Devil May Cry: Intelligence Upgrade and Revisions for the Sparda bloodline (1 STAFF VOTE NEEDED).

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

This intelligence upgrade applies to Sparda, Vergil, Dante, Nero, Gilver and Chen in their own pages (General section):

Extraordinary Genius (The Sparda bloodline are almost perfect beings capable of achieving anything, conquering tasks they had yet to master in a few seconds and mastering any moveset in mere moments of observation. Gilver, who has the combat data of Sparda and his sons, became familiar with a gun in seconds despite not knowing much about firearms and be uncomfortable with them in the first place. Dante has shown to be able to quickly master all the objects, weapons and vehicles he uses).

This is for the Sparda bloodline section in the Demon physiology page (Pre-Awakening):

Accelerated Development (Training, Abilities), Genius Intelligence (Extraordinary Geniuses), and Technique Mimicry (The Sparda bloodline are almost perfect beings capable of achieving anything, conquering tasks they had yet to master in a few seconds and mastering any moveset in mere moments of observation. Gilver, a clone of Vergil, became familiar with a gun in seconds despite not knowing much about firearms and be uncomfortable with them in the first place. Dante can blend art and science in his movesets and has shown to be able to quickly master all the objects, weapons and vehicles he uses).

Agree: @Planck69, @Emirp sumitpo, @KingTempest
Disagree:
Neutral:

---

I also propose removing all skills-related abilities (weapon mastery, martial arts, analytical prediction, superhuman precision, etc) from the Sparda physiology page and only putting them on the individual character page, listing their own feats and statements of skills in the intelligence or powers and abilities section. But for now, this CRT is only about swordsmanship and analytical prediction.

Intelligence (Swordmanship):
Sparda:
- Was widely known as the strongest swordsman in the Demon World and single-handedly defeated Mundus' legions using only a sword. He was the teacher of Baul and Modeus and also taught Dante and Vergil. With Sparda's skills, Chen overwhelmed Dante in single combat.

Pre-DMC2 Dante:
- Inherited Sparda's swordsmanship. Easily defeated the Black Knights, demons made with Sparda and the twin's combat data, and fought Gilver, the most powerful of them. Fought Vergil several times. Easily defeated Baul and Modeus. Held his own against Chen, who had Sparda's skills and precognitive powers.

Post-DMC2 Dante:
- Surpassed Sparda's swordsmanship. Fought Vergil several times again. Defeated Bolverk twice, who was Argosax's most skilled fighter and a rival of Sparda.

Pre-DMC5 Vergil:
- Inherited Sparda's swordsmanship and is a master of Iaijutsu. Fought Dante several times. Easily defeated the Black Knights, demons made with Sparda, Dante and Vergil's combat data.

DMC5 Vergil:
- Fought Post-DMC2 Dante several times and held his own against Nero while weakened.

Nero:
- Credo taught Nero how to fight with a sword.

Gilver:
- Has Sparda, Dante, and Vergil's combat data and fought Dante.

Chen:
- Has Sparda's skills.

Agree: @Planck69, @Emirp sumitpo, @KingTempest
Disagree:
Neutral:

---

For Sparda, Vergil, Dante and Chen in their Powers and Abilities section:

• Analytical Prediction (Gilver, who has the combat data of Sparda and his sons, can detect patterns behind opponent's attack in an instant and read all his moves, enabling him to narrowly avoid every one of them).

For Gilver in his Powers and Abilties section too:

• Analytical Prediction (Can detect patterns behind opponent's attack in an instant and read all his moves, enabling him to narrowly avoid every one of them).

Agree: @Planck69, @Emirp sumitpo, @KingTempest
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

i see

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Nice!

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

While I would agree with EG intelligence, the PoC scans are from different versions of those characters from the multiverse so I don't think those would apply for our versions of them.

Gilver isn't just "vergil's clone" btw, he is a Black Knight and all of them were made with the battle data of Sparda, Dante and Vergil (which is probably why he is identical to Dante/Vergil).

With that in mind, anything Gilver and the rest of the Black Knights do should by default scale to Sparda, Dante and Vergil.


Some other things, the whole DMC4 job was basically a walk in the park for Dante so I don't think it's relevant for his skill section, let alone his fight with Nero as he was playing with Nero the whole time and Deadly Fortune even goes as far as to claim that Dante was practically teaching Nero how to fight during their second battle.

