type 2, which is the following:

• Time Power will have Type 2 with 4 Truth States due to being both History and Nonexistent History within a singular state, simultaneously both of them and also neither as its predate and independent from both. Scans with reasoning are on the page itself. Time Birds will also have this since Time Power is their soul/spirit, or essence
• Time Power Mechikabura will have Type 2; he has Paraconsistent Physiology Type 1 accepted, and it is on his profile
• Heroes Demon Realm will also have Type 2 since it already have the physiology accepted on the page

Edit: I drop this argument

5. Incorporeality for TPU Mechikabura

Anyway, it is very simple; It is show visually that inside his body is an endless darkness with timelines floating in it


6. Minor removal

Guidebook categorized the Demon Realm as Type: Universe.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Realm_(Dragon_Ball_Heroes)#cite_note-Chozenshuu_4-22"><span>[</span>22<span>]</span></a>

This scan is on the Demon Realm DBH page. The problem is, after I checked it more thoroughly, it turned out the "Type: Universe" doesn't exist, so it's better to remove it. It doesn't affect Demon Realm statistics much since it is a secondary source anyway.

This is everything

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus Oblivion_Of_The_Endless Reiner04

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[Killerdrone123]

Thread looks good I agree

Good job as usual vieth

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

After reading I’m fine with the additions

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Read through everything, and there's nothing I oppose.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Shar122]

Looks fine

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I agree with everything except Type 2 paraconsistent physiology.

Honestly, the whole argument boils down to trying to assert without evidence that the Non-Existent History is a negation of the entire set of concepts that a History represents in the DB verse, but that does not necessarily have to be the case.

There is no evidence in the OP that the Non-Existent History is a plane that logically mirrors the normal history's general ontology. In fact, considering that in the already accepted page about the verse they emphasize that history is a timeline/space-time, the more logical conclusion is that the Non-Existent History is a void that lacks a timeline/space-time. That's it.

There is no barrier separating opposites; this is the equivalent of saying that a full box and an empty box are logical opposites, which they are not using the standards of this wiki.

There is not much more to say. They do not even mention anything that might suggest the idea that in-verse the Non-Existent History is the reflection or the reverse of the normal history, or anything that would place both constructs in a clear conceptual logical relationship.

So well, no.

 

[SonGoku_9377]

Looks good

 

[Robo432343]

Agree with @SonGoku_9377

 

[Vietthai96]

There is no evidence in the OP that the Non-Existent History is a plane that logically mirrors the normal history's general ontology. In fact, considering that in the already accepted page about the verse they emphasize that history is a timeline/space-time, the more logical conclusion is that the Non-Existent History is a void that lacks a timeline/space-time. That's it.

History was accepted to be space-time/timeline, yeah, but that was way before.

As per terminology page

the verse terminology page

The term "History" is much more than simply space-time. It is both physical and metaphysical. If you bend "History", you bend everything

There is no barrier separating opposites; this is the equivalent of saying that a full box and an empty box are logical opposites, which they are not using the standards of this wiki.

Barrier separating opposites?, when do we even need it?. Why weird standard keep popping up each time i make thread about this particular ability?

Also this isn't empty box vs full box, empty box is right only with World of Void which is void of nothingness with nothing in it

"Nonexistent History" is recorded within the Time Scroll, so Nonexistent History and what its have, "exist" in a non-way

Also the Paraconsistent Page disagree with you

For example, a box that is simultaneously empty and contains a doll would be considered to be of the former type, as it only breaks classical logic in regard to one of its properties

There is not much more to say. They do not even mention anything that might suggest the idea that in-verse the Non-Existent History is the reflection or the reverse of the normal history, or anything that would place both constructs in a clear conceptual logical relationship.

1. Like "History", Nonexistent History is another term. And "nonexistence" is pretty much negation/reverse of "existence" by default. The difference here in the verse context, is that "existence" and "nonexistence" are with "History", and "History" in turn encompasses many things, actually everything according to the statement

2. Logic exist in the verse, as per terminology page. "Time" is Law & Logic that dictate how the everything operate and it shape "history". Normal "History" and "Nonexistence History" are both part of "Time" (Logic). So there is implication of logical relationship

So all and all, i can understand your argument, but its core is pretty much adding some weird stricter requirements that not really present on the Paraconsistent Physiology

Also, you even said it is not necessarily have to be logical dual, i can also make a reverse line, it is not necessarily isn't logical duality

Anyway, writing on phone is so bad

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Barrier separating opposites?, when do we even need it?. Why weird standard keep popping up each time i make thread about this particular ability?

