Fundamental aspects of Black Clover / Part 1 of 5 (Mana is a smurf 1-A)

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Hello, I'm creating a blog explaining some of the fundamental and metaphysical aspects of Black Clover, such as mana, soul, life energy, grimoires, magical power, and magic. Since I'll be proposing significant additions, I'll only cover a maximum of two aspects per CRT to facilitate approval and avoid excessiveness.

Proposals
BDE
Conceptual manipulation
Qualitative superiority
Acasualty

Spoiler: BDE type 3

Main argument :
Despite being a major update, the achievement and the statement of it are extremely straightforward and consistent, However, it is necessary to understand that the "qualitative superiority" I am proposing is not based on R>F, but rather on simple.

In chapter 371 we have the following statement by Morris:

IT ISN'T WORKING?! NO-....SHE HAS NO PHYSICAL BODY TO DISMAN-TLE?!!..-HER BODY'S COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED INTO MANA?...THE FLAMES OF RESUR-RECTION....TRAN-SCENDING PHYSICAL FORM...THAT'S OUR TERRI-TORY.....A REALM THAT SUR-PASSES NATURAL LAW!!!

The "measure" of what is and is not a "physical body" in this statement is the magic of Operation Morris, which can dismantle things. The main point is that Morris can dismantle "everything," and this is not flowery language. Morris has always been able to affect all things he has come into contact with, such as, for example...

• intangible concepts that govern destiny, probability, and outcome
• an isolated space of infinite size made of dreams.
• a magic that stops the flow of time
• He would disintegrate the souls that Mereoleona had summoned.
• the layers of the underworld
• loropechika's knowledge

For Morris, the "physical body" is Law, destiny, probability, outcome (causality), concept, souls, knowledge, time, space—basically everything that exists in the "content of the world." This makes the statement of being able to destroy "everything" very consistent
Even though he could destroy everything that exists as "the content of the world," he is unable to dismantle mana because it has no "physical body to dismantle", being transcendental to it. In other words, Mana is an "indivisible power" that contrasts with a "compound power" because it is superior to it, as it cannot be divided in its external effects, no possible multiplication of these effects can reach it, and because it is completely below it, like something that cannot be reached by subdividing a compound into smaller and smaller parts, nor can it be reunited with other similar objects to the point of reaching even the smallest compound (as even geometric points can).as Ultima Reality suggests on this blog

And this should fit into :

BDE TYPE 3

Type 3: Characters who exceed dimensionality through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence. But as stated at the beginning of the page, these beings can still operate on a higher notion of dimensionality that is fundamental to their own nature and reality

Qualitative superiority:

A character that holds a qualitative superiority over lesser things, however, represents a full discrete jump from everything that came before. They reside in a greater mode of existence entirely, being irreducible to anything that lies in the lower state of existence.

Note: This wouldn't make Mereoleona AP 1-A because she hasn't shown the ability to destroy mana, but it can be scaled to her durability, which is consistent according to the Leveling System FAQ page.


Secondary evidence:
There are also many things that support this "transcendent Ontological " notion of mana in the verse.

• Mana does not exist in the sensible world.
• Mana is the ultimate salvation/purification a person achieves upon death.
• The "realm that surpasses natural law" to which Morris refers is described as a perfect/ideal world without flaws(
• Mana is also described as the "ideal form of the human .

Consistency :
There are certain conditions that need to be met for this feat, where a lower-level character achieves a higher level of existence, primarily without R>F.

On the matter of power sources: That would depend on the nature of the power source itself. For example, a common trope in fiction is power sources that, so to speak, are "for the taking," meaning they are naturally self-diffusive and don't offer any resistance whatsoever to being tapped into, as being utilized in such a way is in their nature. Drawing power from such sources is obviously not actually an anti-feat for them being 1-A, especially so if they are depicted as naturally connected to, and united with, the beings that tap into them.

Mana is the source of all magic in Black Clover and also exists inherently within the characters as it is the very "ideal form of the human soul"

Secondly, a 1-A level cannot be attained by a process in which the lower level quantitatively "adds up" to itself to break through into the higher one, due to the total lack of structural continuity between the two; the higher level cannot be attained, nor expressed by, any expansions of the lower one, and therefore things from the latter cannot interfere with the former by means of their own lower existences. Put simply: A non-1-A cannot reach the level of 1-A by appealing to another non-1-A

Mereoleona attains her mana form by developing ultimate magic, which is the process of connecting with the origin of her soul, thus finding her mana.

​

In general, a character that is of a lower reality yet has, e.g. "1-A durability," would be receiving a metaphysical alteration that completely overwrites their own physical attributes. In the case of a cosmology that receives such a rating from Reality-Fiction Transcendences, for instance, say in a situation where the lower reality is a drawing to the higher reality, this alteration would not be the character becoming so materially "tough" that the artist cannot erase their drawing anymore. Rather, it would be an alteration at the level of the drawing itself.

Mereoleona fits this description of "1-A durability" since her physical attributes/characteristics become of a superior level of existence; her body has become mana, which is a transcendent aspect without a physical body.

Conclusion:
Mana is a fundamental aspect of reality that transcends physicality, which fits into our patterns of...
BDE type 3
Qualitative superiority and nature 1-A

Spoiler: Conceptual manipulation type 1

Main argument:

Also in chapter 371 we have this statement about Mereoleona's state of existence:

THE MEN WHO RISKED THEIR LIVES...TAUGHT ME...THE IDEAL SHAPE.......OF THE HUMAN SOUL!!

This statement comes from page 23, which is a continuation of this page here, where the context is about "level of existence," meaning that the word "ideal" refers to something perfect/ethereal and has little to do with idealism.

This is not the first time the concept of "shape of the soul " has been introduced in the work; in chapter 221 we also have this statement by Charlotte.

FORBIDDEN MAGIC INTERFERES WITH THE SHAPE OF YOUR LIFE, AND OF THE WORLD...THE CURSE THAT ACTIVATED WHEN I WAS 18.....CHANGED THE SHAPE OF MY SOUL, THE QUALITY OF MY MAGIC ITSELF.

This statement shows that "shape" is present not only in the soul but also in the world, and altering "shape" affects both the soul and the world itself.

But what would this "shape" be? Well, it's nothing more than mana, and this is supported in several ways in the verse.

When Mereoleona declares that she has attained the "ideal form of the human soul," she is referring to her state of existence at that moment, .

The forbidden magic Charlotte refers to works by corrupting a person's mana, potentially altering their entire nature, as happened with Licht, who transformed from a pure elf into an ancient demon.

"Shape" is also described as the "quality of magic itself," that is, its essential attribute/nature.And what defines the nature/quality of someone's magic is Mana.

When Patry fell into despair and had his mana corrupted like Licht, the quality of his light magic was also altered to demonic light magic.

Mana being the "ideal shape" is also in accordance with the "emanation" system presented in the verse, where mana resides at the origin of souls; the soul is the source of life, spirit/mind, and magic, and it also defines the body.
Mana > soul > mind > body
Charlotte's statement supports this notion of mana, or rather, the quality of someone's magic/soul form being superior to the soul itself.

Morris's situation in chapter 371 also strongly supports this, with the concept of "emanation" making even more sense of his statement that he couldn't destroy Mereoleona because she didn't have a "physical body," which was strange for someone who can even affect concepts. However, this is because even though Morris treated concepts and other abstractions as being "physical," the existence of Mereoleona was abstract/incorporeal when compared to them, as it transcended them.
This makes the BC emanation system look something like this.
Mana > concepts, souls and natural laws > mind > body


This also makes it clear that mana exists on a level even superior to concepts, which makes its abstract aspect quite clear.

In conclusion, mana is the ideal form of the soul and the world, existing as a source of qualities, superior in existence to the reality it governs.

This should fit into




Conceptual manipulation type 1:

1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Secondary evidence:

• Mana is in everything (databook: marque page de grimoire pag 39 William Vegeance ,Translation )
• Mana is a fundamental, invisible aspect.
• Mana is the ideal form/shape of the soul and the world.
• Mana is not only present in the wild in nature but also in the world itself.
• mana is a quality aspect of the verse

Spoiler: Acasualty type 4

Main argument:
This must be the simplest of all additions: Mereoleona transcends the physical body and is beyond natural laws, including the red thread of fate, which defines destiny, probability, and outcome (cause and effect).
Conclusion:
acasualty type 4

I think I've finished everything I could. I hope I've explained all the points clearly and that some active BC supporter can help me with my blog (since English isn't my native language). I apologize for not respecting the condition of not making topics and updates until the end of the work; I have obligations next year that will probably take up all my time. I think I only have the next 30 days free. Today the trailer for the second season of BC came out and it's beautiful; it seems like a promising day.

 

[LiewtiStar]

XD
Transcending physicality is nowhere near 1-A

 

[DaReaperMan]

XD
Transcending physicality is nowhere near 1-A

Nono, just pull out your popcorn and enjoy...

 

[Excellence616]

Get mana above 3-D first

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

XD
Transcending physicality is nowhere near 1-A

According to the BDE page

Type 3: Characters who exceed dimensionality through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence. But as stated at the beginning of the page, these beings can still operate on a higher notion of dimensionality that is fundamental to their own nature and reality.

 

[Rutæhh]

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Planck69 @Elizhaa @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Celestial_Pegasus @Vietthai96

 

[Lycoris4812]

Reddit ah.

