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Fundamental aspects of Black Clover / Part 1 of 5 (Mana is a smurf 1-A)

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Does her body become mana, yet not in control of all mana in existence, where she's a part and not a whole?

If so, I disagree with the 1-A.
 
Mana is simply a different type of intangibility than any of those, and layered intangibility is a thing. Also, how are you going to explain Sacred Mana Domination? It’s a spell that disrupts the mana within it through space warping
Mana is a source of power available to all characters (except Asta and Liebe) in Black Clover that can be used in any way you evolve, and is shown with the spell "Spatial Magic: Spatial Mana Domination," which is the demonic version of the spell "Spatial Magic Sacred Devil Control" If mana simply doesn't want to be manipulated by you, it will do so, as was the case with Yuno, where mana simply escaped Zenon's control because it likes Yuno.

I also don't need to mention the inconsistency of your interpretation of the magic system, because it presupposes that Space magic > mana, but if spatial magic doesn't come from mana like all the magic in the verse, where does it come from?
 
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Mana is a source of power available to all characters (except Asta and Liebe) in Black Clover that can be used in any way you evolve, and is shown with the spell "Spatial Magic: Spatial Mana Domination," which is the demonic version of the spell "Spatial Magic Sacred Devil Control" If mana simply doesn't want to be manipulated by you, it will do so, as was the case with Yuno, where mana simply escaped Zenon's control because it likes Yuno.

I also don't need to mention the inconsistency of your interpretation of the magic system, because it presupposes that Space magic > mana, but if spatial magic doesn't come from mana like all the magic in the verse, where does it come from?
You said a whole bunch of nothing. Space warping can affect and disrupt mana. Time manipulation can also affect and accelerate mana. Both of these show that it is still subject to and bound by spacetime itself, contrary to your BS. Don't cook again
 
The same disbelief occurred when God of War was first proposed at the low 2-C level, was rejected, and then accepted with the exact same arguments 2 years later (just a curiosity).
Why does every CRT that go bad always defer to other verses? Like brodie God of War gained new information irrelevant to Black Clover that granted them their current scaling.

Disagree FRA and also, even if everything here was granted as valid, this latest chapter turned Mereo back to her physical form using time magic. That is already an auto-disqualifier for 1-A scaling overall, not just BDE type 3 because time is meant to be irrelevant to said being due to it being a dimension. If time has any relevance, the BDE is at best Type 1, which scales nowhere.
 
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You said a whole bunch of nothing. Space warping can affect and disrupt mana. Time manipulation can also affect and accelerate mana. Both of these show that it is still subject to and bound by spacetime itself, contrary to your BS. Don't cook again
This is not a limitation because mana is a "source of power" that is naturally given without resistance to be accessed; the FAQ page clearly states that this is not a limitation.
On the matter of power sources: That would depend on the nature of the power source itself. For example, a common trope in fiction is power sources that, so to speak, are "for the taking," meaning they are naturally self-diffusive and don't offer any resistance whatsoever to being tapped into, as being utilized in such a way is in their nature. Drawing power from such sources is obviously not actually an anti-feat for them being 1-A, especially so if they are depicted as naturally connected to, and united with, the beings that tap into them.
Mana can be used to manipulate time and space because it's part of its nature and offers no resistance whatsoever. This is clearly shown in the case of Yuno vs. Zenon, where mana can simply resist it and there's nothing else that can be done about it.
 
Yeah completely disagree for obvious reasons as said above.
No reason was given for the new arguments.
Why does every CRT that go bad always defer to other verses? Like brodie God of War gained new information irrelevant to Black Clover that granted them their current scaling.

Disagree FRA and also, even if everything here was granted as valid, this latest chapter turned Mereo back to her physical form using time magic. That is already an auto-disqualifier for 1-A scaling overall, not just BDE type 3 because time is meant to be irrelevant to said being due to it being a dimension. If time has any relevance, the BDE is at best Type 1, which scales nowhere.
This does not disqualify me, as I explained above.
 
Okay, but I'd like to know what the contradictions are in the narrative?
Listen, if everyone else didn't convince you, what can I do?

What I can say is that if we did take everything at face value and this did pass.... nobody would scale to it, and it wouldn't make anyone a smurf.
 
The same disbelief occurred when God of War was first proposed at the low 2-C level, was rejected, and then accepted with the exact same arguments 2 years later (just a curiosity).
Let's not use whataboutism here, whatever your intentions may be. GoW has had multiple CRTs and boatloads of new evidence (Entire new games, novels, guide books, art books and interviews) getting it to where it is now (Even ignoring the Low 1-C stuff) and multiple staff looked over the CRTs and accepted them. They are not remotely comparable.

