• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Shibai Otsutsuki Universal+ Removel

Status
Not open for further replies.
Shadow7001 said:
Also can I just add how nonsensical this argument seems now? So we're arguing that there is some creator God from some different universe, without even having proven that different universes are a thing in the verse at all, created this universe; where another Otsutsuki God is supposed to be born eventually so he'd supposedly do what the creator God once did as well, or at least can? This entire point is held up by pure conjecture here.
Click to expand...
so on top of that we can't even prove that shibai has the capability of doing what this mystical fool can do
 
HelloThere1089 said:
Real

My thoughts on this is that, it doesn't matter what the writers of the myth itself thought, but what the believers now think because that's the interpretation they are referring to in their fictional works. So if current Christians think that God created everything including spacetime, then that's what Ikemoto had in mind most likely because he is alive rn and not 2000 years ago.
Click to expand...
Eh, no. That's not how Biblical interpretations work. Look I don't wanna get into a religious debate on VSBW of all places, but that's not how this works. It would be a case of heresy if you were to say something contradictory to the Bible. In any case, this doesn't even matter because the wiki's standards alone for things like these are much stronger. You typically need statements for space-time or at least time, that's just how it is. The argument that 'well a few Christians MIGHT think God created space-time' being used as evidence for powerscaling is honestly baffling.
 
It's respectfully dogshit.

I'm looking at the original thread and the entire proof is just this Genesis tie. It doesn't even say book of genesis it just says creation of the world, and because of that you're trying to force it to mean 創世記 (The account of the creation of the world/The book of Genesis) instead of 創世 (The creation of the world)
 
HelloThere1089 said:
Did you just....ignore my reply to you? It addresses this specifically.

Regarding this, I'd let the expert handle this, the one who made the CRT.
Click to expand...
I did not ignore it, I just don't agree with it at all. We're not powerscaling based off of different sects of Christianity and what its believers believe now. Come on dude please, this is pure desperation here.
 
Shadow7001 said:
Also can I just add how nonsensical this argument seems now? So we're arguing that there is some creator God from some different universe, without even having proven that different universes are a thing in the verse at all, created this universe; where another Otsutsuki God is supposed to be born eventually so he'd supposedly do what the creator God once did as well, or at least can? This entire point is held up by pure conjecture here.
Click to expand...
Ok so while looking at the boruto database I found this this scan makes mention of the term present world which simply means there was a previous world so the first otsutsuki god might have just harvested his chakra fruit from the previous world
 
Richardo908 said:
Ok so while looking at the boruto database I found this this scan makes mention of the term present world which simply means there was a previous world so the first otsutsuki god might have just harvested his chakra fruit from the previous world
Click to expand...

No.

You can live in your current house and previously be homeless.

This is just an annoying leap of logic.
 
Shadow7001 said:
The argument that 'well a few Christians MIGHT think God created space-time' being used as evidence for powerscaling is honestly baffling.
Click to expand...
Idk, I looked it up online, and the consensus pretty much is that God predates time. Not sure why you think most Christians think time existed before God.
 
「神」が世界を創る過程で用いたとされる
言わば「創世」のためのプログラミング言語
何もかもを具現化する絶対の意思
それが「全能」だ

We need this translated by someone credible. This genesis universal bullshit is gonna piss me off
 
Can we get more staff here bro that work with japanese verses

I'm not boutta go back and forth with this sekai ass wording without a single staff member other than Damage
 
Richardo908 said:
Are you suggesting that the term World used by the data book refers to a planet because we don't have any reason to believe that the otsutsuki god came to the Naruto planet its only logical to think it means universe
Click to expand...
No I just think it's a severe case of vagueness here once again. You know how? Even the term "present" attached to the world only just makes it more confusing even if you say that world = universe here. It doesn't make sense for there to be a "past universe" if you're arguing that there are different universes. This once again just keeps me bringing back to the fact that it was a horrible idea from the start to tier this right now (at its highest possible interpretation too) without awaiting further concrete evidence that would've clarified things.
 
KingTempest said:
「神」が世界を創る過程で用いたとされる
言わば「創世」のためのプログラミング言語
何もかもを具現化する絶対の意思
それが「全能」だ

We need this translated by someone credible. This genesis universal bullshit is gonna piss me off
Click to expand...
word
It is said to be the programming language that "God" used in the process of "creating the world".
The absolute will that manifests anything and everything.
That is "Omnipotence".

創世 by itself, in all of the J-J dictionaries i looked at, essentially translates to "the creation of the world" [using the same sekai, none of them specify universe or planet or whatever]
like KT mentioned above you have 創世記 which is specifically the book of genesis from the old testament but that's not the same word
 
SeijiSetto said:
word
It is said to be the programming language that "God" used in the process of "creating the world".
The absolute will that manifests anything and everything.
That is "Omnipotence".

創世 by itself, in all of the J-J dictionaries i looked at, essentially translates to "the creation of the world" [using the same sekai, none of them specify universe or planet or whatever]
like KT mentioned above you have 創世記 which is specifically the book of genesis from the old testament but that's not the same word
Click to expand...
Thank you Seiji.

So it’s another vague world creation statement.

With that in mind I fail to see why it would refer to universe when it hasn’t nearly shown that scale.
 
Huh, am I the only one who thinks that;

It is said to be the programming language that "God" used in the process of "creating the world".
Click to expand...
And;
It is the power/technique used to create the 'current world'
Click to expand...
Have subtly different implications? Like, one says that it was used in the process of creating the world, while the latter (the interpretation of this text from previous OP to be specific) puts more emphasis on the fact that the technique/power is what was used to create the world, something that doesn't seem supported in the source material as of this latest translation?
 
Shadow7001 said:
Huh, am I the only one who thinks that;


And;

Have subtly different implications? Like, one says that it was used in the process of creating the world, while the latter (the interpretation of this text from previous OP to be specific) puts more emphasis on the fact that the technique/power is what was used to create the world, something that doesn't seem supported in the source material as of this latest translation?
Click to expand...
I’m lost and slow, elaborate
 
So I'd like to take a second to highlight a couple of things about Otsutsuki lore to make my stance on this a bit more comprehensive

Otsutsuki Lore
  • Otsutsuki have made it their creed for the last thousands of years to scatter the universe and eat countless planets in order to potentially ascend to Godhood.
  • The Otsutsuki are the only beings in the Naruto universe capable of using Shinjutsu, or "Divine Techniques," allowing them to perform phenomena in various ways that no other race can do.
  • Otsutsuki are the only race of people immune to the effects of their own Divine Techniques.
  • Various Otsutsuki Gods have existed at different points of time (whether this was before or after the Otsutsuki made it their creed to individually spread out the universe as a race to all attempt to become Otsutsuki Gods is completely unknown)
  • The actual age of the Naruto Universe is completely unknown. (Not Otsutsuki lore, but relevant to the OP, so I figured I'd point it out)
  • Shibai existed at one point, as seemingly the only Otsutsuki God that the Otsutsuki even knew the name of, and was stated to be capable of using every single Shinjutsu ability.
  • As he ascended to Otsutsuki Godhood, Shibai ascended from the material plane, in what Amado hypothesizes and Momoshiki confirms to be a Higher Dimensional Existence, leaving his body behind.

Known Shinjutsu Abilities

  • Kashin Koji's Prescience ability is an ability described as seeing every possible future.
  • Eida's Senrigan allows her to launch her consciousness anywhere to see anything, even to completely different dimensions or into the past (only up to her Birth)
  • Otsutsuki are naturally capable of manipulating space for travel or shifting the world around them to different dimensions, like with an ability like Kaguya's Amenominaka.
  • Omnipotence, which is also described as the "Shinjutsu of Shinjutsu", is said to be the programming language of the Otsutsuki Gods, allowing them to essentially inflict their will on reality (rewriting the minds of anyone as all people are connected via chakra, even in other dimensions like with Code; creating worlds, and just the general ability to affect the building blocks of reality)

Given what we know, to me, Ikemoto's intent with Shibai was to create a being of all-encompassing power (called a peerless existence within the story already) in the Naruto universe, something whose relevance extends beyond the Earth and more to the scale of the Otsutsuki themselves, planet-eating, basically Demi-God Aliens who operate across the entire universe. (It's pretty common for Authors when trying to make an infallible being to grant them jurisdiction over everything the main cast can fathom/directly interact with)

Which is pretty consistent with Shibai's ascension to a higher Dimension, Divine abilities that have already been stated or implied to have tier 2 range (Senringan and Prescience), with Omnipotence being the one that surpasses them all, quite literally being called the "Shinjutsu of Shinjutsu" or "Divine Ability of Divine Abilities".

Also, Shinjutsu's direct statements of being the programming language for the reality of the Otsutsuki Gods. And the fact that Earth as a planet is so insignificant to the Otsutsuki that it was allowed to exist for thousands of years as the current Otsutsuki travelled across the universe in search of planets to absorb, and wasn't even a place of significance to them until it eventually became their target many millennia later.

