Ben 10/Gen Rex: Metaphysical additions [Staff Vote Needed]

[Hellformer]

Introduction​

So basically this thread is meant to add metaphysical abilities for Ben 10/Gen Rex and to prove that information is superior to concepts (inverse).

The Alpha Rune​

Concept (Type 2 [Magic/Mana]; The Alpha Rune is the secret true name of magic, granting its wielder absolute control over legerdomain and magic itself. It is stated to be keeper of the true name of Charmcaster's realm (legerdomain), a source of ultimate power and as old as time itself. Magic, also referred to as Mana, is the hidden mystical life energy or force, the soul and essence of every living being, that permeates all of nature. Charmcaster defines magic as manipulation of secret names of things to change their functionality. Now since the Alpha Rune itself is the secret true name of magic which grants absolute power of over magic itself, the Manipulation of its true name must function in the same way.)

Basically;
Alpha rune is secret true name of magic which grants power over magic itself -> magic is secret true name of things which grants its user powers over things -> Alpha rune is secret true name of all true names and grants its user power to manipulate true names

It was shown when Charmcaster manipulated the secret true name of 'Door to Anywhere' which changed its function from being "mystic crossroads to all dimensions" to only gate of Legerdomain and locked for anyone who doesn't knows its true name.

Which proves that manipulation of True names affects the nature of named things.

The Annihilargh​

Information (Type 2 [Space, time, matter, energy, gravity, elementals, mechanicals, magnetism]; The Contumelia created the Annihilargh as an experiment from their computers, which could be altered, just as Maltruant was able to modify the Annihilargh to create a universe in his own image. Maltruant wanted to create the infinite Timestream via his own Annihilargh and the timestream itself has space, time, matter, energy, gravity, elementals, mechanicals, magnetism, etc as building blocks of the entire structure.)

Information > Concepts (Inverse)​

• When the entire timestream was destroyed, leaving only one timeline, the CTB wave consequently wiped out the respective Ledgerdomains of each timeline, which contained all the mana and true names of beings within that particular timeline along with the Alpha Rune. Yet, the universe still existed, showing that these concepts aren't the core of reality. Instead, what truly matters is the information underlying everything, since prior to creation, the Contumelia created the Annihilargh as an experiment from their computers, which could be altered, just as Maltruant was able to modify the Annihilargh to create a universe in his own image. And to truly destroy the universe, one would have to go back to its origin and prevent the Annihilargh from ever going off, proving that the very foundation of everything isn't a concept, but the information that gave rise to those concepts in the first place. (This is basically the plot of the final arc of Ben 10).
• Summarising the above point + Timestream being composed of information:
  • The information within the Annihilargh contains concepts like Alpha Rune, which makes information more encompassing and fundamental than concepts themselves.
  • Everything within the timestream is made up of fundamental building blocks/information which includes the Alpha Rune thereby making Information more encompassing than concepts. Hence any higher order information which behaves like a concept would be conceptual as well.
• As per Professor Paradox, the Chrononavigator can destroy the timestream, without suggesting any damage to the Annihilargh Universe, implying that the Universe doesn't depend on the existence of timestream.
• Therefore the information in the Annihilargh doesn't depend on the concepts (Alpha Rune), thereby making information superior to concepts within Ben 10.
• Hence the information (Type 2) in Annihilarrgh would be a concept (type 1) of same properties as well.

The Meta Nanites ​

Concept (Type 1 [Space, Time, Matter, Anti-matter, Energy, Gravity, Mechanicals, Elementals, etc]; The Meta Nanites control space, time, matter, anti-matter, energy, gravity, magnetism, elementals, mechanicals of the fabric of the Universe/timestream along with everything else that makes the Universe run, via a cipher written inside each nanite which grants them jurisdiction over the building blocks of the Universe. The user of meta nanites can rip apart the fabric of the Universe which means they can exist independently of the structure it governs.)

Small explanation: Basically they function something like; in order to alter gravity, you would have to alter the "cipher" written inside the gravity nanite. The said cipher in this case, would be the "concept" of gravity. Same logic applies for space, time, matter, anti-matter, etc.