I'd suggest people not do this kind of comparison or throw pot-shots at other verses without legitimate proof to justify upgrades or downgrades. If you don't like the ratings (Low or high), make CRTs for those verses, but don't go about poisoning the well in other verse threads.
 
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No reason was given for the new arguments.

This does not disqualify me, as I explained above.
Your explanation doesn't adress how Julius' temporality straight up reverses the "transcendent" form (i.e. you didn't actually read what I said), meaning the form is comparable to dimensions instead of being beyond dimensions. Saying that "Oh but Time Magic comes from Mana so it's not an anti-feat" leads to circular reasoning bub.

I will re-iterate the BDE3 definition that you yourself sent:
Type 3: Characters who exceed dimensionality through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence. But as stated at the beginning of the page, these beings can still operate on a higher notion of dimensionality that is fundamental to their own nature and reality
If Mereoleona's transcendence over natural law included all contents of lower reality, she wouldn't have been reversed by Julius' Time Magic because she'd be unreachable from him.

Also, Mana takes up volume so that's already ggs
 
The same disbelief occurred when God of War was first proposed at the low 2-C level, was rejected, and then accepted with the exact same arguments 2 years later (just a curiosity).
The entire Norse saga released between the first universal upgrade attempt and now. The verse very much did not use the same arguments.
There was no stated reason why I didn't respond, and I really want to discuss this. LiewtiStar said I needed to prove transcendence of the "content of the world." I provided more context and would like an answer, not for the 1-A classification, but to understand what kind of ability it is that makes you more incorporeal than laws, concepts, souls, space, time, etc., and defines the very "forms" of the world.
And for the rest of this thread, this is very much not any flavor of Tier 1. Taking nebulous statements and running wild with them isn't anything new to this site. Disagree.
 
The chapter about "mana rewinding with temporal magic" that Saqphire pointed out will officially be released on the 4th in Manga Plus. I'd like the topic to remain open until then.
 
Your explanation doesn't adress how Julius' temporality straight up reverses the "transcendent" form (i.e. you didn't actually read what I said), meaning the form is comparable to dimensions instead of being beyond dimensions. Saying that "Oh but Time Magic comes from Mana so it's not an anti-feat" leads to circular reasoning bub.

I will re-iterate the BDE3 definition that you yourself sent:

If Mereoleona's transcendence over natural law included all contents of lower reality, she wouldn't have been reversed by Julius' Time Magic because she'd be unreachable from him.

Also, Mana takes up volume so that's already ggs
Only her physical body was rewound, not the Indicius that affected her mana. The only thing we see is Mereoleona with her physical body again. And time magic is a forbidden magic described as being able to affect the "shape of the soul and the world." Even if Julius could affect mana with time magic, it's an inherent characteristic of time magic, not that mana is limited by time. Morris's feat of dismantling Neverland, which is also temporal manipulation, happened in the same arc, one chapter before the start of the fight with Mereoleona.
I have no problem with God of War; on the contrary, I completely agree with the current classification on the wiki. My comment never compared the situation of BC with God of War, but only disbelief. I didn't do it with malicious intent, much less to incite hatred from moderators as is happening now. What would I gain by doing that? I have no power here and would prefer that only my topic be properly evaluated.
 
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Damn, nothing in OP is anything relating to R>F at all. This is just taking scans out of context or wanking. Even if we call the R>F experts, they would say the same thing.
 
Damn, nothing in OP is anything relating to R>F at all. This is just taking scans out of context or wanking. Even if we call the R>F experts, they would say the same thing.
It is a qualitative superiority through "simple ". it does not have R>F.

I need specialists in mereology 🥲

Edit :I also need you to be more specific regarding "taking scans out of context." I can assure you that nothing here is out of context; you can ask any supporter of the verse as well. I also made an effort to bring scans with direct statements that don't leave room for interpretation.
 
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R>F literally is qualitative superiority tho
I know that R>F is qualitative superiority, but it's not the only way to achieve qualitative superiority. The OP is based on qualitative superiority according to the FAQ page, which describes it as superiority of nature over inferior reality, for example, being "irreducible" to anything beyond itself, differentiating it from quantitative superiority where an H1-B+ reality is composed of and can be reduced to an inaccessible number of 11-B.
 