 

[LiewtiStar]

According to the BDE page

Yes lacking a physical body isn't a proof of BDE type 3? litteraly explained in the definition you just typed. Also stop using the word "transcending" like it gives automatically a superiority over material composition as a whole. Where did you prove that mana is ontologically superior by reducing the lower world as nonexistent?

 

[Elyartaker]

According to the BDE page

Hello I'm the person who added Type 3.
BDE Type 3 means transcending the notion/concept of dimensionality on a level which they would appear as nothingness to them. They would wholly and fully be transcendental towards the lesser realms and characters.
Evidence you provided for Type 3 feels like a word Salad and not really straightforward. Too vague and can be interpreted in many ways.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Hello I'm the person who added Type 3.
BDE Type 3 means transcending the notion/concept of dimensionality on a level which they would appear as nothingness to them. They would wholly and fully be transcendental towards the lesser realms and characters.
Evidence you provided for Type 3 feels like a word Salad and not really straightforward. Too vague and can be interpreted in many ways.

So Plato's theory of forms isn't at level 1-A? Since it doesn't directly mention dimensionality? And dimensionality isn't just a quantitative and physical aspect of the world, thus being part of Physicality? The texts that claim that 1-A is a "simple (mereological)" form, an omnidivisible aspect, are simply false because they don't mention dimensionality.?

If it seems confusing, you can read chapter 371; it contains practically my entire argument for BDE type 3. If you're still confused, I think it's more a matter of familiarity with the verse. I didn't take anything out of context here; you can ask a supporter of the verse. The only thing I really did was identify terms.

Edit: Perhaps it's a problem with my wording; if you read the CM section and then the BDE section, my intention will become clearer.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Yes lacking a physical body isn't a proof of BDE type 3? litteraly explained in the definition you just typed. Also stop using the word "transcending" like it gives automatically a superiority over material composition as a whole. Where did you prove that mana is ontologically superior by reducing the lower world as nonexistent?

I didn't do that because the qualitative superiority I proposed isn't that of R>F, but rather that of the "simple body".

Edit : I'm sorry, but I never used the word "transcendent" in my comments.

 

[LiewtiStar]

I didn't do that because the qualitative superiority I proposed isn't that of R>F, but rather that of the "simple body".

Edit : I'm sorry, but I never used the word "transcendent" in my comments.

You would still need to show that mana has surpassed the contents of the world, as being superior to physical composition as a whole (BDE type 3 and qualitative superiority ya know). The only things we have here is that:

• Mana transcends physical form
• Mana has surpassed natural law​

Then everything else you showed is open to interpretation, not only that it's too vague but it is absolutely a very WRONG way of giving characters feats don't you think?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I think this is probably 1-A. Disagree with the thread FRA

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

You would still need to show that mana has surpassed the contents of the world, as being superior to physical composition as a whole (BDE type 3 and qualitative superiority ya know). The only things we have here is that:

• Mana transcends physical form
• Mana has surpassed natural law​

Then everything else you showed is open to interpretation, not only that it's too vague but it is absolutely a very WRONG way of giving characters feats don't you think?

This is addressed in the part of Morris's statement that says she doesn't have a "physical body" to dismantle, being "indivisible." The physical body here functions to represent the content of the world, everything that occupies space and time, which can be anything up to the high level 1-B+, The phrase "mana not having a physical body to dismantle" means that it is not part of and is not limited by any quantitative hierarchy (11-C to h1-B+) and cannot be divided beyond itself.

This interpretation is more accurate given the context provided, since "ideal forms" and "perfect world" are stated in the same chapter, referring to mana; in fact, the chapter title is "Immortal Souls." If we interpret it as merely incorporeality, this presents a narrative contradiction because Morris can dismantle everything, even intangible concepts that are incorporeal/abstract by nature.

To say that it's available through personal interpretation doesn't make sense, given that I provided context on how Mereoleona achieved this factor and how much mana is referenced as functioning with Platonic forms.

The statement about transcendence of physical form has little to do with my argument of qualitative superiority; the main point comes from the fact that Mereoleona "doesn't have a physical body to dismantle," which, given that Morris can affect abstract aspects, leaves us with the interpretation that "mana is irreducible beyond itself," which is simply qualitative superiority.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Planck69 @Elizhaa @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Celestial_Pegasus @Vietthai96

I'm busy with a bunch of Christmas stuff. I'll be able to respond in proper after the 25th

 

[LiewtiStar]

This is addressed in the part of Morris's statement that says she doesn't have a "physical body" to dismantle, being "indivisible." The physical body here functions to represent the content of the world, everything that occupies space and time, which can be anything up to the high level 1-B+, The phrase "mana not having a physical body to dismantle" means that it is not part of and is not limited by any quantitative hierarchy (11-C to h1-B+) and cannot be divided beyond itself.