(Kindly read the above explanation before jumping to any conclusion)

Conclusion​

• Alpha Rune is Type 2 Concept (It's users would have type 2 CM).
• Annihilargh and the Contumelia's computers encompass Type 2 Information and Type 1 concept consequently.
• Information is superior to concepts.
• The information in Meta Nanites are Type 1 concepts (It's users would have type 1 CM).

Votes tally​

Agree	@Reiner04 (Everything except CM type 1 for Alpha rune and Meta nanites being concept) @SomebodyData @Random-Helper323 (Alpha Rune)
Disagree
Neutral	@Firestorm808 @Random-Helper323 (Annihilargh and Dominion Code)

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

Basically from one of the clip you've used, we can say that Meta Nanites control reality via a cypher (each fundamental building block universe has it's own cypher), we can just say that the Cypher written inside the Meta Nanites interacts with reality to control it, which should not be possible unless the reality itself is not composed of information itself on some extent. This can be further backed up by various things indicating that physical reality itself can be non-physical such as in Ben 10 classic (Game Over), Ben and Gwen got downloaded into simulated world of video game, in Ben 10 Destroy All Aliens movie, Ben, Gwen, Tetrax and some other physical things again got downloaded into simulated world inside the Omnitrix. This shows that physical reality is somehow compatible with simulated realities composed of mathmatical codes/ information. So I think it makes sense and I agree.

 

[Lort15]

You are cooking again huh mana type 1 concept seems fine to me espically with the statement given as old as time itself also Annihilarrgh looks good as well as it already have limited information manipulation on it's profile, so the Annihilarrgh universes are made up with information as well i guess, seems fine to me i will wait and look for counter arguments but for now agreed.

 

[Hellformer]

You are cooking again huh mana type 1 concept seems fine to me espically with the statement given as old as time itself also Annihilarrgh looks good as well as it already have limited information manipulation on it's profile, so the Annihilarrgh universes are made up with information as well i guess, seems fine to me i will wait and look for counter arguments but for now agreed.

Alpha Rune, not Mana.

 

[Reiner04]

Reason why Alpha rune is not accepted as type 1 concept is because changing or manipulation of it doesn't affect the named thing basic structure. Infact, name of legerdomain was continously changed and yet there was no visible effect on the structure of legerdomain.

 

[Hellformer]

Reason why Alpha rune is not accepted as type 1 concept is because changing or manipulation of it doesn't affect the named thing basic structure.

When? There are statements that say that the Alpha Rune grants absolute power of legerdomain and magic.

Infact, name of legerdomain was continously changed and yet there was no visible effect on the structure of legerdomain.

You don't necessarily have to see visible changes though, there might be some internal changes which we don't know about. So assuming those changes to be visible is nitpicking one functionality and expecting that to be changed when that can not be the case unless proven otherwise.

 

[Hellformer]

Btw the Alpha Rune is already a type 2 concept right? Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Reiner04]

When? There are statements that say that the Alpha Rune grants absolute power of legerdomain and magic.

That doesn’t mean it is a concept or anything of the sort. One can have absolute control over something without necessarily having to be the concept of that thing. For instance, the Chrononavigator gives its wielder absolute power over the entire timestream; that doesn’t mean it is the concept. Names, specifically, can be an in-verse specific type of P&A, where a name provides its wielder absolute power over the named thing, but a concept is far broader.

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

This is the most important criteria for concepts.

You don't necessarily have to see visible changes though, there might be some internal changes which we don't know about. So assuming those changes to be visible is nitpicking one functionality expecting that to happen when that can not be the case unless proven otherwise.

Well, we judge things based on what we see and don't dwell on the rhetoric of what might be happening among the infinite possibilities that exist. There was visibly no change, or there was nothing they said that implied there was some sort of change. That is the essential and most important part of the concept, and Wiki is pretty strict in this regard.

 

[Hellformer]

That doesn’t mean it is a concept or anything of the sort. One can have absolute control over something without necessarily having to be the concept of that thing. For instance, the Chrononavigator gives its wielder absolute power over the entire timestream; that doesn’t mean it is the concept. Names, specifically, can be an in-verse specific type of P&A, where a name provides its wielder absolute power over the named thing, but a concept is far broader.