Also this isn't empty box vs full box, empty box is right only with World of Void which is void of nothingness with nothing in it

"Nonexistent History" is recorded within the Time Scroll, so Nonexistent History and what its have, "exist" in a non-way

When I refer to “barriers that separate opposites” I am not talking about a literal barrier separating two things or anything strange. I am referring to a contextual framework that establishes that Nonexistent History is the logical negation of History.

Even if we assume you are right and there is evidence that one is the logical negation of the other, the fact that you tell me that Nonexistent History “exists” in some way already contradicts your claim. For it to truly be a logical negation of “everything” (as you yourself define it in the OP), then literally nothing at all should exist. That plane should be an empty void, devoid of any cosmological concept that defines History, which clearly does not seem to be the case even in the scan you shared, unless I am missing context, since despite being “nonexistent” it is still a history.

There are obviously differences between History and Nonexistent History, but claiming that one is the logical negation of the other is a completely different matter, and there is a universe of difference between the two claims.

I'm not saying it is completely unreasonable but you need more evidence.

Also the Paraconsistent Page disagree with you

The page is not in disagreement with me. The example you are providing does not violate classical logic in any way.

2. Logic exist in the verse, as per terminology page. "Time" is Law & Logic that dictate how the everything operate and it shape "history". Normal "History" and "Nonexistence History" are both part of "Time" (Logic). So there is implication of logical relationship

Logic exists in all fictional universes. You do not need some character to come and point out its existence to you. Moreover, the kind of "logic" you mention (simply the functioning of X within a system Y) is not even related to the logic that in this case allows you to obtain this ability (classical logic).

 

[Shar122]

Even if we assume you are right and there is evidence that one is the logical negation of the other, the fact that you tell me that Nonexistent History “exists” in some way already contradicts your claim. For it to truly be a logical negation of “everything” (as you yourself define it in the OP), then literally nothing at all should exist. That plane should be an empty void, devoid of any cosmological concept that defines History, which clearly does not seem to be the case even in the scan you shared, unless I am missing context, since despite being “nonexistent” it is still a history.

I don't really care about paraconsistent physiology type 2 or anything…
You know i can give you the context, non-existent history is actually written in the scroll—a physical manifestation of time power, or of time itself—which supposedly defines, governs, and records all history of various timelines… and everything. Even nothing, since it also governs non-existent history. (The Scroll records states, not just conventional entities, It’s not holding “void-stuff.”
It’s holding the rules that allow the system to acknowledge the void as a state.)
Non existent history is still part of time—not the regular time you usually think of.
I don’t really agree with Viet saying it "exists."
But I think viet is implying that its a state of "nothing" recognized within the cosmology, not really "existing"..
And time itself is encompassing both "something" and "nothing".
It's also called " non-existence" for a reason..
"存在しない" (sonzai shinai) literally means "does not exist" or "non-existent" in English.
History in SDBH... Is just an all catching term that means a lot of things, but it does not just mean space-time I'll say that.
But again, I don't really care about paraconsistent physiology, it's a tasteless and boring term anyways (nonduality is better) but yeah I'll just clarify things and dip.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

You know i can give you the context, non-existent history is actually written in the scroll—a physical manifestation of time power, or of time itself—which supposedly defines, governs, and records all history of various timelines… and everything. Even nothing, since it also governs non-existent history. (The Scroll records states, not just conventional entities, It’s not holding “void-stuff.”
It’s holding the rules that allow the system to acknowledge the void as a state.)

....Ok?

Non existent history is still part of time—not the regular time you usually think of.
I don’t really agree with Viet saying it "exists."
But I think viet is implying that its a state of "nothing" recognized within the cosmology, not really "existing"..
And time itself is encompassing both "something" and "nothing".
It's also called " non-existence" for a reason..

This is not PP type 2. I've never said anything against the fact that time governs over both constructs. That's irrelevant to my critique.

But again, I don't really care about paraconsistent physiology, it's a tasteless and boring term anyways (nonduality is better)

Okay.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

When I refer to “barriers that separate opposites” I am not talking about a literal barrier separating two things or anything strange. I am referring to a contextual framework that establishes that Nonexistent History is the logical negation of History.