Knowing that its pretty disingenuous to say Nero held his own against Dante when Dante wasn't even taking him seriously to begin with.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

While I would agree with EG intelligence, the PoC scans are from different versions of those characters from the multiverse so I don't think those would apply for our versions of them.

PoC is just an alternate timeline and the scans are consistent with what we see of Dante in the games and Gilver. The cross-scaling is valid imo.

Gilver isn't just "vergil's clone" btw, he is a Black Knight and all of them were made with the battle data of Sparda, Dante and Vergil (which is probably why he is identical to Dante/Vergil).

With that in mind, anything Gilver and the rest of the Black Knights do should by default scale to Sparda, Dante and Vergil.

Gilver is only made up of Vergil's combat data because, unlike Dante and Sparda, he was uncomfortable with guns. Each Black Knight seems to be made from the combat data of a single family member, not all of them (some Black Knights have the skills of Sparda, some have those of Dante, and some have those of Vergil, but they do not have those of Sparda, Dante and Vergil combined).

Some other things, the whole DMC4 job was basically a walk in the park for Dante so I don't think it's relevant for his skill section, let alone his fight with Nero as he was playing with Nero the whole time and Deadly Fortune even goes as far as to claim that Dante was practically teaching Nero how to fight during their second battle.

Knowing that its pretty disingenuous to say Nero held his own against Dante when Dante wasn't even taking him seriously to begin with.

Fair

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

PoC is just an alternate timeline and the scans are consistent with what we see of Dante in the games and Gilver. The cross-scaling is valid imo.

Except they are from other versions of Dante. This would be the equivalent of scaling Dante to PoC Dante feats because its consistent with what we see of Dante.

It isn't valid and shouldn't be used

Gilver is only made up of Vergil's combat data because, unlike Dante and Sparda, he was uncomfortable with guns. Each Black Knight seems to be made from the combat data of a single family member, not all of them (some Black Knights have the skills of Sparda, some have those of Dante, and some have those of Vergil, but they do not have those of Sparda, Dante and Vergil combined).

That's false, the novel explicitly says and I quote "And he created, but previously carefully studied how Dante, Vergil and Sparda fight. And the armor for the new demon was forged by the infernal smith Machiavelli. The created demon, hardened in hellfire and clad in strong armor, received the name "black knights". And they were not afraid of anyone." All of them are made with the whole data of the Sparda family, not individual ones.

And yeah, Gilver is uncomfortable with a gun because 1) As he tells Nell, he doesn't know much about guns if anything at all 2) the gun is a custom made shotgun that was heavy, had was hard to aim and pratically needed the user to be in point blank range of whatever they were shooting.

The novel literally says Gilver grew nimbler with the gun as he absorbed the information right out of it further showing that it isn't disdain for guns like Vergil but straight up ignorance on how they work.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I don't see how alternate timeline somehow means they don't share basic physiology when the story is almost the same? Atleast there are supporting evidence for it so it should be fine either way.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

This would be the equivalent of scaling Dante to PoC Dante feats because its consistent with what we see of Dante.

If PoC Dante has feats/statements that Main Dante does not, then cross-scaling is not valid yes, but PoC's statements in the OP explicitly confirm what the Sparda Bloodline showed in the main timeline, so cross-scaling is valid (as cross-scaling between the main and alternative Castlevania games is valid)

That's false, the novel explicitly says and I quote "And he created, but previously carefully studied how Dante, Vergil and Sparda fight. And the armor for the new demon was forged by the infernal smith Machiavelli. The created demon, hardened in hellfire and clad in strong armor, received the name "black knights". And they were not afraid of anyone." All of them are made with the whole data of the Sparda family, not individual ones.

The text refers to the Black Knights in general (plural), not just Gilver.Gilver's case proves that each Black Knight is made up of the combat data of one of the family members, not all of them combined.

And yeah, Gilver is uncomfortable with a gun because 1) As he tells Nell, he doesn't know much about guns if anything at all

So he doesn't have Dante and Sparda's battle data.

2) the gun is a custom made shotgun that was heavy, had was hard to aim and pratically needed the user to be in point blank range of whatever they were shooting.

"Heavy"
We're talking about a character with a Class K LS, and if he has Dante's combat data, he shouldn't have any problems.

