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Don't know what to title this one - Isshiki Otsutsuki vs Ultraman Ace - Boruto: Naruto Next Generations vs Ultra Series

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EddisherSound

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Ace with u- wait, wrong Ace


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vs
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Isshiki art by dt50101
Ultraman Ace art by tekkoontan


  • True Form Isshiki
  • Showa Era Ultraman Ace
  • Ultraman Ace starts off human-sized
  • Speed is equalized
  • Battle takes place in Man in the Mirror's Mirror World


Isshiki scales to 29.23 Foe
Ultraman Ace scales to 3.159 KiloFoe

The Leader of Kara:

Guillotine Prince:

Gold ship:
 
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Pretty sure the latter is NPI and doesn't really matter here since Isshiki is not a concept.
Idk about passively manipulating concepts, thats not on the physiology page from what i can see. I'll wait for Eddisher to clarify
 
The ability has two usages:
  1. Passively manipulate a concept.
Ok, but does that have any bearing on this match? Like can Ace just passively erase the concept of “Ishikki” from the universe or it’s just “he can change concepts passively” cuz if it’s the latter than I don’t think it’s relevant to this match
  1. Directly attack a concept with their energy beams.
do they destroy the concept? Or erase them? Cuz if it’s only attacks the concepts and doesn’t do any relevant damage than it simply means those beams have NPI
 
Ok, but does that have any bearing on this match? Like can Ace just passively erase the concept of “Ishikki” from the universe or it’s just “he can change concepts passively” cuz if it’s the latter than I don’t think it’s relevant to this match
No, I’m just explaining.

do they destroy the concept? Or erase them? Cuz if it’s only attacks the concepts and doesn’t do any relevant damage than it simply means those beams have NPI
They damage and destroy the Concept. No..? Why would it only mean that they have NPI to Concepts, when normally, you can’t chip damage a Concept and need an ability on a fundamental level to do that.

Either way, Ace smacks Jigen.
 
They damage and destroy the Concept. No..? Why would it only mean that they have NPI to Concepts, when normally, you can’t chip damage a Concept and need an ability on a fundamental level to do that.
Ok, but my question still stands what does the beam do to concepts of individuals that would allow for Ace to insta kill Ishikki? You just said it can damage concepts and didn’t list any specific case where it can insta kill or be used in an relevant manner.

Like Cecilius from rezero can use conceptual manipulation to powernull abilities and make it so that their opponents can never use that ability again cuz they removed the very concept of that ability from their world. So what can this beam do that would be relevant to this fight without simply being NPI.

Also ishikki would simply powernull the beam anyway assuming it’s not conceptual in nature
 
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from what i saw, he has a insane physiology, his "plot manip" can't be taken here due to the in-verse narration and the "god" isn't here and if i have to give a wincon it would be Daikokuten that Seal+Time stop him and he hasn't a resistance to that from what i saw
 
Ok, but my question still stands what does the beam do to concepts of individuals that would allow for Ace to insta kill Ishikki? You just said it can damage concepts and didn’t list any specific case where it can insta kill or be used in an relevant manner.
The beams can damage something on a conceptual level. Unless Isshiki has resistance to attacks that can damage Type 2 Concepts, he’s definitely dying to Ace’s attacks.

And I don’t have to bring up the specific case you’re asking for as it’s literally just common sense that a normal guy (guy who doesn’t have resistance to CM-2 in this case) can’t tank an attack that can damage stuff on a conceptual level.

Also ishikki would simply powernull the beam anyway assuming it’s not conceptual in nature
Bring proof that Isshiki’s Power Nullification can nullify stuff that has Unconventional Soul and Mind Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2).
 
Tell me you didn’t read the full explanation + the scans without telling me:
from what i saw, he has a insane physiology, his "plot manip" can't be taken here due to the in-verse narration and the "god" isn't here and if i have to give a wincon it would be Daikokuten that Seal+Time stop him and he hasn't a resistance to that from what i saw
It’s blatantly stated and shown that Ultras have the abilities to manipulate the narrative of the show up to the Real World’s level (higher dimensional world, but this isn’t relevant). Dyna proves this to us by changing the narrative of his episode and rewriting Narumi’s pre-written plot where Bundar can’t die.

I don’t know why you’re bringing up “God” here since that’s not an actual individual in the Ultra Series, but rather their status as divine entities that are the direct enemy of Narumi who can also manipulate the narrative.

Also, from what I’ve seen, Isshiki’s sealing works by shrinking stuff first with Sukunahikona and then transferring them to his pocket dimension with Daikokuten. Problem is, what’s to say Ace can’t size back up or Dimensional Travel out of Isshiki’s dimension?
 
