Shibai Otsutsuki Universal+ Removel

[Exoko]

Once a side gets the required amount of votes threads go into grace.

You can’t force more of them to participate. That’s just how the system goes.

I believe the vote difference thing is only for vs threads but I could be wrong.

Handling Disagreements​

If a disagreement arises between staff members during the evaluation of a content revision thread, it is important to seek the input and guidance of additional staff members in order to reach a fair and unbiased decision. This may involve seeking the opinion of higher-ranked staff members, or consulting with staff members who possess specific expertise or knowledge related to the revision in question. The final decision on the approval of a content revision should be based on a thorough and unbiased evaluation of the suggested changes and their impact on a verse.

• It is important to remember that all staff members, regardless of their rank, have a responsibility to act in the best interests of each verse by prioritizing accuracy and quality above personal preferences or biases. Staff members should strive to approach the evaluation of content revision threads with an open mind and a willingness to consider the perspectives of others.
  • Ultimately, the final decision regarding the approval of a content revision should be based on a thorough and unbiased evaluation of the suggested changes and their impact on each verse, rather than on the rank or status of the staff members involved.
• Although the evaluation of each staff member carries equal weight, the final decision regarding the approval of a content revision may be influenced by other factors such as the expertise and knowledge of the staff members involved, the complexity and controversy of the revision, and the popularity or prominence of the affected series verse. In terms of decision-making authority, bureaucrats are given the highest consideration, followed by administrators, and then thread moderators.
  • Additionally, it is worth mentioning that Bureaucrats primarily have a lot of authority when it comes to major wiki policy changes, rather than regular content revision threads. Their authority in this regard may be restricted to specific areas.
• If staff don't unanimously agree on a thread's validity, all parties involved should work in good faith towards a respectable conclusion, based on a variety of factors such as the vote difference, age of the thread, and likelihood of other staff coming along to evaluate it, coming to a compromise or seeking more input if necessary.

Btw has an Admin voted here? Anything Tier 2 related requires at least 1 Admin vote in addition to the others to pass

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Btw has an Admin voted here? Anything Tier 2 related requires at least 1 Admin vote in addition to the others to pass

Damage3245 is an admin.

 

[Nierre]

yeah this should be closed

but what's the verdict? removing the justification and rating all together?

 

[Godernet]

Currently, there's no real consensus.

KT, Damage, and Viet agree with removing Low 2-C Omnipotence.

You and I disagree with the OP.

I did want to make another post going over some of the contentions people have been having with some stuff I had translated, and following a lengthy conversation I had with KT on the topic yesterday.

At the very least, it seems a majority of the people who disagree with the L2C Omnipotence are doing so via KT's argument and disagree with the arguments presented in the OP, including KT himself, at least based on what he said earlier in the thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

For what its worth, @Shadowbokunohero also disagreed with the downgrade and made arguments against this from what I've seen.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

For what it’s worth, @Shadowbokunohero also disagreed with the downgrade and made arguments against this from what I've seen.

Content Moderators don’t have thread evaluation rights.

 

[KingTempest]

To be so deadass.

14 pages with spread out arguments is ridiculous. A lot of people here are dishonest on both sides and a lot have arguments that are blatantly not being represented well.
I don't intend to make another thread but I will if no one else will honestly represent both sides.
On top of that, I don't intend to make it staff only too since there's a lot of users who are intelligent with their arguments, but with the way this thread goes it'll have a strict "say irrelevant things and your message will be deleted and if it's a trend it'll be staff only" theme.

This thread had good intentions but like... everybody fumbled, heavily me included especially for dragging out arguments with ill intentioned and good intentioned individuals.

@Damage3245, @Vietthai96, @Nierre, @Godernet, and I consider @Shadowbokunohero as important as all of them, with your permission and your expertise, is this thread worth salvaging or should another thread be made. And with that in mind, do you all trust it to be available to the public, staff only, or public with restrictions like I proposed? Because all 6 of us know how HST threads with any minor disagreement get. We've had members with accounts made this week repeating the same 6 points over and over and it's literally just counterproductive.

 

[Godernet]

IMO anything as controversial as a revision of Tier 2 for a popular verse should be handled with the same care that the initial CRT put into bringing about the currently accepted stuff, whether it’s an upgrade or a downgrade.

