Neither High 1-A+ or Tier 0 (Self-Reference Engine Downgrade)

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I was looking back at the SRE proposal thread

My thoughts are essentially "wow this does not fit our current standards!" even if it was pretty much an unofficial consensus that SRE was a textbook example of high 1-A+ and even 0.


So first off SRE is literally described as being a space-time construct. Admittedly I'm not even sure if this parts an anti-feat for anything due to the weirdness of its overall (non)existence.

But it does just suggest the possible worlds/character strings it encompasses are bound by space and time in some way.

It might be appropriate here to explain a bit just who I am.
Like most things, I was built as a space-time construct. I am not one of those things whose construction is so impossibly complicated that it couldn’t really exist. I can see you, and I can talk to you, just as I am doing now.
The reasons why I was built should be pretty clear.
The only task assigned to me is to tell stories and at some point to opt not to tell stories.
As for who built me, that is not for me to say. There is no way for me to answer such a simple question. Simple questions do not necessarily have simple answers. The reason why I do not exist as an “I” is that I have no memory of my existence. Most probably, I did not abruptly burst forth from the ether, as something that did not previously exist. Therefore, anyone might have made me. I may even have made myself. I may even be something like the exact opposite of Laplace’s Demon. Because I did not exist in a certain specific instant, I cannot exist in all the eternity before and after that instant.

The more damning evidence I have though is pretty much considered the main part of it's tier 0. But this not only contradicts tier 0 but also a potential high 1-A+ rating.

Here it's talking about transitioning itself from it's current "nonexistence" to be even more nonexistent. But this isn't even portrayed in a NEP way, it's literally just saying it's gonna end itself. Nonexistence in a more absolute way. Even then it's not talking about a higher tier 0 form of nonexistence and is just transitioning from one state to another (which is a HUGE HUGE contradiction for both high 1-A+ and tier 0 since you cant become the latter and you cant destroy or alter the former)

Before long, I think it will be time for me to fulfill the final task given to me.

This will be the provisional endpoint of this story. Right now, I am thinking about becoming even less existent. Strictly speaking, I am already not here. The proof of the existence of the mechanical void has already been demonstrated. What is not here is the empty husk of my self. But if I should disappear even further, so that even this form no longer exists, then I will really not be here. I will not exist in any form. It is at this point that I wish to say goodbye, with all the many emotions that salutation contains.

Goodbye.
I know I will never see you again.
But I pray, from the bottom of my nonexistent heart, that somehow, in some somewhere that has become whatever it is to become, in some universe or other, that I will see you again.
Even if the stories that will emanate from there are nothing more than another endless chain of slapstick.

I can get over it though, as many times as necessary. Allow me to demonstrate.

So I propose completely removing the 2nd key, as well as downgrading the current rating to this

Low 1-A for comprising all possible character strings, which include low 1-A stuff within it.

 

[Re5yh]

Agree, possibly

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

“ 「無」だとされていた。「私」は語る。「私の名は Self-Reference ENGINE。全てを語らな いために、あらかじめ設計されなかった、もとより存在していない構造物」。そう語るこ とによって「私」は存在し始め、あらかじめ存在していたことになり、全てを語り出す/ 語っている/語り終えた。そう、「何でもあり」が、「何もかも(全ての可能な?)」が、 そのまま「何も無し」と通底してしまうのならば、逆もまた真なり。「私は完全に機械的 に、完全に決定論的に作動していて、完全に存在していない」。だが、だから当然、こう も言える。「私」こそは、「私」だけが、ここに存在しているのだ。完全に機械的に、か っ決定論的に。

作動し続ける (作動しない) ことで「全て」を駆動する「無」としての「自己言及エン 「ジン」。それをあくまで実態論的に、たとえば「一つの時空構造として作られている」と考えれば、この物語は超超超超ハードSFになる。そして実際、本作はイーガンやチャン 「や神林や飛にも引けを取らない、押しも押されぬれっきとした「SF」である。だが、実 のところはそう考えなくてもよいのだ。「プロローグ」が「Writing」と題されていたこ とを思い出そう。或いは「Event」における「小説家」の比喩を。ふと語り出すことで存 在し出し、何もかもを存在させ出す「無」。それは「小説家」の、「小説」の、「書くこ と」の原理に他ならない。"


Until then, "nothing". But then, "I" spoke. "My name is Self-Reference ENGINE. A structure that in order to not proclaim everything, had not been designed, and therefore does not exist." With that declaration, "I" hence began existing, had thus existed prior, and therefore says all/is saying all/has spoken all. Yes, if "anything is possible", and "anything" in definition contains "nothing", then that means its contradiction is also true as well. "I operate completely mechanistically, completely deterministically, and am completely nonexistent." So then, it can also be said that "I" and "I" alone exists here, being completely mechanistic and deterministic.

The Self Reference Engine, the "nothing" that functions as the driving force of "everything" via its continued operation (or perhaps non-operation). If you think about it in realist perspective—for example, "it's made up of a singular spacetime structure", this story becomes a very, very, very hard science-fiction. And in fact, this work is an outstanding sci-fi work comparable to those of Egan, Chiang, Kambayashi, and Tobi. Recall that the "Prologue" was titled "Writing", or "Event" in regards to the metaphor of the novelist. The "nothing" that suddenly came into existence and brought everything into existence by speaking out. That is nothing more than the truth behind the novelist, of novels, and of writing as a whole.

There is fundamentally no way of knowing the nonexistence of my nonexistent self. Therefore, it cannot be that what you are seeing is me. Even if I am aware that I am being seen by you. Even if I feel a twinge of regret at this.

Before long, I think it will be time for me to fulfill the final task given to me.

This will be the provisional endpoint of this story. Right now, I am thinking about becoming even less existent. Strictly speaking, I am already not here. The proof of the existence of the mechanical void has already been demonstrated. What is not here is the empty husk ("抜殻") of my self. But if I should disappear even further, so that even this form no longer exists, then I will really not be here. I will not exist in any form. It is at this point that I wish to say goodbye, with all the many emotions that salutation contains.

Goodbye.
I know I will never see you again.

But I pray, from the bottom of my nonexistent heart, that somehow, in some somewhere that has become whatever it is to become, in some universe or other, that I will see you again.
Even if the stories that will emanate from there are nothing more than another endless chain of slapstick.

I can get over it though, as many times as necessary. Allow me to demonstrate.

In the beginning, there was nothing at all until the Self-Reference ENGINE spoke its own name aloud.
That act was the very first boundary of definition. It possessed no existence whatsoever; it was a perfectly mechanical void. The moment it “spoke” or “declared” itself, it came into being and in that same instant brought “everything” into existence as well.

Thiswill be the provisional endpoint of this story. Right now, I am thinking about becoming even less existent. Strictly speaking, I am already not here. The proof of the existence of the mechanical void has already been demonstrated. What is not here is the empty husk (“抜殻”) of my self. But if I should disappear even further, so that even this form no longer exists, then I will really not be here. I will not exist in any form. It is at this point that I wish to say goodbye, with all the many emotions that salutation contains. 
Goodbye
i know I will never see you again.

Its gradually reducing the (non-)existence that is the mere shell left over from its own story, until finally it returns to true Nonexistent or Absolute Nothingness.

The existence of the Self-Reference ENGINE (which is itself Nonexistent) is merely the hollow shell of Absolute Nothingness.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

In the beginning, there was nothing at all until the Self-Reference ENGINE spoke its own name aloud.
That act was the very first boundary of definition. It possessed no existence whatsoever; it was a perfectly mechanical void. The moment it “spoke” or “declared” itself, it came into being and in that same instant brought “everything” into existence as well.


Its gradually reducing the (non-)existence that is the mere shell left over from its own story, until finally it returns to true Nonexistent or Absolute Nothingness.

The existence of the Self-Reference ENGINE (which is itself Nonexistent) is merely the hollow shell of Absolute Nothingness.

yea this doesn’t read as any true form. It’s just referring to itself as a sort of nonexistence but will truly become nonexistence in an absolute sense. It even says it’ll cease to be entirely and not exist in any form at all. Again none of this posits a true form rather than transitioning from one state to another

It’s even saying the “nothing” is part of its function of the mechanical nonexistence

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Looks good at first glance. I agree for now.

 

[Elyartaker]

Not knowledgeable about the verse but changing states like that definitely seems to be an anti feat.
So for now, yeah I agree (layered Low 1-A I suppose).

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

The character personifying the dream would be High 1-A+. Effectively, the collection of all possible effects which the Tier 0 can bring about. Not "Omnipotence," per se, but moreso the space of all worlds that an omnipotent being can create. You might want to refer to the concept of possible worlds for this, and more specifically to the concept of modal realism.

But it doesn't have to be solely that, of course. Here, for example, is the Self-Reference ENGINE. And its first key is its manifest "shell," which comprises the set of all possible combinations of letters and characters, each of which constitutes a different world.

Due to the nature of how it works, High 1-A+ has similar properties to Tier 0, in a way. For instance, all characters in that tier are exactly equal. You can't really be above the collection of all possibilities and yet be, yourself, one of those possibilities, as that'd be an obvious contradiction. So ultimately, transcending a High 1-A+ means you're Tier 0, and if you supposedly do that while also displaying traits very unlike those of a Tier 0, then the thing you transcended was just never High 1-A+ to begin with.

I completely forgot that Ultima already mentioned in this thread that it's a High 1A+ Type 2.

However, I've read it once before, but I don't remember the content.

 

[BlazeISbot111]

Besides what @Ihsjihahxu brought I will clear the context.
Starting with, this quote should be kept in mind.