Is it a physical attack or something else?
It’s an energy based attack.

What's ultraman's usual tactics/wincons, and how good is his skill?
Ace usually starts off with hand to hand combat to gradually weaken the enemy, and then finish them off with his finisher (like the Metallic Beam for example.

He’s a guy who who’s fought hundreds, if not more enemies in a span of 15.000 years. He’s part of the Space Garrison, an intergalactic space team created with the sole purpose of protecting the universe from universe destroying maniacs with insane skill (some have hundreds of thousands of experience).
 
The beams can damage something on a conceptual level. Unless Isshiki has resistance to attacks that can damage Type 2 Concepts, he’s definitely dying to Ace’s attacks.

And I don’t have to bring up the specific case you’re asking for as it’s literally just common sense that a normal guy (guy who doesn’t have resistance to CM-2 in this case) can’t tank an attack that can damage stuff on a conceptual level.


Bring proof that Isshiki’s Power Nullification can nullify stuff that has Unconventional Soul and Mind Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2).
totally useless knowing that your skill doesn't have any special ontology and is just a bea of energy that has cheated effects but to cause this effects the beam has to interact with you so isshiki is not gonna directly powernull the effects but the beam of ENERGY and we have here a relation of consequence : SHRINK LASER BEAM--->NERF THE EFFECTS AND EVEN EVENTUALLY THE TOTALITY DUE TO THE SIZE OF the beam after sukunahikona effects .And you're just saying that cause he has those effects then we have to proof when the skill of sukunahikona is shrink everything that hasn't any Living organism (Indeed in the extensions of the franchise like chakra based things so spiritual and physical energy or just inanimate weapons like kunai,sword and ect..) so it can be shrunk and btw isshiki doesn't have to necessarily shrink ultra to put him in his dimension cause kawaki did it without it (with naruto and hinata, and even tried to do it on boruto and failed cause to the karma of his) so Isshiki is capable of doing the same knowing that at that moment kawaki had limiters and wasn't better than isshiki on Kokugan(Name of the shinjutsu)
 
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The beams can damage something on a conceptual level. Unless Isshiki has resistance to attacks that can damage Type 2 Concepts, he’s definitely dying to Ace’s attacks.

And I don’t have to bring up the specific case you’re asking for as it’s literally just common sense that a normal guy (guy who doesn’t have resistance to CM-2 in this case) can’t tank an attack that can damage stuff on a conceptual level.
Hence it’s just NPI, if I go and damage a soul that means I can interact with soul but that doesn’t necessitate that I insta kill one shot Smurf hax my opponent just cuz I can touch abstract stuff.

It’s a case by case thing, hence requiring proof and feats that it’s relevant to this battle. The wiki rules literally states that
  • All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the use of the power. A character who embodies a concept cannot create, manipulate, or destroy it unless otherwise shown. A character who can create a concept cannot destroy it unless otherwise shown, and vice versa.
So what does this beam power even do? You have not provided any substantial evidence that this beams conceptual manipulation can actually do anything to opponents relative to Ace or is relevant in any way, shape or form in the battle. Instead opting to say “it’s CM 2 so he wins”
Bring proof that Isshiki’s Power Nullification can nullify stuff that has Unconventional Soul and Mind Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2).
I don’t see this on the profile. And you said yourself that the beams are made of energy and hence can be nullified
It’s an energy based attack.
 
Hence it’s just NPI, if I go and damage a soul that means I can interact with soul but that doesn’t necessitate that I insta kill one shot Smurf hax my opponent just cuz I can touch abstract stuff.

It’s a case by case thing, hence requiring proof and feats that it’s relevant to this battle. The wiki rules literally states that
  • All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the use of the power. A character who embodies a concept cannot create, manipulate, or destroy it unless otherwise shown. A character who can create a concept cannot destroy it unless otherwise shown, and vice versa.
So what does this beam power even do? You have not provided any substantial evidence that this beams conceptual manipulation can actually do anything to opponents relative to Ace or is relevant in any way, shape or form in the battle. Instead opting to say “it’s CM 2 so he wins”

I don’t see this on the profile. And you said yourself that the beams are made of energy and hence can be nullified
yeah knowing that isshiki shrunked Chakra on his PURE form as 2 Rasengan(made of pure ENERGY) of Naruto kcm2+6PTH
 
Ace has a rather sizable AP advantage from the looks of it. Well over 108x stronger than Isshiki. But since he starts off in human size he might have a bit of a harder time hitting Isshiki due to the shrinking. And since Ace starts off in human size he’s susceptible to Isshiki’s durability negating size shifting rods. Ace is like a master martial artists but I dunno how to go in depth about his skill level to compare the two.