With the way this thread is now, pretty much all of the main arguments holding the proposal are scattered throughout the comments, sandwiched between a lot of comments from people who don’t seem to understand why it was accepted in the first place or don’t have the context of these statements.

Outside of my opinion on Tier 2 Omnipotence itself, this is a topic that is very heavily reliant on lore and narrative interpretation (so much so that KT and I, despite having opposite opinions on it, pretty much talked about it for a good chunk of yesterday and both acknowledged some of the points being made on both sides)

But yeah, I feel like this thread is a mess and at the very least beyond saving for less knowledgeable on Naruto Staff to be able to pop in and understand the situation without reading all 14 pages.

If a CRT is being made on this, I feel like it should be an analysis thread on everything we know about the Otsutsuki Gods, the Otsutsuki, Omnipotence, and Shinjutsu to figure out which interpretation makes more sense, or if both interpretations are equally possible, and we gotta compromise.

As for whether it should be staff only or not, I’m not really feeling too strongly either way, but I do feel like some on both sides made good points. On the other hand, I’m all for a method that stops the back and forth toxicity that got some people on RvR and made it this messy in the first place.

If a public thread with restrictions can accomplish that, then I’m all for it.

 

[KingogKings777]

Currently, there's no real consensus.

KT, Damage, and Viet agree with removing Low 2-C Omnipotence.

You and I disagree with the OP.

I did want to make another post going over some of the contentions people have been having with some stuff I had translated, and following a lengthy conversation I had with KT on the topic yesterday.

At the very least, it seems a majority of the people who disagree with the L2C Omnipotence are doing so via KT's argument and disagree with the arguments presented in the OP, including KT himself, at least based on what he said earlier in the thread.

I will say having a new thread but more cohereant would be peak

 

[ichimojii]

To be so deadass.

14 pages with spread out arguments is ridiculous. A lot of people here are dishonest on both sides and a lot have arguments that are blatantly not being represented well.
I don't intend to make another thread but I will if no one else will honestly represent both sides.
On top of that, I don't intend to make it staff only too since there's a lot of users who are intelligent with their arguments, but with the way this thread goes it'll have a strict "say irrelevant things and your message will be deleted and if it's a trend it'll be staff only" theme.

This thread had good intentions but like... everybody fumbled, heavily me included especially for dragging out arguments with ill intentioned and good intentioned individuals.

@Damage3245, @Vietthai96, @Nierre, @Godernet, and I consider @Shadowbokunohero as important as all of them, with your permission and your expertise, is this thread worth salvaging or should another thread be made. And with that in mind, do you all trust it to be available to the public, staff only, or public with restrictions like I proposed? Because all 6 of us know how HST threads with any minor disagreement get. We've had members with accounts made this week repeating the same 6 points over and over and it's literally just counterproductive.

Okay ill hand it over to you. I guess I rushed things a bit

 

[KingTempest]

Okay ill hand it over to you. I guess I rushed things a bit

You’re fine don’t worry

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, i think a new thread is needed too

 

[SlendVeny]

I'm sending Arc after you. He will locate your household and turn your city block into pure rubble.

City Blocks? You'd need a Bijuu Bomb to destroy one of those.

 

[Robo432343]

Especially considering one recent thread regarding new “standards” for higher dimensionality, yea universal+ for Naruto/Boruto feels like NLF based off arbitrary character statements.

i want to agree with this thread but oh my god
that thread is FOR LOW 1-C AND HIGHER
anyway this thread should be closed and a new one should be made

 

[Dragopentling]

i want to agree with this thread but oh my god
that thread is FOR LOW 1-C AND HIGHER
anyway this thread should be closed and a new one should be made

Doesn’t matter cause qualifications for 4D or higher in general have drastically changed.

 

[Robo432343]

Doesn’t matter cause qualifications for 4D or higher in general have drastically changed.

No, not recently. Maybe try to tackle the scans that actually argue 4D Shibai instead of saying, "Yeah nah this feels very NLF "

 

[Dragopentling]

No, not recently. Maybe try to tackle the scans that actually argue 4D Shibai instead of saying, "Yeah nah this feels very NLF "

???
I’ve been reading the manga, but sure…

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Snip

Yeah, while I disagree with the thread, I 100% agree that this needs to be redone and be in a much better comprehensive manner.

