Shibai Otsutsuki Universal+ Removel

[Nerd1435]

Can the original post be updated with KT and shadow's points as well? Just to form a more solid argument for the OP

 

[KingTempest]

one of you guys should lowk ping the staff who interacted with the upgrade thread to see if their opinions changed after these pages of back and forth

@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 (you owe meeee) @Vietthai96

 

[AyOgUyS]

one of you guys should lowk ping the staff who interacted with the upgrade thread to see if their opinions changed after these pages of back and forth

if only I was a thread mod...i'd be the best one ever

 

[Kaydee1648]

I think it’s best to wait for a proper response from the supporters in the previous thread before calling any staff.
There’s no rush.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Even with a translator it doesn't make a difference. Genesis has no reason to mean BIRTH OF THE UNIVERSE

Aight then, let me ask you, do you think it means the planet then? because Momoshiki's statement was:

"it is said that 'God' used it in the process of creating the world. In other words it is a programming language for 'Genesis'"
If it is just Earth, what reason does Momoshiki has to call a random planet "the world"?

Weren’t you trying to say that it directly referred to cosmological creation and nothing else?
That was the gist I got from your comment.

reread my comment. It was to clarify that the word doesn't refer to just the creation of something, but that it has cosmic ties.

buddy you can't just connect anything to mythology bruh

I'm not connecting it tho. That's what the translator gave me. Feel free to translate it yourself.

 

[Foriaa]

I think it’s best to wait for a proper response from the supporters in the previous thread before calling any staff.
There’s no rush.

It's just that there are multiple pages of back and forth with similar talking points from the previous thread, most of the shit said here for why shibai should still maintain his tier was already said in the upgrade thread

 

[KingTempest]

Aight then, let me ask you, do you think it means the planet then? because Momoshiki's statement was:

"it is said that 'God' used it in the process of creating the world. In other words it is a programming language for 'Genesis'"
If it is just Earth, what reason does Momoshiki has to call a random planet "the world"?

reread my comment. It was to clarify that the word doesn't refer to creation of something, but that it has cosmic ties.

I'm not connecting it tho. That's what the translator gave me. Feel free to translate it yourself.

I think it means planet because in the literal same chapter he talks about HUMANKIND and that multiple gods used this to make multiple worlds.

Like are we forgetting that the ORIGINAL revealed purpose of omnipotence was to rewrite? Why are we acting like its only purpose was to create the universe or something?

The purpose of it is for planetary effect. It's not ever shown or stated to be this universal shit

 

[Kaydee1648]

It's just that there are multiple pages of back and forth with similar talking points from the previous thread, most of the shit said here for why shibai should still maintain his tier was already said in the upgrade thread

I was referring to KT’s post, which isn’t quite in alignment with the OP.

 

[Shadow7001]

Aight then, let me ask you, do you think it means the planet then? because Momoshiki's statement was:

"it is said that 'God' used it in the process of creating the world. In other words it is a programming language for 'Genesis'"
If it is just Earth, what reason does Momoshiki has to call a random planet "the world"?

Maybe not, but we don't immediately assume it means a universal space-time continuum either. As much as I dislike the OP for being poorly constructed, this very much is a classic case of hyperbole along with the fact that it is still a very vague statement no matter how you slice it. So once again, it's best to wait for more concrete evidence in such cases and, certainly, assuming the highest interpretations for things like these isn't really how this works.

reread my comment. It was to clarify that the word doesn't refer to creation of something, but that it has cosmic ties.

It doesn't. Not necessarily, the term genesis, especially as often used in fiction, refers usually to creation. I mean, we even have the term "Genesis Dimension" in Naruto too, and that just refers to a main dimension that all of Kaguya's other dimensions were connected to. I don't necessarily see evidence here that it has to be cosmic/universal in nature (and FYI, planet would still be cosmic)

 

[HelloThere1089]

I think it means planet because in the literal same chapter he talks about HUMANKIND and that multiple gods used this to make multiple worlds.

Like are we forgetting that the ORIGINAL revealed purpose of omnipotence was to rewrite? Why are we acting like its only purpose was to create the universe or something?

