Reject Hierarchy, AKA Social Influence CRT

[Tllmbrg]

Social Influencing

Social Influencing, in simple terms, is the ability to influence a person emotionally, psychologically, and overall, mentally, either to gain an advantage, or have them do certain tasks. This ability is highly advantageous in an intellectual warfare between characters. This ability can have...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Social Position and Reputation: Characters who possess a high level of position in society or are heavily respected in their setting, which allows them to control an individual or a group of people. In cases where a character in question with high position or reputation is being used by another person behind the shadows, the character doesn't qualify for having this kind of influencing.

This should be removed all together for two main reason:
1) Disqualification based on being a puppet ruler or a figurehead makes no sense, since it doesn't alter someone's status at all. Not only is this typically not widely known information, but your actual authority isn't affected by the presence of someone pulling the strings.
2) This type only works if the opposing character knows their status, cares about said status, and is for some reason scared enough of said status to stop fighting them despite Standard Battle Assumptions. So for a site focused on indexing stuff for fights, this type of social influence is completely pointless and too context dependant.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Mr. Bambu @Antvasima @Qawsedf234 @Damage3245

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with this suggested change.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Being good looking or attractive can still be a form of passive charisma. Likewise, OPM King's aura is also within that category. I suppose I sort of agree with the thread's proposal, but unsure if we want to separate charisma as a different power from social influencing.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Being good looking or attractive can still be a form of passive charisma. Likewise, OPM King's aura is also within that category. I suppose I sort of agree with the thread's proposal, but unsure if we want to separate charisma as a different power from social influencing.

???????
Nothing in my CRT is even touching beauty based nor King's natural intimidating aura, that is simply an entirely different matter.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fair enough.

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree with OP. Climbing in ranks absolutely can be a SI feat but just being high-ranked means very little in cross-verse context and isn't really a feat of anything on its own.

Problem is going to be removing the ability for everyone that possesses solely this type.

 

[Da3ggman]

I had always wondered about this, like, in a cross-verse matchup, what influence is someone going to have over someone with this position....if the other character doesn't know about their position in the first place? Definitely agree.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I agree, but shouldn't this move to staff thread?

 

[Naito-desu]

I agree ultimately with this change, although was there really an instance, practically speaking, where this affected a match? I'm not saying we should do nothing, just wondering aloud if this really ever helped any character before lol

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Mr. Bambu @Antvasima @Qawsedf234 @Damage3245

I'm fine with the removal of the social position, but reputation I'm not entirely sure of due to the being a semi-common mechanic in works. Whe they don't apply to vs-matches, the powers themselves are meant to representive of a character within the series itself. So I think that aspect should probably stay.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I'm fine with the removal of the social position, but reputation I'm not entirely sure of due to the being a semi-common mechanic in works. Whe they don't apply to vs-matches, the powers themselves are meant to representive of a character within the series itself. So I think that aspect should probably stay.

But how?
Reputation is strictly speaking an in-verse thing, for a vs context it just does not work unless you do an in-verse match or something, but at that point it's just a matter of personality.

 

[DavidTPPM]

As far as I understand the wikis purpose isn't to just index things for crossverse battles but to accurately depict a character.

If a character has say, power nullfication for some extremely niche power system we still index it on the profile despite it only working within his own universe. Hell energy equalization is specifically made to account for stuff like that at least to an extent.


So I think this should either give us 2 options.
1. Just index it anyway but note on the SI page that this type of SI usually only works in characters from the same verse.
Or
2. Include standard knowledge of a characters reputation/position for SI users into SBA (possibly as an optional choice similar to speed equalization)

I think we already kidna do number 2 since I've definitely seen vs threads that mention characters having this type of knowledge

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also agree. This one is silly, not intrinsically based on SI. I sign off on its removal.

 

[Tllmbrg]

As far as I understand the wikis purpose isn't to just index things for crossverse battles but to accurately depict a character.

If a character has say, power nullfication for some extremely niche power system we still index it on the profile despite it only working within his own universe. Hell energy equalization is specifically made to account for stuff like that at least to an extent.


So I think this should either give us 2 options.
1. Just index it anyway but note on the SI page that this type of SI usually only works in characters from the same verse.
Or
2. Include standard knowledge of a characters reputation/position for SI users into SBA (possibly as an optional choice similar to speed equalization)

I think we already kidna do number 2 since I've definitely seen vs threads that mention characters having this type of knowledge

We don't try to depict a character 100% accurately, we are trying to index them in a vs context relevant matter. So someone's status is 99% of the time irrelevant, and the times where it is is because someone either did a specific in-verse match-up (So the relation between the characters can be gleamed from their personalities/history, which is not something we necessarily index all of anyways) or because you changed the battle conditions so the latter character knows about it.
Option 2 is just "Hey X character knows about this" which is something that it outside what the page presents.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Anyways if staff has a general agreement over this, how do we want to approach removing this type from pages?
Just have people comb through the category and see what pages need it removed?

 

[KingTempest]

i agree with it regarding outside of verse unless we just say limited and note that it's only inverse reputation

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, i agree with this removal

 

[Qawsedf234]

Reputation is strictly speaking an in-verse thing,

The profiles are made from a strictly in-universe setting. Vsmatches are irrelevant to PnA statistics and you can have powers and abilities that purely work against your respective universe.

for a vs context it just does not work unless you do an in-verse match or something, but at that point it's just a matter of personality.

Since the power is social influencing, it means you can significantly effect a social event based on some non-physical characteristic. Having a strong reputation, or even leadership albeit to a much lesser degree, will have an effect on that power.

So overall I don't see the point in reputation being removed from the list. Social position imo relies on reputation to be effective in the first place, so I think that aspect is redundant for the section.

