Town-level Tiersetter Tournament, Round 8: Shujinko vs Himiko Toga

[Naito-desu]

---

STAGE SELECT: 2FORT

---

MATCH RULES

• Speed is equalized by default
• Both start 50 meters apart, SBA otherwise
• Rules are subject to changes on a per-match basis to make them fairer or more interesting
• If a match is deemed inconclusive, the advancement will be decided on a coin toss.
• If a match is stalled due to a lack of votes, the host may declare an outcome at their discretion. These decisions are only for tournament purposes, not for profile additions.

---

Shujinko {7 kilotons}: 8

Himiko Toga {10.08 kilotons}: 7

Incon: 0

 

[Bruhtelho]

i'll reply when I find the time, just doing some IRL stuff right now

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I will reply later too. Here we go again, huh?

 

[koopa3144]

I'll start this out by asking if Shujinko has any good way of tracking Himiko. Shujinko def has the skill advantage and can likely overwhelm Toga in a direct fight, but she can pretty easily evade him with her cracked stealth if he doesn't have a way to track her.

 

[Bruhtelho]

alrighty lets get into this aw shit here we go again

Stats:
so Toga has a slight advantage in AP being 1.4x stronger than Shunjinko but this is likely a small advantage given Shunjinko upscales from his value but given how much endurance/stamina Toga's got since she can push her body and keep fighting despite her insides being broke apart by multiple small explosions means Shunjinko is gonna have a really hard time putting her down. LS is pretty irrelevant since both scale to Class K but Shunjinko is like a lil higher into that rather than being baseline

Range:
so both tend to fight in CQC (i'll go more into this in a second) but both have means to extend their range like Shunjinko's weapons and projectiles well Toga can accurately throw her knifes to slash a man's throat and launch out her Blood Sucking Machine in order to steal an opponents blood thats really about it giving Shunjinko an edge with his weapons and more versatile means of range (even if thats not how he fights usually)

Skill and Experience:
Shunjinko likely has a massive skill and experience advantage over Toga but that doesn't mean Toga is a slouch in that department. Toga has been in combat with a lot of MHA's top tiers and even dealt with opponents who have real formal training such as Ochako who was personality trained in Gunhead Martial Arts, can tag and keep up with Deku and this wasn't just something she did one off, she did it again shortly afterwards with numerous attacks and Deku is someone who is skilled enough to deal with the literal best sniper in Japan, read the movements of opponents far faster than him in the middle of combat, and combat with All For One Shiggy who had over a hundred years of experience built into them, now it should be noted that Deku was ignoring Toga for the most part there and just blocking her attacks rather than facing her head on but its also stated that he likely wouldn't have been able to do that for much longer has Tsuyu and Ochako not been there, in a previous arc she was also able to keep up with Eraser Head, someone who been a pro hero for nearly 10 yrs and has trained himself to be extremely adept in hand-to-hand combat and at a younger age he went toe to toe with Knuckleduster, someone who was so potent in H2H combat that Aizawa thought he had a quirk of sorts despite not having one at all.

thats not to discount Shunjinko tho, he has decades worth of training and fighting experience, has extensive list of martial arts he mastered and was trained under a TON of Mortal Kombat's top tiers like Sub-Zero, Scorpion, Bo' Rai Cho, etc and gained a lot of their abilities from fighting them. so overally Shunjinko has the skill and experience but Toga should be able to adapt to him very quickly given her own extensive catalog

Abilities:
so Shunjinko has a lot of abilities in his kit due to his extensive battles in MK but just based on his Notable Attacks/Techniques he seems to prefer the usage of Scorpion, Sub-Zero, and Raiden's abilities each of which comes with their own by products that'll keep Toga on her toes. onto Toga who is a lot more barebones but she loves to abuse her Stealth Mastery against opponents, she can completely disappear when people are right in front of her with similar reaction speeds, can completely disappear when surrounded by a whole group of people trying to kill her and nearly taking Curious by surprise despite being her surrounded, and did so against Deku on numerous occasions despite him being able to predict his opponents next move all well halting her breathing and her thoughts basically blending into her surroundings and erasing her presence something Shunjinko has no way around. and Toga huge ace in the hole is Twice's blood which if she feels at all pressured, she'll use and start the Sad Man's Parade which is literally thousands of Twice clones being created constantly and we know she uses the blood when pushed to as against Curious, she used Ochako's blood despite it giving her no advantage (she didn't know she could use the people she transforms intos abilities at that point) and when pushed in the final war arc and having to put her faith in Spinner, she used it despite having no idea if he would free Kurogiri and Toga carries fake out Blood on her just in case Shunjinko tried to rush her down (tho he has no idea what those things to do begin with)

Overall
Any H2H encounter with Shunjinko is gonna be really bad for Toga due to his extensive skill and training he's gone through but esp on 2Fort, Toga is gonna have plenty of chances to use her Stealth on Shunjinko and completely take him by surprise as he lacks a mean to actually figure out where she's gone and with her far superior stamina, eventually Shunjinko is gonna be worn out from all the stabbing his body will have to endure, his extensive list of abilities is gonna make things rough on Toga since being frozen (Icy Breeze), shocked (Flying Jinko), or burned (Flaming Fist) are gonna hurt like hell but thanks to her insane endurance she'll likely be able to tough it out or straight up just react in time to them and if Shunjinko begins to overwhelm her too much, she'll instantly drink Twice's blood and overwhelm him with thousands of clones almost instantly

Toga firmly gets my vote.

 

[Bruhtelho]

I'll start this out by asking if Shujinko has any good way of tracking Himiko. Shujinko def has the skill advantage and can likely overwhelm Toga in a direct fight, but she can pretty easily evade him with her cracked stealth if he doesn't have a way to track her.

looking at the profile, not really. he does have Enhanced Senses but the reason isn't even an Enhanced Senses feat and is just fighting blind folded which is a skill feat not a senses feat and can apparently has Ki/Energy Sensing but Toga can erase her presence when in stealth mode and she prolly doesn't have Ki tbh

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Sad Man's Parade GG. That ability is just absurdly busted and unlike in Canon, it will be even more of a problem since Twice's Quirk won't be all ****** up due to her emotions getting the better of her since she's not fighting a Pro-Hero who she has a major grudge against meaning she can make copies of other people that still have their powers.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I mean, I do wanna wait for Shujinko's supporter to come in and rep the dude, but the argument for Toga makes me wanna vote for her.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Just wait for me, I'm editing a metric ton of profiles because one of my CRTs passed today. Do me a favor and wait until tomorrow to vote, please.

 

[Nonynho]

Just wait for me, I'm editing a metric ton of profiles because one of my CRTs passed today. Do me a favor and wait until tomorrow to vote, please.

please get me to vote for THE GOAT character named character lmfao

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Shujinko {7 kilotons}: 0

First of all, the AP value is 7.33 kilotons, not just 7.

Also, Shujinko's upscaling from that value goes:
7.33 Kilotons = Armageddon Shang Tsung < Deadly Alliance Shang Tsung < Quan Chi < Deadly Alliance Scorpion < Deception Scorpion < Shujinko.

I think that's sufficient to at least mostly close the gap, and it's worth noting that Himiko's non-equipment attacks won't work (being 8-A and all). I suppose she may still retain a slight AP advantage, at least initially (more on that later)

so overally Shunjinko has the skill and experience but Toga should be able to adapt to him very quickly given her own extensive catalog

Quick note, Shujinko should be able to do so too, as he can adapt to new fighters very quickly.

Shujinko has many abilities Himiko has no resistance to, like Absolute Zero Ice Manipulation from Sub-Zero, Hellfire that erupts from beneath his opponent from Scorpion, Telekinesis from Kenshi and Ermac (Shujinko's superior LS would be enough to hold her in place), blinding Light Manipulation from Hotaru, can summon lighting from the skys onto his enemies from Nightwold, stun-inducing Banshee Scream from Sindel, and Invisibility from his own stealth (I don't remember who taught him that).

Not to mention that Shujinko can easily close the distance and force a hand-to-hand fight with his Teleportation that he learned from, well a lot of people actually.

Toga huge ace in the hole is Twice's blood which if she feels at all pressured

Very well, then allow me to present Shujinko's ace in the hole, which is a one-two punch.

First of all, as made obvious, he can duplicate powers he learns, but what is notable is that he consistently learns these abilities within single training sessions with others, which entail sparring and whatnot. Basically, if he sees the technique, his mimicry powers allow him to copy it. Himiko's gonna have to worry about plenty of her own techniques used against her, and keep in mind he can use powers from races he doesn't belong to (like Baraka) or born from circumstances he doesn't have to duplicate (like Scoprion's powers despite not being a spectre).

But second of all, he also can gain strength from other warriors and add it to his own, which he used to amp himself to destroy the Kamidogus and defeat Onaga. He doesn't even need to touch them to do this, he just has to choose to do so. Therefore, Toga's less than 1.375 times strength advantage will become Shujinko's more than 1.727 times strength advantage.

 

[Bruhtelho]

First of all, the AP value is 7.33 kilotons, not just 7.

Also, Shujinko's upscaling from that value goes:
7.33 Kilotons = Armageddon Shang Tsung < Deadly Alliance Shang Tsung < Quan Chi < Deadly Alliance Scorpion < Deception Scorpion < Shujinko.

I think that's sufficient to at least mostly close the gap, and it's worth noting that Himiko's non-equipment attacks won't work (being 8-A and all). I suppose she may still retain a slight AP advantage, at least initially (more on that later)

She never fights without her equipment which can easily slash and pierce through characters that fully scale to 10.08 Kilotons and if Shunjinko disarms her then shes gonna be way more likely to activate Twice's blood in order to gain back the upper hand, we saw this exactly when her side started losing and she knew she'd be caught if she didn't use it.

Quick note, Shujinko should be able to do so too, as he can adapt to new fighters very quickly.

Shunjinko is already more skilled than Toga so he'd obviously have less worry in that department.

Shujinko has many abilities Himiko has no resistance to, like Absolute Zero Ice Manipulation from Sub-Zero, Hellfire that erupts from beneath his opponent from Scorpion, Telekinesis from Kenshi and Ermac (Shujinko's superior LS would be enough to hold her in place), blinding Light Manipulation from Hotaru, can summon lighting from the skys onto his enemies from Nightwold, stun-inducing Banshee Scream from Sindel, and Invisibility from his own stealth (I don't remember who taught him that).

Not to mention that Shujinko can easily close the distance and force a hand-to-hand fight with his Teleportation that he learned from, well a lot of people actually.

I see that on the profile but does he actually use those in combat? there are no scans or anything and it could be a situation of "well he has their powers so he SHOULD be able to use it but we've never actually seen it" just like the profile stats as such "Absorbed the fighting power of all the strongest warriors" it seems more like a matter of he could but really would he? just based on the profile he prefers the ice, fire, and thunder and the LS advantage is very tiny and most fighters in MK don't just use it to restrain, its a one and done grapple essentially

even if he COULD quirks like this are so common in MHA that toga will have no problem reacting in time and any of the super scary ones that put her on edge only make it more likely for her to instantly transform and start the sad mans parade plus he lacks a means to actually track Toga once she goes stealth mode, Deku wasn't able to track her perfectly despite being able to accurately predict things on a stormy night from kilometers away, people who can turn intangible and end up behind him, and people faster than him.

Very well, then allow me to present Shujinko's ace in the hole, which is a one-two punch.

First of all, as made obvious, he can duplicate powers he learns, but what is notable is that he consistently learns these abilities within single training sessions with others, which entail sparring and whatnot. Basically, if he sees the technique, his mimicry powers allow him to copy it. Himiko's gonna have to worry about plenty of her own techniques used against her, and keep in mind he can use powers from races he doesn't belong to (like Baraka) or born from circumstances he doesn't have to duplicate (like Scoprion's powers despite not being a spectre).

those are training sessions that he still has to complete for a copy of the power and quirks are far more complicated than that as they are biological in nature with a whole vestige element (tho the only characters who can use that are ones who can manipulate them) and even then he has to fight them first fully in order to copy the style.

Her stealth is her own thing, its not the same as copying a martial art and the only real power he could copy from Toga is "being able to transform into someone with their blood" which doesn't really benefit him in the slightest. now if he could use the Twice power which imo he shouldn't be able to do, it'd likely end up working against him since 1. Twice clones are capable of independent thought and adore Toga so they likely wouldn't harm her and just end up turning against him and 2. using Twice requires sufficient details about the object they want to clone such as height, chest, foot measurement etc something Shunjinko just doesn't have here.

But second of all, he also can gain strength from other warriors and add it to his own, which he used to amp himself to destroy the Kamidogus and defeat Onaga. He doesn't even need to touch them to do this, he just has to choose to do so. Therefore, Toga's less than 1.375 times strength advantage will become Shujinko's more than 1.727 times strength advantage.

toga isn't just gonna sit there and let himself amp up, in the clip it clearly took a good second for him to absorb their power and the moment she realizes "hey this isn't good" shes activating the sad man's parade. and for the further note there is no downtime for this, she drank and was able to immedetly start it

I really see no solid answer to him getting crushed under thousands upon thousands of Twice clones and he lacks a reliable way of actually tracking Toga who can take even the most skilled of fighters by surprise

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Will respond when I get home.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

She never fights without her equipment which can easily slash and pierce through characters that fully scale to 10.08 Kilotons and if Shunjinko disarms her then shes gonna be way more likely to activate Twice's blood in order to gain back the upper hand, we saw this exactly when her side started losing and she knew she'd be caught if she didn't use it.

Fair point.

see that on the profile but does he actually use those in combat?

He used Nightwolf's skills against Shang Tsung and Ermac's skills against Noob, he definitely does.

most fighters in MK don't just use it to restrain

Exhibit A, B, C, D, and E. Keep in mind these moves work against all characters with comparable lifting strength to Shujinko, and therefore higher lifting strength than Togo. They let go of their telekinesis to do either do a follow-up move or finish their opponents, that's just how a fight works.

any of the super scary ones that put her on edge only make it more likely for her to instantly transform and start the sad mans parade

Not if Shujinko's hits land and stun-lock her.

he lacks a means to actually track Toga once she goes stealth mode

Same for Shujinko's invisibility.

those are training sessions that he still has to complete for a copy of the power

This tells us that he can copy powers very easily and very quickly, if he sees one of her abilities, he'll have the chance to copy it.

quirks are far more complicated than that as they are biological in nature with a whole vestige element

Once again, plenty of powers in Mortal Kombat are biological in nature.

(tho the only characters who can use that are ones who can manipulate them)

Shujinko has overcome these limits too, he's not a Tarkatan, yet he can do Baraka's abilities. He's not an undead spectre, yet he can do Scorpion's abilities.

he has to fight them first fully in order to copy the style

Nope! He copies the styles long before the fight is over.

1. Twice clones are capable of independent thought and adore Toga so they likely wouldn't harm her and just end up turning against him and 2. using Twice requires sufficient details about the object they want to clone such as height, chest, foot measurement etc something Shunjinko just doesn't have here.

Is it impossible he could copy whatever causes the clones who adore Toga so they follow him instead? Also, could he still create imperfect copies?

Even ignoring all that, now he has a new reservoir of new strength and abilities to copy.

in the clip it clearly took a good second for him to absorb their power

There's no indication of that happening, he just does it. But even if it did, Shujinko can just stun her via A) Banshee Scream B) ground Hellfire C) Sky Lighting D) Absolute Zero Freezing E) Telekinesis. Again, just because she's familiar with it doesn't automatically mean she can counter it.

him getting crushed under thousands upon thousands of Twice clones

Teleport away, become intangible to avoid damage, use invisibility to keep out of trouble until he tracks down Togo, kill her, there you go.

he lacks a reliable way of actually tracking Toga who can take even the most skilled of fighters by surprise

It might not be too hard to track her down. I'm pretty sure in Mortal Kombat, "ki sensing" refers to whether or not characters have a soul, as Cyrax's lack of a soul is cited as a reason he could pass undetected by Kahn's forces. As long as you're alive (and weren't cyberized by the Lin Kuei unless your name is Smoke), you have a soul.

There's nothing that can stop Shujinko from getting in close, overwhelming Toga with his superior skills and stasis-inducing abilities long enough to land a killing blow. You conceded that he also has more versatile long-range attacks, plenty of which can stun Toga and allow Shujinko to work his main-character magic. So Shujinko has the advantage at close range and long range, and has the means to avoid her trump card to enable his own trump card to work.

 

[Bruhtelho]

He used Nightwolf's skills against Shang Tsung and Ermac's skills against Noob, he definitely does.

so he could use them but it comes to down to if he would, Toga is not above him, she looks like a basic Japanese school girl with a knife, not some insane martial artist that Shunjinko was tasked with fighting still he prolly would tbf to him.

Exhibit A, B, C, D, and E. Keep in mind these moves work against all characters with comparable lifting strength to Shujinko, and therefore higher lifting strength than Togo. They let go of their telekinesis to do either do a follow-up move or finish their opponents, that's just how a fight works.

1st one the opponent was already practically K.O'd so its not smth he does right off the bat, 2nd has the same problem since it was a fatality and not something he does during combat, 3rd is another fatality, 3 and 4 are throws so he isn't fully restraining them. Toga insane pain tolerance is gonna let her push through borderline death, life or death situations in MHA are so common and Toga was no stranger to it, she pushed through literally being bloody, exhausted, and having her insides destroyed so Shunjinko is gonna have one hell of a time putting her down.

Not if Shujinko's hits land and stun-lock her.

pain tolerance, stamina, and willpower mean stun-locking her isn't gonna be the end of the world given Curious was doing the same exact thing to her.

Same for Shujinko's invisibility.

Shunjinko has tons of options, nothing guarantees he'd use that and if Toga literally can't find him, she pops Sad Man's Parade and just runs the entire area down, shes not stupid and won't just gonna stand around waiting for him to appear and 2Fort gives her a lot of good places to hide given its 2 massive buildings with a bunch of rooms that she'll take advantage of.

This tells us that he can copy powers very easily and very quickly, if he sees one of her abilities, he'll have the chance to copy it.

Once again, plenty of powers in Mortal Kombat are biological in nature.

Shujinko has overcome these limits too, he's not a Tarkatan, yet he can do Baraka's abilities. He's not an undead spectre, yet he can do Scorpion's abilities.

her only real supernatural ability is a "I can transform after ingesting blood" not something he can take advantage of since its a 1v1 and he doesn't have access to Twice's blood like Toga does.

Nope! He copies the styles long before the fight is over.

Is it impossible he could copy whatever causes the clones who adore Toga so they follow him instead? Also, could he still create imperfect copies?

Even ignoring all that, now he has a new reservoir of new strength and abilities to copy.

anything that isn't replicated perfectly simply falls apart the moment its created so given he lacks the knowledge needed for the quirk, he wouldn't be able to actually use the quirk.

and another factor is... hes fighting Toga not Twice, when Toga is transformed into Twice its literally just a coat of paint over her that grants their abilities so he probably wouldn't be able to copy Double cause he'd only copy Toga power which is "I can transform after ingesting blood"

There's no indication of that happening, he just does it. But even if it did, Shujinko can just stun her via A) Banshee Scream B) ground Hellfire C) Sky Lighting D) Absolute Zero Freezing E) Telekinesis. Again, just because she's familiar with it doesn't automatically mean she can counter it.

i never said counter, I said react accordingly to it. again if he powers up and Toga realizes this guy is not only more skilled but now stronger than her, shes using the Sad Man's Parade meaning she'd no longer be at a disadvantage and possibly get caught. hes got means to stun her and land some good hits but Toga's insane willpower and stamina have let her pop blood before, she'll have the willpower to transform into twice and pop it just like she did against Curious despite it serving no point at that time. she took an explosion to the face, had her insides destroyed by inner explosions, and was beaten to borderline passing out but still popped the blood.

Teleport away, become intangible to avoid damage, use invisibility to keep out of trouble until he tracks down Togo, kill her, there you go.

his abilities are Ten's of Meters so teleporting caps out there which isn't super helpful when Twice clones can rampage for nearly kilometers and this can happen in a matter of seconds and "tracking" toga down isn't gonna do much when she fights amongst the crowd, so if he tried getting her unspecific, hes getting instantly crushed. as some characters said when it happen "It is almost impossible to stop because if a clone is destroyed, they quickly create a new one to replace itself."

It might not be too hard to track her down. I'm pretty sure in Mortal Kombat, "ki sensing" refers to whether or not characters have a soul, as Cyrax's lack of a soul is cited as a reason he could pass undetected by Kahn's forces. As long as you're alive (and weren't cyberized by the Lin Kuei unless your name is Smoke), you have a soul.

Toga can completely erase her presence and we have no visualization of him "tracking someone" with the ki sensing so I don't think that really covers Toga disappearing from his line of sight instantly and reappearing behind him.

There's nothing that can stop Shujinko from getting in close, overwhelming Toga with his superior skills and stasis-inducing abilities long enough to land a killing blow.

there is still moments between those and Toga can disappear from line of sight and even when surrounded by an entire army of people, "land a killing blow" yah against someone who's stamina is so good she pushed her body past a life or death situation with her insides being destroyed, still trying to attack and escape from her opponent.

You conceded that he also has more versatile long-range attacks, plenty of which can stun Toga and allow Shujinko to work his main-character magic.

he does have the better CQC and overall long range options which is only gonna make her popping the Twice blood 10x more likely, shes gonna realize these things and use it just like she did against Ochako, Tsuyu, etc, stunning Toga isn't really gonna do a lot esp when she can willpower through being beaten to a bloody pulp.

So Shujinko has the advantage at close range and long range, and has the means to avoid her trump card to enable his own trump card to work.

same thing as above, he does have those advantages which is only gonna make Toga way more quick to use hers, and no he doesn't have a solid means to avoid it since 1. lack of range to avoid literal thousands of clones destroying 2Fort and rushing towards him and 2. they could work for a time but he can't spam or use them fast enough to wait out 40 minutes of clone duplication since there is downtime and they don't last forever when used.

Shunjinko is gonna be giving Toga one hell of a run for her money but her stealth, insane stamina and endurance advantage, and far greater trump card in Twice's blood that she'll 100% used once pushed or at her wits end which Shunjinko well definitely push her too due to his extensive list of abilities means she'll take it more times than not imo

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yeaaaaah, I think this solidifies my stance, Sad Man Parade is just too overwhelming, and Toga has the will and endurance to push through Taven's offensive options to pop it.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Wtf, you guys didn't informed me about this tourney smh

 

[Rex_Eckles]

so he could use them but it comes to down to if he would, its not Toga is above him, she looks like a basic Japanese school girl with a knife, not some insane martial artist that Shunjinko was tasked with fighting.

SBA, his goal is to fight, his goal is to win. That doesn't matter.

1st one the opponent was already practically K.O'd so its not smth he does right off the bat, 2nd has the same problem since it was a fatality and not something he does during combat,

Never the argument, it's proof that they have the means and the knowhow to restrain their opponents, something you demanded.

3 and 4 are throws so he isn't fully restraining them

Step 1: restrain enemy, Step 2: throw them to do damage. Kenshi is deciding to do a follow-up attack, that's how fighting works.
Shujinko can just decide to not do step 2 and do something else instead.

pain tolerance, stamina, and willpower mean stun-locking her isn't gonna be the end of the world given Curious was doing the same exact thing to her.

Doesn't matter if she's frozen and can't move, hell, being at Absolute Zero might kill her, the ice also makes opponents brittle. Doesn't matter if she's burning (something she can't resist). Doesn't matter if her ears are ringing from the Banshee Screem (again, no resistance).

nothing guarantees he'd use that

About as much as she's guaranteed to use her stealth: if he needs to.

her only real supernatural ability is a "I can transform after ingesting blood" not something he can take advantage of since its a 1v1 and he doesn't have access to Twice's blood like Toga does.

He doesn't need access to his blood, the same way he didn't need to die to get Hell powers, be descended from cryomancers to get cryomancer powers, or be Tarkatan to get Tarkatan powers.

Twice its literally just a coat of paint over her that grants their abilities so he probably wouldn't be able to copy

This is based on absolutely nothing.

hes got means to stun her and land some good hits but Toga's insane willpower and stamina have let her pop blood before, she'll have the willpower to transform into twice and pop it just like she did against Curious despite it serving no point at that time. she took an explosion to the face, had her insides destroyed by inner explosions, and was beaten to borderline passing out but still popped the blood

If she can't counter while stunned, she can't counter while stunned. Shujinko will realize her endurance and keep doing it.

his abilities are Ten's of Meters so teleporting caps out there which isn't super helpful

That really needs to be fixed because it's blatantly incorrect (Scorpion could teleport off an island as it was exploding, so canonically Shujinko can do that, but it's not on the profile). Regardless, he can still consecutively teleport, see in one of the scans, they aren't on the tops of roofs quite yet, it seems to take time for them to spread.

Toga can completely erase her presence and we have no visualization of him "tracking someone" with the ki sensing so I don't think that really covers Toga disappearing from his line of sight instantly and reappearing behind him.

If she still has a soul, that won't matter. Also, what does Toga have that covers Shujinko literally disappearing (via invisibility or teleportation or intagibility) and reappearing behind her?

he does have the better CQC and overall long range options which is only gonna make her popping the Twice blood 10x more likely, shes gonna realize these things and use it just like she did against Ochako, Tsuyu, etc, stunning Toga isn't really gonna do a lot esp when she can willpower through being beaten to a bloody pulp.

Why would Shujinko let that happen? If we're gonna assume Toga somehow knows that Shujinko causing a light-show means he's getting stronger, why aren't we giving Shujinko the same luxury?

willpower through being beaten to a bloody pulp

No willpower beats this.

he can't spam

Anyone who's played a Mortal Kombat game knows this isn't true.

since there is downtime

Downtime spent doing a follow-up attack while she's stunned/immobilized.

Shujinko has moves that can end the fight quickly: if he freezes her, he can shatter her (or she can shatter he by tipping over), if he catches her in telekinesis, he can dismember her and she won't be able to move (or pop the blood), if he keeps doing a sustained Banshee Scream, she'll get skinned.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Okay, I think I can safely vote for Toga after reading this thread, especially SMP is very bullshit to go through

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Okay, I think I can safely vote for Toga after reading this thread, especially SMP is very bullshit to go through

Even with intangibility?

 

[Naito-desu]

I'll personally vote for Shujinko (not the same as saying he advances) but I think Rex makes a better argument

 

[Bruhtelho]

SBA, his goal is to fight, his goal is to win. That doesn't matter.

fair enough but same applies to Toga.

Never the argument, it's proof that they have the means and the knowhow to restrain their opponents, something you demanded.

its proof but not them restraining their opponent forever.

Step 1: restrain enemy, Step 2: throw them to do damage. Kenshi is deciding to do a follow-up attack, that's how fighting works.
Shujinko can just decide to not do step 2 and do something else instead.

Kenshi doesn't get the follow-up cause he threw Toga away and she's quick on her feet, she'll stealth away since its something she can do when in line of sight of people with similar reaction speed to her, he could but thats not how he uses to move so its ooc to say he would.

Doesn't matter if she's frozen and can't move, hell, being at Absolute Zero might kill her, the ice also makes opponents brittle. Doesn't matter if she's burning (something she can't resist). Doesn't matter if her ears are ringing from the Banshee Screem (again, no resistance).

Ice can be reacted too since its a very simple blast and toga has no problem dodging attacks when literally restrained by her opponent like she did against Aizawa. the Banshee screech is the only thing worth noting but even then her ears could be ringing and she'll still find the willpower to fight or run away using stealth.

About as much as she's guaranteed to use her stealth: if he needs to.

Toga uses Stealth constantly in character and combat, we've got no proof of him doing the same and just based on the profile, its not something he uses for stealth reasons.

If she can't counter while stunned, she can't counter while stunned. Shujinko will realize her endurance and keep doing it.

She can willpower through it, Shunjinko can push her but nothing stops Stealth plus Sad Man's Parade GG and Toga can still react when on the ground exhausted.

He doesn't need access to his blood, the same way he didn't need to die to get Hell powers, be descended from cryomancers to get cryomancer powers, or be Tarkatan to get Tarkatan powers.


This is based on absolutely nothing.

he does since thats how Toga's power works

its based on the fact literally every encounter where he gained new abilities, it was 1v1's against said character, he's fighting Toga and not Twice even when shes transformed, thats still Toga. that still completely ignored the fact that Double requires a shit ton of info about the clone to even function properly which he doesn't have on anything.

If she still has a soul, that won't matter. Also, what does Toga have that covers Shujinko literally disappearing (via invisibility or teleportation or intagibility) and reappearing behind her?

that.... does tho. we have no visualization of them sensing souls or even using it in combat. Togas own stealth, suppressing her presence, and running everything down with Sad Man's Parade.

That really needs to be fixed because it's blatantly incorrect (Scorpion could teleport off an island as it was exploding, so canonically Shujinko can do that, but it's not on the profile). Regardless, he can still consecutively teleport, see in one of the scans, they aren't on the tops of roofs quite yet, it seems to take time for them to spread.

so it longer than the profile stats but that can't be used in this instance and even then hes gonna get worn out eventually. thats not true either for the most part, it takes time to spread out but one moment shes on the island and the next there are literal thousands of them, this happens within a couple seconds since Kurogiri appears and warps her to Gunga Vila, this is because once she starts doubling than those twice start doubling and so on and so fourth.

Why would Shujinko let that happen? If we're gonna assume Toga somehow knows that Shujinko causing a light-show means he's getting stronger, why aren't we giving Shujinko the same luxury?

cause thats how power ups are visualized in MHA esp with something like OFA users (something which most of the world is very apparent of), thee user starts having light on their body esp Deku and Toga has no reason to assume this could be any different and even then one punch is gonna tell her that hes stronger. Shunjinko has no idea Toga has the blood on her in the first place so he can't exactly stop it.

No willpower beats this.

so hes punching in a combo sense, its nice and all but there are moments where Toga could react and yah it could, she had her literal insides blown apart and kept going, being punched isn't gonna slow her down.

Anyone who's played a Mortal Kombat game knows this isn't true.

there are moments between the attacks is what I said.

Downtime spent doing a follow-up attack while she's stunned/immobilized.

this feels very game mechanichy ngl like yah he could probably do that, maybe during one of the actual abilites but with his casual punches ehhhh. Toga could still just steatlh plus Twice blood gg.

Shujinko has moves that can end the fight quickly: if he freezes her, he can shatter her (or she can shatter he by tipping over), if he catches her in telekinesis, he can dismember her and she won't be able to move (or pop the blood), if he keeps doing a sustained Banshee Scream, she'll get skinned.

first thing could happen, second thing they've only ever done after an opponent was down for the count, and same with the third thing.

Toga wincon of just stealth plus twice blood is far simpler than Shunjinko esp given she'll realize how skilled he is and how much of a disadvantage it puts her out or his extensive arsenal. another thing I forgot to acknowledge was this

Sad Man's Parade GG. That ability is just absurdly busted and unlike in Canon, it will be even more of a problem since Twice's Quirk won't be all ****** up due to her emotions getting the better of her since she's not fighting a Pro-Hero who she has a major grudge against meaning she can make copies of other people that still have their powers.

Toga's heart isn't filled with bloodlust here nor are her emotions all ****** up cause of a specific hero, so its completely possible for her to summon her other allies just like she did during the sad man's parade those would include Tomura Shigaraki, Dabi, more Himiko Toga, more Twice, Mr. Compress, and we even see weakened All For One, meaning he not only has to worry about Twice but also those characters amongst it.

 

[koopa3144]

I'ma vote Toga FRA cause her wincons are stronger here.

 

[Keeweed]

SBA has the opponents start staring at each other knowing exactly where each other is. I have no reason to assume toga would run away and hide rather than assuming she’s been caught with her pants down and need to fight. In which case she gets telekinetically grabbed and folded like a pretzel; or instantly incinerated by fire that spawns on her feet.

 

[koopa3144]

SBA has the opponents start staring at each other knowing exactly where each other is. I have no reason to assume toga would run away and hide rather than assuming she’s been caught with her pants down and need to fight. In which case she gets telekinetically grabbed and folded like a pretzel; or instantly incinerated by fire that spawns on her feet.

Toga heavily relies on her stealth and always uses it in combat iirc. If she had no where to go, I could see her just going for the direct fight. But considering she can vanish while in the direct sight of peeps who are equal in speed to her, and the multitude of hiding spots 2Fort offers her, it shouldn’t be to hard for her use her normal stealth tactics here.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Will respond later.

 

[Nonynho]

Thank goodness
I can (and am right now) cast(ing) my vote at Shujinko :>

 

[Bruhtelho]

SBA has the opponents start staring at each other knowing exactly where each other is. I have no reason to assume toga would run away and hide rather than assuming she’s been caught with her pants down and need to fight. In which case she gets telekinetically grabbed and folded like a pretzel; or instantly incinerated by fire that spawns on her feet.

as Koopa said, she can completely disappear when people are right in front of her with similar reaction speeds, can completely disappear when surrounded by a whole group of people trying to kill her and nearly taking Curious by surprise despite being her surrounded, and did so against Deku on numerous occasions despite him being able to predict his opponents next move all well halting her breathing and her thoughts basically blending into her surroundings and erasing her presence something. and if she feels as if shes been caught or is close to losing then she'll instinctively try to transform into whatever blood shes got so "caught with her pants down" is only more likely to cause her to react with Sad Man's Parade and i'm not seeing a truly solid answer to getting ran down by thousands of clones all of which come packed with different levels of strength and unique abilities

so them starting in front of each other doesn't really matter for her stealth esp on a map like 2Fort and at worse can cause her to react with Double spam.

 

[Bruhtelho]

I believe the vote count right now is 3 (shunjinko) to 4 (Toga) btw

 

[Kingofwolves999]

How does this guys power absorption work? Because Toga’s ability is shapeshifting, so he would copy that, not the Double ability that she gets by transforming into Twice. And he can’t power absorb from the clones themselves because they are empty shells, like how AFO can’t take a quirk from them.

Her stealth is cooking this guy considering the layout of the battlefield and that his enhanced senses are only fighting while blind. She can very easily endure his attacks or utilize her rocket propelled needles to make an opening to disappear completely, and then it’s a simple matter of sending Twice clones of herself to stab him to death.

Also, since she isn’t emotionally conflicted here, her clones can use other people’s quirks, so this is getting even worse.

 

[Bruhtelho]

How does this guys power absorption work? Because Toga’s ability is shapeshifting, so he would copy that, not the Double ability that she gets by transforming into Twice. And he can’t power absorb from the clones themselves because they are empty shells, like how AFO can’t take a quirk from them.

based on what Rex said its "This tells us that he can copy powers very easily and very quickly, if he sees one of her abilities, he'll have the chance to copy it."

and "First of all, as made obvious, he can duplicate powers he learns, but what is notable is that he consistently learns these abilities within single training sessions with others, which entail sparring and whatnot. Basically, if he sees the technique, his mimicry powers allow him to copy it."

 

[MochOath]

why is Toga even in this tournament
who is taking out a massive army of people, each of whom is a capable fighter on their own?

 

[Sooshirohl]

why is Toga even in this tournament
who is taking out a massive army of people, each of whom is a capable fighter on their own?

at a glance, shunguang might be able to handle the parade assuming she makes it far enough in the tournament to get matched up with toga. insane danmaku + flight should be able to deal with the massive swarm + giant AOE spatial attacks that could one shot massive chunks of the parade in one go, though that's kind of thinking far into the future and she's gotta worry about getting past her current opponent first lol

anyways i'll read through the args for both sides in a bit and cast a vote later

 

[AnAverageUsername]

why is Toga even in this tournament
who is taking out a massive army of people, each of whom is a capable fighter on their own?

Him

 

[MochOath]

Him

yeah cause he shouldn't be here either
outdated page + he probably no sells his value

 

[AnAverageUsername]

yeah cause he shouldn't be here either
outdated page

His 7-C stuff is up to date, only the 6-B to High 6-A stuff is outdated for his current profile. Eclipse arc stuff should honestly be its own profile, so nothing to worry about involving that.

+ he probably no sells his value

More like it was performed with a casual backhand, some others in this tourney are still more powerful as well.

 

[Nonynho]

why is Toga even in this tournament
who is taking out a massive army of people, each of whom is a capable fighter on their own?

I firmly believe that if Rae's able to get past anti-magic mercenaries, she'll get this W too

 

[Rex_Eckles]

its proof but not them restraining their opponent forever.

Because they decided to stop doing it, when they perform the fatalities, they use their telekinesis to restrain their opponents for longer. The argument it's that he'll hold her down forever, the argument is that he'll hold her down so he can damage her without worry of retaliation.

literally restrained by her opponent like she did against Aizawa

If she can't move, I'm not sure how she'd do that

even then her ears could be ringing and she'll still find the willpower to fight or run away using stealth.

Doubt.

Also, good luck dodging fire erupting from beneath you're feet.

Toga can still react when on the ground exhausted

But not while frozen on the ground, or in tiny ice-bits after falling over.

Togas own stealth, suppressing her presence

She's still alive, she's not a Lin Kuei Cyborg, he'll sense her.

this happens within a couple seconds since Kurogiri appears and warps her to Gunga Vila, this is because once she starts doubling than those twice start doubling and so on and so fourth

Still time for Shujinko to become intangible or gain distance via multiple teleports.

Also, we can't forget that Shujinko can take the clones' strength and add it to his own, at that point the strength gap widens even more. Not sure if it becomes a oneshot, but it'll get pretty massive.

thee user starts having light on their body esp Deku and Toga has no reason to assume this could be any different

If she was initially somewhat stronger, how is she supposed to know how dangerous it'll be (especially since she won't be any weaker than before, so she couldn't assume it's a power-steal)?

so hes punching in a combo sense

That's not the clip, it's freezing solid, allowing him to just stroll on over and rip the opponent's head off. There is no counter for that. Do we know if she can even survive being frozen to Absolute Zero?

there are moments between the attacks is what I said.

That's every fight ever, the moments between firing attacks are spent by Toga being hit by the attacks.

maybe during one of the actual abilites but with his casual punches ehhhh

Why would Shujinko be fighting with casual punches? The point is that if he can land a good hit, he can keep juggling her with abilities and even the fabled "casual punches".

Toga could still just steatlh plus Twice blood gg.

And Shujinko can teleport to her and unleash a relentless assault before she could do that, GG.

second thing they've only ever done after an opponent was down for the count, and same with the third thing

You mean after they're stunned from a relentless assault? There's no reason to assume Shujinko will only do that after Toga is defeated, the whole point of having fatalities is to show how deadly the character's weapons and abilities are when not bound by gameplay limitations. Are we now gonna say that Shujinko wouldn't decapitate an opponent while fighting them because, in-game, he only decapitates opponents in fatalities and not mid-match?

Toga wincon of just stealth plus twice blood is far simpler

That sounds a lot more complicated than Shujinko beating her to death or freezing/burning/otherwise-stunning her and then beating her to death.

Even without Shujinko's power-mimicry trump card, he has the abilities to counter Toga's trump card. The same can't be said otherwise.

 

[Bruhtelho]

Because they decided to stop doing it, when they perform the fatalities, they use their telekinesis to restrain their opponents for longer. The argument it's that he'll hold her down forever, the argument is that he'll hold her down so he can damage her without worry of retaliation.

I never said he wouldn't be able to dmg her just that him throwing her away as shown in how they use it, isn't really gonna do a lot in the long run and again fatalities are when the opponent is already K.O'd so its unlikely to happen as is.

If she can't move, I'm not sure how she'd do that

its different circumstances but again were hyping up TK that we've only ever seen used for pushing or throwing them to the ground, both of which aren't much.

Doubt.

Also, good luck dodging fire erupting from beneath you're feet.

another fatality which isn't how they use it usually. the fire could be bad news but she should be able to willpower and run away after the first time, she had no problem tanking Curious explosion to the face, same thing applies here.

But not while frozen on the ground, or in tiny ice-bits after falling over.

freezing her isn't consistent since its a completely reacted thing she can avoid happening.

She's still alive, she's not a Lin Kuei Cyborg, he'll sense her.

show me them using it as such then. cause all i'm seeing it flowery language with a one off statment. even then, if she realizes stealth isn't working then its Sad Man's Parade time with clones of all her comrades

Still time for Shujinko to become intangible or gain distance via multiple teleports.

Also, we can't forget that Shujinko can take the clones' strength and add it to his own, at that point the strength gap widens even more. Not sure if it becomes a oneshot, but it'll get pretty massive.

Toga creates a Shiggy clone and he gets hit with passive fear and illusion inducement once the clones start happening completely paralyzing him then what?.

If she was initially somewhat stronger, how is she supposed to know how dangerous it'll be (especially since she won't be any weaker than before, so she couldn't assume it's a power-steal)?

he's already more skilled with a massive versatility advantage, she'll realize this and how she needs that advantage, in comes twice blood giving her back the versatility and numbers.

That's not the clip, it's freezing solid, allowing him to just stroll on over and rip the opponent's head off. There is no counter for that. Do we know if she can even survive being frozen to Absolute Zero?

i never said she could survive it, she can react to the ice and Toga isn't stupid. Ice in mha can completely freeze people and cause them to shatter, she isn't gonna let something like that just slide or happen.

That's every fight ever, the moments between firing attacks are spent by Toga being hit by the attacks.

Toga is used to being in the air mid-combat, she can launch out her blood sucking machines at him to counter being launched up. her whole fight with Ochako practically took place in the air cause of her quirk. and she was still able to counter attack.

And Shujinko can teleport to her and unleash a relentless assault before she could do that, GG.

she sees him Teleport, goes stealth mode, and drinks the twice blood. shes not gonna play around against someone more skilled than her who can literally teleport nor is she gonna stand there like an idiot waiting for him to reappear. and even then she carries decoy blood on her, I addressed this in the beginning "fake out Blood on her just in case Shunjinko tried to rush her down" just like with what Froppy did when she tried going after her.

You mean after they're stunned from a relentless assault? There's no reason to assume Shujinko will only do that after Toga is defeated, the whole point of having fatalities is to show how deadly the character's weapons and abilities are when not bound by gameplay limitations. Are we now gonna say that Shujinko wouldn't decapitate an opponent while fighting them because, in-game, he only decapitates opponents in fatalities and not mid-match?

from what we see yes, we have no reason to just assume they do it any other time and even then. if fatalities could happen mid combat then whats the point in the actual fight? its pointless to say he'd do that when were never shown it happening as such.

its like me saying Toga could drink the twice blood right off the gate if she truly feels like it but she never does that. she waits till its worth using.

That sounds a lot more complicated than Shujinko beating her to death or freezing/burning/otherwise-stunning her and then beating her to death.

Even without Shujinko's power-mimicry trump card, he has the abilities to counter Toga's trump card. The same can't be said otherwise.

he just doesn't. Toga's trump card includes bunch of hax he has no real answer too because she can create clones of her comrades so not only does he have to worry about thousands of Twice Clones but also the following

Tomura Shigaraki (Post-Surgery): once hes out its GG cause of passive fear and illusion hax caused by his mere presence which means the twice get free pickings on stabbing him or Shiggy just straight up sends either 1. a decay wave at him or 2. Air Cannon blast him which has massive AOE to it

Dabi: whole AOE flames that ignore conventional durability due to how hot they are.

All For One: same thing as Shiggy minus the decay wave but he could just ignore conventional durability with Spatial Manipulation and be done with it.

Mr. Compress: can seal Shunjinko into a marble via Compress

She should more than be capable of doing this for the reasons above "Toga's heart isn't filled with bloodlust here nor are her emotions all ****** up cause of a specific hero (Hawks)."

and as Therewolf and I have said "Because Toga’s ability is shapeshifting, so he would copy that, not the Double ability that she gets by transforming into Twice. And he can’t power absorb from the clones themselves because they are empty shells, like how AFO can’t take a quirk from them." and the following ""She can very easily endure his attacks or utilize her rocket propelled needles to make an opening to disappear completely, and then it’s a simple matter of sending Twice clones of herself to stab him to death." on top of everything else now

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Will respond in 27 years and 3 months.