 

[ichimojii]

Okay first of all, we don't know if it takes "prep". Kaguya pooped out ETSO pretty causally and Kakashi was worried it'll end the fight before his DMS runs out.

She made a tso then enhanced the size with IT chakra using her root world to gather energy. She has to already have done IT on the populace and then gather their energy.

Second of all, the point is that Momoshiki hypes up the creation as some unfathomable godly feat as an example of why Omnipotence is the ultimate ability. So the idea that it just does something both him and Kaguya could already do is absurd based on that. Not based on their physical stats.

Characters hype up things all the time Amado stated the power to bring back the dead is a power only allowed to the otsusuki. Meanwhile in the naruto their where already jutsu like rinni tensei and kisho tensei that can bring back the dead. He hypes up omnipotence having reality warping when COAT was also reality warping it could even do things like rewrite their death. Momoshiki isn't aware of all ninjustu just shinjutsu

True however Boruto alone states Uzuhiko has no limit. Meaning it's clearly not limited to just 5B energy.

And when Boruto doesn't overcharge Uzuhiko it generally doesn't do much. It fails to hurt Code, it fails to hurt Jura, and it's implied to not be enough for Hidari. So Boruto needs to tap info this limitless charge potentially for it to actually be physically dangerous and without that it's only dangerous due to the disorienting hax.

Amado doesn't hype up the storms themselves. He hypes up the way he's creating them.
He's not saying Shibai was a godly being because he can cause storms but because he can cause them with just a roar or a wave og a hand, unlike shinobi which need complex ninjutsu for it.

Your proving my point it's not just the storms he made it's the fact he could do it so easily. Omnipotence can be power that can almost instantly manipulate or create a planet and that would still be considered a godly feat. Theirs no one Naruto we know so far that can casual blow up or create a planet

Basically the reason it's impressive is not that it's a storm but the fact that he does it as casually as a human raises their hand.

 

[DavidTPPM]

This is still up? Damn man

She made a tso then enhanced the size with IT chakra using her root world to gather energy. She has to already have done IT on the populace and then gather their energy.

Sure that's the current interpretation. Still the chakra she put into her ETSO was such a small portion of her overall chakra she didn't show any signs of fatigue whatsoever. And the boost from the IT wasn't even enough to blitz Naruto, Kakashi, or Sasuke.

And that's 4-B destruction AND creation. Meanwhile the thing Momoshiki was glazing to heavens and above is what you're claiming is 5-B creation alone.

Characters hype up things all the time Amado stated the power to bring back the dead is a power only allowed to the otsusuki. Meanwhile in the naruto their where already jutsu like rinni tensei and kisho tensei that can bring back the dead.

Ichi with all due respect, you DO realize "rinne tensei" is an ability of the RINNEGAN which is an OTSUTSUKI ability that humans just inherited right? And even then they can only do so while sacrificing their own life.

Same with kisho tensei. It doesn't really bring back the dead, it sacrifices one life for another.

He hypes up omnipotence having reality warping when COAT was also reality warping

Yeah except omnipotence is IM2 reality warping on a universal scale and CoAT just shapes already existing matter and energy.

You're being purposely misleading by oversimplifying the statements. It's like if I said "Itachi hypes up amaterasus flames when fireball jutsu already produces flames".

it could even do things like rewrite their death. Momoshiki isn't aware of all ninjustu just shinjutsu

Momoshiki is literally stated to have knowledge on all shinjutsu. Momoshiki also personally created a dimension containing at least a planet and traveled the dimensions Kaguya created, so the idea he's just not aware fodders can create planets is just objectively incorrect.

Your proving my point it's just the storms he he could do it so easily.

Again you're being purposely misleading by oversimplifying things.
It's not the sheer simplicity that's impressive. It's the exact mechanism.

What's impressive is that while humans need to form handsigns and learn complex ninjutsu to create something like a storm, Shibai could do it with just a wave of his hand. The lack of handsigns and specifically designed ninjutsu is what's impressive.