I know that R>F is qualitative superiority, but it's not the only way to achieve qualitative superiority. The OP is based on qualitative superiority according to the FAQ page, which describes it as superiority of nature over inferior reality, for example, being "irreducible" to anything beyond itself, differentiating it from quantitative superiority where an H1-B+ reality is composed of and can be reduced to an inaccessible number of 11-B.
I mean you still haven't proven that anything is qualitative
 
I mean you still haven't proven that anything is qualitative
In the OP , Morris can dismantle everything that exists as "world content" (lower reality), but he cannot dismantle mana because it transcends what Morris considers "physical body" (all world content) and belongs to a realm that surpasses natural laws. The CM part gives a greater context about how mana is present in the verse; it's based on an emanationist cosmology with mana being the very ideal quality/form of the world.
 
In the OP , Morris can dismantle everything that exists as "world content" (lower reality), but he cannot dismantle mana because it transcends what Morris considers "physical body" (all world content) and belongs to a realm that surpasses natural laws. The CM part gives a greater context about how mana is present in the verse; it's based on an emanationist cosmology with mana being the very ideal quality/form of the world.
This is not qualitative. It's at best non-smurf 4-D.
 
R>F is not necessary for 1-A; it is necessary to have a superior nature of existence (qualitative superiority) that is not quantitative (divisible or added to) an inferior reality.
That qualitative superiority needed for 1A is R>F, no R>F superiority = No 1A. BDE Type 3 etc are just ways to show R>F, it literally says 'Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality.' in the explanation for BDE Type 3.

And I don't see any qualitative superiority in here, just the lack of a physical form, so she's gotten Incorporeality, there is no superiority over space or time required for BDE Type 3, and there is also no ontological transcendence either.

There is already a major anti-feat of mana existing and floating around in the air, you attempted to say that was not the case by contradicting other scans (here and here’ literally says it is floating in the air and exists in the same world) with the use of another scan (over here, that says Yuno can now 'see' mana flowing in the world) and trying to misinterpret Yuno going 'beyond' as mana is transcendent, which is just insane tbh.

It literally said wind mages like Yuno are especially good at detecting mana, and Yuno that had lost all five of his senses and was back up against with a wall went beyond the usual detection of mana and could now recognise its flow.

So it's just another another another panel showing how mana is present in their world, not one that suddenly goes against what was already established.


And using the statement of a power obsessed crazed lunatic that keeps flexing the power they just got with nothing to back it up is just laughable. He's delusional.
 
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That qualitative superiority needed for 1A is R>F, no R>F superiority = No 1A. BDE Type 3 etc are just ways to show R>F, it literally says 'Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality.' in the explanation for BDE Type 3.

And I don't see any qualitative superiority in here, just the lack of a physical form, so she's gotten Incorporeality, there is no superiority over space or time required for BDE Type 3, and there is also no ontological transcendence either.
To transcend ontologically is to be superior in nature and has nothing to do with R>F. R>F is a good argument as an analogy for qualitative superiority; the FAQ page never suggests that only R>F is qualitative superiority, but rather anything that is outside a quantitative system and surpasses it.
Q: What is "qualitative superiority"?
A: To put it simply: It is superiority over lesser things that involves no element of quantity, or amount, in any manner whatsoever. It, instead, hinges entirely on the nature of the character's existence and ontology. In general, all characters with such superiority over lesser things are 1-A.

To better understand the concept, consider the fact that all tiers from 11-C to Low 1-A can ultimately be bridged together by summing up smaller things, and can likewise be decomposed down into these smaller constituents. For example, a mathematical space with an inaccessible cardinal's worth of dimensions (Well into High 1-B+) is reducible to the individual elements comprising it, each of which is a 0-dimensional point.

An example of the same principle can be seen in the Tychonoff cube: Given the unit interval [0,1] (A 1-dimensional object) and an arbitrary cardinal number κ, one can represent by [0,1]^κ the generalization of the unit interval to κ-many dimensions. In English: If we had a line segment of length 1, and multiplied it by itself, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of times, the result would be a Tychonoff cube of inaccessibly-many dimensions. A 11-B object can be multiplied by itself in order to net a High 1-B+ object. This continuity between the two, where a larger object can be expressed as a composition of many smaller objects, is what makes the gap between these tiers quantitative.

A character that holds a qualitative superiority over lesser things, however, represents a full discrete jump from everything that came before. They reside in a greater mode of existence entirely, being irreducible to anything that lies in the lower state of existence.

This inaccessibility possessed by qualitatively superior characters and realms can also be expressed in terms of sheer ontology, generally speaking. That is to say: They are fundamentally different from the nature of the lower reality, and this different nature is precisely the source of their superiority over it. Since their "otherness" is identical to their transcendence, no expansion or extension of the lower reality and anything in it can possibly attain to them, as long as it maintains its particular nature. Put it simply: They are as powerful as they are alien.