The novel literally says Gilver grew nimbler with the gun as he absorbed the information right out of it further showing that it isn't disdain for guns like Vergil but straight up ignorance on how they work.

This proves once again that he doesn't have Dante and Sparda's combat data, because they already know how a gun works, while Vergil never uses one. Gilver managed to use it later precisely because of the Sparda bloodline's AD

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The text refers to the Black Knights in general (plural), not just Gilver.Gilver's case proves that each Black Knight is made up of the combat data of one of the family members, not all of them combined.

Gilver IS a black knight. The novel says that those same black knights hunted Tony for a long time but still were defeated. That is talking about Gilver.

Nothing, absolutely nothing says Gilver is special or that he is made with the data of only one of the family members. The novel even goes as far as to say Mundus kept creating more and more Black Knights but they were still defeated by Tony and Vergil and when he was running out of materials is when Vergil fell to the demon world defeated by Dante.

If Gilver was some special kind of Black Knight different from the others then Before the Nightmare would have said so, instead he is just one of many all created with the same process which involves the battle data of all 3 members.

So he doesn't have Dante and Sparda's battle data.

Going by this line of thought then he wouldn't have Vergil's either because Vergil knows what guns are and how to use them, he just finds them distasteful and dishonorable.

"Heavy"
We're talking about a character with a Class K LS, and if he has Dante's combat data, he shouldn't have any problems.

The point is, that shotgun is different from normal guns. See the point above.

This proves once again that he doesn't have Dante and Sparda's combat data, because they already know how a gun works, while Vergil never uses one. Gilver managed to use it later precisely because of the Sparda bloodline's AD

see the point above.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Gilver IS a black knight. The novel says that those same black knights hunted Tony for a long time but still were defeated. That is talking about Gilver.

Nothing, absolutely nothing says Gilver is special or that he is made with the data of only one of the family members. The novel even goes as far as to say Mundus kept creating more and more Black Knights but they were still defeated by Tony and Vergil and when he was running out of materials is when Vergil fell to the demon world defeated by Dante.

If Gilver was some special kind of Black Knight different from the others then Before the Nightmare would have said so, instead he is just one of many all created with the same process which involves the battle data of all 3 members.

I never said that Gilver was a special case nor that he wasn't a Black Knight, but that the text was talking about Black Knights in general, not exclusively about Gilver.

The statement regarding the Black Knights' combat data can be interpreted in two ways:

- The Black Knights have the combat data of both Sparda and the twins combined (so a Black Knight has the skills of Sparda, Vergil and Dante simultaneously).

or

- Each Black Knight only has the combat data of one family member (so some have Sparda's, some Vergil's, and some Dante's).

But if we bring back the case of Gilver (Vergil's clone), it is the second one that is valid.

Going by this line of thought then he wouldn't have Vergil's either because Vergil knows what guns are and how to use them, he just finds them distasteful and dishonorable.

It just says that Gilver doesn't know much about guns and isn't comfortable with them (like anyone who doesn't use guns often or ever), not that he doesn't know what they are (of course he knows, he's a mercenary).

When we saw Vergil use Ebony in DMC3, he knew how to use it (which shouldn't be the case since he never trains with firearms in general, and yet he managed to use a gun far more advanced than any other in just a few seconds) because it's thanks to his family's AD. It's literally like Dante with anything he can get his hands on.

Gilver didn't take long to get used to the shotgun either, as Nell herself noticed not to mention the fact that the Black Knights may not have perfect combat data on Sparda and his sons.

The point is, that shotgun is different from normal guns. See the point above.

The text makes it clear that Gilver was having trouble not just because it was a shotgun, but because he never uses firearms in general (since he is a clone of Vergil).

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

At least I could remove the statement from the PoC Royal Guard description that says Dante blend science and art in his techniques, since it is never mentioned in the main timeline.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

RG is called demon martial art in some DMC3 guide idr which one.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I never said that Gilver was a special case nor that he wasn't a Black Knight, but that the text was talking about Black Knights in general, not exclusively about Gilver.

The statement regarding the Black Knights' combat data can be interpreted in two ways:

- The Black Knights have the combat data of both Sparda and the twins combined (so a Black Knight has the skills of Sparda, Vergil and Dante simultaneously).

or

- Each Black Knight only has the combat data of one family member (so some have Sparda's, some Vergil's, and some Dante's).