This is the most important criteria for concepts.


Well, we judge things based on what we see and don't dwell on the rhetoric of what might be happening among the infinite possibilities that exist. There was visibly no change, or there was nothing they said that implied there was some sort of change. That is the essential and most important part of the concept, and Wiki is pretty strict in this regard.

Regarding this, we know that the true name of the Ledgerdomain's door, has shown to change the functionality of the door, which is textbook CM at the very least (keeping it's type aside)
So the Alpha Rune which also grants absolute power over magic, must function in the same way since it is also the "true name" of magic.
Such an example doesn't exist for the Chrononavigator so the example doesn't help disprove anything.

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

You can judge based on what you see but you can't arbitrarily assume though? Like the alteration of true name of the door didn't change its physical appearance, it simply changed its functioning. So your logic would still be flawed.

Btw the Alpha Rune is already a type 2 concept right? Correct me if I'm wrong

???????

 

[Lort15]

Alpha Rune, not Mana.

MB keyboard issues

 

[Reiner04]

Btw the Alpha Rune is already a type 2 concept right? Correct me if I'm wrong

Uh well, nvm then. I will not comment on something already accepted and since i didn't accepted type 2, i will refrain from voting for type 1. Info being deeper than everything else in the verse should be fine.

 

[Lort15]

I might be wrong but uh like wasn't there something like if Alpha rune is stolen the ledgerdomain would collapse like basically also yeah it has abstract existence as a concept type 2

Alpha Rune

The Alpha Rune is the secret true name of magic, allowing the wearer full control over magic itself and dominion over Legerdomain, the dimension from which all of the magic in the universe flows. It's true age is unknown, though Charmcaster claims that it is as old as time itself. Tire: 2-A...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Lort15]

Off topic but i might upgrade Alpha rune's LS explanation pretty sure that some ppl might get confused when they read that

 

[Hellformer]

Uh well, nvm then. I will not comment on something already accepted and since i didn't accepted type 2, i will refrain from voting for type 1. Info being deeper than everything else in the verse should be fine.

So you agree with information > concept and meta nanites being type 1 except type 1 nature of Alpha Rune?

Also would you be fine if I argue Type 2 nature of Alpha Rune with the same reasoning? Please do let me know.

 

[Hellformer]

I might be wrong but uh like wasn't there something like if Alpha rune is stolen the ledgerdomain would collapse like basically also yeah it has abstract existence as a concept type 2

Alpha Rune

The Alpha Rune is the secret true name of magic, allowing the wearer full control over magic itself and dominion over Legerdomain, the dimension from which all of the magic in the universe flows. It's true age is unknown, though Charmcaster claims that it is as old as time itself. Tire: 2-A...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Not legerdomain, only the realm that was made by Alpha Rune (which in that case was Addwaitya's Palace or smth)

 

[Reiner04]

So you agree with information > concept and meta nanites being type 1 except type 1 nature of Alpha Rune?

I dissgree with the existence of concept within the verse to begin with, but since its already accepted i won't argue or vote over it.

 

[Hellformer]

I dissgree with the existence of concept within the verse to begin with, but since its already accepted i won't argue or vote over it.

I kinda explained by an example....but anyways thanks for your vote!
Could you please tag other staffs as well?

 

[Reiner04]

I kinda explained by an example....but anyways thanks for your vote!
Could you please tag other staffs as well?

@Firestorm808 @FinePoint @Qawsedf234 @Imaginym @Elizhaa

Your opinion will be appreciated.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I might be wrong but uh like wasn't there something like if Alpha rune is stolen the ledgerdomain would collapse like basically also yeah it has abstract existence as a concept type 2

Alpha Rune

The Alpha Rune is the secret true name of magic, allowing the wearer full control over magic itself and dominion over Legerdomain, the dimension from which all of the magic in the universe flows. It's true age is unknown, though Charmcaster claims that it is as old as time itself. Tire: 2-A...

vsbattles.fandom.com

It actually outdated. I would fix it but for now, Alpha Rune doesn't has Conceptual Type 2

 

[Hellformer]

It actually outdated. I would fix it but foe now. Alpha Rune doesn't has Conceptual Type 2

I'll argue with this thread itself. Either type 1 or 2 would suffice.