There is already a major anti-feat of mana existing and floating around in the air, you attempted to say that was not the case by contradicting other scans (here and here’ literally says it is floating in the air and exists in the same world) with the use of another scan (over here, that says Yuno can now 'see' mana flowing in the world) and trying to misinterpret Yuno going 'beyond' as mana is transcendent, which is just insane tbh.

The phrase "mana floating in the air" is somewhat redundant; the word "floating" can be used both metaphorically and literally, and in this context it's simply a way of expressing that mana is present in that place. The FAQ page itself uses the same term when explaining why things like collective unconscious minds wouldn't be an anti-effect for 1-A.

Edit :I also used this, which is a scan from the author saying that "mana exists in the air." I never tried to hide that because what matters is the context, not the nominalism. Also, Licht is a sword magic user, not a wind/air magic user; his telekinesis works by manipulating mana in the environment, similar to the Force in Star Wars.

Edit 2: I also added the scan you said I omitted from Yuno.

Furthermore, since the "lack of continuity" that exists between the higher level and the lower one is structural, and not causal, there can potentially be more unorthodox ways of bypassing the 1-A barrier. For example: Things that don't have anything to do with raw power, but just a general transfer/exposure of information between one level and another. Another example could be cosmologies where a higher level originates from the thoughts/beliefs/etc of inhabitants of a lower level; while these thoughts literally originating within the lower reality and then somehow "floating away" to form a higher one would be a disqualifier, no anti-feat is present if the verse has it so these operations simply already exist in a higher reality.
And mana doesn't exist merely as a transcendent aspect independent of the world; it also exists and is present in the things it governs, as is the case with Platonic forms, which are perfect and immutable but exist in imperfect objects because they are part of it. The "emanation" factor is very present in the verse; the part about CM explains this.
And using the statement of a power obsessed crazed lunatic that keeps flexing the power they just got with nothing to back it up is just laughable. He's delusional.
Morris is a scientist who has studied magic for years without any moral limitations, experimenting even on children and killing many along the way. He also possesses all the accumulated knowledge of Loropechika over 500 years, who is considered an "omniscient" queen because of this. He is also recognized by Lucifero, a supreme demon who has existed for over 500 years and used Morris's magic and knowledge to alter the entire Qlitphord tree to free himself sooner. If you believe he is a lunatic who cannot assess his own magic, it is up to you to prove it.
 
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I found the reason why this idea of a 1-A mana system came to me; it started when I read this Ultima Reality blog, which is incomplete but provides a good foundation and a more detailed explanation of the leveling system FAQ.

The part that caught my attention the most is "On the Simple," where Ultima explains what simplicity is and how it is a quintessential "1-A" element.

On the Simple
Needless to say, "Simple" in philosophy does not mean "Easy to understand." Rather, it refers to something which has no parts, or in other words, something that has no elements of itself that add up to a larger whole, and are thus non-identical with this whole.

In the context of the Tiering System, this notion of simplicity obviously plays a large role as one climbs up the rungs. 1-A is effectively simplicity vis-à-vis matter and spacetime, and Tier 0 at the far end is the limit case of "simplicity" itself, insofar as it surpasses any ontological distinctions and divisions. Further down is an examination of the attributes of simple beings, and of how they relate to certain concepts both from this community and from everyday thought.

Transcendence and the Simple
Although we have already spoken of "superiority that is not rooted in accidental qualities," and indeed it is commonplace in this community to refer to "superiority over dimensionality" and things of the like, on what exactly this superiority in power consists might not exactly be obvious at a glance. After all: From Tier 10 to 3, the standard used to quantify power is mass-energy, and afterwards, it is size and volume. What exactly, then, formally constitutes a superiority over "size" itself?

To figure out an answer to this question, it is first needed to establish what "power" is, or at least to establish a general account of power around which all the others are centered, and for all intents and purposes, such a general account is to be found most properly in causal power, which is to say: Power is the ability to produce effects, and more specifically, to subordinate some object to oneself through coercion. Destroying a thing, bringing it out of nothing, supernaturally distorting it, and any action of that sort falls under this umbrella.

In that sense, power is greater than that to which it is applied insofar as it cannot be exhausted by it. For example: A character who can obliterate a large star can also obliterate the Earth, but this latter act is something that their full capacities outstrip by quite a bit, and therefore they are ultimately in excess of it. However, because all such acts are ultimately bound to composite objects and all composites are reducible to their parts, there is also a direct proportionality between them and that which they can affect, so that the gap between the two is not utterly impassable even in the lesser object's own terms: Present the hypothetical character above with 10 x 100¹⁰⁰ copies of the Earth, and their power will not avail much.