And as I've stated in my previous comment, Momoshiki's "How many times do you think Humanity has had its memories manipulated", doesn't strike me as a comment saying that an Otsutsuki God went to Earth and messed with humanity specifically; that doesn't really make sense with the rest of Otsutsuki lore.

Considering his very last statement prior to that was how Omnipotence essentially allows you to manipulate the building blocks of Reality, it seems more like Momoshiki was just trying to appeal to Boruto's sense of scale.

More straightforwardly: "This ability can affect reality itself; think of all the ways humanity has likely been affected by this in the past."

I don't think Sekai, in this context, being one individual planet, makes sense here, given the scope the Otsutsuki generally operate, the scale of these other Shinjutsu being all encompassing on a Universal scale, and Shibai's status as a "peerless higher dimensional being", with Omnipotence being the ultimate Shinjutsu of said peerless being.

It being in reference to the wider Universe makes far more sense.

And while I do think I understand where some fellow staff are coming from, wanting a statement that directly says "an Otsutsuki God created the current Naruto universe with Omnipotence.", but I believe we already have been given enough from the lore to come to a conclusion.

At worse I can see a Possibly Low 2-C if other staff have a similar concern over very specific verbiage or lack thereof, as KT and Damage do.
 
Last edited:
I have a question for you @Godernet and other staff

If there was a statement saying that the Otsutsuki who made the "current world" went through the process of evolution through the god trees and such, which require the universe, how would that change your viewpoint?

Because my whole issue is that all of this "he created the current universe" is literally impossible if the universe predates them.
 
KingTempest said:
I have a question for you @Godernet and other staff

If there was a statement saying that the Otsutsuki who made the "current world" went through the process of evolution through the god trees and such, which require the universe, how would that change your viewpoint?

Because my whole issue is that all of this "he created the current universe" is literally impossible if the universe predates them.
Click to expand...
"Current" World implies previous worlds, so I don't think it would matter to be completely honest.

The idea that it would be impossible for an Otsutsuki God to predate the current Universe hinges on believing it to be a fact that the current universe has remained completely unaltered for its entire existence and/or is the only universe that has ever existed in Naruto, which is pretty much unprovable from either perspective.

So yeah, that specific point doesn't really assist or disprove either stance on its own.
 
I have a few problems with this:


Godernet said:
Given what we know, to me, Ikemoto's intent with Shibai was to create a being of all-encompassing power (called a peerless existence within the story already) in the Naruto universe, something whose relevance extends beyond the Earth and more to the scale of the Otsutsuki themselves, planet-eating, basically Demi-God Aliens who operate across the entire universe. (It's pretty common for Authors when trying to make an infallible being to grant them jurisdiction over everything the main cast can fathom/directly interact with)
Click to expand...
This makes sense, but IMO is ultimately a weak argument if you're arguing for something as specific as Low 2-C in the absence of some very key pieces of information.
Godernet said:
Which is pretty consistent with Shibai's ascension to a higher Dimension, Divine abilities that have already been stated or implied to have tier 2 range (Senringan and Prescience), with Omnipotence being the one that surpasses them all, quite literally being called the "Shinjutsu of Shinjutsu" or "Divine Ability of Divine Abilities"
Click to expand...
Okay, one small problem. Senrigan does not have "Tier 2 range" at all. I just checked, not only is it not accepted anywhere here, but the fact is that it CAN'T have Tier 2 range at all. Interdimensional sight doesn't grant you Tier 2 range on its own, and the ability to see in the past doesn't either especially since it's not seeing into the infinite past (which would be Low 2-C) but instead only up until her own birth, so yeah this isn't Tier 2 range. Also, this would give literally anyone who can time travel Tier 2 range/hax, I don't think we can grant something like this. As for Prescience, seeing 'all possible futures' (ones that are, as we know, not even actualized) is really not a strong argument for Tier 2 range either. I can "see" 10 different future right now, as I'm typing this, about what can possibly happen in the next 18 hours with me, that doesn't grant me Tier 2 range especially since this was just in context to the fight with Naruto and Isshiki. Still, the main point I'm trying to make here is that these abilities are different, and just because Omnipotence predates/preceeds them doesn't mean that the creation ability of Omnipotence also has Low 2-C range/potency.
Godernet said:
.