This interpretation is more accurate given the context provided, since "ideal forms" and "perfect world" are stated in the same chapter, referring to mana; in fact, the chapter title is "Immortal Souls." If we interpret it as merely incorporeality, this presents a narrative contradiction because Morris can dismantle everything, even intangible concepts that are incorporeal/abstract by nature.

To say that it's available through personal interpretation doesn't make sense, given that I provided context on how Mereoleona achieved this factor and how much mana is referenced as functioning with Platonic forms.

The statement about transcendence of physical form has little to do with my argument of qualitative superiority; the main point comes from the fact that Mereoleona "doesn't have a physical body to dismantle," which, given that Morris can affect abstract aspects, leaves us with the interpretation that "mana is irreducible beyond itself," which is simply qualitative superiority.

Cool interpretation, not following

 

[SuperNova55555]

Lmao

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

.

.

Upon rereading the thread, I realized that I actually left out Morris's statement about personal interpretation without explaining why it should be considered a qualitative superiority. I was so immersed in the verse and questions 1-A that I ended up thinking the statement alone was sufficient. I apologize for this and thank you for helping me realize it. Could you please re-evaluate the BDE section again?

 

[AyOgUyS]

In chapter 371 we have the following statement by Morris:

The phrase "doesn't have a physical body to dismantle" serves as evidence of "qualitative superiority." "Physical body" refers to anything that occupies space and time, a concept that covers levels 11-C through h1-B+. The fact that Mana "doesn't have a physical body to dismantle" makes it a "simple" aspect that cannot be reduced to anything beyond itself, which is the standard for qualitative superiority within the wiki.

If just lacking a physical body was enough to be 1-A, then all ghosts and abstract characters (and intangible characters) would be 1-A

Secondary evidence:
There are also many things that support this "transcendent" notion of mana in the verse.

• Mana does not exist in the sensible world.
• Mana is the ultimate salvation/purification a person achieves upon death.
• The "realm that surpasses natural law" to which Morris refers is described as a perfect/ideal world without flaws(
• Mana is also described as the "ideal form of the human soul.",Another reference to the theory of forms.

None of this seems like 1-A to me. A few vague references to Platonic Forms isn't solid evidence for 1-A.

Basically, in Black Clover, "shape/form" refers to what Plato's theory of forms describes as forms that exist in the soul and the world, and altering them affects both in a "qualitative" way. It's also an interchangeable term with mana.

You haven't actually proved this

Secondary evidence:

• Mana is in everything (databook: marque page de grimoire pag 39 William Vegeance ,Translation )
• Mana is a fundamental, invisible aspect.
• Mana is the ideal form/shape of the soul and the world.
• Mana is not only present in the wild in nature but also in the world itself.
• mana is a quality aspect of the verse

Manipulation of "universals":
To formulate this point, we need to understand that there are two types of mana in the verse: natural mana (external to the body) and innate mana (internal to the body). A person's innate mana cannot be changed; it neither increases nor decreases. Natural mana, on the other hand, exists in the world within its "area of influence" or object. Although different, the mana within a mage contains similar properties/qualities. This allows the mage to access objects belonging to that same quality present in the mana. They achieve this through the mana method and the mana zone. This simply boils down to the "universal" manipulation of their magical attribute

I'm 99% sure just being the source of everything and being in a lot of places isn't 1-A

• Loropechika can manipulate all the water in the Heart Kingdom with her Mana Zone.
• Yuno can control the winds around him.
• Natch may have control over all nearby shadows.
• Mereoleona can unleash omnidirectional fire at her opponent.

Mana method:

• Radja uses the surrounding winds to create a cloud that unleashes a lightning bolt.
• Loropechika and undine use water from the environment to form the Ludic Sanctuary
• Secre can open any seal with sealing magic.
• Jack can cut all things.
• Dorothy has control over the entire Glamour World, a kingdom made of dreams, with her dream magic.
• Charmy can eat anything using food magic.

This is just them using their abilities, how is this 1-A
I disagree with OP

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

If just lacking a physical body was enough to be 1-A, then all ghosts and abstract characters (and intangible characters) would be 1-A

I know that, the problem is that Morris can dismantle abstractions such as a world composed of dreams, and intangible concepts like destiny. I explained this right below the main argument.

None of this seems like 1-A to me. A few vague references to Platonic Forms isn't solid evidence for 1-A.

Mana is called the "ideal form of the human soul," it is not evidenced.The perfect world is also mentioned, as are the ways in which the world is defined.To be more direct than that would only be possible by quoting Plato, which isn't feasible since he doesn't exist in that universe.

You haven't actually proved this

Mana exists as Platonic forms define the qualities of things; for example, water mana exists in water and defines it, light mana defines light and its qualities/characteristics. Altering mana will alter the aspect it governs.