But anyways usually Ace’s tactics are just go in hand to hand against his opponents and occasionally throws in a few beam and cutting techniques to restrain or hit his opponent here and there. So at first Ace should have a hard time hitting Isshiki due to the shrinking. But he can always just circumvent this by returning to his true size.

And even if he doesn’t the moment Isshiki makes one mistake and thought he finished Ace and walks up to him to try and end him up and personal like he did with all his fights. Ace could return to his true size and grab Isshiki by surprise. After that all he has to do is crush him or shoot energy from his hand or head to one shot Isshiki due to the massive AP gap.
 
totally useless knowing that your skill doesn't have any special ontology and is just a bea of energy that has cheated effects but to cause this effects the beam has to interact with you so isshiki is not gonna directly powernull the effects but the beam of ENERGY and we have here a relation of consequence : SHRINK LASER BEAM--->NERF THE EFFECTS AND EVEN EVENTUALLY THE TOTALITY DUE TO THE SIZE OF the beam after sukunahikona effects .And you're just saying that cause he has those effects then we have to proof when the skill of sukunahikona is shrink everything that hasn't any Living organism (Indeed in the extensions of the franchise like chakra based things so spiritual and physical energy or just inanimate weapons like kunai,sword and ect..) so it can be shrunk and btw isshiki doesn't have to necessarily shrink ultra to put him in his dimension cause kawaki did it without it (with naruto and hinata, and even tried to do it on boruto and failed cause to the karma of his) so Isshiki is capable of doing the same knowing that at that moment kawaki had limiters and wasn't better than isshiki on Kokugan(Name of the shinjutsu)
It's not "just a beam of energy," it's a beam of energy that can mess you up both metaphysically and conceptually whilst also instantly killing you due to the fact that it's higher than what Isshiki can tank. So, you have to prove that Isshiki can shrink an attack of that caliber (better hax and higher AP) if you wanna claim that Isshiki can do anything to Ace's energy attacks.

Kawaki and Isshiki are two different people, and Isshiki usually starts a battle off with hand to hand combat as seen when he 'fought' (toyed) with Naruto and Sasuke. So, Ace would actually murder Isshiki first with higher AP and the effects of his beam before Isshiki can do anything to Ace.

Hence it’s just NPI, if I go and damage a soul that means I can interact with soul but that doesn’t necessitate that I insta kill one shot Smurf hax my opponent just cuz I can touch abstract stuff.
No, lol. That's Soul Manipulation, not everything in this world is NPI. Who taught you that? If I can damage the Soul, Mind and Concepts with my attacks, then that means the quality of my attack is on a metaphysical and conceptual level.
It’s a case by case thing, hence requiring proof and feats that it’s relevant to this battle. The wiki rules literally states that
  • All Conceptual Manipulators are bound by the use of the power. A character who embodies a concept cannot create, manipulate, or destroy it unless otherwise shown. A character who can create a concept cannot destroy it unless otherwise shown, and vice versa.
So what does this beam power even do? You have not provided any substantial evidence that this beams conceptual manipulation can actually do anything to opponents relative to Ace or is relevant in any way, shape or form in the battle. Instead opting to say “it’s CM 2 so he wins”
I've already explained the mechanism of Ace's CM-2 a couple times. I'm not gonna repeat my words. If you want to know it in full detail, read the Ultra Physiology.
I don’t see this on the profile. And you said yourself that the beams are made of energy and hence can be nullified
It's in the Ultra Physiology. No, you would have to prove that Isshiki can nullify an ability with a quality superior to Chakra, or whatever Isshiki previously nullified in Boruto.

yeah knowing that isshiki shrunked Chakra on his PURE form as 2 Rasengan(made of pure ENERGY) of Naruto kcm2+6PTH
Chakra and an Ultra's energy attacks are different. Stop generalizing both of them. I don't see chakra attacking a countless amount of Souls and Minds, and also damaging Concepts (Type 2).
 
It's not "just a beam of energy," it's a beam of energy that can mess you up both metaphysically and conceptually whilst also instantly killing you due to the fact that it's higher than what Isshiki can tank. So, you have to prove that Isshiki can shrink an attack of that caliber (better hax and higher AP) if you wanna claim that Isshiki can do anything to Ace's energy attacks.