Even if we assume you are right and there is evidence that one is the logical negation of the other, the fact that you tell me that Nonexistent History “exists” in some way already contradicts your claim. For it to truly be a logical negation of “everything” (as you yourself define it in the OP), then literally nothing at all should exist. That plane should be an empty void, devoid of any cosmological concept that defines History, which clearly does not seem to be the case even in the scan you shared, unless I am missing context, since despite being “nonexistent” it is still a history.

There are obviously differences between History and Nonexistent History, but claiming that one is the logical negation of the other is a completely different matter, and there is a universe of difference between the two claims.

I'm not saying it is completely unreasonable but you need more evidence.



The page is not in disagreement with me. The example you are providing does not violate classical logic in any way.



Logic exists in all fictional universes. You do not need some character to come and point out its existence to you. Moreover, the kind of "logic" you mention (simply the functioning of X within a system Y) is not even related to the logic that in this case allowed you to obtain this ability (classical logic).

By definition it would be a negation of the thing it’s talking about. It literally means not existing history and history, it’s similar to like existence and not existence, life and not life. The fact that non existent history that it’s qualified as non existent history shows it’s a logical negation of history, and that’s why it’s also NEP.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

By definition it would be a negation of the thing it’s talking about. It literally means not existing history and history, it’s similar to like existence and not existence, life and not life. The fact that non existent history that it’s qualified as non existent history shows it’s a logical negation of history, and that’s why it’s also NEP.

History and Nonexistent History are not a logical duality. A true logical duality would be History and ¬History, which is not the case here because, despite having the status of “nonexistent”, that history is still a history.

Therefore, in this case, since it is not formally a logical duality, you can only rely on the logic in-verse, and within the verse it is never established that both constructs are ontologically opposed, at best you can just argue that one exists and the other doesn't in a conventional sense.

As I wrote above, there is no evidence to assume that every construct that defines a history is by default its logical opposite in the nonexistent history. That is a logically fallacious leap supported by basically nothing.

On top of that, there is also no evidence that time power is independent from both states or that it is ontologically both states at the same time, only that the power encompasses them. And for obvious reasons, the fact that a cosmological construct contains an existent part and a nonexistent part does not make it break classical logic.

There is no mention of transcendence, no mention of disconnection, no mention of anything.

If this is all the evidence then I completely disagree with this and the type 1 should be removed too.

 

[Shar122]

On top of that, there is also no evidence that time power is independent from both states or that it is ontologically both states at the same time, only that the power encompasses them. And for obvious reasons, the fact that a cosmological construct contains an existent part and a nonexistent part does not make it break classical logic.

There is no mention of transcendence, no mention of disconnection, no mention of anything.

If this is all the evidence then I completely disagree with this and the type 1 should be removed too.

Ehh. It's not the only evidence but ok

all of histories, the non-existent history, the world of void etc. came from the very time energy which gives birth to everything, as it even predates everything, as Toki Toki who is called time (made from the very time energy or "time power") is responsible for all dimensions.

Toki Toki = time energy
And Time energy contains and sustains the energy that gives birth to both states of existence and non-existent constructs as well that it predates it.

Time scroll is not any cosmological construct, it's the physical manifestation of time power.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

all of histories, the non-existent history, the world of void etc. came from the very time energy which gives birth to everything, as it even predates everything, as Toki Toki who is called time (made from the very time energy or "time power") is responsible for all dimensions.

Toki Toki = time energy
And Time energy contains and sustains the energy that gives birth to both states of existence and non-existent constructs.

Okay, so what? Since when does creating two cosmological constructs with different qualities automatically and necessarily make you illogical or non dual with respect to the qualities of both constructs?

Anyway, it is irrelevant because both stories are not a logical duality, but your argument would still not work even if we assume that somehow they are.

Read the requirements of the page:

Beings which exist beyond the confines of classical logic in general, in a fashion that they may occupy both the value "true and false" or "neither true nor false" regarding any of their properties. This includes characters existing in a nondual state regarding all logical dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them occupy both or neither state of the dualities in question.

There are no mentions or statements suggesting that Time Power is both “existent” and “nonexistent” at the same time. There are no statements indicating that Time Power is independent of both qualities, disconnected, or that it ontologically transcends both states. There is no real contradiction anywhere.

Time scroll is not any cosmological construct, it's the physical manifestation of time power.

That's even worse for the argument. Anyways, let's wait more staff.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

History and Nonexistent History are not a logical duality. A true logical duality would be History and ¬History, which is not the case here because, despite having the status of “nonexistent”, that history is still a history.

