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So... this has been a thing I had in mind from quite some time. I still plan to continue the big UT revisions, but given that this affects both Undertale and Deltarune, I feel like this has more priority.
This has been discussed, removed and then re-added multiple times across the years, so I'd like for this to be the absolute last time we discuss this topic.
The roots of the argument are the following, for a TLDR:
Starting with armors, the descriptions of some of the items are the following:
The only issue that could be raised is the fact that the Old Tutu is described as being a simple piece of protective armor, but given how a good chunk of the other items is definitely not normal armor, it should have the same properties given that it comes from the Underground, and Occam's Razor dictates that it should be the same as the others in properties. Sure, the Bandage is not something that originates from the Underground given that Frisk has it already at the very beginning of the game, but let's not forget that the literal trash of the human world is used as the basis of the technology of the Underground, so there must be something going on down above too which would have made the Bandage that way, who knows.
Let's go to the healing items. Not bothering with the descriptions, as they all share the same property: healing HPs, with some also increasing other statistics when used.
Sure, the fact that there are some completely normal looking food among these items (ex. Butterscotch Pie, Instant Noodles and Potato Chips) is indeed pretty damning at first glance, but... we have this NPC who says that monster food, compared to human food, does neither spoil nor pass through the entire body, and that they've never gone to the bathroom, implying that monster food does not become waste, which is confirmed from the NPC saying that monster food is instantly converted into energy at consumption, something that also explains why Frisk instantly heals HP as soon as they eat these foods, which fits with how monsters are made of magic and thus are attuned with their SOULs while not having much physical matter on their own. We have also this statement about the fact that they have never eaten human food before, implying that every consumable item we get in the Underground is not human food, including the "normal food". Because of this, the idea of Frisk restoring HP with average everyday food that the CRT in question claims is just wrong.
Going to the weapons now, this is where more leeway is given, but some still have some special powers (Torn Notebook increasing INV Frames, Burnt Pan increasing the healing effect of consumables and Empty Gun just being capable of shooting despite not having ammo), which also debunks the notion of them being regular. Using the same logic of the CRT in question, if all Armors must have some magic property, Weapons must have as well. Nothing much to say.
Regarding how it works on VS Threads against non-UTDR verses, we obviously do not assume that they instantly one-shot the SOUL of beings who lack resistance, as haxes need feats of one-shotting to do so in VS Threads, and they clearly do not one-shot a Frisk at their weakest and without armor despite humans in UT not having magic in normal circumstances. However, given the information given above, it still means that Magic and physical durability are different in Undertale (also because Magic is what has ultimately defeated Mad Dummy, unlike Frisk's purely physical blows), unless we talk about UT Monsters given their magic-based physiology. Deltarune seems to be also the same, as Noelle, a character who specializes in Magic instead of Physical ATK, gets different boosts in these two stats from items, or also the fact that Susie is physically much stronger than Ralsei, but is also far lower than him in Magic according to the stats, as also shown by having a much worse healing spell than his in Chapter 2. It's pretty clear and consistent across both games that both equipment and healing items aren't purely conventional and physical objects, but magical ones that empower/heal both the body and SOUL of the owner with energy.
So, what do we do? We simply treat stuff like this, regardless of the durability of the opponent (unless they have feats defending against such attacks in their verse too obviously):
This has been discussed, removed and then re-added multiple times across the years, so I'd like for this to be the absolute last time we discuss this topic.
The problem
This CRT exists, and is the reason why currently Undertale's SOUL Hax, while acknowledging that it negates durability by targeting the SOUL of the target, can be reduced, up to be completely negated by simply being physically far stronger than the Undertale character in question. This also affects Deltarune as both verses are made from the same person and use the same mechanics in that regard (I'll get to it when talking about Deltarune specifically, this is about Undertale after all).The roots of the argument are the following, for a TLDR:
- As weapons in Undertale are conventional, armors should be too, meaning that they merely increase Frisk's physical durability while also reducing damage from the SOUL-based attacks from the monsters.
- Healing items are just normal real-life food, meaning that they don't have any special property while healing Frisk's HP.
Items in Undertale are NOT conventional
The CRT used a list of some "normal" looking items, but it completely ignores important information that is basic knowledge of Undertale's lore.Starting with armors, the descriptions of some of the items are the following:
- Bandage: Can become a consumable item that heals 10 HP.
- Faded Ribbon: If you're cuter, monsters won't hit you as hard.
- Cloudy Glasses: Glasses marred with wear. Increases INV by 9.
- Temmie Armor: The things you can do with a college education! Raises ATTACK when worn. Recovers HP every other turn. INV up slightly.
- Stained Apron: Heals 1 HP every other turn.
- Cowbow Hat: This battle-worn hat makes you want to grow a beard. It also raises ATTACK by 5.
The only issue that could be raised is the fact that the Old Tutu is described as being a simple piece of protective armor, but given how a good chunk of the other items is definitely not normal armor, it should have the same properties given that it comes from the Underground, and Occam's Razor dictates that it should be the same as the others in properties. Sure, the Bandage is not something that originates from the Underground given that Frisk has it already at the very beginning of the game, but let's not forget that the literal trash of the human world is used as the basis of the technology of the Underground, so there must be something going on down above too which would have made the Bandage that way, who knows.
Let's go to the healing items. Not bothering with the descriptions, as they all share the same property: healing HPs, with some also increasing other statistics when used.
Sure, the fact that there are some completely normal looking food among these items (ex. Butterscotch Pie, Instant Noodles and Potato Chips) is indeed pretty damning at first glance, but... we have this NPC who says that monster food, compared to human food, does neither spoil nor pass through the entire body, and that they've never gone to the bathroom, implying that monster food does not become waste, which is confirmed from the NPC saying that monster food is instantly converted into energy at consumption, something that also explains why Frisk instantly heals HP as soon as they eat these foods, which fits with how monsters are made of magic and thus are attuned with their SOULs while not having much physical matter on their own. We have also this statement about the fact that they have never eaten human food before, implying that every consumable item we get in the Underground is not human food, including the "normal food". Because of this, the idea of Frisk restoring HP with average everyday food that the CRT in question claims is just wrong.
Going to the weapons now, this is where more leeway is given, but some still have some special powers (Torn Notebook increasing INV Frames, Burnt Pan increasing the healing effect of consumables and Empty Gun just being capable of shooting despite not having ammo), which also debunks the notion of them being regular. Using the same logic of the CRT in question, if all Armors must have some magic property, Weapons must have as well. Nothing much to say.
Deltarune is pretty much in the same boat as Undertale
Both Undertale and Deltarune seem to share the same mechanics regarding SOUL Manipulation, as shown by the following:- In both games, the SOUL has been called the very culimation of one's being, as even said from (ew) So Sorry as well.
- In both games, magic is the source of power used by those who can harm the SOUL (for Undertale there's an entire section of evidence of Monsters using magic to harm the SOUL in their Physiology Page, in Deltarune Monsters and Darkners not only can they use magic from their Battle Menu, but there are explicit statements of magic and spells existing in the Dark World, with Noelle also mentioning her wishing to have her healing spells in the Light World as well. This is also reflected from scarves and rings all increasing the magic stat as well for Ralsei and Noelle respectively [with PuppetScarf decreasing magic specifically to favor the physical attack]. Oh and we have Devilsknife for Susie that increases her magic too)
- I am aware that Kris does not really have magic either, but unlike Frisk who explicitly cannot interact ghosts Napstablook or Mad Dummy right because they're incorporeal, with Frisk themselves lacking magic, Kris can easily do so indeed. Kris is just built different I suppose.
- In both games, SOUL absorption shenanigans are at hand (again, read the Monster Physiology page for the Undertale part, while in Deltarune we have Spamton trying to get Kris' SOUL {even though what would happen is left unknown unlike with Undertale})
- Pink Ribbon: A cute hair ribbon. Increases the range at which bullets raise tension.
- Silver Watch: Grazing bullets affects the turn length by 10% more Maybe an expensive antique. Stuck before half past noon.
- Sky Mantle: A cape that shimmers fluorescently. Protects against Elec and Holy attacks.
- Shadow Mantle: Shadows slip off like water. Greatly protects against Dark and Star attacks.
- Blue Ribbon: A blue cheer bow. When the user uses a healing move, it recovers slightly more HP.
- Dealmaker: Fashionable pink and yellow glasses. Greatly increases $ gained, and...?
- Gold Widow: A spider made of gold. It gathers coins into it, reducing $ gained.
What do we do
The note that we have in the Monster Physiology page regarding how their attacks can be defended with by just a high enough physical durability should be axed, obviously.Regarding how it works on VS Threads against non-UTDR verses, we obviously do not assume that they instantly one-shot the SOUL of beings who lack resistance, as haxes need feats of one-shotting to do so in VS Threads, and they clearly do not one-shot a Frisk at their weakest and without armor despite humans in UT not having magic in normal circumstances. However, given the information given above, it still means that Magic and physical durability are different in Undertale (also because Magic is what has ultimately defeated Mad Dummy, unlike Frisk's purely physical blows), unless we talk about UT Monsters given their magic-based physiology. Deltarune seems to be also the same, as Noelle, a character who specializes in Magic instead of Physical ATK, gets different boosts in these two stats from items, or also the fact that Susie is physically much stronger than Ralsei, but is also far lower than him in Magic according to the stats, as also shown by having a much worse healing spell than his in Chapter 2. It's pretty clear and consistent across both games that both equipment and healing items aren't purely conventional and physical objects, but magical ones that empower/heal both the body and SOUL of the owner with energy.
So, what do we do? We simply treat stuff like this, regardless of the durability of the opponent (unless they have feats defending against such attacks in their verse too obviously):
- For Undertale: Simply treat the SOUL of the non-UT opponent as having 20 HP, with monsters being able to destroy it in few blows like they do in-game, as 20 is the amount of HP Frisk has at their lowest, which is LV 1, and that's assumed to be the baseline for everyone as LV is a mechanic that exists only in Undertale specifically.
- For Deltarune: Same as UT, but we treat the baseline of the non-DR opponent at 90 HP as that's the stat Kris (the human) has in the Dark World at their weakest. I know that in Deltarune "LV" is also there, but it seems to be in line with how every other video-game uses the concept unlike UT, given that the LV increases by its own at each chapter given that in DR killing is impossible (unless you use Noelle).
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