Kawaki and Isshiki are two different people, and Isshiki usually starts a battle off with hand to hand combat as seen when he 'fought' (toyed) with Naruto and Sasuke. So, Ace would actually murder Isshiki first with higher AP and the effects of his beam before Isshiki can do anything to Ace.


No, lol. That's Soul Manipulation, not everything in this world is NPI. Who taught you that? If I can damage the Soul, Mind and Concepts with my attacks, then that means the quality of my attack is on a metaphysical and conceptual level.
And that’s about it, it can attack on that level and hence it’s NPi nothing more nothing less. the CM2 you keep bring up is useless in this fight because it’s not the determining factor that would kill ishikki but the AP difference between both Ace and Ishikki.

So stop bringing up CM2 like it’s some one shot hax here. It does nothing except but be able to interact with concepts and has no bearing here what so ever.
I've already explained the mechanism of Ace's CM-2 a couple times. I'm not gonna repeat my words. If you want to know it in full detail, read the Ultra Physiology.
And your physiology doesn’t have anything notable in it that would indicate why CM2 is a insta win. But hey I could be wrong and you can provide scans and proof me wrong like I have been asking for so long
It's in the Ultra Physiology. No, you would have to prove that Isshiki can nullify an ability with a quality superior to Chakra, or whatever Isshiki previously nullified in Boruto.
It’s literally listed as energy, where does it say that is comprised of souls, mind and concepts? This is where your mistaking, you are assuming that being able to interact with these abstract ideas makes the beam it self abstract in nature which is not the case. This is why I keep saying it’s NPI because it is NPI
Chakra and an Ultra's energy attacks are different. Stop generalizing both of them. I don't see chakra attacking a countless amount of Souls and Minds, and also damaging Concepts (Type 2).
And? Just because you can attack said thing doesn’t mean that your attacks are made of those things. Like what I said above
 
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It doesn’t matter what the beam can attack, be it a multidimensional object, countless souls or minds or even concepts. What matters is what that beam is made of, and so far the profiles says it made of energy and hence it can be nullified by ishikki, if the beam was made of concepts and such than yes I would concede that ishikki can’t nullify them which isn’t the case going off Aces profile
 
Yeah I'm reading the Ultra Physiology page and the CM2 really doesn't seem combat applicable here.
Countering a very niche CM and conceptual NPI are really not relevant against Isshiki who's neither a CM user nor a concept himself.

CM users are limited to known applications of their CM. Just because someone can counter conceptual erasure doesn't mean they can do anything with any concepts. And nothing I can see on the UP page indicates anything even remotely relevant to this match up.
 
Yeah, let's not bring up CM here, it's not an instant win for Ace (that would change after the Light and Darkness CRT, but that's nowhere near done, and as for whatever the result of this match is, and how much the upgraded CM change things here, we'll have to cross that bridge when we get to it, but the bridge haven't even been built)

As for the current arguments (Isshiki shrinking Ace's beams), Ace doesn't start with his signature beam, he's gonna spam energy projectiles, and when Isshiki shrink them, he's gonna stop doing that, and starts throwing hands

Hell, going by the show itself, Ace is probably gonna start off with CQC, and if Isshiki can survive that, Ace would use energy projectiles, sees them get shrunk by Isshiki, and he would stop using energy attacks. As for Isshiki surviving the first CQC sequence, I guess him shrinking himself down would help, though I haven't seen him attacking while shrunk down, so I'll assume he has to be regular sized to attack, and that would leave him pretty vulnerable to the beyond one shot gap punches Ace has

On the topic of punches, I'm surprised Peter and Gecko didn't bring up the fact that energy attacks aren't the only ones that has the effects, but their physical attacks as well. As for Ace's skill, that's gonna be brought up by another supporter
 
Let's start from the beginning. Thankfully since it's the Showa Era, Ace's skills wouldn't so far exceed Isshiki's.

For starters, Ultras are a race of superhumans, born and raised from the start of their lives to be able to handle such inherent powers in them. And then we have the Intergalactic Defence Force. Of the billions of Ultras living on the Land of Light, Ace's homeworld, only a million are enlisted to become a ranger, with a handful few from their homeworld alone that really stands out. Among them are a civilization observer, basically a security agent, and a member of the Elite Task Force, which of course entails an Ultra with exceptional abilities. And note, this only covers the basic of basics, and even then, by measure of some timeline stuff, Ace is head and shoulder above these guys because he is considered an Ultra Brother, the highest acknowledgement known even among the higher ups of the Land of Light.