 

[KingTempest]

The profiles are made from a strictly in-universe setting. Vsmatches are irrelevant to PnA statistics and you can have powers and abilities that purely work against your respective universe.


Since the power is social influencing, it means you can significantly effect a social event based on some non-physical characteristic. Having a strong reputation, or even leadership albeit to a much lesser degree, will have an effect on that power.

So overall I don't see the point in reputation being removed from the list. Social position imo relies on reputation to be effective in the first place, so I think that aspect is redundant for the section.

should it be limited then? or should we just expand on the reputation section to note something akin to "those unaware of the reputation of said characters is unlikely to fall under said social influence"?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This should be a staff discussion.

 

[KingTempest]

This should be a staff discussion.

I can handle this
Edit: Switched

 

[Vietthai96]

My issue is different, that i don't understand why Reputation is even considered a "power". Charisma and Leadership make sense for being ability, but Reputation?, if it is considered as ability, then it is an ability equal to that of Environment Destruction, an indirect, chain reaction ability that you get a consquence of many other things

 

[Random-Helper323]

Reputation is a weird "ability" to have, given it's really more of an effect on other people than an ability attached to the person. It also has no effect whatsoever on someone who has never heard of them or, ironically, knows more about them.

 

[Qawsedf234]

should we just expand on the reputation section to note something akin to "those unaware of the reputation of said characters is unlikely to fall under said social influence"?

I say just change it to this:

Reputation: Characters who possess a high level of notoriety within their setting, which allows them to control or influence an individual or a group of people primarily through this notoriety. The main qualification for this power is a consistent showing that a character's reputation influences other character action based on what they're perceived to be able to do. This power, as suggested by the name, is only effective when other characters are aware of the person and their accolades in the first place.

 

[KingTempest]

I say just change it to this:

I think this works

 

[Random-Helper323]

I say just change it to this:

That could be alright. It's still weird since it's not really an ability so much. I guess we still need to list it, since characters like Hercule from Dragon Ball literally use it as a primary way of (avoiding) fighting.

 

[Planck69]

Qawdsef's revised version looks good.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Qawdsef's

You know, thinking about it, "Quad-Sef" is a significantly more pronouncable of a name compared to "Quaw-Said-F"

 

[Vietthai96]

Qaw's name getting butchered everytime

I say just change it to this:

Ngl, i still don't have good feeling for Reputation, but i can get behind this updated version

 

[KingTempest]

The Qawest

 

[Random-Helper323]

The Qawest

QawQaw! QawQaw!

Joking, but honestly, Qawsedf isn't that hard to type. Admittedly I do pronounce the F as a separate syllable in my head, literally Qaw-Sed-Eff.

Update: sorry, let's stop derailing.

 

[Tllmbrg]

The profiles are made from a strictly in-universe setting. Vsmatches are irrelevant to PnA statistics and you can have powers and abilities that purely work against your respective universe.

They're made to index the verse for a verse context though.
This isn't like say, power null that only works on X group inside a verse, reputation is essentially just a title you have. Whatever impact you have is reliant on factors we don't often index in great detail if at all.

 

[Qawsedf234]

They're made to index the verse for a verse context though

And it works for a verse context. Mr. Satan canonically influences people through his reputation. Same with King from OPM or Superman from DC.

reputation is essentially just a title you have. Whatever impact you have is reliant on factors we don't often index in great detail if at all.

Social Influencing in general a list of soft factors not directly tied to a super natural ability. I don't see why Reputation wouldn't qualify within the power.

 

[Tllmbrg]

And it works for a verse context. Mr. Satan canonically influences people through his reputation. Same with King from OPM or Superman from DC.

I misspelled the word, meant vs. not verse.

Social Influencing in general a list of soft factors not directly tied to a super natural ability. I don't see why Reputation wouldn't qualify within the power.

Because literally any reputation can give you this type of thing to boot. Should we give social influence to anyone who's considered a legendary figure in their verse?

 

[Qawsedf234]

misspelled the word, meant vs. not verse.

To my knowledge, while they are meant to be systematized using common stuff, vs matches themselves are not the end goal of the site. You can have a power tbat only works against your universe and nothing else, and we'd still classify the power and put it within the profile.

Should we give social influence to anyone who's considered a legendary figure in their verse?

If said reputation is used in a conscious or plot important fashion, yes. Mr. Satan would get it for those reasons, but the President from Armageddon wouldn't.

 

[Tllmbrg]

If said reputation is used in a conscious or plot important fashion, yes. Mr. Satan would get it for those reasons, but the President from Armageddon wouldn't.

Why is being plot relevant the factor here, any president/leader of a notable cooperation/other positions of that sort should get this power.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why is being plot relevant the factor here,

You answered your own question. If its not plot relevant than anyone in a leadership position could qualify vs someone with a known reputation that's relevant for indexing.

 

[Tllmbrg]

You answered your own question. If its not plot relevant than anyone in a leadership position could qualify vs someone with a known reputation that's relevant for indexing.

There is no functional difference between a plot important or non-important president though.
That distinction is extremely arbitrary for a power you get from a title rather than anything you do.

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with reputation being something we need to index. Sure it's important to a character in their own series but that doesn't mean it should find its way on the profiles. We don't have powers for "Is a billionaire" or "Knows several languages" or a thousand different things. Hell we STILL don't have a height section on our profiles. As it stands this is extremely fringe information that doesn't matter from the perspective of indexing characters from out standpoint.

You answered your own question. If its not plot relevant than anyone in a leadership position could qualify vs someone with a known reputation that's relevant for indexing.

He really didn't. You yourself said we index from an in-verse perspective, why does plot relevancy matter then?