I'm 99% sure just being the source of everything and being in a lot of places isn't 1-A

Yes, I explained that "universal" manipulation is closely linked to the character's "skill tree".

This is just them using their abilities, how is this 1-A
I disagree with OP

Ok

 

[Orioreeem]

You need to quote the theory in verse or be very explicit about it if you want to rely on it.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I know that, the problem is that Morris can dismantle abstractions such as a world composed of dreams, and intangible concepts like destiny. I explained this right below the main argument.

Mana is called the "ideal form of the human soul," it is not evidenced.The perfect world is also mentioned, as are the ways in which the world is defined.To be more direct than that would only be possible by quoting Plato, which isn't feasible since he doesn't exist in that universe.

Mana exists as Platonic forms define the qualities of things; for example, water mana exists in water and defines it, light mana defines light and its qualities/characteristics. Altering mana will alter the aspect it governs.

Yes, I explained that "universal" manipulation is closely linked to the character's "skill tree".

Yea so none of that automatically means platonic Forms. Not all "ideal perfect things that define stuff" are platonic Forms

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'm... Baffled
I was kinda free so I'll nitpick a few things (apologies, I did so on everything)

Main argument :
Despite being a major update, the achievement and the statement of it are extremely straightforward and consistent.

In chapter 371 we have the following statement by Morris:
The phrase "doesn't have a physical body to dismantle" serves as evidence of "qualitative superiority." "Physical body" refers to anything that occupies space and time, a concept that covers levels 11-C through h1-B+. The fact that Mana "doesn't have a physical body to dismantle" makes it a "simple" aspect that cannot be reduced to anything beyond itself, which is the standard for qualitative superiority within the wiki.

1. Morris is a scientist and as such uses scientific terms, which means that "physical body" for Morris is just that
2. It's not a limitation of Morris's magic that it doesn't affect Mereoleona's "incorporeality"; a weaker version of it was capable of affecting abstractions, concepts, and things without physical substance, and yet it still couldn't dismantle mana.

This is literally just incorporeality, which the BDE page specifically says does not equate to lacking Space and Time.

Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept. Being incorporeal is very different than Intangibility, as an intangible being's body is their true body, it just can't be affected by conventional physical forces. A incorporeal being does not usually have any kind of concrete, defined form, and can appear in many different forms if they wish, though the destruction of these bodies is of little relevance to the entity behind them.

Abstract beings are typically incorporeal.

The fact that they don't have a physical body cuz they exist as mana solidifies that even more.

And from our lovely BDE page:

Note, however, that simply being incorporeal is not sufficient for this ability. The character must specifically not be a part of space at all, while incorporeal beings (e.g. Ghosts) can still have extension in it, despite their lack of bodies.

So no, you ain't qualifying for "lacking space and time" by just lacking a physical body. Otherwise we might as well give most ghosts in fiction BDE now...

Plus we don't assume a hax is Omnipotent. A hax that can only dismantle the physical body naturally doesn't work on a non physical one by extension of No-Limit Fallacy.

You also need to prove that "physicality" in-verse refers to whatever occupies space and time, and that lacking a physical body necessitates the lack of spatio-temporal characteristic either. Linking wikipedia pages for those claims instead of in-verse scans ain't gonna work lol

It's like saying "this verse is Low 1-C because parallel worlds exist" while linking the MWI Wikipedia without any proof of that specific theory in-verse. Extraordinary interpretation requires extraordinary proof.

Secondary evidence:
There are also many things that support this "transcendent" notion of mana in the verse.

• Mana does not exist in the sensible world.

Nice, invisibility and requires enhanced senses to see. Nothing more

• Mana is the ultimate salvation/purification a person achieves upon death.

Okay? Interesting, but nothing substantial. Just means they become mana too.

Also, if I may, can you provide the translation source?

• The "realm that surpasses natural law" to which Morris refers is described as a perfect/ideal world without flaws(

Realm that surpasses law refers to the state/level that character is in. That is, she surpassed the physical level and became incorporeal.

Tbh the very fact that said character is still existing inside that space and interacting with the other humans means it's not BDE3 (1-A). A non 1-A world cannot even contain a 1-A thing.

It's not bde1 either for obvious reasons told above.

What kind of way are you trying to use the ideal world scan as?
It's literally in a context where the character is going to remove stuff like war (flaws) from this world to make it ideal.

• Mana is also described as the "ideal form of the human soul.",Another reference to the theory of forms.

The scan doesn't say Mana...

If you do manage to prove it's referring to mana; great, that goes along with the salvation thing of people returning to mana (as souls) lol
Interesting but nothing scale worthy.

There are certain conditions that need to be met for this feat, where a lower-level character achieves a higher level of existence, primarily without R>F.

Mana is the source of all magic in Black Clover and also exists inherently within the characters as it is the very "ideal form of the human soul"
Mereoleona is able to become mana by developing ultimate magic, which is the process of
Although a certain amount of "natural mana" is needed to use supreme magic, this only appears as a necessary condition/factor; having a large amount of mana does not result in supreme magic. I plan to better formulate the relationship between (innate) mana and (natural) mana (from the world) in the conceptual manipulation type 1 session below.
Mereoleona fits this description of "1-A durability" since her physical attributes/characteristics become of a superior level of existence; her body has become mana, which is a transcendent aspect without a physical body.

Conclusion:
Mana is a fundamental aspect of reality that transcends physicality, which fits into our patterns of...

How much is this man trying to milk two metaphorical wording scans...

Yeah no, I'm not seeing anything even close to BDE here, to say nothing of BDE3. Not even BDE1.
Just the mana form existing inside the world and interacting with others (such as punching other character) disqualifies any qualitative superiority from scans that weren't even BDE to begin with.

Plus, mana "floats in the air"... I don't need to mention how big an anti feat that is for BDE of any type, to say nothing of qualitative superiority.

Main argument:
Note: "Shape" here should be translated as "form," it makes more sense in the context in which it was presented.

As also shown in chapter 371, in the sequences on pages 22 and 23, mana is also the "ideal shape/form of the human soul," but the term "shape/form" was introduced earlier in the manga, when Yami goes to seek answers about forbidden magic and demons at the Blue Roses HQ in chapter 221, we have the following statement from Charlotte.
To understand more context about how this shape/form alteration works, on the reverse side we can see how forbidden/underworld magic works.

It occurs simply by corrupting a person's mana, potentially altering its properties and nature, for example, turning a pure elf into an ancient devil, pure hatred and resentment, or transforming an elf with light magic capable of absolute light speed into a dark elf with black light magic capable of moving even at FTL

Basically, in Black Clover, "shape/form" refers to what Plato's theory of forms describes as forms that exist in the soul and the world, and altering them affects both in a "qualitative" way. It's also an interchangeable term with mana.

Secondary evidence:

• Mana is in everything (databook: marque page de grimoire pag 39 William Vegeance ,Translation )
• Mana is a fundamental, invisible aspect.
• Mana is the ideal form/shape of the soul and the world.
• Mana is not only present in the wild in nature but also in the world itself.
• mana is a quality aspect of the verse

Manipulation of "universals":
To formulate this point, we need to understand that there are two types of mana in the verse: natural mana (external to the body) and innate mana (internal to the body). A person's innate mana cannot be changed; it neither increases nor decreases. Natural mana, on the other hand, exists in the world within its "area of influence" or object. Although different, the mana within a mage contains similar properties/qualities. This allows the mage to access objects belonging to that same quality present in the mana. They achieve this through the mana method and the mana zone. This simply boils down to the "universal" manipulation of their magical attribute, for example:
MANA ZONE :

• Loropechika can manipulate all the water in the Heart Kingdom with her Mana Zone.
• Yuno can control the winds around him.
• Natch may have control over all nearby shadows.
• Mereoleona can unleash omnidirectional fire at her opponent.

Mana method:

• Radja uses the surrounding winds to create a cloud that unleashes a lightning bolt.
• Loropechika and undine use water from the environment to form the Ludic Sanctuary

Others:
Magic as a whole has always been shown to be a "universal" manipulation within the verse, with the character's skill tree allowing you to evolve a certain type of magic into anything that embodies that quality, be it a common physical substance or even an abstract concept that defines the laws of the world. An example of this is Vanessa, who has thread magic and has gained the ability to manipulate even the red thread of fate.There are other examples of universal manipulation in the verse.

• Secre can open any seal with sealing magic.
• Jack can cut all things.
• Dorothy has control over the entire Glamour World, a kingdom made of dreams, with her dream magic.
• Charmy can eat anything using food magic.

Note: One thing I wanted to make clear is that the amount or size of someone's mana has little to do with their attributes. Although things like mana zones can increase perception and speed, magical power attributes like AP, DC and even speed are more connected to the nature of someone's magic than any quantitative factor of mana. This is something that has already been accepted in the various Dorothy High 3-A topics (1,2), and it was only reinforced during the work, for example, characters like August Kira, the king of Clover, who has a great mana but no combat attributes, or the entire FTL scale of the verse being thrown into limbo with the return of light magic in the last arc. We also have several characters with unknown AP (1,2,3,4) because magic is difficult to assess due to its nature.

In all honesty, the only thing useful here is that "shape of the world" scan and "destiny" scan. I can see CM2 there, but not CM1... But again, here's the catch:

In the shape of the world scan, specifically "forbidden magic" is said to interfere with that. The character isn't generalizing it to all magic

In the destiny scan again, the character is shocked, probably because the magic is specifical in one or form.

If you want to prove that even a normal water ball magic is CM, you'll need extraordinary evidence of it being so.

Also, you can't equate something called "Form" to something as huge as "Plato's Forms" with just that word mixed with "ideal". In fact, I'm pretty sure Idealism does not qualify for CM at all for all that matters:

Non-Qualifying Concepts​

Concepts that are not abstract, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. Such concepts exist strictly as non-abstract objects and hold no power over anything whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind.

And, for all you might claim, being non-physical doesn't necessitate to abstractions. We distinguish between non corporeal and abstract things enough for them to have different pages.

Main argument:
This must be the simplest of all additions: Mereoleona transcends the physical body and is beyond natural laws, including the red thread of fate, which defines destiny, probability, and outcome (cause and effect).

Secondary evidence:

• Mereoleona cannot be dismantled after becoming mana.

And it is as easily to debunk as how simple you claim it to be.

A character that becomes Mana can still do causal actions like punching other characters.

• People without mana cannot have any kind of interaction with mana.

This just gives mana invisibility, not acausality. It doesn't say they can't interact with it, just that Asta can't see it.

Yeah, nothing in this CRT makes sense lol

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

.

You made me reflect on something; the "scale" of "physicality" in this statement is Morris. Everything he manages to "dismantle" is what contains a "physical body." The point is that Morris can dismantle "everything," and this is not flowery language. Morris has shown himself capable of dismantling many things, such as:

• intangible concepts that govern destiny, probability, and outcome
• an isolated space of infinite size made of dreams.
• a magic that stops the flow of time
• He would disintegrate the souls that Mereoleona had summoned.
• the layers of the underworld
• loropechika's knowledge

For Morris, the "physical body" is Law, destiny, probability, outcome (causality), concept, souls, knowledge, time, space—basically everything that exists in the "content of the world." This makes the statement of being able to destroy "everything" very consistent and also makes the statement of "not having a physical body" a declaration of qualitative superiority.

You would still need to show that mana has surpassed the contents of the world, as being superior to physical composition as a whole (BDE type 3 and qualitative superiority ya know). The only things we have here is that:

• Mana transcends physical form
• Mana has surpassed natural law​

Then everything else you showed is open to interpretation, not only that it's too vague but it is absolutely a very WRONG way of giving characters feats don't you think?

The part above makes sense in relation to the "content of the world" you referred to?

In all honesty, the only thing useful here is that "shape of the world" scan and "destiny" scan. I can see CM2 there, but not CM1... But again, here's the catch:

In the shape of the world scan, specifically "forbidden magic" is said to interfere with that. The character isn't generalizing it to all magic

In the destiny scan again, the character is shocked, probably because the magic is specifical in one or form.

If you want to prove that even a normal water ball magic is CM, you'll need extraordinary evidence of it being so.

Also, you can't equate something called "Form" to something as huge as "Plato's Forms" with just that word mixed with "ideal". In fact, I'm pretty sure Idealism does not qualify for CM at all for all that matters:

And, for all you might claim, being non-physical doesn't necessitate to abstractions. We distinguish between non corporeal and abstract things enough for them to have different pages.

I think you missed the part about "shape" being the "quality of magic itself." Forbidden magic "alters/modifies" the form of the soul and the world; the type of shape manipulation others would have would be similar to a character manipulating the concept of fire to manipulate fire.

Ideal forms, which are transcendental and belong to a perfect world beyond the natural laws of the world, are an accurate description of Plato's forms.

And it is as easily to debunk as how simple you claim it to be.

A character that becomes Mana can still do causal actions like punching other characters.

That makes sense, but it could be type 4 then.

The other arguments don't make sense. I think that with the little time you have, you must have skipped a lot of what's in the OP. I only questioned the possibility of it not being incorporeality because Morris showed he was capable of affecting incorporeal aspects before, and it didn't make sense that he couldn't affect them later when his magic was extremely stronger.
Edit: I'm not proposing AP 1-A, but rather a state of existence. Mereoleona reaching this level of existence isn't reflecting her AP, but she fits the "durability 1-A" standards because her physical attributes (body) became mana, and mana is a source of power from the verse.

 

[Worthless]

I know that, the problem is that Morris can dismantle abstractions such as a world composed of dreams, and intangible concepts like destiny. I explained this right below the main argument

Mana is simply a different type of intangibility than any of those, and layered intangibility is a thing. Also, how are you going to explain Sacred Mana Domination? It’s a spell that disrupts the mana within it through space warping

 

[AyOgUyS]

Mana is simply a different type of intangibility than any of those, and layered intangibility is a thing. Also, how are you going to explain Sacred Mana Domination? It’s a spell that disrupts the mana within it through space warping

Yep

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

 

[Nierre]

with all due respect, how someone could read black clover and believe the verse is 1-A is baffling to me.