Both interpretations are valid, but if we bring back the case of Gilver (Vergil's clone), it is the second one that is valid.

Mundus constantly experiments and upgrades the clones to make them keep up with Spardas. The Angelo's have their own AD taken from Sparda and amped by Mundus which even Gilver implicitly referenced. Logistically, they will end up having all combat data due to this, also keeping combat data exclusive a very stupid tactical decision, it's anti-thetical to having best combat potential.
Besides Tony handled all arguements perfectly imo.

Gonna agree with him here. You are mistaking expressed individuality of clones as being some hard cap to combat potential. As for the gun stuff, Tony already answered. Also remember these clones are helped manufactured by Machiavelli the best gun and armour forger in hell. Artemis, Titania, Pandora and countless other demon guns are his creations.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Mundus constantly experiments and upgrades the clones to make them keep up with Spardas. The Angelo's have their own AD taken from Sparda and amped by Mundus which even Gilver implicitly referenced. Logistically, they will end up having all combat data due to this, also keeping combat data exclusive a very stupid tactical decision, it's anti-thetical to having best combat potential.
Besides Tony handled all arguements perfectly imo.

Gonna agree with him here. You are mistaking expressed individuality of clones as being some hard cap to combat potential. As for the gun stuff, Tony already answered. Also remember these clones are helped manufactured by Machiavelli the best gun and armour forger in hell. Artemis, Titania, Pandora and countless other demon guns are his creations.

Tony's explanation about Gilver not knowing how to use a gun to begin with doesn't hold water at all tbh. If Gilver had Dante and Sparda's combat data, he would have known how to use it from the start. This completely proves that each Black Knight only has the skill of one member of the family.

Machiavelli only helped forge the armor of the Black Knights, so I don't see what your point is?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Tony's explanation about Gilver not knowing how to use a gun to begin with doesn't hold water at all tbh. If Gilver had Dante and Sparda's combat data, he would have known how to use it from the start. This completely proves that each Black Knight only has the skill of one member of the family.

You are mistaking expressed individuality of clones as being some hard cap to combat potential.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

You are mistaking expressed individuality of clones as being some hard cap to combat potential.

Because if he had Dante and Sparda's combat data, he would have been familiar with guns from the start, plain and simple. Combat data includes not just sword skills but also firearms skills, and this is literally one of Dante's main weapons.

Also, if Gilver had Dante's skills, Dante would have noticed that his own skills were being used against him and/or we would have seen Dante use the analytical prediction that Gilver was using against him.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

At least I could remove the statement from the PoC Royal Guard description that says Dante blend science and art in his techniques, since it is never mentioned in the main timeline.

That depends if you think Royal Guard is an in-game mechanic or not. It's the only description of its fundamentals so it's fine to take in as a supporting evidence if anything.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Because if he had Dante and Sparda's combat data, he would have been familiar with guns from the start, plain and simple. Combat data includes not just sword skills but also firearms skills, and this is literally one of Dante's main weapons.

Human guns are useless, they are supernaturally amped. Even low level anti demon guns are useless. Tony/Dante didn't have any powerful gun until E&I, neither did he have DE to amp his guns or any crazy gun skills. Both Gilver and Dante caught each other off guard with their guns, that super shotgun and those twin pistols, both created by Nell.
Another point is Luce and Ombra lore is practically non-existant aside from being magical crafted guns by Sparda himself. Did he use them himself or give a gift to Eva we don't know. So speculating it's combat data is not that uselful.

So these guns combat data that would be practically non-existant to put into the clones.

Also, if Gilver had Dante's skills, Dante would have noticed that his own skills were being used against him and/or we would have seen Dante use the analytical prediction that Gilver was using against him.

Mundus constantly experiments and upgrades the clones to make them keep up with Spardas. The Angelo's have their own AD taken from Sparda and amped by Mundus which even Gilver implicitly referenced.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Human guns are useless, they are supernaturally amped. Even low level anti demon guns are useless. Tony/Dante didn't have any powerful gun until E&I, neither did he have DE to amp his guns or any crazy gun skills. Both Gilver and Dante caught each other off guard with their guns, that super shotgun and those twin pistols, both created by Nell.
Another point is Luce and Ombra lore is practically non-existant aside from being magical crafted guns by Sparda himself. Did he use them himself or give a gift to Eva we don't know. So speculating it's combat data is not that uselful.

So these guns combat data that would be practically non-existant to put into the clones.

Mundus's goal is to kill Dante and Vergil, and guns can damage them since Gilver literally picked up a weapon to wound Dante and succeeded. BtN is talking about combat data, so all combat skills are included; there's no reason not to include firearms skills.

Mundus constantly experiments and upgrades the clones to make them keep up with Spardas. The Angelo's have their own AD taken from Sparda and amped by Mundus which even Gilver implicitly referenced.

If that were the case, Dante and Vergil would have been thrashed by Sparda's skills, because even in DMC2 Novel, Dante struggles against his father's skills. This proves that the Black Knights are not as good clones as you suggest.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

That depends if you think Royal Guard is an in-game mechanic or not. It's the only description of its fundamentals so it's fine to take in as a supporting evidence if anything.

Royal Guard exists in the lore; Dante uses it against Agnus in Deadly Fortune.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Mundus's goal is to kill Dante and Vergil, and guns can damage them since Gilver literally picked up a weapon to wound Dante and succeeded. BtN is talking about combat data, so all combat skills are included; there's no reason not to include firearms skills.

Gilver in that moment was giga-amped on his transformation and nexus, he practically negated Dante's regeneration and turned him to pulp with that super shotgun, remember that Tony casually walked off 40 dudes dumping military grade guns into him at start of novel and that did nothing. That shotgun not a normal weapon and neither is Gilver's magic. So it's not a "literally picked up a gun" moment for Gilver.
Regular guns have always been kinda useless in fights against anything better than absolute giga fodder humans and demons. So there is no relevant gun combat skills that even exist. What the hell is Mundus supposed to put in the clones?

If that were the case, Dante and Vergil would have been thrashed by Sparda's skills, because even in DMC2 Novel, Dante struggles against his father's skills. This proves that the Black Knights are not as good clones as you suggest.

There's many factors that gave Chen advantage in fight, Sparda's skills were wasted on Chen because he did not have soul and heart. Dante even compares him to Nelo Angelo. Willpower and emotions are huge amp in power and skill. Which all clones lack, not matter how good techniques they have or extra power ups and abilities they have. So those angelos or Chen will always lose to Spardas. That's not a slander against their technical aspects of skill but rather their heart. It might seem cheesy shonen like, but it is a canonical mechanic in the verse.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Gilver in that moment was giga-amped on his transformation and nexus, he practically negated Dante's regeneration and turned him to pulp with that super shotgun, remember that Tony casually walked off 40 dudes dumping military grade guns into him at start of novel and that did nothing. That shotgun not a normal weapon and neither is Gilver's magic. So it's not a "literally picked up a gun" moment for Gilver.
Regular guns have always been kinda useless in fights against anything better than absolute giga fodder humans and demons. So there is no relevant gun combat skills that even exist. What the hell is Mundus supposed to put in the clones?

Dante was literally affected by Denver's weapons and those of his group, as he regenerated his wounds. This means the weapons work on him, which is why Gilver took one.

There was no regeneration negation in play when Gilver shot Dante, otherwise he would have aimed directly for the head to kill him quickly, instead he incapacitated him with the shotgun and wanted to pierce his heart to kill him definitively.

And even without that, there is literally no reason not to include Dante's firearms skills in his combat data except by doing mental gymnastics.

There's many factors that gave Chen advantage in fight, Sparda's skills were wasted on Chen because he did not have soul and heart. Dante even compares him to Nelo Angelo. Willpower and emotions are huge amp in power and skill. Which all clones lack, not matter how good techniques they have or extra power ups and abilities they have. So those angelos or Chen will always lose to Spardas. That's not a slander against their technical aspects of skill but rather their heart. It might seem cheesy shonen like, but it is a canonical mechanic in the verse.

It is explicitly stated that his father's skills (combined with the Beastheads' precognitive powers) were the reason he was struggling against Chen. BtN clearly implies that Gilver is the only case where a Black Knight almost killed Dante, which means that all the others were easily killed by the twins despite Sparda's skills.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Moreover, if you take the argument of regeneration negation and the nexus, it makes even less sense that Mundus did not include Dante's firearms skills for Gilver when Gilver’s goal was precisely to uses the nexus.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Dante was literally affected by Denver's weapons and those of his group, as he regenerated his wounds. This means the weapons work on him, which is why Gilver took one.