 

[Yanina92]

I agree obviously

 

[Reiner04]

It actually outdated. I would fix it but for now, Alpha Rune doesn't has Conceptual Type 2

Well that changes everything then.

I might be wrong but uh like wasn't there something like if Alpha rune is stolen the ledgerdomain would collapse like basically also yeah it has abstract existence as a concept type 2

Alpha Rune

The Alpha Rune is the secret true name of magic, allowing the wearer full control over magic itself and dominion over Legerdomain, the dimension from which all of the magic in the universe flows. It's true age is unknown, though Charmcaster claims that it is as old as time itself. Tire: 2-A...

vsbattles.fandom.com

That would mean the Alpha Rune just stabilizes Legerdomain, but to actually be treated as a concept, 'alteration of names' would have to change the fundamentality of the object itself. For example, if the concept of a circle is altered, it will change the very 'circleness' within the universe as a property itself. This means that 'circleness' as we know it wouldn't stay the same (what it would become depends on what type of alteration it was). Here in this case though, nothing is being altered, Alpha rune was merely stablizer of the dimension absence of which resulted in collpase of the dimension. Same as those mystery object genres where if the object is displaced the structure they are contained it collapses.

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

 

[Hellformer]

Well that changes everything then.

That would mean the Alpha Rune just stabilizes Legerdomain, but to actually be treated as a concept, 'alteration of names' would have to change the fundamentality of the object itself. For example, if the concept of a circle is altered, it will change the very 'circleness' within the universe as a property itself. This means that 'circleness' as we know it wouldn't stay the same (what it would become depends on what type of alteration it was). Here in this case though, nothing is being altered, Alpha rune was merely stablizer of the dimension absence of which resulted in collpase of the dimension. Same as those mystery object genres where if the object is displaced the structure they are contained it collapses.

Being stolen doesn't mean the structure necessarily has to destabilize though, it might affect its type and reduce it to type 2 but definitely not change its conceptual nature. That's because it grants absolute power over legerdomain and functions the same way as true name of door which changes its functioning.

 

[Reiner04]

Being stolen doesn't mean the structure necessarily has to destabilize though, it might affect its type and reduce it to type 2 but definitely not change its conceptual nature.

Beinb stolen just simply means what it is, stolen, its absence, as far as can be seen, is destablizing the half of the dimension. Thats all about it. If there is any thing more deep and deatailed involved then it has to be mentioned specifically within the vserse.

true name of door which changes its functioning.

Can you elaborate on it btw?

 

[Simsalamim]

Nice! agree

 

[Hellformer]

Beinb stolen just simply means what it is, stolen, its absence, as far as can be seen, is destablizing the half of the dimension. Thats all about it. If there is any thing more deep and deatailed involved then it has to be mentioned specifically within the vserse.

That did happen but it doesn't disprove anything regarding the conceptual nature of Alpha Rune

Can you elaborate on it btw?

Here's the clip
So basically Charmcaster defines magic as manipulation of secret names of things, in this case she talks about the secret name of door, which when changed, alters the functionality of the door i.e. it gets locked. So unless and until someone doesn't know its secret name, it won't open. And if charmcaster changes the name again, the previous name won't allow it to open.

Therefore, the secret name of magic, should control the functionality of magic (or mana) itself. This makes the Alpha Rune an impressive concept.

I'd be fine if you agree with it being a type 2 concept, incase you don't find type 1 arguments good enough.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Mana users wouldn't have Conceptual Manipulation due to this, right? Unless if we include Charmcaster or Addwaitya

 

[Hellformer]

Mana users wouldn't have Conceptual Manipulation due to this, right? Unless if we include Charmcaster or Addwaitya

Only Alpha Rune weilders would have CM

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Only Alpha Rune weilders would have CM

Ok so only Charmcaster & Zs'Skayr

 

[Reiner04]

That did happen but it doesn't disprove anything regarding the conceptual nature of Alpha Rune

Here's the clip
So basically Charmcaster defines magic as manipulation of secret names of things, in this case she talks about the secret name of door, which when changed, alters the functionality of the door i.e. it gets locked. So unless and until someone doesn't know its secret name, it won't open. And if charmcaster changes the name again, the previous name won't allow it to open.