Another way to phrase this observation is as follows: The power of a character is commensurate with something inasmuch as it is divisible, and therefore reducible, to it. Even infinitely large objects do not escape this dilemma, as they, too, can be expressed as merely sums of smaller objects. Infinite sums, to be sure, but nevertheless unions of things that are individually lesser than themselves.

From this, a corollary arises: The less a power is able to be divided into what is lesser than itself, the less proportion there exists between the two, and the greater the power is in comparison. As such, a power that has full coercion over a given scope of existence, and also is completely unable to be divided down into it, is greater than power that has only the former at its disposal. Bluntly speaking: Indivisible power is greater than composite power. And so we have our definition of "superiority to dimensionality": Power which influences all material composites, but is itself not divisible or reducible to any of them.

Indeed, indivisible power stands to composite power in only two ways: Firstly as utterly above it, and this is the case with any being that has, at least, the intrinsic potency to subordinate composites to itself, and this naturally follows from the fact that, as the power is not able to be divided into its external effects, no possible multiplication of these effects can attain to it, either. Secondly, as utterly below it, as something that can neither be attained by sub-dividing a composite into increasingly smaller parts nor able to be put together with other objects of its like as to attain to even the least composite (As even geometrical points can).

From there, however, further distinctions can be made: It is conceivable to have a being whose essence is non-composite and indivisible, but whose power is not. This would entail that this being's power is merely an accident of it, not rooted in its essence and therefore something that could, in principle, be taken away or given up altogether, without harm to the being's overall nature.

On the other hand, it is also possible to conceive of a character whose power is something that flows directly from its essence, as something inseparable from it. For example, a being that is non-dimensional, and whose lack of dimensionality causes it to be superior to all spacetime-bound objects. In that case, the power of this being would not be accidental so much as, as it were, co-essential with it, as something that cannot be taken away without meddling with its nature. Beings of this sort are, in effect, 1-A par excellence.
In short, in my own way, Última explains that qualitative superiority is an "indivisible power," unlike quantitative superiority, which is a "composite power." That's why, in the first version of the OP, I thought Morris's statement that "mana didn't have a physical body to be dismantled because it was transcendental to physical form" would be sufficient for qualitative superiority, and I didn't even bother to provide the proper context on how the "physical body" was related to the "content of the world/physicality" (I apologize for that).
 
Morris can dismantle everything that exists as "world content" (lower reality)
Even this "everything" has limitations because he can’t actually interact with time and space itself, only with magic that manipulates them. And honestly, you can probably say the same thing about the scene where fate magic gets negated by his, but it sucks because you won’t agree to that. Human brain is just so weird tbh always ignoring things that contradict its beliefs while genuinely believing its own BS.
 
To transcend ontologically is to be superior in nature and has nothing to do with R>F. R>F is a good argument as an analogy for qualitative superiority; the FAQ page never suggests that only R>F is qualitative superiority, but rather anything that is outside a quantitative system and surpasses it.
The requirements for BDE Type 3 are not fulfilled as there is a lack of being 'ontologically superior to all contents of the lower reality' as mana literally exists in its space.
The phrase "mana floating in the air" is somewhat redundant; the word "floating" can be used both metaphorically and literally, and in this context it's simply a way of expressing that mana is present in that place.
That is one of the scans which is literally what the character's are saying, it is literally floating in the air, I sent another scan of it being visible floating in the air and another where it was dense enough for a character to stand on. Simply being in that space is an anti-feat for 1A as it proves that they have not ontologically surpassed all contents (as they are in its space).

The scan you just sent from the QnA says that mana is something that is invisible and floating in the air, which is another anti-feat, that only qualifies it for the abilities of invisibility and flight.
And mana doesn't exist merely as a transcendent aspect independent of the world; it also exists and is present in the things it governs
Another anti-feat.

An easy rule to remember for 1A is that it can never exist (their true form/main body/whatever is 1A, lower manifestations or projections that are non-1A existence-wise can work as a go-around but have to be proven) in a non-1A realm, as simply existing in it proves that it is not 1A. (That's one of the side effects of
being superior to all contents of the lower reality, including their composition.)
Morris is a scientist who has studied magic for years without any moral limitations, experimenting even on children and killing many along the way.

Morris is delusional.

A delusion of grandiosity.

y. He also possesses all the accumulated knowledge of Loropechika over 500 years, who is considered an "omniscient" queen because of this. He is also recognized by Lucifero, a supreme demon who has existed for over 500 years and used Morris's magic and knowledge to alter the entire Qlitphord tree to free himself sooner. If you believe he is a lunatic who cannot assess his own magic, it is up to you to prove it.
None of them 'know everything', or do they?
 
m-dmg.webp
 
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