“ 「無」だとされていた。「私」は語る。「私の名は Self-Reference ENGINE。全てを語らな いために、あらかじめ設計されなかった、もとより存在していない構造物」。そう語るこ とによって「私」は存在し始め、あらかじめ存在していたことになり、全てを語り出す/ 語っている/語り終えた。そう、「何でもあり」が、「何もかも(全ての可能な?)」が、 そのまま「何も無し」と通底してしまうのならば、逆もまた真なり。「私は完全に機械的 に、完全に決定論的に作動していて、完全に存在していない」。だが、だから当然、こう も言える。「私」こそは、「私」だけが、ここに存在しているのだ。完全に機械的に、か っ決定論的に。

作動し続ける (作動しない) ことで「全て」を駆動する「無」としての「自己言及エン 「ジン」。それをあくまで実態論的に、たとえば「一つの時空構造として作られている」と考えれば、この物語は超超超超ハードSFになる。そして実際、本作はイーガンやチャン 「や神林や飛にも引けを取らない、押しも押されぬれっきとした「SF」である。だが、実 のところはそう考えなくてもよいのだ。「プロローグ」が「Writing」と題されていたこ とを思い出そう。或いは「Event」における「小説家」の比喩を。ふと語り出すことで存 在し出し、何もかもを存在させ出す「無」。それは「小説家」の、「小説」の、「書くこ と」の原理に他ならない。"


Until then, "nothing". But then, "I" spoke. "My name is Self-Reference ENGINE. A structure that in order to not proclaim everything, had not been designed, and therefore does not exist." With that declaration, "I" hence began existing, had thus existed prior, and therefore says all/is saying all/has spoken all. Yes, if "anything is possible", and "anything" in definition contains "nothing", then that means its contradiction is also true as well. "I operate completely mechanistically, completely deterministically, and am completely nonexistent." So then, it can also be said that "I" and "I" alone exists here, being completely mechanistic and deterministic.

The Self Reference Engine, the "nothing" that functions as the driving force of "everything" via its continued operation (or perhaps non-operation). If you think about it in realist perspective—for example, "it's made up of a singular spacetime structure", this story becomes a very, very, very hard science-fiction. And in fact, this work is an outstanding sci-fi work comparable to those of Egan, Chiang, Kambayashi, and Tobi. Recall that the "Prologue" was titled "Writing", or "Event" in regards to the metaphor of the novelist. The "nothing" that suddenly came into existence and brought everything into existence by speaking out. That is nothing more than the truth behind the novelist, of novels, and of writing as a whole.

So first off SRE is literally described as being a space-time construct. Admittedly I'm not even sure if this parts an anti-feat for anything due to the weirdness of its overall (non)existence.

But it does just suggest the possible worlds/character strings it encompasses are bound by space and time in some way.

1- Everything that is concrete is bound by space-time and only High 1A+ type 2 and T0 are the thing that are truly beyond it. (Different schools of thoughts such as Solipsism or epistemology, or specific notations often divert from such notion but they are not that relevant here).

2- This statement here isn't about it being bound by space-time but being the very structure of space-time, the same way other mechanical engine works— Giant Corpus of Knowledge being described as having unified with the laws of nature themselves or Hypergiant Corpora a race who hold dimensions itself as physical constituents of their bodies, as opposed to frameworks they live within.

3- SRE was establishing its [non-]existence. It strictly does not exist in space-time for it is undefined, thus it's non-existent, with added context that every single proposition and its negation exists.

In this universe, that which can occur does occur. So what problems would be caused if things that cannot occur do occur? Wouldn’t that simply be the transformation of something that could not occur into something that could occur? I have no conclusive evidence that such an occurrence would be absolutely impossible.

I do not belong to that set of things that could occur but for whatever reason have not yet occurred. I belong to that set of things that are not defined because they cannot occur; it is only by some strange trick that I do not exist. But someday someone will reach a hand into this area. I only pray that hand is not reaching out to grab me.

The more damning evidence I have though is pretty much considered the main part of it's tier 0. But this not only contradicts tier 0 but also a potential high 1-A+ rating.

T0 is outdated, atleast the justification. But true this can be a contradiction to T0.

Here it's talking about transitioning itself from it's current "nonexistence" to be even more nonexistent. But this isn't even portrayed in a NEP way, it's literally just saying it's gonna end itself. Nonexistence in a more absolute way.

No, that deeper non-existence is strictly its true from. Self-Reference Engine is a shell which is simply a "shell" that was brought into form by its own act of narration, and which retreats back into utter nothingness when it ceases [non] operation, marking the end of all stories and of the book itself. SRE the shell is the space-time construct that sustains existence.

“ 「無」だとされていた。「私」は語る。「私の名は Self-Reference ENGINE。全てを語らな いために、あらかじめ設計されなかった、もとより存在していない構造物」。そう語るこ とによって「私」は存在し始め、あらかじめ存在していたことになり、全てを語り出す/ 語っている/語り終えた。そう、「何でもあり」が、「何もかも(全ての可能な?)」が、 そのまま「何も無し」と通底してしまうのならば、逆もまた真なり。「私は完全に機械的 に、完全に決定論的に作動していて、完全に存在していない」。だが、だから当然、こう も言える。「私」こそは、「私」だけが、ここに存在しているのだ。完全に機械的に、か っ決定論的に。