The purpose of it is for planetary effect. It's not ever shown or stated to be this universal shit

Just because it is in the same chapter doesn't mean it is talking about the same aspect of the ability. The humankind comment was specifically in connection to what Ada did to Boruto and Kawaki and by extension the humankind. So if she's able to do that, that calls into question what the gods might have done. That is separate from the statement where Momoshiki introduces Omnipotence as the programming language of the world that was used in the process of creating it. I don't see how one relates to the other.

 

[Richardo908]

Omnipotence actually did affect the universe or another dimension depending on how you look at it. Code was in another dimension outside the main universe and he was still affected so...

 

[Exoko]

reread my comment. It was to clarify that the word doesn't refer to creation of something, but that it has cosmic ties.

I think you got a bit mixed up, you were trying to say that it referred to the creation of everything (the entire cosmology), and was not limited in capacity to a few worlds.

The AI translation you brought up was biased (‘akin to your meaning’), and gave a different answer when there was no prior chat history.

I think we should just get a translator since I really don’t want to get in a back and forth, it would better to just get it done with cleanly.

 

[KingTempest]

Omnipotence actually did affect the universe or another dimension depending on how you look at it. Code was in another dimension outside the main universe and he was still affected so...

so big range. not showing anything of universal generation.

Just because it is in the same chapter doesn't mean it is talking about the same aspect of the ability. The humankind comment was specifically in connection to what Ada did to Boruto and Kawaki and by extension the humankind. So if she's able to do that, that calls into question what the gods might have done. That is separate from the statement where Momoshiki introduces Omnipotence as the programming language of the world that was used in the process of creating it. I don't see how one relates to the other.

i can understand this but in the same breath i'm just tackling the lack of context speaking about how it has no reason to refer to universe

it can refer to multiple planets like the viz says but i don't understand why it needs to mean universe

 

[KingTempest]

It doesn't. Not necessarily, the term genesis, especially as often used in fiction, refers usually to creation. I mean, we even have the term "Genesis Dimension" in Naruto too, and that just refers to a main dimension that all of Kaguya's other dimensions were connected to. I don't necessarily see evidence here that it has to be cosmic/universal in nature (and FYI, planet would still be cosmic)

God bless you

 

[Shadow7001]

Okay I'm just gonna get this outta the way too. The range argument doesn't hold up. For one, Eida's ability to alter memory showed interdimensional range, to say that this means that the creation ability from the Gods must be universal in scale is a massive leap on logic with several steps missing. For example, these are two entirely, fundamentally different abilities for our tiering purposes even if they both come from Omnipotence. Second, interdimensional != universal, not even close. And lastly, the in-universe range was actually shown to be planetary even visually too so I'm not sure why this is even a part of the previous OP. Come on guys, this is not good evidence.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Maybe not, but we don't immediately assume it means a universal space-time continuum either. As much as I dislike the OP for being poorly constructed, this very much is a classic case of hyperbole along with the fact that it is still a very vague statement no matter how you slice it. So once again, it's best to wait for more concrete evidence in such cases and, certainly, assuming the highest interpretations for things like these isn't really how this works.

Highest interpretation? Sosei can refer either to universe, world, or society afaik. I already gave my point as to why it makes no sense to be referring to planet. So universe is the interpretation I have to go with. If you think it can be planet, then feel free to address the point I have made.

It doesn't. Not necessarily, the term genesis, especially as often used in fiction, refers usually to creation. I mean, we even have the term "Genesis Dimension" in Naruto too, and that just refers to a main dimension that all of Kaguya's other dimensions were connected to. I don't necessarily see evidence here that it has to be cosmic/universal in nature (and FYI, planet would still be cosmic)

Are you referring to the english word genesis or the Kanji of sosei? The latter isn't just the creation of something. I already stated this before. And as for the planet vs universe thing, I addressed that too above.

i can understand this but in the same breath i'm just tackling the lack of context speaking about how it has no reason to refer to universe

it can refer to multiple planets like the viz says but i don't understand why it needs to mean universe

My thought process is basically:
1. It is used to create "the world" as told my an outsider like Momoshiki
2. It is called the programming language of the creation of the world. Meaning it is very fundamental to the laws. Which doesn't make sense for a planet.
3. The word sosei is used which as I am understanding, has mythological connotations, connecting it to Genesis and not just creation of anything.