To give an image of what the baseline is, even a normal ranger like Ultraman and Ultraseven, the latter of whom was only a galactic mapper mind you, are known to be well-versed in the various threats that are present in their universe. From monsters and aliens using invisibility, teleportation, and even reality warpers, Ace is noteworthy enough to be considered of the same caliber as these Ultras, being able to also adapt to the many fighting styles and tactics employed by their enemies.

It should also be noted, that Ace in the Showa Era alone fought against the gigantified form of the Yapool beings, who constantly live in an, and utilize extradimensional technology and forces to enact their plans. Ace fought this Giant Yapool, in that very same home base of extradimensional space where Yapool was freely manipulating the space itself to disorient Ace, and he powered through it with no external help.

When it comes to tactics, Ace should opt for physical attacks. But given his experiences, I'd say there's just as much probability that he'd go for his expansive list of techniques that are bolstered by the AP advantage he has. He also has a few restraining techniques to help him buy time even with the LS disadvantage. For an example of what some of those might be, refer to this: Ace demolishes basically some grunts (Around 7:42)

Extra note, Ultras' energy techniques are often also called Light waves or similar words, and that's usually because they're derived from their Inner Lights, which has the properties already mentioned before. They don't have to bypass any physical forces to attack the inner consciousness too, as they have shown time and again to be able to clash directly with someone that resides in the Inner Space, where their mind and soul reside. Here's one example of an even more amateur Ultra doing just that: Geed directly hitting someone inside their Inner Space (17:24).

And apologies for the roundabout way of explaining this as the franchise itself gives sparse showings of these feats, but basically Light encompassing all aspects of existence it covers is something Darkness can overcome and vice versa, so this means an Ultra can apply the effects of what they're resisting.

A few examples being (Belial overtaking and absorbing Geed's Light|2:37, a case for Dark Ultras)

*(Gaia and Agul feeding into a spacetime warp|4:55, a case for Light users accidentally opening a wormhole when they don't control their powers)

I hope I've made a few things clear on how Ace's skill looks like, his opening tactics based on his experience, as well as some explanation on how his P&A works. By no means am I trying to exaggerate nor oversell anything, I just think it should be prudent as an Ultra supporter for me to emphasize certain pieces of information. That said, I will wait for development from here on out.
 
As much as I'd love to glaze Isshikis skill, I don't think it matters much. Ace has more than 100x AP advantage, throwing hands with him would vaporize Isshiki jop matter what happens.

The real question is, can Ace avoid Isshiki throwing microscopic spikes into his body and expanding them from the inside?
 
Sukunahikona is 10x ishikki speed here, boy there's a lot of stuff he could do to **** with ultra man.


The rods would be too fast for him, can enter his body and instantly resize and deliver mortal wounds, the LS is abysmal so if the rods pin him down he ain't getting back up.

At worst he can seal him in daikokuten.

I don't see ultra man winning this
 
The rods would be too fast for him, can enter his body and instantly resize and deliver mortal wounds, the LS is abysmal so if the rods pin him down he ain't getting back up.
Only problem imo is their durability is awful. With a 100x difference UM could probably just flex his ass cheeks and shatter the rods into powder between them.
At worst he can seal him in daikokuten.

I don't see ultra man winning this
🤷‍♂️
 
Only problem imo is their durability is awful. With a 100x difference UM could probably just flex his ass cheeks and shatter the rods into powder between them.

🤷‍♂️
Yes David, ultraman flex his ass cheeks and shatters ishikki's rods in him. Win analogy
 
Only problem imo is their durability is awful. With a 100x difference UM could probably just flex his ass cheeks and shatter the rods into powder between them.
Funny thing about that

But ass-clenching aside, Ultras do have Aura abilities that lets them break things that binds them. The paralysis (I know it's not mentioned here, but I feel like I should address it) wouldn't really do anything either, as he can break out of Yapool's telekinesis by locking in and deciding to not be affected by it anymore
 
Hey this read as a resistance but it's labeled as, is it just in the wrong section?

 
Hey this read as a resistance but it's labeled as, is it just in the wrong section?

An Ultra (Arc in this case) is capable of interfering with the Pillar’s ability to manipulate/erase Type 2 Concepts with their existence alone (passive part).

An Ultra (Arc in this case) is also capable attacking conceptual barriers that can erase concepts, such as the concept of color.
 
An Ultra (Arc in this case) is capable of interfering with the Pillar’s ability to manipulate/erase Type 2 Concepts with their existence alone (passive part).

An Ultra (Arc in this case) is also capable attacking conceptual barriers that can erase concepts, such as the concept of color.
Idk concept manip that is. The first one seems like conceptual aura but the second is just npi.
 
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