作動し続ける (作動しない) ことで「全て」を駆動する「無」としての「自己言及エン 「ジン」。それをあくまで実態論的に、たとえば「一つの時空構造として作られている」と考えれば、この物語は超超超超ハードSFになる。そして実際、本作はイーガンやチャン 「や神林や飛にも引けを取らない、押しも押されぬれっきとした「SF」である。だが、実 のところはそう考えなくてもよいのだ。「プロローグ」が「Writing」と題されていたこ とを思い出そう。或いは「Event」における「小説家」の比喩を。ふと語り出すことで存 在し出し、何もかもを存在させ出す「無」。それは「小説家」の、「小説」の、「書くこ と」の原理に他ならない。"


Until then, "nothing". But then, "I" spoke. "My name is Self-Reference ENGINE. A structure that in order to not proclaim everything, had not been designed, and therefore does not exist." With that declaration, "I" hence began existing, had thus existed prior, and therefore says all/is saying all/has spoken all. Yes, if "anything is possible", and "anything" in definition contains "nothing", then that means its contradiction is also true as well. "I operate completely mechanistically, completely deterministically, and am completely nonexistent." So then, it can also be said that "I" and "I" alone exists here, being completely mechanistic and deterministic.

The Self Reference Engine, the "nothing" that functions as the driving force of "everything" via its continued operation (or perhaps non-operation). If you think about it in realist perspective—for example, "it's made up of a singular spacetime structure", this story becomes a very, very, very hard science-fiction. And in fact, this work is an outstanding sci-fi work comparable to those of Egan, Chiang, Kambayashi, and Tobi. Recall that the "Prologue" was titled "Writing", or "Event" in regards to the metaphor of the novelist. The "nothing" that suddenly came into existence and brought everything into existence by speaking out. That is nothing more than the truth behind the novelist, of novels, and of writing as a whole.

Even then it's not talking about a higher tier 0 form of nonexistence and is just transitioning from one state to another (which is a HUGE HUGE contradiction for both high 1-A+ and tier 0 since you cant become the latter and you cant destroy or alter the former)

As stated previously the true form is what has primacy. While the existence of the shell itself is completely pre-determined. It's better to think of the shell as an avatar that sustains existence, while the true form is a true non-existence.

This will be the provisional endpoint of this story. Right now, I am thinking about becoming even less existent. Strictly speaking, I am already not here. The proof of the existence of the mechanical void has already been demonstrated. What is not here is the empty husk of my self. But if I should disappear even further, so that even this form no longer exists, then I will really not be here. I will not exist in any form. It is at this point that I wish to say goodbye, with all the many emotions that salutation contains.
Goodbye.
I know I will never see you again.
But I pray, from the bottom of my nonexistent heart, that somehow, in some somewhere that has become whatever it is to become, in some universe or other, that I will see you again.
Even if the stories that will emanate from there are nothing more than another endless chain of slapstick.
I can get over it though, as many times as necessary. Allow me to demonstrate.

So I propose completely removing the 2nd key, as well as downgrading the current rating to this

Low 1-A for comprising all possible character strings, which include low 1-A stuff within it.

Imo, T0 for the true form makes more sense, while High 1A+ type 2 for the shell.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I don’t see anything for Tier 0. Anti-feat or not. (Maybe cuz it transcended High 1-A+…?)

In any case, I don’t think there’s anything damming here for High 1-A+ Type 1. You are capable of instantiating all possible worlds whilst not yourself being bereft of potency.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Besides what @Ihsjihahxu brought I will clear the context.
Starting with, this quote should be kept in mind.



1- Everything that is concrete is bound by space-time and only High 1A+ type 2 and T0 are the thing that are truly beyond it. (Different schools of thoughts such as Solipsism or epistemology, or specific notations often divert from such notion but they are not that relevant here).

2- This statement here isn't about it being bound by space-time but being the very structure of space-time, the same way other mechanical engine works— Giant Corpus of Knowledge being described as having unified with the laws of nature themselves or Hypergiant Corpora a race who hold dimensions itself as physical constituents of their bodies, as opposed to frameworks they live within.

3- SRE was establishing its [non-]existence. It strictly does not exist in space-time for it is undefined, thus it's non-existent, with added context that every single proposition and its negation exists.



T0 is outdated, atleast the justification. But true this can be a contradiction to T0.


No, that deeper non-existence is strictly its true from. Self-Reference Engine is a shell which is simply a "shell" that was brought into form by its own act of narration, and which retreats back into utter nothingness when it ceases [non] operation, marking the end of all stories and of the book itself. SRE the shell is the space-time construct that sustains existence.



As stated previously the true form is what has primacy. While the existence of the shell itself is completely pre-determined. It's better to think of the shell as an avatar that sustains existence, while the true form is a true non-existence.



Imo, T0 for the true form makes more sense, while High 1A+ type 2 for the shell.

"What is not here is the empty husk of my self" Is NOT referring to a true form here. It is literally referring to itself as an empty husk because it is a mechanical nonexistence, not because of a deeper self. It has consistently used wordplay of being not to show its mechanical nonexistence/nothingness (the non-operation is literally an example of this). Genuinely I think this is the most misunderstood reading of it.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I don’t see anything for Tier 0. Anti-feat or not. (Maybe cuz it transcended High 1-A+…?)