Also, Shinjutsu's direct statements of being the programming language for the reality of the Otsutsuki Gods. And the fact that Earth as a planet is so insignificant to the Otsutsuki that it was allowed to exist for thousands of years as the current Otsutsuki travelled across the universe in search of planets to absorb, and wasn't even a place of significance to them until it eventually became their target many millennia later.
Click to expand...
Sure, but you do realize that Otsutsuki still existed on a planet within the universe right? And that this whole "there's another universe where another God originated from who created this universe we're talking about now" is purely conjecture, theory-crafting made solely to try and make some sense of this extremely hyperbolic, nebulous and vague statement right?
Godernet said:
And as I've stated in my previous comment, Momoshiki's "How many times do you think Humanity has had its memories manipulated", doesn't strike me as a comment saying that an Otsutsuki God went to Earth and messed with humanity specifically; that doesn't really make sense with the rest of Otsutsuki lore.
Click to expand...
It doesn't, and yet here we are. The statement says exactly that. Now what?
Godernet said:
Considering his very last statement prior to that was how Omnipotence essentially allows you to manipulate the building blocks of Reality, it seems more like Momoshiki was just trying to appeal to Boruto's sense of scale.
Click to expand...
I have a problem with this argument being used again and again. Let me give an example, we accept that most fictional verses are made of atoms. At some point a lot of them even outright say it. And of course, a lot of fictional works also have characters that are explicitly capable of atomic manipulation. Does that now grant them Low 2-C range or potency in their abilities and/or hax, purely because they can manipulate the 'building blocks' of reality? I hope your answer is that it doesn't, because that's fundamentally what's being argued here.
Godernet said:
More straightforwardly: "This ability can affect reality itself; think of all the ways humanity has likely been affected by this in the past."

I don't think Sekai, in this context, being one individual planet, makes sense here, given the scope the Otsutsuki generally operate, the scale of these other Shinjutsu being all encompassing on a Universal scale, and Shibai's status as a "peerless higher dimensional being", with Omnipotence being the ultimate Shinjutsu of said peerless being.
Click to expand...
Well as I have just stated, other Shinjutsu really aren't on that scale either. At least one of them clearly isn't and even if they were, they're different abilities (Omnipotence isn't creation, but just something that it's capable of among other things) and it's not a good argument to say that they all have the same range without strong evidence.
Godernet said:
And while I do think I understand where some fellow staff are coming from, wanting a statement that directly says "an Otsutsuki God created the current Naruto universe with Omnipotence.", but I believe we already have been given enough from the lore to come to a conclusion.

At worse I can see a Possibly Low 2-C if other staff have a similar concern over very specific verbiage or lack thereof, as KT and Damage do.
Click to expand...
I personally still am of the opinion that this should be left untiered until we have better information in the near or distant future instead of half-assing it this way IMO just because we're unnecessarily forcing ourselves to accept the highest possible interpretation of some terms that, if I'm being honest, are pretty vague and up-to-interpretation of the reader.
 
Godernet said:
"Current" World implies previous worlds, so I don't think it would matter to be completely honest.

The idea that it would be impossible for an Otsutsuki God to predate the current Universe hinges on believing it to be a fact that the current universe has remained completely unaltered for its entire existence and/or is the only universe that has ever existed in Naruto, which is pretty much unprovable from either perspective.

So yeah, that specific point doesn't really assist or disprove either stance on its own.
Click to expand...
just asking


is the universal tier based on assumptions? because I haven't seen a direct confirmation shibai did infact create or predate the universe itself
 
Live footage of Ikemoto describing Shibai as a "higher dimensional God" that was said to have created the world with an ability that can "make anything and everything real" just for it all to be wrong because uhhhh a Naruto databook was once hyperbolic or something:
laughing.gif
 
KingTempest said:
I have a question for you @Godernet and other staff

If there was a statement saying that the Otsutsuki who made the "current world" went through the process of evolution through the god trees and such, which require the universe, how would that change your viewpoint?

Because my whole issue is that all of this "he created the current universe" is literally impossible if the universe predates them.
Click to expand...
I hope you know that they can be multiple universes created .. and the current universe can just be just that.. the current universe.. the very word it self inherently implies the existence of a previously universe.. Saying the universe predates them is not a counter statement because other universes can be way older than the current.. and the clan can be an ancient clan that existed in previous universe long before the creation of the this current one.. Like I don’t understand how this is an issue at all.. Similarly to how the Samurai 8 universe was created by fudomyo yet he came from another one.
 
Godernet said:
"Current" World implies previous worlds, so I don't think it would matter to be completely honest.

The idea that it would be impossible for an Otsutsuki God to predate the current Universe hinges on believing it to be a fact that the current universe has remained completely unaltered for its entire existence and/or is the only universe that has ever existed in Naruto, which is pretty much unprovable from either perspective.