Imagine I told you someone can build a PC just by waving a hand. You wouldn't think it's impressive because of the power or the capability of creating a PC, those are very easy things. You'd think it's impressive because he doesn't require the actual complex process regular people would need.

Omnipotence can be power that can almost instantly manipulate or create a planet and that would still be considered a godly feat.

No it wouldn't. It'd actually be hilariously fodder given what Omnipotence actually does.
Omnipotence rewrites the programming language of the universe. Imagine that in actual practice. Imagine I tell you I can open a door in Minecraft by rewriting the game files. That'd be laughably inefficient and it'd honestly be ridiculous that that's the most I can do with something as broken as control over the game files. You'd absolutely expect someone who controls the very programming of the game to be able to create entirely new universes within it.

Also this argument, as bad as it already is, completely falls apart when you try to look at this from a readers approach rathe than making headcanon hypothesis about what Momoshiki thinks. WE as a reader consider moon, planet, and even star creation as something completely within the power of regular Otsutsuki. So to us the readers stating an Otsutsuki can create planets is absolutely not impressive.

Theirs no one Naruto we know so far that can casual blow up or create a planet

Huh? The entire plot of Naruto The Last was that Toneri is going to both destroy and recreate the entire planet earth. Like that was THE main threat of the antagonist.

And the main purpose of the ETSO which again Kaguya created very casually was to both destroy and recreate the entire solar system sized dimension.

Like I'm sorry but you're just objectively incorrect. What you're saying nobody can do are things we had entire plot points revolve around.

 

[ichimojii]

This is still up? Damn man

Sure that's the current interpretation. Still the chakra she put into her ETSO was such a small portion of her overall chakra she didn't show any signs of fatigue whatsoever. And the boost from the IT wasn't even enough to blitz Naruto, Kakashi, or Sasuke.

The opposite is true. ETSO is stated to be shinobi chakra in the databooks and manga . It's even stated she needed shinobi chakra to resurrect. She also used shinobi chakra to recharge her chakra.

And that's 4-B destruction AND creation. Meanwhile the thing Momoshiki was glazing to heavens and above is what you're claiming is 5-B creation alone.

Momoshiki is the same guy who thought that Naruto and sasuke were inferior to him. Yet he ended up getting put down by them. Momoshiki often glazes himself and his clan It's no surprise

Ichi with all due respect, you DO realize "rinne tensei" is an ability of the RINNEGAN which is an OTSUTSUKI ability that humans just inherited right? And even then they can only do so while sacrificing their own life.

Obito used and didn't die from it. It's listed as a ninjutsu not a shinjutsu

Same with kisho tensei. It doesn't really bring back the dead, it sacrifices one life for another.

So what my point is Amado thinks life and death manipulation is a power reserved for Gods meanwhile you have powers like edo tensei which brought back dozens of people

Yeah except omnipotence is IM2 reality warping on a universal scale and CoAT just shapes already existing matter and energy.

No it doesn't COAT can turn events into a dream it can do more then just matter and energy manipulation. Meanwhile omnipotence hasnt shown anything beyond mind manipulation.

You're being purposely misleading by oversimplifying the statements. It's like if I said "Itachi hypes up amaterasus flames when fireball jutsu already produces flames".

Momoshiki is literally stated to have knowledge on all shinjutsu. Momoshiki also personally created a dimension containing at least a planet and traveled the dimensions Kaguya created, so the idea he's just not aware fodders can create planets is just objectively incorrect.

Momoshiki making a dimension is debatable imo since his planet had a god tree on it and humans. It was a planet he was eating. Momoshiki isn't aware of kaguya's power post chakra fruit theirs no evidence of that.

Again you're being purposely misleading by oversimplifying things.
It's not the sheer simplicity that's impressive. It's the exact mechanism.

What's impressive is that while humans need to form handsigns and learn complex ninjutsu to create something like a storm, Shibai could do it with just a wave of his hand. The lack of handsigns and specifically designed ninjutsu is what's impressive.

The 10 tails made a storm just by yelling

Imagine I told you someone can build a PC just by waving a hand. You wouldn't think it's impressive because of the power or the capability of creating a PC, those are very easy things. You'd think it's impressive because he doesn't require the actual complex process regular people would need.