In any case, I don’t think there’s anything damming here for High 1-A+ Type 1. You are capable of instantiating all possible worlds whilst not yourself being bereft of potency.

It cant be anything other than high 1-A+ type 2 if it were high 1-A+ because it's literally the driving force behind all possible worlds and comprises them all.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The profile says that the shell is part of it’s narration, so why can’t it be subsumed by it’s ultimate non-existent form…?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

The profile says that the shell is part of it’s narration, so why can’t it be subsumed by it’s ultimate non-existent form…?

Dude... I'm literally contesting that part right now. There is no true form. That's a pretty generous reading of it. People just use it referring to its normal nonexistence with wordplay as statements of its deeper nonexistence. It's intentionally paradoxical and self-referential here (coming purely from itself and only itself for example) without invoking a relationship between avatar and true form.

Even their own scans are referring to its mechanical nonexistence rather than emerging from a true form.

Until then, "nothing". But then, "I" spoke. "My name is Self-Reference ENGINE. A structure that in order to not proclaim everything, had not been designed, and therefore does not exist." With that declaration, "I" hence began existing, had thus existed prior, and therefore says all/is saying all/has spoken all. Yes, if "anything is possible", and "anything" in definition contains "nothing", then that means its contradiction is also true as well. "I operate completely mechanistically, completely deterministically, and am completely nonexistent." So then, it can also be said that "I" and "I" alone exists here, being completely mechanistic and deterministic.

The Self Reference Engine, the "nothing" that functions as the driving force of "everything" via its continued operation (or perhaps non-operation). If you think about it in realist perspective—for example, "it's made up of a singular spacetime structure", this story becomes a very, very, very hard science-fiction. And in fact, this work is an outstanding sci-fi work comparable to those of Egan, Chiang, Kambayashi, and Tobi. Recall that the "Prologue" was titled "Writing", or "Event" in regards to the metaphor of the novelist. The "nothing" that suddenly came into existence and brought everything into existence by speaking out. That is nothing more than the truth behind the novelist, of novels, and of writing as a whole.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Dude... I'm literally contesting that part right now. There is no true form. That's a pretty generous reading of it. People just use it referring to its normal nonexistence with wordplay as statements of its deeper nonexistence. It's intentionally paradoxical and self-referential here (coming purely from itself and only itself for example) without invoking a relationship between avatar and true form.

Even their own scans are referring to its mechanical nonexistence rather than emerging from a true form.

Yea so why can’t even the act of non-existence be within its narration? The text you linked literally says that “nothing” is within the possibilities of “everything”

 

[BlazeISbot111]

"What is not here is the empty husk of my self" Is NOT referring to a true form here. It is literally referring to itself as an empty husk because it is a mechanical nonexistence, not because of a deeper self. It has consistently used wordplay of being not to show its mechanical nonexistence/nothingness (the non-operation is literally an example of this). Genuinely I think this is the most misunderstood reading of it.

There's more to that highlight. I was referring to the thing without a form, the thing that has primacy, not the shell which is merely something brought forth to sustain existence. The shell has a form the "True form" doesn't.

Which as previously mentioned in the JP quote, is something that is completely deterministic, "it says all, is saying all and has spoken all".

Until then, "nothing". But then, "I" spoke. "My name is Self-Reference ENGINE. A structure that in order to not proclaim everything, had not been designed, and therefore does not exist." With that declaration, "I" hence began existing, had thus existed prior, and therefore says all/is saying all/has spoken all. Yes, if "anything is possible", and "anything" in definition contains "nothing", then that means its contradiction is also true as well. "I operate completely mechanistically, completely deterministically, and am completely nonexistent." So then, it can also be said that "I" and "I" alone exists here, being completely mechanistic and deterministic.

What I am trying to get is that, the shell "going more non-existence" is something that is already pre-determined. Something that people often use to imply that "SRE being able to think, or being able to change is an anti-feat" for high tiers, completely disregarding the context.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yea so why can’t even the act of non-existence be within its narration? The text you linked literally says that “nothing” is within the possibilities of “everything”

Because it doesnt work for high 1-A+ type 2. It's self defeating to transition.

There's more to that highlight. I was referring to the thing without a form, the thing that has primacy, not the shell which is merely something brought forth to sustain existence. The shell has a form the "True form" doesn't.

Which as previously mentioned in the JP quote, is something that is completely deterministic, "it says all, is saying all and has spoken all".


What I am trying to get is that, the shell "going more non-existence" is something that is already pre-determined. Something that people often use to imply that "SRE being able to think, or being able to change is an anti-feat" for high tiers, completely disregarding the context.

I still completely disagree reading that this "husk" is a commentary relating to a true form rather than referring to itself as an empty husk due to its mechanical nonexistence. It's also just intentionally being paradoxical.

Even if it's further nonexistence is pre-determined I disagree with that allowing for a high 1-A+ type 2 due to transitory nature of it, and with my disagreement of there being a tier 0 true form to facilitate it.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Because it doesnt work for high 1-A+ type 2. It's self defeating to transition.

Do you think change within the Space-Times of Logical Space is also defeating?