The reason why I think it is not referring to the planet is because of how Momoshiki phrases it and the specific usage of the word Genesis. I know you have argued that sosei can refer to the creation of the planet as well if the mythology only centers around the Earth. However I do think the surounding context points more towards the universe due to the fact that real world mythologies don't usually use creation of the world to mean the creation of a planet, but the beginning of everything. That combined with Momoshiki calling it "the world" gives me more confidence that Momoshiki wasn't introducing the ultimate ability of Omnipotence as the power to create a random planet that he couldn't have known about if he didn't follow Kaguya. But of course you can disagree with my interpretation.

 

[Richardo908]

Okay I'm just gonna get this outta the way too. The range argument doesn't hold up. For one, Eida's ability to alter memory showed interdimensional range, to say that this means that the creation ability from the Gods must be universal in scale is a massive leap on logic with several steps missing. For example, these are two entirely, fundamentally different abilities for our tiering purposes even if they both come from Omnipotence. Second, interdimensional != universal, not even close. And lastly, the in-universe range was actually shown to be planetary even visually too so I'm not sure why this is even a part of the previous OP. Come on guys, this is not good evidence.

The inverse range actually does not cap at planetary we saw the wave of energy leaving the planet,but don't know how far it traveled we do know that it affected code who was in another dimension at the time which is outside the main Naruto universe. So no the range is not planetary

 

[Shadow7001]

Highest interpretation? Sosei can refer either to universe, world, or society afaik. I already gave my point as to why it makes no sense to be referring to planet. So universe is the interpretation I have to go with. If you think it can be planet, then feel free to address the point I have made.

That is not at all what the term Sosei means. I'm assuming you meant Sekai here, in which case the point stands, it doesn't have to be universe either. By the way, the term Sekai is often used in a more abstract concept too, sometimes it doesn't even refer to anything tangible such as a planet or society (the term society itself being a rather umbrella term).

Are you referring to the english word genesis or the Kanji of sosei? The latter isn't just the creation of something. I already stated this before. And as for the planet vs universe thing, I addressed that too above.

Again, please check what Sosei actually means.

 

[Shadow7001]

The inverse range actually does not cap at planetary we saw the wave of energy leaving the planet,but don't know how far it traveled we do know that it affected code who was in another dimension at the time which is outside the main Naruto universe. So no the range is not planetary

From what we saw, it covered the planet which I think is fair to call planetary. It being a bit above earth's atmosphere isn't really an argument that would lead you anywhere. But that's pointless because it did have interdimensional range but like I said, that is a far cry from universal anything.

 

[KingTempest]

Okay I'm just gonna get this outta the way too. The range argument doesn't hold up. For one, Eida's ability to alter memory showed interdimensional range, to say that this means that the creation ability from the Gods must be universal in scale is a massive leap on logic with several steps missing. For example, these are two entirely, fundamentally different abilities for our tiering purposes even if they both come from Omnipotence. Second, interdimensional != universal, not even close. And lastly, the in-universe range was actually shown to be planetary even visually too so I'm not sure why this is even a part of the previous OP. Come on guys, this is not good evidence.

on top of this, code is multi dimensional through mini portals he makes on earth. it coulda easily went through his portals on earth. regardless he's tied to the earth's location so it isn't good support when he's eternally tied to earth

My thought process is basically:
1. It is used to create "the world" as told my an outsider like Momoshiki
2. It is called the programming language of the creation of the world. Meaning it is very fundamental to the laws. Which doesn't make sense for a planet.
3. The word sosei is used which as I am understanding, has mythological connotations, connecting it to Genesis and not just creation of anything.