This is a false equivalence we see people use ninjustu with no hand signs even the ones that use hand signs only have a a second delay due to having to gather chakra. Meanwhile making PC takes much longer

No it wouldn't. It'd actually be hilariously fodder given what Omnipotence actually does.
Omnipotence rewrites the programming language of the universe. Imagine that in actual practice. Imagine I tell you I can open a door in Minecraft by rewriting the game files. That'd be laughably inefficient and it'd honestly be ridiculous that that's the most I can do with something as broken as control over the game files. You'd absolutely expect someone who controls the very programming of the game to be able to create entirely new universes within it.

Imagine you could create a new door out of nothing without going into the files. That's COAT creating from nothing. While Omnipotence is controlling already existing information.

Also this argument, as bad as it already is, completely falls apart when you try to look at this from a readers approach rathe than making headcanon hypothesis about what Momoshiki thinks. WE as a reader consider moon, planet, and even star creation as something completely within the power of regular Otsutsuki. So to us the readers stating an Otsutsuki can create planets is absolutely not impressive.

Like I said earlier writers repackage and hype up older feats and abilites all the time. In the naruto databook they hype up light speed for haku and itachi for light speed. Later on it keeps hyping up light speed even for god tiers like madara. Omnipotence is hyped from manifesting your will. COAT already does this. Momoshiki hyped Omnipotence for changing memories when sasuke already did this with basic sharingan.

Huh? The entire plot of Naruto The Last was that Toneri is going to both destroy and recreate the entire planet earth. Like that was THE main threat of the antagonist.

Surface wipe you mean? Wasn't it stated the moon was being ripped apart by earth's GBE meaning tonerI couldn't move the moon fast enough to overcome planet level GBE. This still wasn't a casual feat toneri still had to use the moon.

And the main purpose of the ETSO which again Kaguya created very casually was to both destroy and recreate the entire solar system sized dimension.

Again it's not a casual feat at all. It grows over overtime by accumulating chakra

Like I'm sorry but you're just objectively incorrect. What you're saying nobody can do are things we had entire plot points revolve around.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The opposite is true. ETSO is stated to be shinobi chakra in the databooks and manga . It's even stated she needed shinobi chakra to resurrect. She also used shinobi chakra to recharge her chakra.

Yeah which makes it even worse for you because shinobi alliance chakra is nothing to a single Juubis chakra. Even an incomplete Juubi dwarfed the entire shinobi world.

So pointing out how it's the shinobi chakra actually just highlights how absurd it'd be for Momoshiki to consider this impressive.

Momoshiki is the same guy who thought that Naruto and sasuke were inferior to him. Yet he ended up getting put down by them.

Mom being egotistical doesn't make him an unreliable source of information.

Especially from a story writing perspective, Momoshiki is blatantly being used as a way to relay information to the reader. We even see the database confirms everything he says.

Momoshiki often glazes himself and his clan It's no surprise

I just want you to think about this.
Your argument is that Momoshiki is EGOISTIC and glazes himself above others.
And somehow that makes him glaze Shibai ABOVE HIMSELF?

That logic really does not follow. If Momoshiki is such an egomaniac that he glazes himself over people superior to him, him hyping up Shibai should be an even bigger testament to his superiority.

Obito used and didn't die from it.

Again did you not read the manga? Obito was kept alive by Zetsu. Without Zetsu Obito was going to die

It's listed as a ninjutsu not a shinjutsu

So? So are all of Kaguyas abilities in the databook.

So what my point is Amado thinks life and death manipulation is a power reserved for Gods meanwhile you have powers like edo tensei which brought back dozens of people

Again edo tensei doesn't just resurrect you. You're very much still dead.
Edo tensei sacrifices a human life to force a soul to cling to a fake body.

Amado could bring Akebi back himself. But it wasn't truly her even if her body was 100% identical and she had all of Akebis memories. If he doesn't consider that enough I think it's pretty clear why edo tensei wouldn't either.

No it doesn't COAT can turn events into a dream it can do more then just matter and energy manipulation.

Izanagi ≠ CoAT. Izanagi is a practical application of CoAT that works under specific circumstances, those being sacrificing a sharingan. Without sacrificing a sharingan all of its applications have been just straight up matter/energy manipulation.
Hagoromo splitting the Juubi.
Naruto healing Guy.
And Naruto healing Obito.
Nothing past just reshaping already existing things.