Ya know, “change” here is only an anti-feat for the atomic facts of the space itself, not for the things manifested by the relation of those facts.

Cuz it’s obviously not an anti-feat for SRE to speak, ye? So why is it’s non-existence then, if it already existed pre-determined in it’s atomic facts.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Do you think change within the Space-Times of Logical Space is also defeating?

Ya know, “change” here is only an anti-feat for the atomic facts of the space itself, not for the things manifested by the relation of those facts.

Cuz it’s obviously not an anti-feat for SRE to speak, ye? So why is it’s non-existence then, if it already existed pre-determined in it’s atomic facts.

It's changing purely itself... The high 1-A+ type 2 part of it. The fundamental possibilities. It's not allowed in this tiering system. SRE IS the logical space itself not the things within it.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Cuz it’s obviously not an anti-feat for SRE to speak, ye? So why is it’s non-existence then, if it already existed pre-determined in it’s atomic facts.

I mean from what I understand speaking is an anti feat for Tier 0 so...

 

[SuperNova55555]

It's changing purely itself... The high 1-A+ type 2 part of it. The fundamental possibilities. It's not allowed in this tiering system. SRE IS the logical space itself not the things within it.

This still reads if he’s already non-existent. What is changing here is the “husk” that is defined by logical relations.

And then, he also says this:

But I pray, from the bottom of my nonexistent heart, that somehow, in some somewhere that has become whatever it is to become, in some universe or other, that I will see you again.

It can’t be that this universe isn’t withholden to SRE, no?

Cuz the statements are pretty much confirmed to be within a “story”, particularly at its “endpoint”. So it has to not be the logical space itself if it is itself underpinned.

Until then, "nothing". But then, "I" spoke.

The true nothing is the first statement, and the second is the husk, ye? Is “speaking” here also an anti-feat? I mean, it’s already part of the narration, so there’s no way it isn’t pre-determined by the atomic facts, no?

Because again, the statements literally proclaim that this semi-nothingness is inherently subsumed by possibilities, which exist within atomic facts.

And as the “driving force”, I am not sure why it can’t be Type 1 if it functions in accordance to the Logical Space.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I mean from what I understand speaking is an anti feat for Tier 0 so...

I’m saying that it’s not literally speaking. Rather that it is a manifested phenomena within SRE

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

This still reads if he’s already non-existent. What is changing here is the “husk” that is defined by logical relations.

And then, he also says this:

It can’t be that this universe isn’t withholden to SRE, no?

Cuz the statements are pretty much confirmed to be within a “story”, particularly at its “endpoint”. So it has to not be the logical space itself if it is itself underpinned.


The true nothing is the first statement, and the second is the husk, ye? Is “speaking” here also an anti-feat? I mean, it’s already part of the narration, so there’s no way it isn’t pre-determined by the atomic facts, no?

Because again, the statements literally proclaim that this semi-nothingness is inherently subsumed by possibilities, which exist within atomic facts.

And as the “driving force”, I am not sure why it can’t be Type 1 if it functions in accordance to the Logical Space.

The husk IS the non-existent. It refers to itself as a empty husk because it's nonexistent. I think you're reading way too deep into this. It's also intentionally portraying itself paradoxically which you arent taking into account.

SREs mechanical nonexistence is also what refers to what comprises, drives, and narrates all possible worlds. Hence why it's the "nothing" that drives "everything".

You're reading of this is way too convoluted and I think has less basis than simply arguing a tier 0 true form.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I dunno man, as an outsider it doesn’t seem allat implausible.

You're reading of this is way too convoluted and I think has less basis than simply arguing a tier 0 true form.

SRE lacks literally everything required for Tier 0 aside from being capable of actualizing all contingent facts.

 

[BlazeISbot111]

I still completely disagree reading that this "husk" is a commentary relating to a true form rather than referring to itself as an empty husk due to its mechanical nonexistence. It's also just intentionally being paradoxical.

Huh? No? When did I say that? The difference is made very apparent. The non-existent shell or the husk is the one that has a "form". The non-existent shell narrates everything into existence thus, ending narration means end of existence, which then shell follows by/considers as "going into deeper non-existence". This non-existence is very explicitly the "formless non-existence" that created this non-existent shell as a "space-time construct" that emanates stories into existence. This narration and it by itself is completely pre-determined.

Because it doesnt work for high 1-A+ type 2. It's self defeating to transition.

Which it isn't? The distinction between them is made very apparent with true form being the entity that brought the shell into existence. It stopping narration means no stories are being emanated to form existence something the shell is a structure to. No narration= No stories = "going even more non-existent". Everything which is already pre-determined.

Even if it's further nonexistence is pre-determined I disagree with that allowing for a high 1-A+ type 2 due to transitory nature of it, and with my disagreement of there being a tier 0 true form to facilitate it.

So if the true form was T0 then it would have facilitated the change? But since SRE admitted to change to go back to true form that means the true form isn't T0? That is circular reasoning.

Anyways, this why I said consider SRE, the shell, as an avatar to ease understanding. This shell is brought forth into existence as a part of narration to sustain the existence itself. When the narration is stopped the existence cease to be, so does the avatar. This change is pre-determined, or rather this was something that always existed, is existing and will exist. There is no sequential cause and effect here or some form of change. The actions are reflected into the book as consecutive actions, as a part of narration to us readers/reality. The "change" are thus not reflected into the book/reality as when SRE stops the narration the books end.

Anyways, I am not knowledgeable in T0 scaling. It's just better to refer to Taoism or Kabbalahic teachings, both Tao and Ein/Ein Sof/Ein sof Aur go through three progressive steps in creation. In book of Law Ein is referred to as Nuit, it teaches that humans are in a process of enlightenment going back into Nuit. Similar case is in Taoism. None of these change are reflected into reality. That's how I understand Immutability, so it could be wrong.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I dunno man, as an outsider it doesn’t seem allat implausible.


SRE lacks literally everything required for Tier 0 aside from being capable of actualizing all contingent facts.

If you were to take it all face value without (imo) evaluating other context it's actually pretty straightforward tier 0. If you have a sort of being beyond all possible worlds and they're singular and exhibit no anti-feats for tier 0, then they're pretty much tier 0. I remember Ultima saying something similar on discord where something beyond high 1-A+ would simply just be tier 0 (and not in the way that only tier 0 is above high 1-A+ even if it is)

 

[SuperNova55555]

If you were to take it all face value without (imo) evaluating other context it's actually pretty straightforward tier 0. If you have a sort of being beyond all possible worlds and they're singular and exhibit no anti-feats for tier 0, then they're pretty much tier 0. I remember Ultima saying something similar on discord where something beyond high 1-A+ would simply just be tier 0 (and not in the way that only tier 0 is above high 1-A+ even if it is)

You know well I js disagree with Ultima here lel.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Huh? No? When did I say that? The difference is made very apparent. The non-existent shell or the husk is the one that has a "form". The non-existent shell narrates everything into existence thus, ending narration means end of existence, which then shell follows by/considers as "going into deeper non-existence". This non-existence is very explicitly the "formless non-existence" that created this non-existent shell as a "space-time construct" that emanates stories into existence. This narration and it by itself is completely pre-determined.

Which it isn't? The distinction between them is made very apparent with true form being the entity that brought the shell into existence. It stopping narration means no stories are being emanated to form existence something the shell is a structure to. No narration= No stories = "going even more non-existent". Everything which is already pre-determined.


So if the true form was T0 then it would have facilitated the change? But since SRE admitted to change to go back to true form that means the true form isn't T0? That is circular reasoning.

Anyways, this why I said consider SRE, the shell, as an avatar to ease understanding. This shell is brought forth into existence as a part of narration to sustain the existence itself. When the narration is stopped the existence cease to be, so does the avatar. This change is pre-determined, or rather this was something that always existed, is existing and will exist. There is no sequential cause and effect here or some form of change. The actions are reflected into the book as consecutive actions, as a part of narration to us readers/reality. The "change" are thus not reflected into the book/reality as when SRE stops the narration the books end.

Anyways, I am not knowledgeable in T0 scaling. It's just better to refer to Taoism or Kabbalahic teachings, both Tao and Ein/Ein Sof/Ein sof Aur go through three progressive steps in creation. In book of Law Ein is referred to as Nuit, it teaches that humans are in a process of enlightenment going back into Nuit. Similar case is in Taoism. None of these change are reflected into reality. That's how I understand Immutability, so it could be wrong.

I think me arguing more will probably end up in circles so I'm gonna wait for staff and hope Ultima evaluates this thread since he should be SRE person.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I’m saying that it’s not literally speaking. Rather that it is a manifested phenomena within SRE

depending on what that means it can be an anti feat for T0

 

[Xearesay]

The husk IS the non-existent. It refers to itself as a empty husk because it's nonexistent. I think you're reading way too deep into this. It's also intentionally portraying itself paradoxically which you arent taking into account.

SREs mechanical nonexistence is also what refers to what comprises, drives, and narrates all possible worlds. Hence why it's the "nothing" that drives "everything".

You're reading of this is way too convoluted and I think has less basis than simply arguing a tier 0 true form.

I think you’re sort of misreading the excerpt or at least not fully understanding it because just saying “it refers to itself as empty because it’s non-existent” is not really explaining anything and is just borderline wrong.

The reason the engine invokes all things by referring to itself is because of how self-reference inherently implies a subtle subject and object distinguishment.

Think of a blank page. If that page came alive and referred to itself as a blank page, then the blank page is both the observed and the observer. However, because pure nothingness has no distinctions, the attempt to refer to itself generates the first distinction(observer and observed) without really positing a substance behind either as existence cannot proceed reference. As such, this distinction is not “everything,” but instead the condition under which anything can appear on the page. And In the context of SRE, the text is essentially just all the possible myriads of dimensions and cardinalities. This is why it says “my only task is to tell stories” because by referring to itself, it’s indirectly making possible all of what can be written on the page. Even the act of ending of itself, is technically doing that as well, which mirrors how this act of self reference becomes the condition which makes the stories not just possible but also preservable. Going even further, this is why it’s also a book, because a book preserve what’s written in it and by the mechanism of opening(referring to itself) and closing the book(deleting itself), you can always refer back to what’s written in it.

Now keep in mind, I’m not saying this is tier 0, but rather if all possible dimensions and cardinalities is low 1-A, than SRE would have to be at least 1-A since it’s the condition under which all possible dimensions emanate. And you can’t emanate all possible dimensions while being a dimension yourself, so there must be some higher ontology at play. A 1-A would also be pretty much so transcendent that it would appear practically non-existent to a low 1-A or High 1-B+ character anyway, so SRE fits that.

 

[Livinmeme]

I left the wiki after realizing the nonsense of stuff like multiversal kratos. But that is not there or here. Tier 0 are already accepted to be able to "absorb" people. The god mystery of the seekers profile already accept it "The Magician never engages in any sort of combat. However, his physical body was mortal, being long dead,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Seekers_into_the_Mystery)#cite_note-Fifteen-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a> and most of his showcased apparitions are described as being simply dreams and visions.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Seekers_into_the_Mystery)#cite_note-Fifteen-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a> That said, due to the nature of his existence, this statistic is certainly irrelevant to him, and he can simply dissolve back into his oneness at will<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Seekers_into_the_Mystery)#cite_note-Seven-3"><span>[</span></a>". The white light already accepts it "Absorption & Existence Erasure(Those who gaze at the Absolute lose their individuality and conception, becoming one with it)". It is more like a part of the absolute being of the universe waking up to from a dream.

 

[Hecky2222]

I left the wiki after realizing the nonsense of stuff like multiversal kratos. But that is not there or here. Tier 0 are already accepted to be able to "absorb" people. The god mystery of the seekers profile already accept it "The Magician never engages in any sort of combat. However, his physical body was mortal, being long dead,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Seekers_into_the_Mystery)#cite_note-Fifteen-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a> and most of his showcased apparitions are described as being simply dreams and visions.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Seekers_into_the_Mystery)#cite_note-Fifteen-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a> That said, due to the nature of his existence, this statistic is certainly irrelevant to him, and he can simply dissolve back into his oneness at will<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Seekers_into_the_Mystery)#cite_note-Seven-3"><span>[</span></a>". The white light already accepts it "Absorption & Existence Erasure(Those who gaze at the Absolute lose their individuality and conception, becoming one with it)". It is more like a part of the absolute being of the universe waking up to from a dream.

Idk why you derailed this thread with this. If you read page carefully you would know Magician isn't Boundless but God is(Two keys where Magician is High 1A+¦ and dura to Unknown as you see and God is T0)

Also this is where God was accepted as Boundless to get why or what https://vsbattles.com/threads/god-tier-0-seekers-into-the-mystery.169802/

Anyways none of this are relevant to SRE so if you think Seekers into Mysteries rating unjustified you need to make another CRT to not derail this topic

 

[Livinmeme]

Idk why you derailed this thread with this. If you read page carefully you would know Magician isn't Boundless but God is(Two keys where Magician is High 1A+¦ and dura to Unknown as you see and God is T0)

Also this is where God was accepted as Boundless to get why or what https://vsbattles.com/threads/god-tier-0-seekers-into-the-mystery.169802/

Anyways none of this are relevant to SRE so if you think Seekers into Mysteries rating unjustified you need to make another CRT to not derail this topic

1. Yeah fair
2. ??? The magician can absorb people back into god, I mean, it is stated directly that god himself can do it "Maya claims that God can deprive someone of their individuality<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Seekers_into_the_Mystery)#cite_note-Seven-3"> href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Seekers_into_the_Mystery)#cite_note-Thirteen-4">and swallow them back into his infinity, which is corroborated by being something that she can accomplish herself"

 

[BleedingPeach]

Let's keep on focus, guys... Sorry to disturb like this but this about SRE. And I also think that thing is pretty above of what it deserves.

 

[Livinmeme]

Let's keep on focus, guys... Sorry to disturb like this but this about SRE. And I also think that thing is pretty above of what it deserves.

No? This is about SRE, one of the arguments against tier 0 SRE is that the hypothetical avatar was able to become one with his hypothetical true self, which already is accepted to not be an outlier.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

No? This is about SRE, one of the arguments against tier 0 SRE is that the hypothetical avatar was able to become one with his hypothetical true self, which already is accepted to not be an outlier.

I'm saying there is no tier 0 true self.

 

[Livinmeme]

I'm saying there is no tier 0 true self.

Hypothetical true self, goddamit, I even written it so there wasn't any misunderstanding.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Hypothetical true self, goddamit, I even written it so there wasn't any misunderstanding.

Well you're not making much sense in bringing this up anyways when I never said that returning or becoming one with a tier 0 true self was an anti feat.

 

[Vietthai96]

Should i ping Ultima here?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Should i ping Ultima here?

If you want. He's aware on discord but kinda just ignored me, so I doubt he's interested in this verse anymore.

 

[Vietthai96]

If you want. He's aware on discord but kinda just ignored me, so I doubt he's interested in this verse anymore.

@Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @ActuallySpaceMan42