Therefore, in this case, since it is not formally a logical duality, you can only rely on the logic in-verse, and within the verse it is never established that both constructs are ontologically opposed, at best you can just argue that one exists and the other doesn't in a conventional sense.

As I wrote above, there is no evidence to assume that every construct that defines a history is by default its logical opposite in the nonexistent history. That is a logically fallacious leap supported by basically nothing.

It’s not a history, but it’s the negation of it. In the name of the nonexistent history it uses the kanji “しない” which literally denotes a negation, it indicates to us that it is a negation of history, and that’s why we can consider it nothingness.

I don’t see how you can say this isn’t evidence that we can use to say it’s not the logical opposite if that kanji in it denotes a negation.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

History and Nonexistent History are not a logical duality. A true logical duality would be History and ¬History, which is not the case here because, despite having the status of “nonexistent”, that history is still a history.

Therefore, in this case, since it is not formally a logical duality, you can only rely on the logic in-verse, and within the verse it is never established that both constructs are ontologically opposed, at best you can just argue that one exists and the other doesn't in a conventional sense.

As I wrote above, there is no evidence to assume that every construct that defines a history is by default its logical opposite in the nonexistent history. That is a logically fallacious leap supported by basically nothing.

On top of that, there is also no evidence that time power is independent from both states or that it is ontologically both states at the same time, only that the power encompasses them. And for obvious reasons, the fact that a cosmological construct contains an existent part and a nonexistent part does not make it break classical logic.

There is no mention of transcendence, no mention of disconnection, no mention of anything.

If this is all the evidence then I completely disagree with this and the type 1 should be removed too.

This actually does make sense. An extreme example is, a tier 0 would "encompass" P and not-P as they're the grounding behind logic but this wouldn't break classical logic either.

I think you need something like Slay the Princess where logical contradictions/paradoxes are explicitly used or meant, because otherwise this stuff gets pretty damn weak when it comes to the evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa @DontTalkDT @Qawsedf234

I was asked to ping you here, due to that you know about paraconsistent physiology.

 

[Agnaa]

Smells wrong (it just looks like "nonexistent history" is a different spooky/evil realm, rather than a quality (forming a duality in opposition to "ordinary history") which most characters participate in) but there's too many scans for me to feasibly look into.

 

[Vietthai96]

Smells wrong (it just looks like "nonexistent history" is a different spooky/evil realm, rather than a quality (forming a duality in opposition to "ordinary history") which certain characters participate in) but there's too many scans for me to feasibly look into.

You didn't come when i pinged you to another paraconsistent physiology thread

Anyway, since the boss voiced his objection, i will drop the paraconsistent physiology argument

though my PC's RAM is busted so i need to wait for my new PC to do anything

 

[Vietthai96]

it just looks like "nonexistent history" is a different spooky/evil realm

Though this is wrong, it isn't evil realm lol

But anyway, i updated the OP, removed the PP's argument

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Godernet @Imaginym

Well, sorry for the ping, but i need help bruhh

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

Seems fine to me

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Anyway, since the boss voiced his objection, i will drop the paraconsistent physiology argument

Type 1 should be deleted too.

 

[TheTenno07]

Great Work vietta

 

[Shar122]

Bump

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The current OP looks alright.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Bump

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Doesn't this have enough votes to pass?

 

[Vietthai96]

Doesn't this have enough votes to pass?

Need 3 votes, there is only 2 votes

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Need 3 votes, there is only 2 votes

You, DDM and Oblivion

3, no?

Or the thread creator doesn't count anymore?

 

[Vietthai96]

You, DDM and Oblivion

3, no?

Or the thread creator doesn't count anymore?

If i count my vote then it is 3 yes, but for the sake of fairness, i will not count my vote since i'm the verse's supporter

Unless other staff have no problem with me counting my vote

 

[Vietthai96]

Oke

@Reiner04 @Catzlaflame

Your help is appreciated; sorry for the ping

 

[Reiner04]

Proposal looks fine to me.

 

[Vietthai96]

Oke, finally 3 votes, I will apply this thread and close it. Massive thanks to everyone who have participated in this thread

 

[Shadow7001]

Oke, finally 3 votes, I will apply this thread and close it. Massive thanks to everyone who have participated in this thread

You didn't close it

 

[Vietthai96]

You didn't close it

Lol, anyway, closing