The reason why I think it is not referring to the planet is because of how Momoshiki phrases it and the specific usage of the word Genesis. I know you have argued that sosei can refer to the creation of the planet as well if the mythology only centers around the Earth. However I do think the surounding context points more towards the universe due to the fact that real world mythologies don't usually use creation of the world to mean the creation of a planet, but the beginning of everything. That combined with Momoshiki calling it "the world" gives me more confidence that Momoshiki wasn't introducing the ultimate ability of Omnipotence as the power to create a random planet that he couldn't have known about if he didn't follow Kaguya. But of course you can disagree with my interpretation.

There is quite literally only 1 belief system in the history of the universe to utilize genesis. Only 1. And it's the abrahamic faith root of the book of Genesis.

Funny thing with that too, even in that faith, it isn't a universal feat. it's a large void of empty space that makes individual sections one at a time. planet by planet star by star etc.

So even in that you can't use that.

on top of that, we literally have a prequel series where they do and say THE EXACT SAME THINGS OVER AND OVER.

Like look

 

[Richardo908]

From what we saw, it covered the planet which I think is fair to call planetary. It being a bit above earth's atmosphere isn't really an argument that would lead you anywhere. But that's pointless because it did have interdimensional range but like I said, that is a far cry from universal anything.

An omnipotence that was weilded by eida an imperfect being was capable of reaching inter dimensional being I don't think it's a far cry to think that one weilded by a god should be capable of reaching universal range

 

[HelloThere1089]

That is not at all what the term Sosei means. I'm assuming you meant Sekai here, in which case the point stands, it doesn't have to be universe either. By the way, the term Sekai is often used in a more abstract concept too, sometimes it doesn't even refer to anything tangible such as a planet or society (the term society itself being a rather umbrella term).

Again, please check what Sosei actually means.

Did you just not read my reply at all then?

Spoiler: Translations

"創世" in Japanese translates to "creation of the world" or "genesis" (specifically the cosmic or primordial creation), rather than generic creation of something.[en.wiktionary]

• 創 (sō): creation, establishment.
• 世 (sei): world, generation.[en.wiktionary]

Commonly refers to mythological origins (e.g., "創世神話" for creation myths) or biblical Genesis, not everyday inventions.[ejje.weblio]

And regarding the rest of your comment, you have ignored my entire argument if this is what you reply with. Please reread it and address it. I can't be repeating my words.

 

[Shadow7001]

An omnipotence that was weilded by eida an imperfect being was capable of reaching inter dimensional being I don't think it's a far cry to think that one weilded by a god should be capable of reaching universal range

That's not how it works here my friend. You must bring explicit, undeniable evidence for your claims. Saying stuff like "hey look this is universal now prove otherwise!" has never been a successful argument.

 

[Richardo908]

on top of this, code is multi dimensional through mini portals he makes on earth. it coulda easily went through his portals on earth. regardless he's tied to the earth's location so it isn't good support when he's eternally tied to earth

There is quite literally only 1 belief system in the history of the universe to utilize genesis. Only 1. And it's the abrahamic faith root of the book of Genesis.

Funny thing with that too, even in that faith, it isn't a universal feat. it's a large void of empty space that makes individual sections one at a time. planet by planet star by star etc.

So even in that you can't use that.

on top of that, we literally have a prequel series where they do and say THE EXACT SAME THINGS OVER AND OVER.

Like look

We have zero and I mean zero evidence to prove that eida omnipotence might have traveled through his claw marks you literally cannot prove this.

Also using the coat as evidence makes no sense since there were written by two different authors ikemoto and kishimoto. And if I remember correctly ikemoto does not use hype statement like kishimoto

 

[HelloThere1089]

There is quite literally only 1 belief system in the history of the universe to utilize genesis. Only 1. And it's the abrahamic faith root of the book of Genesis.

Funny thing with that too, even in that faith, it isn't a universal feat. it's a large void of empty space that makes individual sections one at a time. planet by planet star by star etc.

Pretty sure in abrahamic faith, everything is created by god, even the spacetime. So not sure how the timeframe argument would work here. Are you arguing that the Christian god started creating after the spacetime already existed?

on top of that, we literally have a prequel series where they do and say THE EXACT SAME THINGS OVER AND OVER.

Like look

I have already addressed this part earlier lemme paste it:
"Moving on to the point about COAT, most of its description is talking about what it "can" do, and not what it has done. Just because it can create anything from nothing, doesn't mean that the universe was created using it. The only statement that gives that gist is a hype statement that is prevalent in databooks. Momoshiki on the other hand is pretty descriptive on what actually has happened, which is supported by the databooks as well. So that one is inconsequential as well."

 

[KingTempest]

We have zero and I mean zero evidence to prove that eida omnipotence might have traveled through his claw marks you literally cannot prove this.

It's theory but it's better than assuming that it went to the complete boundaries of the universe. Regardless do not give it much emphasis

Also using the coat as evidence makes no sense since there were written by two different authors ikemoto and kishimoto. And if I remember correctly ikemoto does not use hype statement like kishimoto

Literally everybody does

 

[Shadow7001]

Did you just not read my reply at all then?

Spoiler: Translations

"創世" in Japanese translates to "creation of the world" or "genesis" (specifically the cosmic or primordial creation), rather than generic creation of something.[en.wiktionary]

• 創 (sō): creation, establishment.
• 世 (sei): world, generation.[en.wiktionary]

Commonly refers to mythological origins (e.g., "創世神話" for creation myths) or biblical Genesis, not everyday inventions.[ejje.weblio]

And regarding the rest of your comment, you have ignored my entire argument if this is what you reply with. Please reread it and address it. I can't be repeating my words.

F**k this language

Anyway my bad on that part, I sent the wrong kanji. With that said, this still isn't exactly strong evidence to support Low 2-C creation IMO (in fact it's weird that it's Low 2-C at all since Genesis obviously never referred to creation of time as far as my knowledge goes but maybe someone can correct me on that) since this is mostly just an appeal to mythology (the term Genesis itself is exclusively a Biblical/Abrahamic one). I mean, during those times our understanding over the 'universe' was barely more than what our eyes could see. This is why an appeal to mythology is never a strong argument. I'll be completely real, this very much is hyperbole in how vague it is both when it comes to the term of creation as well as the creation itself. I still maintain that this can't be tiered until further concrete evidence arrives.

 

[KingTempest]

Pretty sure in abrahamic faith, everything is created by god, even the spacetime. So not sure how the timeframe argument would work here. Are you arguing that the Christian god started creating after the spacetime already existed?

Yeah but the standards for the wiki work completely different especially when the thread is trying to say that the otsutsuki thought and literally everything came into existence by then

Ignore the abrahamic faith specifics, i'm talking about the differences and how you can't use it 1:1

I have already addressed this part earlier lemme paste it:
"Moving on to the point about COAT, most of its description is talking about what it "can" do, and not what it has done. Just because it can create anything from nothing, doesn't mean that the universe was created using it. The only statement that gives that gist is a hype statement that is prevalent in databooks. Momoshiki on the other hand is pretty descriptive on what actually has happened, which is supported by the databooks as well. So that one is inconsequential as well."

"The secret jutsu that created all things from naught" this is literally a statement of its history, which when given context, is bs

 

[KingTempest]

Honestly we need the statement and the actual piece by piece translation saying that the otsutsuki gods created the universe. So far we don't even have that

 

[HelloThere1089]

F**k this language

Real

Anyway my bad on that part, I sent the wrong kanji. With that said, this still isn't exactly strong evidence to support Low 2-C creation IMO (in fact it's weird that it's Low 2-C at all since Genesis obviously never referred to creation of time as far as my knowledge goes but maybe someone can correct me on that) since this is mostly just an appeal to mythology (the term Genesis itself is a Biblical/Abrahamic concept). I mean, during those times our understanding over the 'universe' was barely more than what our eyes could see. This is why an appeal to mythology is never a strong argument. I'll be completely real, this very much is hyperbole in how vague it is both when it comes to the term of creation as well as the creation itself. I still maintain that this can't be tiered until further concrete evidence arrives.

My thoughts on this is that, it doesn't matter what the writers of the myth itself thought, but what the believers now think because that's the interpretation they are referring to in their fictional works. So if current Christians think that God created everything including spacetime, then that's what Ikemoto had in mind most likely because he is alive rn and not 2000 years ago.

"The secret jutsu that created all things from naught" this is literally a statement of its history, which when given context, is bs

I have already commented on how that one line isn't supported as universe creation by the very text in that same page, while Momoshiki's statement is. So using COAT to debunk Omnipotence doesn't work imo. Not to mention, COAT one is a single hype statement in a databook that is notorious for having those.

 

[Exoko]

Did you just not read my reply at all then?

Spoiler: Translations

"創世" in Japanese translates to "creation of the world" or "genesis" (specifically the cosmic or primordial creation), rather than generic creation of something.[en.wiktionary]

• 創 (sō): creation, establishment.
• 世 (sei): world, generation.[en.wiktionary]

Commonly refers to mythological origins (e.g., "創世神話" for creation myths) or biblical Genesis, not everyday inventions.[ejje.weblio]

And regarding the rest of your comment, you have ignored my entire argument if this is what you reply with. Please reread it and address it. I can't be repeating my words.

Why’d you bring up the AI translation again?
That has already been dealt with, it is incorrect + isn’t even allowed here.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, I can't be the only one that notices that Momoshiki's statement is:

"It is said that 'God' used it in the process of creating the world. In other words it is a programming language for 'Genesis"

"It is said".

Who said it? Is it a statement of fact Momoshiki heard at one point? A rumor? A myth?

We're going off of second-hand hearsay here.

 

[KingTempest]

I have already commented on how that one line isn't supported as universe creation by the very text in that same page, while Momoshiki's statement is. So using COAT to debunk Omnipotence doesn't work imo. Not to mention, COAT one is a single hype statement in a databook that is notorious for having those.

It literally has equal context as the momoshiki one. NONE.

Honestly we need the statement and the actual piece by piece translation saying that the otsutsuki gods created the universe. So far we don't even have that

I need this statement too.

Also, I can't be the only one that notices that Momoshiki's statement is:



"It is said".

Who said it? Is it a statement of fact Momoshiki heard at one point? A rumor? A myth?

We're going off of second-hand hearsay here.

I'm giving it more lax cause the website says he outright did it.

I need the statement translated. The original translation made it seem like otsutsuki gods did stuff but that thread's translation made it seem like God of the bible did it. I need a valid translation, not any of that ai slop

 

[HelloThere1089]

Why’d you bring up the AI translation again?
That has already been dealt with, it is incorrect + isn’t even allowed here.

Reread my comment. He asked which word I am referring to. That word has nothing to do with the translations.....

 

[Richardo908]

Also, I can't be the only one that notices that Momoshiki's statement is:



"It is said".

Who said it? Is it a statement of fact Momoshiki heard at one point? A rumor? A myth?

We're going off of second-hand hearsay here.

You do realize that the data books just straight up confirms momoshiki statements right

 

[Shadow7001]

Pretty sure in abrahamic faith, everything is created by god, even the spacetime. So not sure how the timeframe argument would work here. Are you arguing that the Christian god started creating after the spacetime already existed?

Spacetime wasn't even a concept at that time dude.... And no, before you ask, an argument from silence doesn't help you here. If you're claiming they created space-time too, you need to prove it since Biblically, that's not how creation happened.

 

[KingTempest]

Honestly we need the statement and the actual piece by piece translation saying that the otsutsuki gods created the universe. So far we don't even have that

Can we get this?

 

[Damage3245]

You do realize that the data books just straight up confirms momoshiki statements right

I haven't read every databook for every series.

 

[Shadow7001]

Also can I just add how nonsensical this argument seems now? So we're arguing that there is some creator God from some different universe, without even having proven that different universes are a thing in the verse at all, created this universe; where another Otsutsuki God is supposed to be born eventually so he'd supposedly do what the creator God once did as well, or at least can? This entire point is held up by pure conjecture here.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Spacetime wasn't even a concept at that time dude....

Did you just....ignore my reply to you? It addresses this specifically.

And no, before you ask, an argument from silence doesn't help you here. If you're claiming they created space-time too, you need to prove it since Biblically, that's not how creation happened.

Regarding this, I'd let the expert handle this, the one who made the CRT.