Strongly disagree with this thread for reasons stated.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

This thread in a nutshell

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

with all due respect, how someone could read black clover and believe the verse is 1-A is baffling to me.

Strongly disagree with this thread for reasons stated.

The same disbelief occurred when God of War was first proposed at the low 2-C level, was rejected, and then accepted with the exact same arguments 2 years later (just a curiosity).

There was no stated reason why I didn't respond, and I really want to discuss this. LiewtiStar said I needed to prove transcendence of the "content of the world." I provided more context and would like an answer, not for the 1-A classification, but to understand what kind of ability it is that makes you more incorporeal than laws, concepts, souls, space, time, etc., and defines the very "forms" of the world.

 

[Shar122]

I think you missed the part about "shape" being the "quality of magic itself." Forbidden magic "alters/modifies" the form of the soul and the world; the type of shape manipulation others would have would be similar to a character manipulating the concept of fire to manipulate fire.

Ideal forms, which are transcendental and belong to a perfect world beyond the natural laws of the world, are an accurate description of Plato's forms.

No, you need a direct statement that conveys that platonism in the verse, here in vsbw, we don't equate concept to be platonic, by that logic, it is ok to apply every conceptual hax users to be 1-A just because they can manipulate concept of darkness etc.

Being beyond physicality is vague, being intangible, non-corporeal etc. Are not necessary 1-A without much evidence, even void of nothingness are not 1-A by default, but only they are 1-A if they encompass and is vaster than reality in a qualitative manner, akin to an imagery within reality; being lesser than a drop of water compared to the whole ocean, which In a context like this, the void possesses qualitative superiority

Morris can dismantle "everything,"

This is AP, destroying anything doesn't say much, nor it is qualitative superior in nature... Nor how it outranks everything.

Intangible concepts

All This doesn't say much.. It's not even stated as "concepts.."

that govern destiny, probability, and outcome

This does not say about probability, only future and fate, This is fate manipulation. Also nothing about qualitative superiority.

- an isolated space of infinite size made of dreams.

Doesn't say anything about 1-A, being a dream world of infinite size doesn't mean that much really.

- a magic that stops the flow of time

This is Time manipulation

- He would disintegrate the souls that Mereoleona had summoned.

This is just another hax, unrelated to qualitative superiority again.

- the layers of the underworld,

loropechika's knowledge

Nothing that conveys qualitative superiority or anything... The scan doesn't say anything about layers of the underworld, or even the "layers" being qualitative in nature that dwarfs material existence into utter insignificance, like what astral said, extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence.

From what I've seen, no this doesn't qualify Also going for 1-A durability dismantles the argument even further, since 1-A being's parameters are tied to their qualitative superior nature as existence, and harnessing the the whole fledged of qualitative power will boosts all your stats should give you 1-A in all aspects—you can't be qualitatively inferior in your Ap while qualitatively superior in your durability via accumulating a 1-A power source, unless the verse established a rule or a direct statement of sorts otherwise. (Like LOTM).

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

This is AP, destroying anything doesn't say much, nor it is qualitative superior in nature... Nor how it outranks everything.

Morris is "destroying" everything with his "operation" ability that allows him to disintegrate anything he touches.

You misinterpreted that comment. The qualitative superiority doesn't stem from Morris affecting those aspects; that's secondary evidence for Morris's claim of being able to destroy "everything," which in this context means "the content of the world" (unless you're proposing a 2-B classification for Morris), which is the "physical body" that Morris can dismantle. The qualitative superiority comes from the fact that mana cannot be dismantled because it transcends the physical body, that is, "the content of the world."

 

[AyOgUyS]

The qualitative superiority comes from the fact that mana cannot be dismantled because it transcends the physical body, that is, "the content of the world."

Transcend just means superior to :/

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Transcend just means superior to :/

Being superior to the "content of the world" to the point of being "inexpressible" is our standard for 1-A.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Being superior to the "content of the world" to the point of being "inexpressible" is our standard for 1-A.

"(of a feeling) too strong to be described or conveyed in words."

I think that a difference of a trillion is too strong to be described so clearly when Eggman said the Death Egg Robot was a trillion times greater than his past mechs it scales the Sonic cast to 1-A

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

"(of a feeling) too strong to be described or conveyed in words."

I think that a difference of a trillion is too strong to be described so clearly when Eggman said the Death Egg Robot was a trillion times greater than his past mechs it scales the Sonic cast to 1-A

This may be a difference from our native language; when I said "inexpressible" I meant "indivisible," and I don't know how "feelings" can be compared to "content of the world."

 

[Mommyleona]

help

 

[AyOgUyS]

This may be a difference from our native language; when I said "inexpressible" I meant "indivisible," and I don't know how "feelings" can be compared to "content of the world."

You can't divide 0 can you?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump