(1 Staff Needed) Punishing Virus Revision

[AlipheeseXIV]

I've read the first four layer scaling, I could've sworn there was a crt made to stop layer scaling like this but if not then this is okay.

Can you link that CRT?

 

[Arkenis]

Can you link that CRT?

It's that time we discussed layering and qualitative superiority

Persmission to post this from @Damage3245 I'm sure everyone is familiar with the concept, but here we go: Now that we are done with explaining, let's get to the point of this CRT. This is the current definition of layering: What are the problems with it? First, it is very vague at some...

vsbattles.com

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

It's that time we discussed layering and qualitative superiority

Persmission to post this from @Damage3245 I'm sure everyone is familiar with the concept, but here we go: Now that we are done with explaining, let's get to the point of this CRT. This is the current definition of layering: What are the problems with it? First, it is very vague at some...

vsbattles.com

Which point exactly are you referring to?

 

[Arkenis]

Which point exactly are you referring to?

Here DT talks about how numbers shouldn't matter.

Qualitative superior is not the term we want to casually involve here due to its tiering use. Also because the difference between layers can absolutely be quantitative. We just generally don't have the quantifier.
That aside, this sounds a lot like it's born from the idea that potency = layers or that layers beat all other forms of potency. As the Hax page notes, layers are just one form of potency and ultimately one pretty much has to compare feats to feats.
Heck, there is no reason to believe that all "layers" signify the same gap either, which is why I always say that feats should be compared not the damn numbers.
So, ultimately, whether you consider quantitative increases as layers or as potency that can be equivalent to layers is pretty much just a semantics game.

And Agnaa quotes this

"Layers" of potency/resistance for abilities are not fixed quantities; they can vary in relevance between series, and even within a series. There are many different extents to which an ability can be resisted, and many different baseline potencies of abilities. If discussed in matches, they should be compared on a case-by-case basis, not by simply looking at which ability has more layers to it.

And DT wrote this up, in a comment.

Although layering is one method of showing exceptional hax potency, it is not the only one. Abilities may demonstrate extraordinary strength through completely different means, and such abilities may still overcome layered resistances. Conversely, heavily layered hax might overpower abilities that are potent in other respects. How different demonstrations of potency compare is highly situational and frequently inconclusive without strong supporting evidence.

Importantly, layers themselves are not fixed or universal units of measurement. Their significance can vary between fictional universes and even within a single setting. Baseline hax potency and the depth of resistances can differ widely, meaning raw layer counts cannot be used as an automatic comparison metric.
For example:

• A setting might have a system where skills have levels between 0 and 100, growing stronger with each level. In that setting, it might be common knowledge that a spatial magic resistance skill will make you immune to all spatial magic of a level lower than the level of the spatial resistance skill itself. Meanwhile, spatial magic with a level equal or higher will break through the spatial resistance skill. Level 100 spatial magic would then be considered to have 100 layers.
• In another setting, a character may have a skill that makes them immune to all spatial magic. However, an angelic being comes around wielding a superior kind of angelic super magic, which surpasses all of mankind's spells and can break through said spatial magic resistance. This would constitute one layer of increased spatial magic potency.

While this is an accurate representation of layer numbers, it would be questionable to assume that the potency increase between a level 1 and a level 3 spatial magic skill in the first setting is superior to the potency increase between regular magic and angelic super magic in the second setting. The former may have more layers, but it is worthy of debate whether one layer of the latter kind may be worth several of the former kind.
Hence, in discussions or matchups, layers must always be evaluated in context and on a case-by-case basis.

From what I read from your stuff

2 Layers: Lamia's corruption is so potent it can even corrupt the molecules around her and required Camu who scales above early game GR and is a Transcendant to help with resisting her abilities. Thus, anyone scaling to Lamia's level of potency would have 2 layers.
3 Layers: The GR Commandant could make a M.I.N.D connection with Luna, who as an Agent has far higher potency than Lamia or any Ascendant and transcends them as Agents are the highest form of Ascendant. Chrome who was previously shown resisting Lamia's corruption states no Commandant could do what they did. So the GR Commandant and anyone scaling to them gets 3 layers.

This doesn't mean much besides Lamia's corruption is just stronger/potent.
Lamia's transcendence should be further explained on what that means here, or else this sounds like she's just a stronger Ascendant is all.
The rest kinda do this too, with less explanation besides they just resisted/overpowered.
Chaos Contamination looks like there's something besides just "its stronger" going on so that shouldn't even be part of the layering.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

This doesn't mean much besides Lamia's corruption is just stronger/potent.
Lamia's transcendence should be further explained on what that means here, or else this sounds like she's just a stronger Ascendant is all.
The rest kinda do this too, with less explanation besides they just resisted/overpowered.

I see, there's a misunderstanding here. Lamia's corruption isn't just stronger/more potent it can affect the previous characters with resistance, and they were required to send out a Transcendant (who in the game's lore, is stated to be immune to the effects of the PV). Granted, the layer with Luna I could definitely remove, as for the last part I don't really understand what you mean? DT & Agnaa say themselves that overcoming a resistance or layer is either layered hax or layered resistance respectfully, so I don't know what your point is?

Chaos Contamination looks like there's something besides just "its stronger" going on so that shouldn't even be part of the layering.

CC does have a lot going on, but you should only be focusing on the mentioned abilities rather than everything else. It functions the same as the other layers, just at the current highest possible degree. Only few characters can resist it, and naturally it would upscale from the PV.

 

[Arkenis]

I see, I there's a misunderstanding here. Lamia's corruption isn't just stronger/more potent it can affect the previous characters with resistance, and they were required to send out a Transcendant (who in the game's lore, is stated to be immune to the effects of the PV). Granted, the layer with Luna I could definitely remove, as for the last part I don't really understand what you mean? DT & Agnaa say themselves that overcoming a resistance or layer is either layered hax or layered resistance so I don't know what your point is?

There's nothing explaining it besides you just saying its "so potent", that's what stronger/more potent means.
Reread what they're saying, they mention like three times how simply number layering shouldn't be the determiner for actual quality of the resistance/potency.

As the Hax page notes, layers are just one form of potency and ultimately one pretty much has to compare feats to feats.

Heck, there is no reason to believe that all "layers" signify the same gap either, which is why I always say that feats should be compared not the damn numbers.

While this is an accurate representation of layer numbers, it would be questionable to assume that the potency increase between a level 1 and a level 3 spatial magic skill in the first setting is superior to the potency increase between regular magic and angelic super magic in the second setting. The former may have more layers, but it is worthy of debate whether one layer of the latter kind may be worth several of the former kind.

I'm essentially saying these things, like Lamia transcendence statement or the other layers beyond 3, need something more to explain why it isn't just stronger resistance/potency.

4 Layers: The Twins were capable of completely paralyzing and nearly killing Lucia, Lee, Liv and the GR Commandant with just their presence despite the fact they had 2 mind beacons in the form of the GR Commandant and Simon supporting him and GR. Even though the GR Commandant could make a M.I.N.D connection with Luna and not get corrupted, so the Twins and anyone scaling to them gets 4 layers (aura layers will cap here).

Like this here, it outright says how they're getting hit twice as hard by the twins and the Mother, nothing to do with the quality of the hax's superiority.

CC does have a lot going on, but you should only be focusing on the mentioned abilities rather than everything else. It functions the same as the other layers, just at the current highest possible degree. Only few characters can resist it, and naturally it would upscale from the PV.

I don't think so. I don't know much from the verse, but reading your description, CC is the original form of the Red Tide, if there's no ontological distinction between them or something of the sort, then yeah it reads as CC is stronger/more potent because it has the memetic trait.
Maybe that's explained further somewhere else on why that distinction is more fundamental for its superiority than the Punishing virus "empty shell" version.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I'm essentially saying these things, like Lamia transcendence statement or the other layers beyond 3, need something more to explain why it isn't just stronger resistance/potency.

That's not at all what it says though? They explicitly state that stronger potency can function as a layer? I'm confused.

As the Hax page notes, layers are just one form of potency and ultimately one pretty much has to compare feats to feats.

Those other two examples literally aren't referring to layers qualifying or not, it is strictly referring to the discussion revolving layers in things like vs matches. They are two separate things. This is blatantly explained right here lmao

Generally, as far as I remember, we treat resistances according to tier. The resistance needs to have evidence of working against an ability of a certain potency (AP). You can also have layers of resistance within that level of potency.

Like this here, it outright says how they're getting hit twice as hard by the twins and the Mother, nothing to do with the quality of the hax's superiority.

Yeah it looks like you are misunderstanding the layers staff CRT bro, it is consistently stated by multiple staff that potency = layers, just that not all layers are inherently superior to all forms of potency. Which once again, was something they were referring to for vs matches more than anything it is also verbatim stated in the thread that layers can be quantitative and not qualitative.

I don't think so. I don't know much from the verse, but reading your description, CC is the original form of the Red Tide, if there's no ontological distinction between them or something of the sort, then yeah it reads as CC is stronger/more potent because it has the memetic trait.

I think you really need to re-read the layered hax CRT again, preferably starting from here. Which just blatantly is explained by DT that layers can be quantitative and are a form of potency, if you want me to be extra firm in showing just how many staff have agreed and said this.

• Vietthai explains it
• SpaceMan clarifies it multiple times
• Finepoint agrees with what SpaceMan & DT said
• Godernet agrees with the previous points
• Agnaa agrees with the previous points
• Ant agrees with the previous points

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Literally not a single staff ever agreed with the proposal, they simply turned it into fixing how layers are treated between verses and further clarified that things that increase via magnitude (such as heat) wouldn't qualify for layers and even that was stated that it could, just that it would heavily depend on the context of said fiction/feat.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Yeah, the layers as an idea is ambiguous but the key point I remembered personally was the fact that you need to be completely immune from certain hax regardless how potent it is. If it shows signs of resistance being overcame then it doesn't count as a layer.

 

[Arkenis]

That's not at all what it says though? They explicitly state that stronger potency can function as a layer? I'm confused.

Read the next part “ultimately one pretty much has to compare feats to feats”. "It stronger" won't matter when another character has more qualitative distinctions backing up their layers.

Those other two examples literally aren't referring to layers qualifying or not, it is strictly referring to the discussion revolving layers in things like vs matches. They are two separate things. This is blatantly explained right here lmao

Layers only matter in vs match. How you're not understanding that is hilarious.

Yeah it looks like you are misunderstanding the layers staff CRT bro, it is consistently stated by multiple staff that potency = layers, just that not all layers are inherently superior to all forms of potency. Which once again, was something they were referring to for vs matches more than anything it is also verbatim stated in the thread that layers can be quantitative and not qualitative.

Then you're layering is meaningless LMAO. Yours is just ONE example, it does not account for anything else and is barely explained.

I think you really need to re-read the layered hax CRT again, preferably starting from here. Which just blatantly is explained by DT that layers can be quantitative and are a form of potency, if you want me to be extra firm in showing just how many staff have agreed and said this.

Heck, there is no reason to believe that all "layers" signify the same gap either, which is why I always say that feats should be compared not the damn numbers.
So, ultimately, whether you consider quantitative increases as layers or as potency that can be equivalent to layers is pretty much just a semantics game.

Reread this.

I am not at all saying basic numbered layering doesn't count. Remember this?

Reread what they're saying, they mention like three times how simply number layering shouldn't be the determiner for actual quality of the resistance/potency.

"Shouldn't be the determiner" not that it CANT be a determiner.

This is why I'm saying shit like CC's layer should be further explained why it even matters, cause just saying "it stronger" won't matter in a match when another character shows something with greater qualitative difference.

This is why I said Lamia's transcendence statement should be further explained cause otherwise "stronger" won't matter in a match when another character shows something with greater qualitative difference.

Reread this

While this is an accurate representation of layer numbers, it would be questionable to assume that the potency increase between a level 1 and a level 3 spatial magic skill in the first setting is superior to the potency increase between regular magic and angelic super magic in the second setting. The former may have more layers, but it is worthy of debate whether one layer of the latter kind may be worth several of the former kind.

Your layering just needs more explanations besides "it stronger" otherwise it'll be argued/challenged if the opposite character can be proven to have more qualitative superior layering than just "lol my character got more numbers"

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Layers only matter in vs match. How you're not understanding that is hilarious.

Bro is so battle boarding brained he can't even understand that layers matter for indexing, this is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. On top of you thinking layers were an ontological thing, I have no reason to continue discussing this with you. I'll put you down for disagree.

 

[Arkenis]

Bro is so battle boarding brained he can't even understand that layers matter for indexing, this is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. On top of you thinking layers were an ontological thing, I have no reason to continue discussing this with you. I'll put you down for disagree.

“On top of you thinking layers were an ontological thing,”

Never said layers themselves were ontological things, I said “if there’s no ontological distinction between the Red Tide and CC”. But thx for proving you aren’t reading properly.

CC is the original form of the Red Tide, if there's no ontological distinction between them or something of the sort, then yeah it reads as CC is stronger/more potent because it has the memetic trait.

 

[SweetDao]

Chill out guys, just agree to disagree

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Never said layers themselves were ontological things, I said “if there’s no ontological distinction between the Red Tide and CC”. But thx for proving you aren’t reading properly.

If layers themselves aren't ontological things why would it matter if there is no ontological distinction between the Red Tide & CC?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

That last part was uncalled for why so stand offish? I've refuted the relevant stuff you've said using staff's own points, if you seriously wanna argue against it then go comment in the CRT that's ongoing. I have taken your criticisms regarding the earlier points, and am currently discussing either removing them and putting them in a separate CRT as to not confuse people since it's a lot to digest.

 

[Arkenis]

If layers themselves aren't ontological things why would it matter if there is no ontological distinction between the Red Tide & CC?

Because it would help to qualify the qualitative superiority compared to its previous layers and to other things within matches.

Take DT’s example for the spatial magic. One’s regular magic, the other is done by an angelic being and its superior whatever else he said. That is an ontological distinction I’m referring to.

That last part was uncalled for why so stand offish? I've refuted the relevant stuff you've said using staff's own points, if you seriously wanna argue against it then go comment in the CRT that's ongoing. I have taken your criticisms regarding the earlier points, and am currently discussing either removing them and putting them in a separate CRT as to not confuse people since it's a lot to digest.

If that was standoffish, you’ve done the same by dismissing what I’m saying by referring to me as battleboard brained and calling what I said ridiculous when you misinterpreted that part of what I said.

What I’ve been saying is that the layers should have more to them than just “it stronger” due to how people treat layers on the site and in matches, that’s it. No ill will here, not tryna be mean or rude.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Because it would help to qualify the qualitative superiority compared to its previous layers and to other things within matches.

Take DT’s example for the spatial magic. One’s regular magic, the other is done by an angelic being and its superior whatever else he said. That is an ontological distinction I’m referring to.

If layers don't have to be ontological why would you bring it up at all? And your example with DT is missing key context because what he was saying is that as a result of one being regular spatial magic and the other being angelic spatial magic that you can argue it's layers can be higher in the context of another verse where layers = levels. Not that such a distinction needs to be made in a verse in order to qualify, the fact he even brought up levels in 1 verse can = layers should make this point of potency and "strength" clear I would think?

If that was standoffish, you’ve done the same by dismissing what I’m saying by referring to me as battleboard brained and calling what I said ridiculous when you misinterpreted that part of what I said.

You told me that layers only matter in vs matches, I called you battle board brained because what you were using to argue their relevance was battle boarding, if it only mattered in vs matches and not for indexing why would it be indexed on the site in the hax section and not under SBA or some other battle boarding focus category? However if you took that as standoffish my bad, I was just saying "I think there's a misunderstanding" or "I think you need to re-read the blog" and I even said I took what you mentioned and was actively discussing how we can change/modify the CRT so I'm not dismissing you at all

What I’ve been saying is that the layers should have more to them than just “it stronger” due to how people treat layers on the site and in matches, that’s it. No ill will here, not tryna be mean or rude.

Alr man it's cool, I put you down for disagree

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I mean, it can still be layers

Like DT made an example of the leveling layers yet argues that their metric doesn't always mean it is better because again, it is just by level
Meanwhile, the 2nd example is more about the fundamental difference of 2 kinds of magic

And those sound like potency for the first example, yet still something DT says both are still 2 cases of accurate display of layering

What I’ve been saying is that the layers should have more to them than just “it stronger” due to how people treat layers on the site and in matches, that’s it. No ill will here, not tryna be mean or rude.

But DT's example says otherwise.

It is irrelevant how people treat layers if they incorrectly do so

You can write layers as long as it lines up with how layering should be done according to hax page

But when it comes to versus match up it will be handled case by case rather than numbers vs numbers

One of the main points of the CRT you linked is to remove the reliance on layer numbers because people keep using it as a metric, but layers can be loosely defined depending on the verse. which is the problem because people started viewing layers as the be all defining metrics

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Bump

 

[Reiner04]

Updated page is fine.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Updated page is fine.

Would you kindly be able to mention some staff

 

[Arkenis]

What's with the "countless d" thing? Is that like for everyone's hax also?

 

[Reiner04]

Would you kindly be able to mention some staff

@Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Dalesean027 @Nierre

Your opinion on the proposal will be appreciated

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

What's with the "countless d" thing? Is that like for everyone's hax also?

Negative, that is purely HDE & HDM for the core nature of the PV itself. Characters would still have to be shown manip it to that degree otherwise they won't have it

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Negative, that is purely HDE & HDM for the core nature of the PV itself. Characters would still have to be shown manip it to that degree otherwise they won't have it

Why lyin' bro?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

OP proposals look AOK from a glance.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Bump

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Bump

 

[Furina003]

seem fine, agree

 

[SuperSonicTL]

seem fine, agree

Aight, time to wrap this thread i suppose @AlipheeseXIV

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Aight, time to wrap this thread i suppose @AlipheeseXIV

 

[Duedate8898]

OP, your blog is far too long. It looks mostly fine so far but I do have a few issues. Still not done yet, just wished to make the thread aware I was working on reviewing this

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

OP, your blog is far too long.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I really wish I could shorten it, but like there was so much work I had to do because I waited so long for scans and the story to progress. My fault lmao

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I taught you better man... Smh...

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I taught you better man... Smh...

Me when I lie

 

[Duedate8898]

Ok! I read it all, anything I don't comment on, I believe is good to go in regards to the blog.

Higher Dimension Existence is fine, I am unsure exactly where you're getting the 6d from as all the scans you provided don't show why we'd consider it more than 5-D (if we're treating time as a forth dimension) Nor where the potentially countless comes from.

All the conceptual manipulation also isn't making a lot of sense since all the provided scans, don't ever mention the word concept from my checking. And since the universe appears to rely on information Type 2 as its fundamental basis, I'm not seeing where the conceptual manipulation comes in.

Limited Power Nullification should actually just be technology manipulation which can effecitvely work as Power Null, so it should say Limited Power Nullification via Technology manipulation or something like that.

The base resistance to extrasensory manipulation doesn't make the most sense to me as humans don't naturally have extrasensory perception and technology normally doesn't have so as well. I imagine the verse might have some tech which possess such abilities but you're going to need to provide scans of that to qualify for it I think.

Supernatural Luck I don't think has enough justification without there being more scans which paint these characters as being strangely lucky. The requirement of favorable opportunities and conditions to become Ascendant isn't enough I believe to get the ability of Supernatural Luck. That's just them showcasing luck

Chaos Manipulation for the Red Tide I also don't think has enough support. It being chaotic in its form I don't think qualifies for it manipulating chaos. I do think Chaos Contamination does qualify however.

Everything else, looks good as far as I can tell

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Ok! I read it all, anything I don't comment on, I believe is good to go in regards to the blog.

Higher Dimension Existence is fine, I am unsure exactly where you're getting the 6d from as all the scans you provided don't show why we'd consider it more than 5-D (if we're treating time as a forth dimension) Nor where the potentially countless comes from.

That's from the existing profiles, they were accepted in this CRT

All the conceptual manipulation also isn't making a lot of sense since all the provided scans, don't ever mention the word concept from my checking. And since the universe appears to rely on information Type 2 as its fundamental basis, I'm not seeing where the conceptual manipulation comes in.

You're free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the word "concept" doesn't specifically have to be name dropped so long as the feats align with the description and role of the ability. If you need more evidence though, I'm happy to provide that if you deem it necessary

Limited Power Nullification should actually just be technology manipulation which can effecitvely work as Power Null, so it should say Limited Power Nullification via Technology manipulation or something like that.

Yeah sure, I thought limited power null already covered limiting/nullifying technology so I just added it but this is fine

The base resistance to extrasensory manipulation doesn't make the most sense to me as humans don't naturally have extrasensory perception and technology normally doesn't have so as well. I imagine the verse might have some tech which possess such abilities but you're going to need to provide scans of that to qualify for it I think.

Yeah, the technology they were using was made with the thought of being able to detect the PV seeing as they were literally experimenting with it in their lab, another pretty blatant example is how Shorthalt (a Construct) wasn't able to detect the red tide without his equipment (since he was kidnapped) yet characters like Liv Lux can sense it from as far as 10 kilometers away using her own Construct tech

Supernatural Luck I don't think has enough justification without there being more scans which paint these characters as being strangely lucky. The requirement of favorable opportunities and conditions to become Ascendant isn't enough I believe to get the ability of Supernatural Luck. That's just them showcasing luck

If the limited is too much, can remove it yeah. I added it there to see how it'd go

Chaos Manipulation for the Red Tide I also don't think has enough support. It being chaotic in its form I don't think qualifies for it manipulating chaos. I do think Chaos Contamination does qualify however.

I do not believe you have to manipulate chaos in order to obtain unpredictability? As it's just the act of possessing a fundamentally chaotic nature, can correct me if I'm wrong. As for Chaos Contamination, can you clarify why you believe it wouldn't qualify even though it shows feats of being called a system of chaos and what I believe to be fairly textbook randomization. Not to mention the added fact that the PV has always existed

Everything else, looks good as far as I can tell

Nice, appreciate you for your feedback

 

[Vietthai96]

Forgot this thread evaluation request, anyway

You're free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the word "concept" doesn't specifically have to be name dropped so long as the feats align with the description and role of the ability. If you need more evidence though, I'm happy to provide that if you deem it necessary

You don't need to, yes, but the issue is from what the evidence showing, Information type 2 already do the job similar to that of concept, being fundamental underlying component of everything, so you need to prove these information also being conceptual, or can define concept

Yeah sure, I thought limited power null already covered limiting/nullifying technology so I just added it but this is fine

This is just Limited Technology hax

I do not believe you have to manipulate chaos in order to obtain unpredictability? As it's just the act of possessing a fundamentally chaotic nature, can correct me if I'm wrong. As for Chaos Contamination, can you clarify why you believe it wouldn't qualify even though it shows feats of being called a system of chaos and what I believe to be fairly textbook randomization. Not to mention the added fact that the PV has always existed

I don't see chaos hax from red tide either, from the scan it seems like the Red Tide is just something that is chaotic, and hard to comprehend, not follow some fixed pattern. Not really literal Chaos

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

You don't need to, yes, but the issue is from what the evidence showing, Information type 2 already do the job similar to that of concept, being fundamental underlying component of everything, so you need to prove these information also being conceptual, or can define concept

Bro finally showed up, no shot. Anyways yeah, I'm in the process of typing up smth to define this thanks for the feedback (they do function very similarly within the verse)

This is just Limited Technology hax

I don't see chaos hax from red tide either, from the scan it seems like the Red Tide is just something that is chaotic, and hard to comprehend, not follow some fixed pattern. Not really literal Chaos

Well that's fine then, I never thought you had to be literal chaos in order to just qualify for unpredictability since it mainly mentions just having a fundamentally chaotic nature that thwarts intuitive and analytical abilities I got it though. What are your thoughts regarding randomization for CC? The same?