When did I say he tanked it? I just said Tony was not at all weakened or debilitated at all from those bullets. Like have seen what a 556 bullet does to a human skull? Don't look it up if you are weak of stomach. Tony survived that without sweat, 40 people dumping that into him. Weapons hurting =/= Weapons negating immortality. And I clearly mentioned that shotgun is amped by his Gilver's power. Why didn't Dante recover easily from those wounds then like Tony showed at a much higher level? That shotgun legitimately ****** him up, definitely messed his healing, probably wouldn't have killed him, which is why Gilver relied on Faux Yamato.

Also this is first time Dante uses guns supernaturally.

And even without that, there is literally no reason not to include Dante's firearms skills in his combat data except by doing mental gymnastics.

There aren't any useful firearms skills to begin with at this point in story.

It is explicitly stated that his father's skills (combined with the Beastheads' precognitive powers) were the reason he was struggling against Chen. BtN clearly implies that Gilver is the only case where a Black Knight has given Dante difficulty, which means that all the others were easily killed by the twins despite Sparda's skills.

No, Dante references his brother explicitly in that battle. He is always called Nelo Angelo not Vergil.

Moreover, if you take the argument of regeneration negation and the nexus, it makes even less sense that Mundus did not include Dante's firearms skills for Gilver when Gilver’s goal was precisely to uses the nexus.

Like I said, there is currently no source of firearms skill at point. Dante doesn't have any notable guns and Sparda is complete speculation. Where are the firearm skills going to even come from?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Why didn't Dante recover easily from those wounds then like Tony showed at a much higher level?

Because the injuries inflicted were much more serious. We don't know exactly how many bullets Dante took against Denver and his team, whereas against Gilver he took point-blank shots from a shotgun, and Gilver deliberately targeted his leg at first to take him down.

It is very clear here that no regeneration negation is involved:
“Time to finish this. Though incomplete, you are
still one of us. Your wounds will eventually heal. Before
that happens...”
Gilver centered his katana above Dante's heart.
“If I cut this out, you won't recover, no matter
how much demon blood you have in you. Die peacefully,
Dante. Your life belongs to me.”

There aren't any useful firearms skills to begin with at this point in story.

Yes, as Gilver demonstrated by incapacitating Dante by shooting him in the leg. Mundus will use any means necessary to get Dante and Vergil kill, there's no reason why he shouldn't give his Black Knights Dante and Sparda's firearms skills.

No, Dante references his brother explicitly in that battle. He is always called Nelo Angelo not Vergil.

Chronologically, Trish's chapter discusses the Black Knights before the Dante and Vergil fight in DMC3 is mentioned, so it's impossible for it to refer to Nelo Angelo.

The chapter clearly states that despite all his efforts, Mundus never managed to kill either Dante or Vergil, and that the only time this happened was when Dante and Vergil nearly killed each other in DMC3.

Like I said, there is currently no source of firearms skill at point. Dante doesn't have any notable guns and Sparda is complete speculation. Where are the firearm skills going to even come from?

Dante was a mercenary two years before the events of Volume 1 (Gilver probably hadn't even been created yet). Dante has been using firearms from the beginning. And since you mentioned Machiavelli, he could very well have crafted magical firearms for the Black Knights. So there's even less reason why Mundus wouldn't have included firearms skills for his Black Knights.

(So maybe the Black Knights modeled on Dante's combat data did indeed have firearms made by Machiavelli, and those modeled on Vergil's combat data didn't, like Gilver, because Vergil never uses firearms so there's no data about that.)

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I don't know why you're so adamant on giving the Black Knights the combined skills of Sparda and the twins when everything indicates the opposite, and it wouldn't change the overall skills of Sparda's family at all.

I didn't expect this point to be so controversial (I was expecting the PoC scans to do it more), and I think there are much more important topics for the Devil May Cry pages that should be heavily discussed in a CRT.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Because the injuries inflicted were much more serious. We don't know exactly how many bullets Dante took against Denver and his team

We don't know how many, but even a fraction of that much is quite a lot.

whereas against Gilver he took point-blank shots from a shotgun, and Gilver deliberately targeted his leg at first to take him down.

And those bullets from gang would have hit everywhere too.

“Time to finish this. Though incomplete, you are
still one of us. Your wounds will eventually heal. Before
that happens...”
Gilver centered his katana above Dante's heart.
“If I cut this out, you won't recover, no matter
how much demon blood you have in you. Die peacefully,
Dante. Your life belongs to me.”