It's like saying that since rasen shuriken has cellular attacks any wind style has cellular attacks.

Meanwhile omnipotence hasnt shown anything beyond mind manipulation.

The very basis behind this thread is the statement that it can create worlds and turn anything real. Saying it didn't do something is very silly in this context.

Also no it's not just simple mind manipulation. It rewrote the very reality of people's minds to where even if you tell people the truth their minds will be forced to forget it. Momoshiki literally verbatim says it's not like a genjutsu.

Momoshiki making a dimension is debatable imo since his planet had a god tree on it and humans. It was a planet he was eating.

The novel which is accepted as tertiary canon directly says he created it as far as I'm aware.

Momoshiki isn't aware of kaguya's power post chakra fruit theirs no evidence of that.

Momo literally traveled to Kaguya's dimensions in search of her.
And he knows about Naruto and Sasukes power who have been said to have surpassed her, yet are clearly not God's or even close to that level.

The 10 tails mnade a storm just by yelling

Yes, ten tails, the being of pure nature energy which absorbs all of a planets information.

This is a false equivalence we see people use ninjustu with no hand signs even the ones that use hand signs only have a a second delay due to having to gather chakra.

No, you just didn't understand the point again…
Yes humans and Otsutsuki can perform ninjutsu without handsigns.

That's the core idea. PERFORM NINJUTSU. Ninjutsu are complex techniques that require chakra control, elemental transformation, and shape control. Handsigns simply aid the process

While normal shinobi have to undergo this complex process, Shibai just waves his hand or roars.

Meanwhile making PC takes much longer

I don’t see how this is relevant ngl.

Imagine you could create a new door out of nothing without going into the files. That's COAT creating from nothing.

Yes that would be extremely unimpressive.

While Omnipotence is controlling already existing information.

First of all, the very basis of this conversation is omnipotence's ability to CREATE a new world by controlling fundamental information. That alone goes against the idea of just controlling already existing information.

Second of all, so what if he did? Not only does that not actually mean anything, but CoAT would literally be part of the information omnipotence can manipulate.

Like I said earlier writers repackage and hype up older feats and abilites all the time. In the naruto databook they hype up light speed for haku and itachi for light speed. Later on it keeps hyping up light speed even for god tiers like madara. Omnipotence is hyped from manifesting your will. COAT already does this. Momoshiki hyped Omnipotence for changing memories when sasuke already did this with basic sharingan.

This doesn't even come close to addressing the argument.

First of all, all your examples are from databooks. That's a false equivalence, this is a manga statement. The difference is pretty big because while databooks are only additional material not important to the story, the Manga is the primary material and literally THE story.

Second of all, omnipotence isn't hyped just die manifesting your will. It's the degree to which it does so, that being the very fundamental information.

Surface wipe you mean?

Literally accepted as complete planet destruction not just surface wipe.

Wasn't it stated the moon was being ripped apart by earth's GBE meaning tonerI couldn't move the moon fast enough to overcome planet level GBE.

It was repeatedly said Toneri is going to destroy the planet itself and when he describes its recreation he says
"pick up the earth from its ashes"
Which further hammers in total destruction not just surface wipe.

This still wasn't a casual feat toneri still had to use the moon.

That doesn't make the feat but causal lmao. Toneri literally performs the feat passively while fighting Naruto

Again it's not a casual feat at all. It grows over overtime by accumulating chakra

Again that doesn't make the feat not casual. Kaguya was doing this passively using a fraction of her chakra while fighting.

 

[rogueprestonian]

Can a mod just close this thread or sumn? The OP has been clearly debunked because not on only is the CRT barebones without evidence but also their points actively contradict the storytelling and those with solid arguments like KingTempest(Even if i disagree) would be better off with creating a new thread of their own.

We devolved from talking about Shibai should get Low 2-C to OP arguing that Toneri’s moon toss and recreation is only going to affect the surface which doesn’t make sense whether we apply physics or follow the storytelling.

Please just close this mess, for those with an actual agreement, you guys can create a new CRT and thread that is actually on focus for the topic. This didn’t need to be 14 pages.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah this is ridiculous