.But yeah, that specific point doesn't really assist or disprove either stance.
Click to expand...
I don't know if it implies previous worlds as in previous universes or previous updates of the current world, same way Boruto says that he has technology that doesn't exist in his "world" yet, he's not saying he has tech that's in another universe that he's just now getting.

It's a leap in logic to use that flimsy statement to imply multiverses
 
I truly hope yall don't try to say Shibai was the one who did it because if he did then how did his body get into this dimension
 
1. God made the world
2. Otsutsuki wanna achieve godhood
3. They do so by eating chakra fruits
4. Shibai achieved this
5. Shibai scales to God
Whether this God is even related to Otsutsuki is frankly inconsequential. But even if the original God was once an Otsutsuki, that still isn't contradicted by anything in the source material because the origins of Otsutsuki have never been revealed. For all we know, they could be from a universe that predates the main one. Point is this is a complete non issue.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
different universes do exist in naruto.
Click to expand...
Do we have a mention of parallel universes? I seem to have missed that, I was under the impression that Prescience merely talks about possible futures, not ones that actually exist. Or are you referring to something else
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
different universes do exist in naruto.
Click to expand...
different dimensions* (I know it's semantics but bare with me)
we know of the different dimensions conjured up by the otsutsuki and such but to say that there's an entire 93 billion light year long universe that they were chilling in prior, or a pre-verse ig, is another assumption
 
@Shadow7001 Why are you engaging in a Naruto/Boruto thread when you clearly don't know even the most basic information about the verse? No offense but other spacetimes have existed since end of Shippuden. Doubting their status is one thing, not knowing they exist is honesty baffling.
 
KingTempest said:
different dimensions* (I know it's semantics but bare with me)
we know of the different dimensions conjured up by the otsutsuki and such but to say that there's an entire 93 billion light year long universe that they were chilling in prior, or a pre-verse ig, is another assumption
Click to expand...
I think he might be referring to Road to Ninja movie universe stuff which, I mean I guess is an argument but that leads into canonicity debates which is a can of worms you absolutely don't wanna open in this thread. That is if he's talking about something other than Prescience here
 
HelloThere1089 said:
@Shadow7001 Why are you engaging in a Naruto/Boruto thread when you clearly don't know even the most basic information about the verse? No offense but other spacetimes have existed since end of Shippuden. Doubting their status is one thing, not knowing they exist is honesty baffling.
Click to expand...
Uh, no. Random, untiered space-times and full-blown universes are different things. And contrary to what you said, I am fairly well-verses in Naruto and Boruto as far except for the most recent chapters in TBV since I had lost interest but started reading them recently.
 
HelloThere1089 said:
Whether this God is even related to Otsutsuki is frankly inconsequential. But even if the original God was once an Otsutsuki, that still isn't contradicted by anything in the source material because the origins of Otsutsuki have never been revealed. For all we know, they could be from a universe that predates the main one. Point is this is a complete non issue.
Click to expand...
#1 It's stated to be an Otsutsuki God.
#2 The otsutsuki are blatantly stated to come from another planet.
HelloThere1089 said:
@Shadow7001 Why are you engaging in a Naruto/Boruto thread when you clearly don't know even the most basic information about the verse? No offense but other spacetimes have existed since end of Shippuden. Doubting their status is one thing, not knowing they exist is honesty baffling.
Click to expand...
#1 People do this all the time, I see people in this thread who do it all the time
#2 People usually don't correlate different dimensions with different universes so it's not solely a matter of naruto knowledge it's a matter of terminology
Shadow7001 said:
I think he might be referring to Road to Ninja movie universe stuff which, I mean I guess is an argument but that leads into canonicity debates which is a can of worms you absolutely don't wanna open in this thread. That is if he's talking about something other than Prescience here
Click to expand...
Nah it's something else
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Richardo908
Boruto verse ability addition part one
Replies
16
Views
1K
Kayzz
Shi4njutsu
  • Locked
Old Tier up to Universe level+ with Omnipotence (Shibai&OHTSUTSUKI GODS)
2 3
Replies
113
Views
19K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Celest_Void
  • Locked
Isshiki should not be 4-B
Replies
38
Views
3K
Damage3245
Damage3245
Kantostaria
  • Locked
Universal+ shibai
Replies
25
Views
4K
Kantostaria
Kantostaria
Xdsagecat
It's the Ōtsutsuki clan crt. Come inside, it's fun inside!
2
Replies
67
Views
4K
Xdsagecat
Xdsagecat
Back
Top