Therefore, the secret name of magic, should control the functionality of magic (or mana) itself. This makes the Alpha Rune an impressive concept.

I'd be fine if you agree with it being a type 2 concept, incase you don't find type 1 arguments good enough.

Well it seems manipulation of names can affect the named object. I don't think Type 1 works here unless there is evidence of names existence even after the named object has been erased. I don't have any arguement against it so i am fine with type 2 for now, however, if someone brought some good convincing arguement that did't come to my attention against it then i may reconsider my opinion.

 

[Lort15]

Ok so only Charmcaster & Zs'Skayr

Bro forgot Addwaitya, Aggregor and Paradox

 

[Reiner04]

Only Alpha Rune weilders would have CM

Why won't magic have CM by default?

 

[Reiner04]

Why won't magic have CM by default?

Wait is this works like:

Magic is the secret true names of things -> Alpha rune is the secret true name of magic itself -> Alpha Rune weilders have the power over true names itself and thus can mqnipulate it at will like Charmcaster did with Door to anywhere.

 

[Hellformer]

Why won't magic have CM by default?

Because currently I'm arguing true name of magic to be a type 2 concept, not all true names.

 

[Hellformer]

Wait is this works like:

Magic is the secret true names of things -> Alpha rune is the secret true name of magic itself -> Alpha Rune weilders have the power over true names itself and thus can mqnipulate it at will like Charmcaster did with Door to anywhere.

Yeah

 

[Hellformer]

Well it seems manipulation of names can affect the named object. I don't think Type 1 works here unless there is evidence of names existence even after the named object has been erased. I don't have any arguement against it so i am fine with type 2 for now, however, if someone brought some good convincing arguement that did't come to my attention against it then i may reconsider my opinion.

I'm assuming you agree with the entire CRT except for type 1 Alpha Rune.

 

[Reiner04]

I'm assuming you agree with the entire CRT except for type 1 Alpha Rune.

Yeah, instead of type 1, it will be type 2.

 

[Hellformer]

Yeah, instead of type 1, it will be type 2.

Is it fine if I make a blog to explain why Info > Concepts (with same content as this CRT) so that I can link it to Ben 10 pages with Info Manip?

 

[Reiner04]

Is it fine if I make a blog to explain why Info > Concepts (with same content as this CRT) so that I can link it to Ben 10 pages with Info Manip?

Let the thread be concluded first, those discussions can wait. However just adding an explaination part within the cosmology page (considering how alpha rune and information is tied to existence and Legerdomain) seems to be better choice.

 

[Reiner04]

Concept (Type 1 [Space, Time, Matter, Anti-matter, Energy, Gravity, Mechanicals, Elementals, etc]; The Meta Nanites control space, time, matter, anti-matter, energy, gravity, magnetism, elementals, mechanicals of the fabric of the Universe/timestream along with everything else that makes the Universe run, which serve as building blocks of the Universe. The user of meta nanites can rip apart the fabric of the Universe which means they can exist independently of the structure it governs.)
(Note: The Meta Nanites are already accepted as type 2 Info, so it should be conceptual as well via inverse logic)

Wait. The Meta Nanites wouldn't be concept. To be a concept, they would have to be the concepts that govern objects, not merely control them. All of the things mentioned, such as space, time, and elements, existed prior to the creation of the nanites, proving that the nanites do not govern them. If they do not govern or link to these elements, then whether the universe exists or not shouldn't affect the Meta Nanites, conversely, whether the Meta Nanites exist or not shouldn't affect reality either. Above all, Meta Nanites aren't abstract, they are physical lil machines, unlike True Names.

Concepts that are not abstract, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. Such concepts exist strictly as non-abstract objects and hold no power over anything whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind.