Shibai Otsutsuki Universal+ Removel

[ichimojii]

Shibai got universal+ off these statements one from momoshiki and one from the Boruto data base. These are not definitive statements at all this just lore or rumors based on the fact they used the word said. Which is a word used to avoid committing to a truth asserted by the speaker

"be asserted or reported (often used to avoid committing the speaker or writer to the truth of the assertion)."

Omnipotence can't do anything and everything this is a classic hyperbolic statement used for reality warping powers typically these powers always have limitations. This has happened before with Creation of all things and the 10 tails being stated to create everything. How they have created everything if Omnipotence made everything? These are clearly hyperbolic statements here the 10 tails is stated to be a parasite and Creation of all things has limitations



Momoshiki even says Omnipotence doesn't work on the user or the caster which completely debunks what he just said. Furthermore the otsutsuki clan is only 1000s of years old according to isshiki so theirs no way they could have made the universe which is more then millions of years old at least

So I'm suggesting the complete removal of universal+ with Omnipotence.

Edit: KingTempest's Point (Hi it's me)

Spoiler

Sorry king, but you’ll actually have to give a reason or specify exactly what you’re agreeing with. Most issues brought up in this thread were already raised and answered in the old one, and then once again dismantled here. Agreeing to a null premise won’t put you in a good light.

Heard that though.

First of all I'm pretty sure with a verse as big as Naruto/Boruto you need 3 staff agreeals for it but since it went through I don't really care too much.

Regarding the OP​

The Otsutsuki do come from a different planet. They aren't predatehistoryesque individuals, they come from another planet, meaning that if that planet predated them, the universe predated them.

The lore of the Otsutsuki is not that they just had ancient gods who created the universe and everything in it. Momoshiki's statement was not referring to any transcendent individuals who existed prior to the birth of the universe. It was referring to those who were TURNED into gods (notice how he blatantly said BECAME). And as we know, the only way you turn into an otsutsuki god is if you eat the fruit of divine trees, said fruit that is rooted from the chakra of planets, said planets (which have to be a diabolical crap ton) which come from the already existing universe.

The entire point of the Otsutsuki will is that they are a race of mortal aliens meant to endlessly evolve until they reach godhood, which contradicts the belief that there were previously existing deities that just created the world. And that could be deduced I guess, but to deduce that from the statements of Momoshiki who is blatantly speaking about those who already exist, that just shows that this is wrong.

The previous OP can't use statements of "people evolved through these existing planets to create these pre-existing planets that predate them", that's just wrong.

I noted that I agree with the OP because the OP made a point. It was horribly written but it was a point.

Even in the previous OP, they blatantly say this

In the Road of Boruto guidebook, it’s stated that “an Ōtsutsuki became a god,” referring to Eida’s Omnipotence who comes from shibai. This could indeed imply Shibai, but we don’t need to go that far for our reasoning. What matters is that this act was performed by a god of the same power and nature as Shibai.

The nature of Shibai is that he was a mortal who became an immortal through the usage of frequent god trees. If he's of the same nature, and it's blatantly said that an otsutsuki became a god, then we can deduce that the same nature being spoken of is the divine nature that was given based on constant evolution based on the pre-existent planets.

TLDR

Otsutsuki gods only exist when Otsutsuki evolve -> Otsutsuki evolve when they eat chakra fruits -> chakra fruits come from planets -> you can't have an otsutsuki god without planets -> an otsutsuki god couldn't have created everything in existence if he needed that existence to become a god -> an otsutsuki god didn't create everything in existence

My personal reasons​

I find the argument of the "Genesis" being one of the weakest tier 2 arguments on the site. And not to diss the previous OP but moreso the line of logic that made it through.

The abuse of the phrase "genesis" and "world" to directly mean that it formed universe seems like a big leap in logic. Like said, it's very akin to when Naruto said the sage created everything but then we saw he was born on earth. It's the same leap of logic

Genesis refers to the origin of something. It's not specifically meant for the birth of the universe no it's meant for the origin of something. Ex Nihilo gets the point out more but even that doesn't work. With that being said, Naruto as a series, and I guess Kishimoto and Ikemoto, are not so vague as to try to say "the world" and mean the further unexplored cosmos. Whenever they feel like it they will emphasize larger bodies, which is why occasionally they use universe and space-time and such.

The databook post talking about their goals and purpose is that they evolve through the need of other planets.

The OP used a needless jump in logic to say "worlds is wrong, it means universe" without a speck of japanese dissection (and the only japanese translations he did use said world), and he tried to use the biblical genesis example of genesis, and to note that there's gods who did a genesis, as a way of saying "Boruto gods pulled a biblical God and made the universe". It's a very flimsy jjk buddhist real world connection point esque argument.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree.

 

[AKUTO123]

Agree for now but waiting counter argumants

 

[KingTempest]

well shit

u do need more scans but i know em by heart so i can agree

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

well shit

u do need more scans but i know em by heart so i can agree

I don’t think agreeing based on personal memory is appropriate here.

Even if you’re familiar with the scans, claims still need to be supported in-thread so other users and moderators can verify them. CRTs are evidence-based, and agreement without scans makes the conclusion non-reviewable and non-transparent, especially for Tier 2 stuff.

You yourself said that OP lacks scans so, the best course should be to wait until they’re provided, not to accept the claim anyway. Otherwise the burden of proof is effectively bypassed, which sets a bad precedent.

 

[Shadow7001]

I do wanna raise a question here that I don't see OP asking but which I think is important; we're saying that Shibai use Omnipotence to essentially create the universe. My issue here is that, the universe clearly existed before Shibai did (pre-ascension/post-ascension). The clan itself is younger than the universe, as is Shibai as far as the scans I've seen and the lore I've read goes. So, how does one come to the conclusion that Shibai was the progenitor of the universe? Or is this another, higher God that we're talking about and not Shibai?

 

[Shadow7001]

Okay I think the argument is that Omnipotence = Low 2-C (since it's stated to have created the universe I believe?) and because Shibai possesses it (and probably mastered it but idk if that was ever stated), then Shibai with Omnipotence = Low 2-C. I kinda get the logic, but I just don't think it's safe to just give him that unless there's evidence or statements of him being able to do that with Omnipotence too. It'd be like giving any character with even a bit of that power Low 2-C (because even a fraction of Low 2-C is still Low 2-C). So yeah, if that's the argument then I think it should be removed unless the supporters have some scans that state or prove Shibai can actually do this with Omnipotence.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Shibai got universal+ off these statements one from momoshiki and one from the Boruto data base. These are not definitive statements at all this just lore or rumors based on the fact they used the word said. Which is a word used to avoid committing to a truth asserted by the speaker

"be asserted or reported (often used to avoid committing the speaker or writer to the truth of the assertion)."

Omnipotence can't do anything and everything this is a classic hyperbolic statement used for reality warping powers typically these powers always have limitations. This has happened before with Creation of all things and the 10 tails being stated to create everything. How they have created everything if Omnipotence made everything? These are clearly hyperbolic statements here the 10 tails is stated to be a parasite and Creation of all things has limitations

Omnipotence.

Old Tier up to Universe level+ with Omnipotence (Shibai&OHTSUTSUKI GODS)

The first thing I wanted to point out is that the VSBW’s interpretation of “the creation of the world,” or rather “the worlds,” is actually a mistranslation. It’s an unreliable rendering that doesn’t align at all with the original Japanese text, which conveys a completely different meaning. I...

vsbattles.com

Read the upgrade thread. I actually find it insulting to reduce what the OP painstakingly put together to make the thread into "said".

Momoshiki even says Omnipotence doesn't work on the user or the caster which completely debunks what he just said. Furthermore the otsutsuki clan is only 1000s of years old according to isshiki so theirs no way they could have made the universe which is more then millions of years old at least

So I'm suggesting the complete removal of universal+ with

This is just straight up a lie? Ishikki never made such statement and no one ever claimed thousands of years old otsusuki created the universe.
The claim isn't shibai created everything.

The claim is according to the database the first otsusuki god created the universe and everything with omnipotence.
The otsusuki race and their existence is basically just trying their best to reach an existence similar to that otsusuki.
We now got information of one that succeeded aka shibai.

Shibai is rated low 2c with omnipotence simply because the only way to bring out the full power of omnipotence is to become an otsusuki god. If you're not an otsusuki God then you can't bring out it's full power.

So if creating the world is something omnipotence can do and the full power of omnipotence can be brought about only by an otsusuki god then logically any otsusuki God will be low2c with omnipotence in their hand.

In fact it's not ridiculous to say they themselves should be rated such since it's their existence that makes the ability reach such level.

 

[ichimojii]

well shit

u do need more scans but i know em by heart so i can agree

Scans for which arguments

 

[Shadow7001]

Omnipotence.

Old Tier up to Universe level+ with Omnipotence (Shibai&OHTSUTSUKI GODS)

The first thing I wanted to point out is that the VSBW’s interpretation of “the creation of the world,” or rather “the worlds,” is actually a mistranslation. It’s an unreliable rendering that doesn’t align at all with the original Japanese text, which conveys a completely different meaning. I...

vsbattles.com

Read the upgrade thread. I actually find it insulting to reduce what the OP painstakingly put together to make the thread into "said".


This is just straight up a lie? Ishikki never made such statement and no one ever claimed thousands of years old otsusuki created the universe.
The claim isn't shibai created everything.

The claim is according to the database the first otsusuki god created the universe and everything with omnipotence.
The otsusuki race and their existence is basically just trying their best to reach an existence similar to that otsusuki.
We now got information of one that succeeded aka shibai.

Shibai is rated low 2c with omnipotence simply because the only way to bring out the full power of omnipotence is to become an otsusuki god. If you're not an otsusuki God then you can't bring out it's full power.

So if creating the world is something omnipotence can do and the full power of omnipotence can be brought about only by an otsusuki god then logically any otsusuki God will be low2c with omnipotence in their hand.

In fact it's not ridiculous to say they themselves should be rated such since it's their existence that makes the ability reach such level.

There's an issue with this argument. Why do we assume 'relativity' between all would-be Otsutsuki Gods? Also, we know that Shibai didn't exist before the universe (I mean, he couldn't have, he hadn't even ascended at one point) so he couldn't have created the universe, meaning that there IS some other God who did this if this is to be believed which means that Isshiki might(?) be wrong about there just being one such God.

However, even ignoring that, the idea of 'relativity' alone is pretty weird and honestly not even supported in the material itself. Isshiki calls the Otsutsuki God a 'peerless' existence so that alone puts a dent into the whole 'relativity' concept. Furthermore, even if we assumed they were all relative for some reason that still doesn't really mean we'd give them all the same exact abilities based off of almost nothing IMO. That's really not how we scale characters, especially in the absence of explicit evidence both about this relativity and even what it entails even if we grant that it's a thing. So yeah, I do agree with removal for now unless the supporters have stronger arguments

 

[DavidTPPM]

This is just objectively wrong. At worst this would change the rating to "likely Universe+ level" not remove it completely.

Shibai got universal+ off these statements one from momoshiki and one from the Boruto data base. These are not definitive statements at all this just lore or rumors based on the fact they used the word said. Which is a word used to avoid committing to a truth asserted by the speaker

"be asserted or reported (often used to avoid committing the speaker or writer to the truth of the assertion)."

The database doesn't just say him creating the world was "said to have happened" but Shibai even possessing omnipotence was "said" to be true.

However we KNOW that this is true. Both from Momoshikis confirmation and the fact Ada gained it from Shibai.

The term "said to have" is likely just used to create a mysterious aura around the Otsutsuki God not to actually doubt what Omnipotence can do. Otherwise the database would be doubting if Shibai even had it despite that being confirmed.

Omnipotence can't do anything and everything this is a classic hyperbolic statement used for reality warping powers typically these powers always have limitations.

We're not assuming it can do LITERALLY everything, that'd be tier 0 not low 2-C.
We're very much working within the limitations of what it was said to have achieved.

This has happened before with Creation of all things and the 10 tails being stated to create everything. How they have created everything if Omnipotence made everything? These are clearly hyperbolic statements here the 10 tails is stated to be a parasite and Creation of all things has limitations

What's the argument here exactly?
That "hyperboles exist so I can call any statement I want a hyperbole"?

Because this is just a huge false equivalence. The bolded parts above the actual explanations in the Naruto databooks are famously known for being for hype so you read the actual explanation. However Momoshikis statement is an in-universe description of an ability that aims to tell us how this ability that completely changed the entire course of the story works, not to hype us up for anything.

Momoshiki even says Omnipotence doesn't work on the user or the caster which completely debunks what he just said.

It doesn't…? How does not manipulating the Otsutsukis debunk creating a universe?

Furthermore the otsutsuki clan is only 1000s of years old according to isshiki so theirs no way they could have made the universe which is more then millions of years old at least

According to Code even individual Otsutsukis are 1000s of years old so this is likely only referring to the currently alive Otsutsukis who have not yet ascended.
Since Otsutsuki don't only evolve as a race but as individuals with each fruit.

Also don't you think Momoshiki would know this if he's been alive for majority of the clans existence?

So I'm suggesting the complete removal of universal+ with Omnipotence.

So the problem is that none of the arguments here come even close to actually debunking the rating.
Even if I were to take everything you said at face value it wouldn't debunk anything, yk why?

Because even the sheer fact Momoshiki, our most reliable source on shinjutsu, believes is plausible enough to have happened proves that Otsutsuki Gods CAN do it regardless of whether they actually did it. The only thing you'd change is make it go from

"an Otsutsuki God has created a universe"
To
"an Otsutsuki God can create a universe and was said to have done so in the past"

 

[karo_senpaii]

There's an issue with this argument. Why do we assume 'relativity' between all would-be Otsutsuki Gods? Also, we know that Shibai didn't exist before the universe (I mean, he couldn't have, he hadn't even ascended at one point) so he couldn't have created the universe, meaning that there IS some other God who did this if this is to be believed which means that Isshiki might(?) be wrong about there just being one such God.

It's not relativity. Let me give you an example, look at this statement.
"To be qualified for the 100m Olympics you need to run it at least below 11 secs"

Does this mean all the people that qualified are equal? No , there are some who could even go under 9secs, it just means the minimum requirement to qualify is 11 secs.

Same way the minimum requirement to qualify for bringing out omnipotence full power (at least low2c) is to be an otsusuki God.


So uhm yeah he could be the weakest of the bunch and still qualify.

Also I started my statement with saying "shibai didn't create everything", an unknown ancient otsusuki god (likely the first) did and everyone is trying to be like him so idk why you're telling me shibai didn't create the universe.

However, even ignoring that, the idea of 'relativity' alone is pretty weird and honestly not even supported in the material itself. Isshiki calls the Otsutsuki God a 'peerless' existence so that alone puts a dent into the whole 'relativity' concept. Furthermore, even if we assumed they were all relative for some reason that still doesn't really mean we'd give them all the same exact abilities based off of almost nothing IMO. That's really not how we scale characters, especially in the absence of explicit evidence both about this relativity and even what it entails even if we grant that it's a thing. So yeah, I do agree with removal for now unless the supporters have stronger arguments

There is no relativity argument here. You're just misinterpreting. It's an argument of "otsusuki God" being what triggers the full power of omnipotence, doesn't matter if you're the strongest god or the weakest.

 

[ichimojii]

Omnipotence.

Old Tier up to Universe level+ with Omnipotence (Shibai&OHTSUTSUKI GODS)

The first thing I wanted to point out is that the VSBW’s interpretation of “the creation of the world,” or rather “the worlds,” is actually a mistranslation. It’s an unreliable rendering that doesn’t align at all with the original Japanese text, which conveys a completely different meaning. I...

vsbattles.com

Read the upgrade thread. I actually find it insulting to reduce what the OP painstakingly put together to make the thread into "said".

I mean that's important because the word said is used means the statements aren't definitive. You need more definite statements if you are arguing for universal+

This is just straight up a lie? Ishikki never made such statement and no one ever claimed thousands of years old otsusuki created the universe.
The claim isn't shibai created everything.

He says the clan has eaten planets for 1000s of years. That means the clan is 1000s of years old. The otsutsuki in general are stated to be parasites who eat planets.

The claim is according to the database the first otsusuki god created the universe and everything with omnipotence.
The otsusuki race and their existence is basically just trying their best to reach an existence similar to that otsusuki.
We now got information of one that succeeded aka shibai.

I mean that's just speculation it doesn't tell us which otsusuki god.

Shibai is rated low 2c with omnipotence simply because the only way to bring out the full power of omnipotence is to become an otsusuki god. If you're not an otsusuki God then you can't bring out it's full power.

So if creating the world is something omnipotence can do and the full power of omnipotence can be brought about only by an otsusuki god then logically any otsusuki God will be low2c with omnipotence in their hand.

It's still a rumor or speculation. In Naruto the 10 tails is stated to have created the universe like two times. Yin and yang is also stated to have created the universe. Hagoromo is stated to have created the world.What makes the omnipotence statement any different?

In fact it's not ridiculous to say they themselves should be rated such since it's their existence that makes the ability reach such level.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Shibai got universal+ off these statements one from momoshiki and one from the Boruto data base. These are not definitive statements at all this just lore or rumors based on the fact they used the word said. Which is a word used to avoid committing to a truth asserted by the speaker

"be asserted or reported (often used to avoid committing the speaker or writer to the truth of the assertion)."

Here’s what the scan says

"It is said that 'God' used it in the process of creating the world. In other words, it is a programming language for 'Genesis! An absolute will that materializes anything and everything. That is 'Omnipotence."

This is as literal as it gets, not only that but the very definition of “said” that OP linked also can uses as

1. utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction.

Momoshiki in this chapter was explaining I.e conveying information about the true nature of Eida’s ability which is Omnipotence and its role as a tool used for creation by God and this was stated multiple times by many mediums

Omnipotence can't do anything and everything this is a classic hyperbolic statement used for reality warping powers typically these powers always have limitations. This has happened before with Creation of all things and the 10 tails being stated to create everything. How they have created everything if Omnipotence made everything? These are clearly hyperbolic statements here the 10 tails is stated to be a parasite and Creation of all things has limitations

I don’t understand, are you saying that since these jutsu are hyperboles (which they are not) that Omnipotence must be one as well.

This is just false equivalence and has nothing to do with one another. You have to proof that omnipotence as a standalone ability is hyperbolic. Furthermore even comparing omnipotence to the level of CoAT is such a disingenuous argument cuz Omnipotence is a shinjutsu of shinjutsu, this is important cuz ninjutsu (which is what CoAT is) is a mere imitation of shinjutsu and pales in comparison to it. While Omnipotence is hailed a shinjutsu of shinjutsu.

Momoshiki even says Omnipotence doesn't work on the user or the caster which completely debunks what he just said.

Irrelevant, how does this debunk L2C omnipotence

Furthermore the otsutsuki clan is only 1000s of years old according to isshiki so theirs no way they could have made the universe which is more then millions of years old at least

We never claimed that Shibai made the universe but rather an older ancient oats god did so with the use of omnipotence.

Also the oats devour planets across the entire universe for thousands of years not that clan is that old.

So I'm suggesting the complete removal of universal+ with Omnipotence.

Disagree

 

[ichimojii]

There's an issue with this argument. Why do we assume 'relativity' between all would-be Otsutsuki Gods? Also, we know that Shibai didn't exist before the universe (I mean, he couldn't have, he hadn't even ascended at one point) so he couldn't have created the universe, meaning that there IS some other God who did this if this is to be believed which means that Isshiki might(?) be wrong about there just being one such God.

However, even ignoring that, the idea of 'relativity' alone is pretty weird and honestly not even supported in the material itself. Isshiki calls the Otsutsuki God a 'peerless' existence so that alone puts a dent into the whole 'relativity' concept. Furthermore, even if we assumed they were all relative for some reason that still doesn't really mean we'd give them all the same exact abilities based off of almost nothing IMO. That's really not how we scale characters, especially in the absence of explicit evidence both about this relativity and even what it entails even if we grant that it's a thing. So yeah, I do agree with removal for now unless the supporters have stronger arguments

A peerless existence wouldn't be bound any dimension or concept. You are basically arguing they are boundless which I'm sure no one here agrees with

 

[HelloThere1089]

Peerless doesn't mean boundless. Fym???

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

It's still a rumor or speculation. In Naruto the 10 tails is stated to have created the universe like two times.

Scan, I know of one statement and that say heaven and earth and is quite literally in the bolded section

Yin and yang is also stated to have created the universe. Hagoromo is stated to have created the world.What makes the omnipotence statement any different?

It’s has not been stated, it says “gives rise to all things in creation” which it can. Furthermore the hagoromo statement can be referring to society/civilization not the entire universe as the word world has multiple meaning not just “universe”. This is a much more sound interpretation cuz after the battle with the tentails and kaguya the lands were destroyed and there was a big moon sized hole in the earth which hags and his brother probly fixed cuz there is no visual representation of that battle and hole anywhere. Moreover hags established a governance over the lands and began teaching ninshu which sounds like to me that he created a society hence the word world being used, even hamura made a civilization on the moon.

 

[Shadow7001]

It's not relativity. Let me give you an example, look at this statement.
"To be qualified for the 100m Olympics you need to run it at least below 11 secs"

Does this mean all the people that qualified are equal? No , there are some who could even go under 9secs, it just means the minimum requirement to qualify is 11 secs.

Same way the minimum requirement to qualify for bringing out omnipotence full power (at least low2c) is to be an otsusuki God.

There's a weird claim here. Where was it stated that every Otsutsuki God here would have access to the full power of Omnipotence? Also, in your Olympics analogy, wouldn't the 11 secs range be being Low 2-C here? Since we're assuming that all Olympics 100m runners (aka all Otsutsuki Gods, which is the correct analogue here, not them being the 'minimum requirement') can run in 11 secs at least (being capable wielding Low 2-C power via Omnipotence)? I feel like this is putting the cart before the horse here. Why would they all be Low 2-C with Omnipotence just because they have some mastery over it? I believe our standards are quite a bit stricter for this sort of thing. My issue here is that having mastery over Omnipotence is being treated as being Low 2-C here when I see nothing in the source material (unless you can provide something) proving that.

So uhm yeah he could be the weakest of the bunch and still qualify.

Only if you prove that having mastery over Omnipotence = automatically Low 2-C. But this is also a weird thing on its own tbh, what does it mean to be "weaker" here in this case if all Otsutsuki Gods have a mastery over Omnipotence here? Not relevant to the removal itself but this seems like a weird claim, given what was said about 'relativity' in the earlier thread

Also I started my statement with saying "shibai didn't create everything", an unknown ancient otsusuki god (likely the first) did and everyone is trying to be like him so idk why you're telling me shibai didn't create the universe.

My bad, I glossed over that part.

There is no relativity argument here. You're just misinterpreting. It's an argument of "otsusuki God" being what triggers the full power of omnipotence, doesn't matter if you're the strongest god or the weakest.

I'm not. That's literally what the entire argument is the thread that got Low 2-C accepted was based off of. I read the OP. My contention here is the argument that the "full power of Omnipotence" being what gets you Low 2-C and that everyone who has this is automatically Low 2-C as opposed to something you individually prove (like how this creator God created the universe using Omnipotence, but Shibai clearly didn't and in my opinion wouldn't get this unless he is implied to be able to do this too).

 

[ichimojii]

Here’s what the scan says

"It is said that 'God' used it in the process of creating the world. In other words, it is a programming language for 'Genesis! An absolute will that materializes anything and everything. That is 'Omnipotence."

This is as literal as it gets, not only that but the very definition of “said” that OP linked also can uses as

Genesis just means creation. World doesn't automatically mean universe. Omnipotence can not do anything and everything. Momoshiki says it doesn't work on otsusuki or the user he debunked his own claim

1. utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction.

Momoshiki in this chapter was explaining I.e conveying information about the true nature of Eida’s ability which is Omnipotence and its role as a tool used for creation by God and this was stated multiple times by many mediums

The definition says it's often used to avoid committing to to what is being asserted and the example sentence it gave was in the same context as momoshiki's statement. It the same way religious people claim their god created the universe based on things they heard

I don’t understand, are you saying that since these jutsu are hyperboles (which they are not) that Omnipotence must be one as well.

Yes they are hyperboles

This is just false equivalence and has nothing to do with one another. You have to proof that omnipotence as a standalone ability is hyperbolic. Furthermore even comparing omnipotence to the level of CoAT is such a disingenuous argument cuz Omnipotence is a shinjutsu of shinjutsu, this is important cuz ninjutsu (which is what CoAT is) is a mere imitation of shinjutsu and pales in comparison to it. While Omnipotence is hailed a shinjutsu of shinjutsu

Only stated difference between ninjutsu and shinjutsu is that one doesn't require kneading chakra. Their are some ninjustu that are better then some shinjutsu. For example kamui is better then codes claw mark shinjutsu by miles.

Irrelevant, how does this debunk L2C omnipotence

We never claimed that Shibai made the universe but rather an older ancient oats god did so with the use of omnipotence.

Also the oats devour planets across the entire universe for thousands of years not that clan is that old.

Do you have proof their were otsusuki that didn't eat planets to gain godhood?

Disagree

 

[Foriaa]

Momoshiki even says Omnipotence doesn't work on the user or the caster which completely debunks what he just said. Furthermore the otsutsuki clan is only 1000s of years old according to isshiki so theirs no way they could have made the universe which is more then millions of years old at least

Not even trying to be disrespectful, but did you read the thread at all?

 

[HelloThere1089]

So much of these "arguments" can be snuffed out if the OP did the due diligence of going through the CRT that got this accepted in the first place. It's annoying to repeat all the arguments every single time bruh. There's nothing new here that hadn't been argued to death in that CRT.

Edit: I swear in other verses, CRTs that have nothing new just get thrown out immediately. But we have mods agreeing to this no scan CRT because......Naruto ig?

 

[Robo432343]

i might have agreed if op actually put some effort and scans into this...its just a nothing CRT

 

[Greatsage13th]

With the current counterarguments, I have to disagree with the OP.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

There's a weird claim here. Where was it stated that every Otsutsuki God here would have access to the full power of Omnipotence? Also, in your Olympics analogy, wouldn't the 11 secs range be being Low 2-C here? Since we're assuming that all Olympics 100m runners (aka all Otsutsuki Gods, which is the correct analogue here, not them being the 'minimum requirement') can run in 11 secs at least (being capable wielding Low 2-C power via Omnipotence)? I feel like this is putting the cart before the horse here. Why would they all be Low 2-C with Omnipotence just because they have some mastery over it? I believe our standards are quite a bit stricter for this sort of thing. My issue here is that having mastery over Omnipotence is being treated as being Low 2-C here when I see nothing in the source material (unless you can provide something) proving that.

Only if you prove that having mastery over Omnipotence = automatically Low 2-C. But this is also a weird thing on its own tbh, what does it mean to be "weaker" here in this case if all Otsutsuki Gods have a mastery over Omnipotence here? Not relevant to the removal itself but this seems like a weird claim, given what was said about 'relativity' in the earlier thread

My bad, I glossed over that part.

I'm not. That's literally what the entire argument is the thread that got Low 2-C accepted was based off of. I read the OP. My contention here is the argument that the "full power of Omnipotence" being what gets you Low 2-C and that everyone who has this is automatically Low 2-C as opposed to something you individually prove (like how this creator God created the universe using Omnipotence, but Shibai clearly didn't and in my opinion wouldn't get this unless he is implied to be able to do this too).

Omnipotence can be used properly by an omniscient god. That’s why Eida has no control over it. But oats god who have reached godhod and have such qualities are able to use it as a programming language to create worlds.

Genesis just means creation. World doesn't automatically mean universe. Omnipotence can not do anything and everything. Momoshiki says it doesn't work on otsusuki or the user he debunked his own claim

The use of genesis here is the same as from the Bible so it talks about creation on a universal scale. funny how you say world doesn’t mean universe and at the same time use arguments like “hags was stated to have created the world” in the same thread.

How does this not working on the user and his genetically similar clans members make the claim that it creates universes null. Also it says make any desire come true so its quite literally within its definition.

The definition says it's often used to avoid committing to to what is being asserted and the example sentence it gave was in the same context as momoshiki's statement. It the same way religious people claim their god created the universe based on things they heard

“Often” not always and that hardly matter when their is other uses of the word other than the one you provided and we have already established why the use of “said” fits the definition I have outlined rather than yours in the thread that got it accepted in the first place

Yes they are hyperboles

Why explain, simply claiming such is not enough. Back up your claims.

Only stated difference between ninjutsu and shinjutsu is that one doesn't require kneading chakra. Their are some ninjustu that are better then some shinjutsu. For example kamui is better then codes claw mark shinjutsu by miles.

Not to be disrespectful but have you read the manga? Cuz the difference between shinjutsu is that it does not require hand signs and is fundamentally superior than ninjutsu. Also your opinions on which jutsu is better don’t matter at all.

Do you have proof there were otsusuki that didn't eat planets to gain godhood?

What? My point was that the time frame of thousands of years was for chakra fruit consumption not the clan as a whole. Why are you asking this question?

 

[karo_senpaii]

There's a weird claim here. Where was it stated that every Otsutsuki God here would have access to the full power of Omnipotence? Also, in your Olympics analogy, wouldn't the 11 secs range be being Low 2-C here? Since we're assuming that all Olympics 100m runners (aka all Otsutsuki Gods, which is the correct analogue here, not them being the 'minimum requirement') can run in 11 secs at least (being capable wielding Low 2-C power via Omnipotence)? I feel like this is putting the cart before the horse here. Why would they all be Low 2-C with Omnipotence just because they have some mastery over it? I believe our standards are quite a bit stricter for this sort of thing. My issue here is that having mastery over Omnipotence is being treated as being Low 2-C here when I see nothing in the source material (unless you can provide something) proving that.

You just didn't get my analogy.
11secs is "otsusuki god physciology" which would qualify them to wield omnipotence fully, like a bench mark. It's not some "mastery". Ada isn't an otsusuki so she can't control it. Otsusuki themselves can control it. "Otsusuki god" gives them full mastery over it. You keep forgetting it's not just one scan used . It's a combination of momoshiki statements and the database. The database is explaining further on what momoshiki said "omnipotence was used to create countless worlds" just after saying that power can only be used by otsusuki Gods.

Having mastery over omnipotence isn't treated as low 2c or else even shibai before transcending would have it. Having total mastery over omnipotence and being able to wield the power that is said to have created countless worlds by the expert on all Shinjutsu in combination with the fact that an explanation was later given that it did create everything is what gave it that rating.

Only if you prove that having mastery over Omnipotence = automatically Low 2-C. But this is also a weird thing on its own tbh, what does it mean to be "weaker" here in this case if all Otsutsuki Gods have a mastery over Omnipotence here? Not relevant to the removal itself but this seems like a weird claim, given what was said about 'relativity' in the earlier thread

This simply shows otsusuki Gods have far more to them than omnipotence.
And yeah total mastery over an ability would imply you can do one of the things that said ability has been shown to do

My bad, I glossed over that part.

I'm not. That's literally what the entire argument is the thread that got Low 2-C accepted was based off of. I read the OP. My contention here is the argument that the "full power of Omnipotence" being what gets you Low 2-C and that everyone who has this is automatically Low 2-C as opposed to something you individually prove (like how this creator God created the universe using Omnipotence, but Shibai clearly didn't and in my opinion wouldn't get this unless he is implied to be able to do this too).

Because the reasoning for omnipotence creating worlds is attributed to being an otsusuki God as opposed to attributed to something only the first one could do.
Based on momoshiki explanation, any otsusuki god qualifies

 

[Shadow7001]

Omnipotence can be used properly by an omniscient god. That’s why Eida has no control over it. But oats god who have reached godhod and have such qualities are able to use it as a programming language to create worlds.

I'm assuming this argument comes from this part from the original thread doesn't it?

Furthermore, in chapter 79, Momoshiki tells Boruto that he doesn’t know how many times an Ōtsutsuki who has become a god has manipulated human memory. This means that all divine Ōtsutsuki — all those who have reached godhood — have this same ability to alter human perception. Once again, that shows a kind of relativity. Momoshiki never makes distinctions between them. He doesn’t say “one god did this” or “only one god can do that.” The only specific divine act he refers to is the creation of the world

The issue here is that this only proves that all Otsutsuki Gods can alter human perception using Omnipotence, it does not prove that all Otsutsuki God using Omnipotence wield Low 2-C potency or can create a universe with it. That's an assumption that @karo_senpaii also made that I pointed out. I fail to see how the two relate, just because Momoshiki makes no distinction between Gods who can alter human perception with Omnipotence doesn't automatically mean or prove that there's no distinction between Gods who can use Omnipotence to create Low 2-C worlds. That's not how it works I'm pretty sure, we require stronger evidence for claims so bold.

 

[Shadow7001]

You just didn't get my analogy.
11secs is "otsusuki god physciology" which would qualify them to wield omnipotence fully, like a bench mark. It's not some "mastery". Ada isn't an otsusuki so she can't control it. Otsusuki themselves can control it. "Otsusuki god" gives them full mastery over it. You keep forgetting it's not just one scan used . It's a combination of momoshiki statements and the database. The database is explaining further on what momoshiki said "omnipotence was used to create countless worlds" just after saying that power can only be used by otsusuki Gods.

Having mastery over omnipotence isn't treated as low 2c or else even shibai before transcending would have it. Having total mastery over omnipotence and being able to wield the power that is said to have created countless worlds by the expert on all Shinjutsu in combination with the fact that an explanation was later given that it did create everything is what gave it that rating.

Okay I think I see what's going on here. First of all wasn't that countless worlds claim said to have been a mistranslation in the original thread? Regardless, you're saying that Omnipotence being used to be able to create worlds is stated, that's fine. You're also saying that merely wielding Omnipotence isn't enough to achieve that tier, that's also fine. In that latter paragraph, you're treating Omnipotence and the power to create worlds are two different things, that's weird given what I read, wouldn't they be the same? Because if not, my argument becomes stronger here in that just because Shibai possesses full mastery over Omnipotence doesn't mean he also wields the power to create worlds

But maybe I'm misinterpreting you and Omnipotence IS also the power to create worlds as well, even then, I'm not seeing where it's implied that having total mastery over it = being able to create worlds.

This simply shows otsusuki Gods have far more to them than omnipotence.
And yeah total mastery over an ability would imply you can do one of the things that said ability has been shown to do

That would need to be stated no? That's what I pointed out to @AlternativePrinciple earlier, this only holds for an ability that is being able to alter human perception, where Momoshiki makes no distinction between which of the Otsustsuki Gods may have done it implying that they all should be able to do it, but no such distinction is ever made when it comes to the creation of the world so that's a weak claim IMO especially since it's also a more extraordinary claim and would require stronger evidence

Because the reasoning for omnipotence creating worlds is attributed to being an otsusuki God as opposed to attributed to something only the first one could do.
Based on momoshiki explanation, any otsusuki god qualifies

The Low 2-C argument boils down to this right? Omnipotence = power to create worlds. Otsutsuki God = total mastery over Omnipotence. Therefore, Otsutsuki God = has power to create worlds. My only issue is that something like this should ideally be explicitly stated, or maybe even implicitly perhaps with no vagueness with how Momoshiki did with the alteration of human perception claim essentially implying that any God can do this.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Okay I think I see what's going on here. First of all wasn't that countless worlds claim said to have been a mistranslation in the original thread? Regardless, you're saying that Omnipotence being used to be able to create worlds is stated, that's fine. You're also saying that merely wielding Omnipotence isn't enough to achieve that tier, that's also fine. In that latter paragraph, you're treating Omnipotence and the power to create worlds are two different things, that's weird given what I read, wouldn't they be the same? Because if not, my argument becomes stronger here in that just because Shibai possesses full mastery over Omnipotence doesn't mean he also wields the power to create worlds

But maybe I'm misinterpreting you and Omnipotence IS also the power to create worlds as well, even then, I'm not seeing where it's implied that having total mastery over it = being able to create worlds.

That would need to be stated no? That's what I pointed out to @AlternativePrinciple earlier, this only holds for an ability that is being able to alter human perception, where Momoshiki makes no distinction between which of the Otsustsuki Gods may have done it implying that they all should be able to do it, but no such distinction is ever made when it comes to the creation of the world so that's a weak claim IMO especially since it's also a more extraordinary claim and would require stronger evidence

The Low 2-C argument boils down to this right? Omnipotence = power to create worlds. Otsutsuki God = total mastery over Omnipotence. Therefore, Otsutsuki God = has power to create worlds. My only issue is that something like this should ideally be explicitly stated, or maybe even implicitly perhaps with no vagueness with how Momoshiki did with the alteration of human perception claim essentially implying that any God can do this.

No omnipotence is not creating worlds. It's just one of its uses


Gods created worlds. So yeah momoshiki is attributing it to otsusuki Gods in general. It's also where the "said" the op is clinging to originated from. The database just expatiated on this and gave lore of one of or the first otsusuki god creating the world as we know it.

So a combination of full mastery giving rise to creation of worlds and a further explanation of it's creation process gave rise to the rating. So yeah it's primarily an otsusuki god trait

 

[Shadow7001]

No omnipotence is not creating worlds. It's just one of its uses


Gods created worlds. So yeah momoshiki is attributing it to otsusuki Gods in general. It's also where the "said" the op is clinging to originated from. The database just expatiated on this and gave lore of one of or the first otsusuki god creating the world as we know it.

So a combination of full mastery giving rise to creation of worlds and a further explanation of it's creation process gave rise to the rating. So yeah it's primarily an otsusuki god trait

Isn't the correct translation this?

"The accurate translation from Japanese states that “God created the world, and every constituent of that world was formed through omnipotence.”

This just means that the creator God may have created the universe, not that every Otsutsuki God capable of wielding this technique is able to create them as well. Furthermore, this scan here implies that an Otsutsuki God is a 'peerless, one-of-a-kind' existence. How do you rectify this while also claiming that all Otsutsuki Gods or would-be Gods are capable of all the same feats implicitly? That goes directly against what the source material tells sans abilities that are either explicitly stated or heavily implied to be shared by them (such as alteration of memories/perception).

 

[Tdjwo]

Is OP even trying to be logical? This just seems like malice and bias to me. Disagree entirely imo

 

[KingTempest]

I don’t think agreeing based on personal memory is appropriate here.

Even if you’re familiar with the scans, claims still need to be supported in-thread so other users and moderators can verify them. CRTs are evidence-based, and agreement without scans makes the conclusion non-reviewable and non-transparent, especially for Tier 2 stuff.

You yourself said that OP lacks scans so, the best course should be to wait until they’re provided, not to accept the claim anyway. Otherwise the burden of proof is effectively bypassed, which sets a bad precedent.

You’re dtm. Idk who gave you the notion that I can’t agree based on my memory. Will that agreeal be binding without the proper CRT requirements being fulfilled? No. Am I allowed to agree regardless? Hell yeah

 

[KingTempest]

Regardless hold my agreeal off until scans are provided then

Edit: Scans were provided.

There is nothing on that profile showcasing Universe level+. I definitely agree now.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Isn't the correct translation this?

This just means that the creator God may have created the universe, not that every Otsutsuki God capable of wielding this technique is able to create them as well. Furthermore, this scan here implies that an Otsutsuki God is a 'peerless, one-of-a-kind' existence.

Peerless means

1. unequalled; unrivalled.

This is an adjective that used to describe a particular being or object in a comparative manner. Now who was Momoshiki comparing the oats gods to? He was comparing them to everything beneath them I.e living beings and normal oats, this route of reasoning makes sense as there is no other being like oats gods they are completely unique in their physiology and existence compared to all other living beings and unrivaled in strength and intelligence. Hence a peerless existence. If it was compared to other gods than only a singular oats god would exist but here there are multiple which is contradictory to the word if used the way you are making out it to be.

How do you rectify this while also claiming that all Otsutsuki Gods or would-be Gods are capable of all the same feats implicitly? That goes directly against what the source material tells sans abilities that are either explicitly stated or heavily implied to be shared by them (such as alteration of memories/perception).

As stated before the ability to wield omnipotence is reserved for oats gods alone because of their very nature. It’s an ability that can only be used to its fullest extent by a god alone or else Eida would have full control over it. And the concept of mastery is not a factor for oats as their entire existence is based on the notation of advancement without training. Moreover only a oats god has access to omnipotence you can’t have access to it if your not one. There is also no evidence of higherarcy in the oats godhood so the idea that one can create universe and another one can’t due some assumptive reasoning is not it.

 

[Kaydee1648]

Regardless hold my agreeal off until scans are provided then

Edit: Scans were provided.

There is nothing on that profile showcasing Universe level+. I definitely agree now.

Sorry king, but you’ll actually have to give a reason or specify exactly what you’re agreeing with. Most issues brought up in this thread were already raised and answered in the old one, and then once again dismantled here. Agreeing to a null premise won’t put you in a good light.

 

[KingTempest]

Sorry king, but you’ll actually have to give a reason or specify exactly what you’re agreeing with. Most issues brought up in this thread were already raised and answered in the old one, and then once again dismantled here. Agreeing to a null premise won’t put you in a good light.

Lemme go eat breakfast, this is about to be a long day.

 

[Godernet]

ngl I don't really see an argument that tackles the main points brought up in the previous thread but I'll address some things.

Spoiler: Thoughts on Low 2-C Omnipotence

In the initial thread, the kanji for Momoshiki's statement was directly translated

"In other words, it is the programming language for Genesis, an absolute will that materializes anything and everything, that is Omnipotence." - Momoshiki

Also, this question posed by Momoshiki is pretty interesting for reasons I feel are rarely discussed: "Have you ever contemplated how many times an Otsutsuki who became God may have previously manipulated Humankind's memories?"

So obviously Momo's not saying that previous Otsutsuki Gods flew to Earth specifically to alter their memories, Earth wasn't even a target or known specifically for the wider Otsutsuki Clan to take the energy from over thousands of years into their conquest, so it's not viewed by them as particularly special in any way.

Yet in Momoshiki's eyes, it is very possible that, as an offshoot of an Otsutsuki God, manipulating a larger populace in some way, that Humankind could have been affected in the past, due to the fact that every person's (he didn't even specify human for this one) consciousness is linked via chakra...

...tbh I find it hard to believe he's not talking about the Universe as a whole, especially with the other quote referencing "the genesis of anything and everything", and equating Omnipotence to a programming language of reality, not to mention the adjacent power of Shibai, Prescience, allowing him to see "all possible futures." does add some narrative consistency for these godly powers having meant to be an all encompassing, power that presides over their reality.

In my eyes, this argument that the previous CRT got accepted is pretty solid, all things considered.

Spoiler: Thoughts on the OP

That aside, the argument of Momo just being flowery is pretty weak IMO, especially when comparing it to a Naruto databook.

Databooks are by nature more expressive, whereas in this instance, Momo is being very matter-of-fact about what Omnipotence is to explain to Boruto what this ability is capable of, not to mention Boruto as a series (more specifically, Ikemoto) is usually much more specific about how jutsu work compared to the original series and its databooks, so I don't think the two are comparable.

And Otsutsuki being resistant to Omnipotence's Hax doesn't really contradict or make the statement about its effects on the wider world less viable.

Otsutsuki are themselves practically demigods, with their abilities, Shinjutsu, being defined as miracles or acts of God in the eyes of less mortal species, with their race seemingly being the only one in the Narutoverse we have seen capable of ascending to true Godhood, they are definitely written to be an exception to the rules rather than some kind of inconsistency with Omnipotence's mechanics.

Also, where has it been stated that the Naruto Universe is millions of years old? Or that Isshiki is saying that all Otsutsuki activity has only been going on for thousands of years? It seems to me like he's talking about the custom for the general Otsutsuki populace to scavenge the Universe and grow stronger to eventually become an Otsutsuki God.

Considering being an Otsutsuki God seems to have already been a concept before they set out on this, as it's their whole goal, the concept of an Otsutsuki God has probably existed longer than the actual custom for all Otsutsuki to go around trying to become one.

So yeah, I disagree with this thread.

 

[Accel008]

Your reasons are very strange.
It's like grabbing at any string to reach a desired conclusion.
First, your reason about the word (said) is not interesting at all.
It's like I'm telling you that in the Bible it is said that God created creation in 6 days.
This is just an example so please don't make too much of it.
Now despite this, since we used the word said in our statements, now its authenticity is completely questionable.
So it's completely irrelevant that the story is questionable just because of one word?
Whether that story is true or not is a direct examination within the story and is completely valid until the story shows something to the contrary.
This story has nothing to do with the word said.
Please don't change the literature from what it is to what you want.
This verb neither negates the commitment nor casts doubt on reality.This word as a verb is simply the past tense of a verb and as an adjective it is used to express law and principle.
In its definition as a verb; we have:
past tense and past participle of say
Similarly, in its definition as an adjective we will have:
in law, the one named or mentioned before; aforesaid.
Finally, this statement of yours cannot be considered as a reason or a logical statement at all.
Please do not provide a new definition of the word that does not exist.
Please do not change the literature, whether educational or non-educational, and do not create anything new.
I should also say about exaggeration that not everything is an exaggeration; please do not call everything you come across an exaggeration.
Exaggeration in the term is excessive description or praise and blame.
We will need an adjective that is beyond the impossible, and outside the custom and habit of someone or something, or beyond the usual.You must first prove that you are out of the ordinary, and that about a being whose ordinary and habitual things you know nothing about and you have no reason to exaggerate.
Not every sentence is an exaggeration, you must specify the ordinary and habitual.
For example, in our world, if we say that God, through x, can destroy and create the world infinitely many times to the point of being void and non-existent.
This is undoubtedly a high degree of exaggeration, but it is not an exaggeration at all, because there is no ordinary thing from God that is contrary to this action.
Likewise, about the ten tails; it seems that you have forgotten that we have yin and yang energies, one for embodiment and materialization and the other for animating.
It was said that the tree of God gave life to the entire universe.
This story is completely without a problem because God created.
In this case, the Tree of God is not a being that is independent of God, but rather a tool and manifestation of His power to give life.
Because the actions are different and their functions are also different.
In the end, it doesn't make a difference. Both actions belong to God, and whoever becomes God has the ability to do such a thing. You don't violate anything.
If you want to use this as a contradiction, it is not right and completely wrong.
If I need proof or a scan for any of the statements and claims in my story, I will send it.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Is OP even trying to be logical? This just seems like malice and bias to me. Disagree entirely imo

Typically I wouldn't target someone's motivation for a thread but this one is so piss poor in quality it looks like it's made simply because the OP is frustrated that a verse he dislikes does not get attacked as much he wishes it did

 

[Tdjwo]

Regardless hold my agreeal off until scans are provided then

Edit: Scans were provided.

There is nothing on that profile showcasing Universe level+. I definitely agree now.

Ngl you're being biased and illogical. Weird coming from a staff member. But then again, you're a one piece fan. Not trying to be rude but not surprised considering your history. How can a staff member not even give explanations on why they agree/disagree over something as important as this and despite acknowledging the OP provided close to know evidences initially, still went ahead to make a conclusion? @Godernet made his points as a staff and here you are being slick. Like how are we supposed to take a staff like this seriously?

Lemme go eat breakfast, this is about to be a long day.

 

[Tdjwo]

Typically I wouldn't target someone's motivation for a thread but this one is so piss poor in quality it looks like it's made simply because the OP is frustrated that a verse he dislikes does not get as attacked as much he wishes it did

Nah the motive here is very clear. When supporters show you blatant evidences and scans all you can can reply with is oh this is not what he meant bla bla bla, it just shows its pointless engaging further. So frustrating.