Why don't he heal instantly like he always does? Why eventually?

Also you are unnecessarily dragging this skill debate into regeneration one again. Point is simple. There is literally ZERO notable firearms skill displayed at all, so there is nothing to copy and put into clones. Do you understand what I am saying?

Yes, as Gilver demonstrated by incapacitating Dante by shooting him in the leg. Mundus will use any means necessary to get Dante and Vergil kill, there's no reason why he shouldn't give his Black Knights Dante and Sparda's firearms skills.

Because there aren't any to give?

Chronologically, Trish's chapter discusses the Black Knights before the Dante and Vergil fight in DMC3 is mentioned, so it's impossible for it to refer to Nelo Angelo.

The chapter clearly states that despite all his efforts, Mundus never managed to kill either Dante or Vergil, and that the only time this happened was when Dante and Vergil nearly killed each other in DMC3.

I was talking about Dante mentioning Nelo Angelo in Chen battle.

Dante was a mercenary two years before the events of Volume 1 (Gilver probably hadn't even been created yet). Dante has been using firearms from the beginning. And since you mentioned Machiavelli, he could very well have crafted magical firearms for the Black Knights. So there's even less reason why Mundus wouldn't have included firearms skills for his Black Knights.

Magic guns will be instantly identified by Tony/Dante, so they serve no purpose in stealth in the way the Angelos operated.

So maybe the Black Knights modeled on Dante's combat data did indeed have firearms made by Machiavelli,

Speculation without material.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

We don't know how many, but even a fraction of that much is quite a lot.

It only makes small holes in his body, nothing that incapacitates him like it did with Gilver

And those bullets from gang would have hit everywhere too.

We only have Denver's perspective, and he has difficulty seeing clearly due to the darkness and smoke. This case cannot be compared to Gilver's at all.

Why don't he heal instantly like he always does? Why eventually?

Show me where we see Pre-Awakening Dante instantly regenerating from such damage then.

Also you are unnecessarily dragging this skill debate into regeneration one again. Point is simple. There is literally ZERO notable firearms skill displayed at all, so there is nothing to copy and put into clones. Do you understand what I am saying?

Because there aren't any to give?

So now Dante has no notable skills with guns?

I was talking about Dante mentioning Nelo Angelo in Chen battle.

Ah ok, my bad. But no, Dante explicitly says he won't last long against his father's skills:
"Dante knew wouldn’t be able to last long against his father’s skills-especially not with just one good arm."

Magic guns will be instantly identified by Tony/Dante, so they serve no purpose in stealth in the way the Angelos operated.

Where is it stated that the Angelos always operate discreetly?

Speculation without material.

"maybe"

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It only makes small holes in his body, nothing that incapacitates him like it did with Gilver

Bruh

We only have Denver's perspective, and he has difficulty seeing clearly due to the darkness and smoke. This case cannot be compared to Gilver's at all.

So you want to be spoon fed?

Ah ok, my bad. But no, Dante explicitly says he won't last long against his father's skills:
"Dante knew wouldn’t be able to last long against his father’s skills-especially not with just one good arm."

Also Dante skill stomped him by the end, with his eyes closed, crippled and with all the hax and AD advantage Chen had.

Where is it stated that the Angelos always operate discreetly?

fr now? Gilver was not discreet? What?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bruh

Do I seriously need to explain that this is much more complicated for dodging after being shot in the leg at point-blank range with a shotgun?

So you want to be spoon fed?

Why don't you understand that the case of Denver and Gilver is different? We have Denver's point of view and he literally has a hard time understanding what's going on because there's a lack of visibility and Dante is clearly using that to his advantage.

Also Dante skill stomped him by the end, with his eyes closed, crippled and with all the hax and AD advantage Chen had.

I never said otherwise, my point is that it had to wait until this moment for Dante to outskill his father, a decade after the events of DMC Volume 1.

fr now? Gilver was not discreet? What?

I was asking you where it says that all the Black Knights operated discreetly all the time (because it's never said in BtN), not that Gilver didn't act discreetly bruh.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Do I seriously need to explain that this is much more complicated for dodging after being shot in the leg at point-blank range with a shotgun?

I "bruhed" at how you said "small holes", not whatever this is you said.

Why don't you understand that the case of Denver and Gilver is different? We have Denver's point of view and he literally has a hard time understanding what's going on because there's a lack of visibility and Dante is clearly using that to his advantage.

Tony just walked it off and aura farmed, he didn't pull any elaborate stunt. I don't see what headcanon you are pulling.

I never said otherwise, my point is that it had to wait until this moment for Dante to outskill his father, a decade after the events of DMC Volume 1.

We haven't seen prime Sparda in skill, so it's elusive to speculate, he could still be more skilled than current twins, and consequently even an enraged Tony might pressure Prime Sparda in skill with power of heart bullshit. Skill debates aren't so cut and dry. Especially in DMC where plot armour has in verse justification.
Which is why I mentioned how Dante getting enraged skill stomped Chen.

Somethings go beyond simple cut and dry intelligence.

I was asking you where it says that all the Black Knights operated discreetly all the time (because it's never said in BtN), not that Gilver didn't act discreetly bruh.

bruh.
Show me video or scan of those clones going gung ho guns blazing and blasting to kill Sparda twins.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Tony just walked it off and aura farmed, he didn't pull any elaborate stunt. I don't see what headcanon you are pulling.

It was dark and they weren't at point-blank range, so Dante was confident and had nothing to fear. We don't know how many bullets hit him, and a shotgun is more powerful than a rifle, so it's not comparable to Gilver's case.

We haven't seen prime Sparda in skill, so it's elusive to speculate, he could still be more skilled than current twins, and consequently even an enraged Tony might pressure Prime Sparda in skill with power of heart bullshit. Skill debates aren't so cut and dry. Especially in DMC where plot armour has in verse justification.
Which is why I mentioned how Dante getting enraged skill stomped Chen.

Somethings go beyond simple cut and dry intelligence.

If that were the case, Dante would never have lost a fight in his life.

bruh.
Show me video or scan of those clones going gung ho guns blazing and blasting to kill Sparda twins.

I asked you to show me evidence that all the Black Knights have always attacked discreetly because you told me that's why Machiavelli didn't give them any firearms from the Demon World, so prove it.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It was dark and they weren't at point-blank range, so Dante was confident and had nothing to fear. We don't know how many bullets hit him, and a shotgun is more powerful than a rifle, so it's not comparable to Gilver's case.

Rifles are supposed to be used at range, and sawwed off at point blank. Rifle bullets work remarkably good in their optimal range. Do you want me to post 556 bullets vs geleitin or pig heads?

If that were the case, Dante would never have lost a fight in his life.

Red herring throwaway sentence. We are talking about skill, i just showed you it's not dictated by technical aspects alone but plot too.

I asked you to show me evidence that all the Black Knights have always attacked discreetly because you told me that's why Machiavelli didn't give them any firearms from the Demon World, so prove it.

nananana you don't get to reverse burden of proof. Gilver is the reason i made that claim of stealth, it's an already established fact. You made a positive claim of Angelos using magic guns, so now you prove it.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Rifles are supposed to be used at range, and sawwed off at point blank. Rifle bullets work remarkably good in their optimal range. Do you want me to post 556 bullets vs geleitin or pig heads?

This literally changes nothing about the fact that a point-blank shotgun remains more destructive than a rifle and that Denver's case in general is incomparable to Gilver's.

Red herring throwaway sentence. We are talking about skill, i just showed you it's not dictated by technical aspects alone but plot too.

You just told me about the DMC2 case of Dante vs Chen and said that Tony could sort of hold his own against Sparda skill wise (whereas Dante had lost against Gilver and Vergil).

nananana you don't get to reverse burden of proof. Gilver is the reason i made that claim of stealth, it's an already established fact.

"established fact"
In this case, proves that all the Black Knights acted like Gilver, because it is never said or shown in Volume 1 or BtN.

You made a positive claim of Angelos using magic guns, so now you prove it.

I never claimed that the Black Knights had guns, bruh, reread the discussion.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

We're getting a bit off-topic, you're starting to run out of arguments and the staff needs to evaluate my CRT, so we should stop there.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yes, No, but fair enough, okay.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Bump

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I disagree with you for the reasons I laid above, you didn't present anything that debunks it

bump

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I disagree with you for the reasons I laid above, you didn't present anything that debunks it

I did it, it's you who didn't present anything that's debunking it:

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Just get a room already y'all.